Dual SVS PB16 Ultra vs. Dual JTR Captivator 2400 in 2300 cubic foot room - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Honestly, how often do sub 16 hz frequencies occur in movies and music? Isn't it true that most low frequency output in movies and music occurs in the 16hz and above range?

Does the ultra low frequency extension we are discussing here really have true merit?

For what it's worth the couches and everything vibrate quite a lot on this suspended second floor. I honestly feel there is more tactile feedback than Adam's dual Cap 2400 ULF I demoed, but his subs are setup on concrete slab in a large open concept space. They are about 90% the tactile feel of Charles' 3x sealed SI 24" drivers which is around the same sized room as mine, but with a concrete slab.

And also, I have no issues at all packing these guys up and sending them back using the Shoulder Dolly I bought and another able body.

I'm just wondering if it's really warranted.
With BEQ, every time you watch a movie!

Fwiw, I said the same thing for years with my PSA 15v's that have a 18hz tune and are reference capable down to 16hz. Then I decided to take a leap of faith and order a low tuned JTR sub...I instantly noticed a difference in presentation and depth. That is without BEQ as well!! Now with everyday material(cable TV) I don't notice a night and day difference and even if I turn the JTR off on movie night I don't think my PSA subs are seriously lacking but the JTR definitely adds to the experience. I had auditioned a v1801 a couple years back and ended up returning it...not because it was bad, it was actually pretty good but it was more of a case of diminishing returns and didn't really add anything different then what I already had, just more of it. The JTR I am keeping because it fills in the lower frequencies and rounds out my system perfectly. I know I have posted max out sweeps and videos of scenes at pretty high levels but in all honesty I don't normally listen that loud. Most of my movie watching is between -10 to -15 and the JTR still adds to the experience. Music I tend to crank LOUD in short sessions on occasion. Not sure if this helps or muddy's the waters, but I do think there are benefits to going low tuned subs or adding one to your existing setup.
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post #32 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Honestly, how often do sub 16 hz frequencies occur in movies and music? Isn't it true that most low frequency output in movies and music occurs in the 16hz and above range?

Does the ultra low frequency extension we are discussing here really have true merit?

For what it's worth the couches and everything vibrate quite a lot on this suspended second floor. I honestly feel there is more tactile feedback than Adam's dual Cap 2400 ULF I demoed, but his subs are setup on concrete slab in a large open concept space. They are about 90% the tactile feel of Charles' 3x sealed SI 24" drivers which is around the same sized room as mine, but with a concrete slab.

And also, I have no issues at all packing these guys up and sending them back using the Shoulder Dolly I bought and another able body.

I'm just wondering if it's really warranted.
I came from dual PB3000s which were capable of 108ish db at 16hz in my room. There was some room shake but I didn't sense any pressurization or anything. Honestly it wasn't worth much to me compared to the 25-35 range. Then I got the 16s and found once I hit 115db or so in the mid teens there was a presence in the room with waves of sound and it was good, very good. For me I had to hit a threshhold of volume before those ultra low frequencies became worth anything to me. If you aren't hitting that minimum threshhold that your room dictates for <20hz output then its sort of worthless I think and you may as well focus on >20.

Granted I'm on concrete and in a huge room and you are on a wood floor so it probably takes less for you to get slam from that ultra low content. The 16Us should be able to shake your teeth loose in a 2300 cu ft room with wood floors.

As for ULF content, Hit up the BEQ thread and never look back, follow less then 10 steps and you will get 1000s of movies EQd flat to into the single digits. Just need a mini dsp. Its fantastic and required stuff if you have great subs. Especially if you have crowsons.

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post #33 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Honestly, how often do sub 16 hz frequencies occur in movies and music? Isn't it true that most low frequency output in movies and music occurs in the 16hz and above range?

Does the ultra low frequency extension we are discussing here really have true merit?

For what it's worth the couches and everything vibrate quite a lot on this suspended second floor. I honestly feel there is more tactile feedback than Adam's dual Cap 2400 ULF I demoed, but his subs are setup on concrete slab in a large open concept space. They are about 90% the tactile feel of Charles' 3x sealed SI 24" drivers which is around the same sized room as mine, but with a concrete slab.

And also, I have no issues at all packing these guys up and sending them back using the Shoulder Dolly I bought and another able body.

I'm just wondering if it's really warranted.

I think that the questions you are asking are very difficult for someone else to answer for you. A lot depends on your own perceptions and preferences. There is certainly some movie content below 16Hz (little, to none at all, for music), although there is far more content above that frequency, but what do we perceive that is different as we go lower? And, how much difference will there be in the two subs?

In what some people call the critical octave for HT movies, of 36Hz to 18Hz, the PB16's will go head-to-head with the Cap 2400ULF's. I would personally extend that "critical" range down into the low to middle-teens, and the PB16's will still keep-up down to about 14Hz. After that, the Cap 2400's pull ahead, and they have quite an advantage at 10Hz.

But, what does that actually mean in a room? To start with, I think it depends a lot on the size of the room. In your 2300^3 room, you will be getting significant room gain (pressure vessel gain) starting around 25Hz or so. By the time you get into the low-teens, say around 12 or 13Hz, you might be getting +12 to +16dB of bass boost. That depends somewhat on the room construction. That's a lot of low to mid-teens bass for anybody.

In my opinion, however, the numbers still don't really tell us very much. That is because our ability to hear tonality in sound only extends down to about 18Hz. According to listening tests I have read, no one hears tonal quality below 16Hz. That means that a 14Hz sound and an 18Hz sound are going to sound exactly the same to most of us. The 14Hz sound will have to be louder for us to hear it, but if we can hear it, it still won't sound any lower in frequency than the 18Hz sound does.

We simply lose the ability to hear tonal quality at frequencies below about 18Hz, or below 16Hz, even for the hearing-gifted. For many of us, it might even be at 20Hz or higher. To be clear, I'm not saying that we may not be able to hear an 18Hz, or 16Hz, or 14Hz tone, if we used a tone generator, at high enough volume levels. But, all the tones from about 20Hz down would sound exactly the same to most of us.

What can we hear/feel with even lower frequencies than 16Hz then? If 10-14Hz sounds are acoustically indistinguishable from 16-18Hz sounds, what sensations are different? Well for one thing, we can feel differences in tactile sensations at very low-frequencies. We can probably feel strong thudding/rumbling sensations down into about the low to mid-teens, and below that we may feel more physical pressure against our bodies, and more of a wobbling/disorienting sensation. Some people may really like the latter sensations more, and some people may like the vibrational sensations more. But, they probably occur at different frequencies for most of us.

The suspended wood floor and the overall room construction are factors too. Most suspended wood floors, in smaller rooms, seem to resonate sympathetically at about 20Hz or just a little lower. I believe at a little below 20Hz is where you are likely to be feeling the most floor, couch, etc. vibration that you described. It isn't likely that producing even more volume at 10Hz would increase your floor vibrations, for instance, because that is probably below the resonant frequency of your suspended wood floor, or of the sheetrock walls in your room.

My personal take on this issue of the comparison between the two subs has two components. First, in a larger room (say over about 3,000^3 or 4000^3), where room gain won't be as much of a factor, or on a concrete floor, where the suspended wood floor won't resonate at about 20Hz or a little lower, I would recommend a pair of Cap 2400ULF's over a pair of PB16's. In fact, I have done that quite a bit, for quite a few people!

That is the first component: room size and room construction. The second component is personal preference and/or curiosity. I'm not talking about preference for aesthetics or features. Those things are entirely personal and go without saying. I'm talking about self-identification as a serious basshead who is chasing the lowest frequencies at the highest volumes he can (Chucky, are you there? ). Or, I'm talking about someone who really does want to experience the wobbling sensations I described earlier, or someone who is genuinely curious about the whole <12-14Hz thing. Again, you should already be getting a lot of room gain at 10-12Hz.

If you fit any of those descriptions, or have other reasons I have left out, then I agree with others who have advised you to buy a single Cap 2400ULF to test head-to-head with one of your PB16's. You should be able to tell a lot from a test like that, and you can always try the dual PB16's, at some point of that comparison test, if you just want to reassure yourself that the two PB16's really are enough. I think that nearly everyone gets to a point, finally, where enough really is enough. Others may continue to drag race, with their subs, as an important part of their hobby.

Personally if I were really curious, I wouldn't send the two PB16's back until I was sure that the Cap 2400ULF's were a better answer for me. But, I don't think I would hesitate to potentially incur a return shipping cost for a single Cap 2400ULF, if I really wanted to compare the two different subs in my room.

Regards,
Mike

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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 03-06-2020 at 05:01 PM.
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post #34 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
SB16 is nowhere close to PB16 when it comes to <40hz. PB16 has 14db more output then the SB16 at 16hz, 9 more db at 25hz. 5 more db at 31hz in extended mode. @imureh said in another thread that the sound signature of the 2400ULF and the PB16 is similar. Maybe he could elaborate.


Yes I have not heard the new JTR drivers but what I had said what when I listened to the pB16 it had the similar texture to the sound. It was thick and similar to the JTR. The driver also had great excursion and pounded hard. I would still give the edge to the JTR. I know SVS gets a lot of slack but the PB16 is a great sub and can go toe to toe with the top subs out there. Personally I would go with the JTR and get the low performance which is really a key ingredient for a full experience for HT. With BEQ as an option one can really take advantage of a LT sub. I was very impressed by the PB13 and even more so by the pb16. If there are other factors that are also important to you like looks and app etc then go for the svs but if you are looking for pure performance to the max then no one does it better than JTR.


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I asked SVS what the driver weight and xmax was and Ed Mullen answered within a few hours with the exact specifications -
The PB16-Ultra driver weighs about 63 pounds, the motor weighs about 56 pounds and Xmax is rated at 82 mm P-P (41 mm one-way).

My questions to Jeff are rarely answered and I've asked multiple times what the weight of the 18" driver is and never get a reply.

The Cap 2400 altogether weighs 148lbs while the SVS weighs 175lb and looks a lot nicer.

I suspect the driver on the SVS is heavier than the 18" JTR by over 20lbs.

The fact that the communication line on a sale is this poor really has me concerned with what I am going to get with JTR after sale support.

Yet the low extension and 2400 watt amp on the JTR is intriguing.
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post #35 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 04:46 PM
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Dual SVS PB16 Ultra vs. Dual JTR Captivator 2400 in 2300 cubic foot room

Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
I asked SVS what the driver weight and xmax was and Ed Mullen answered within a few hours with the exact specifications -
The PB16-Ultra driver weighs about 63 pounds, the motor weighs about 56 pounds and Xmax is rated at 82 mm P-P (41 mm one-way).

My questions to Jeff are rarely answered and I've asked multiple times what the weight of the 18" driver is and never get a reply.

The Cap 2400 altogether weighs 148lbs while the SVS weighs 175lb and looks a lot nicer.

I suspect the driver on the SVS is heavier than the 18" JTR by over 20lbs.

The fact that the communication line on a sale is this poor really has me concerned with what I am going to get with JTR after sale support.

Yet the low extension and 2400 watt amp on the JTR is intriguing.


That is exactly my point. If factors like top notch CS, looks, app etc are important to you then by all means stay with SVS. That driver is built like a tank, has great excursion and pounds hard. There is no shame here for liking SVS. It’s a total package for sure and as I said it is great performing sub. You are not settling for an inferior sub by any means. Don’t focus on amp ratings and driver weight etc but look at what each one is offering you and go with the one checks most boxes.


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Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
Receiver & Players: Denon X4400H, Oppo UDP-203, Roku Ultra. Apple TV, Minidsp 2X4 HD
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post #36 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
That is exactly my point. If factors like top notch CS, looks, app etc are important to you then by all means stay with SVS. That driver is built like a tank, has great excursion and pounds hard. There is no shame here for liking SVS. It’s a total package for sure and as I said it is great performing sub. You are not settling for an inferior sub by any means. Don’t focus on amp ratings and driver weight etc but look at what each one is offering you and go with the one checks most boxes.


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+1

While I do now have dual Rythmik FV18, my previous dual SVS PB13. Provided me with many years of great enjoyments, and did serve me very well.


Darth

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post #37 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 05:54 PM
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As @imureh and others have stated, if you're happy with the product, as well as the customer service aspect, then by all means enjoy those bad boys. Because I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that they were disappointed with the perfomance of the PB16s. But, if you are curious, and can afford the cost of returns, then it never hurts to satisfy your curiousity. That way you know for sure if you're missing something...or not. Only you can decide that for certain.

As for your concern over the weight differences between the two, you have to keep in mind that the SVS is a tad bit larger enclosure and is made with MDF. Whereas the JTR is constructed of Baltic Birch, which is a lighter material. Although, it's said to be stronger than MDF. Either way, they're both very well built and both have very excellent drivers, so whatever direction you decide to go, you need not worry about whether or not you're getting a quality product.

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post #38 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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@mthomas47 and others - Thanks for the great discussion. After another listen tonight, I feel like I am quite satisfied with this purchase. Now that may change in a few weeks though. I have until the beginning of April to ship these PB16's back.

I moved the subs around and this is the best I could come up with in REW measurements of dual subs. Is there anything I can do to even out the response in the 75hz+ range?

Post Audyssey settings which set the initial sub trim to -12:

Denon 4400 sub trim -7db
Denon 4400 MV - 40dB
Denon 4400 LPF for LFE - 120hz
SVS subs extended mode on each
SVS subs volume -15db on each

Dual PB16U REW measurement in 2300cf suspended floor room at above settings:
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post #39 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 08:36 PM
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I just read through this thread tonight and I have to say I enjoyed it. I came away with five take aways:

1. Wow! There are a lot of really good subwoofers out there right now from companies like PSA, JTR, Rythmik and SVS and you guys mentioned quite a few different models.

2. When you and your house hits the limit of desired bass there really isn't any reason to look for a sub with more output, you won't use it.

3. I agree with basshead and others regarding low tuned subs, they can add a whole new dimension to your bass experience.

4. As many of you said, there is obviously a lot more to buying a sub than max output... CS, finish, port tune, bells and whistles, etc. These all matter (albeit differently to different people... but they matter).

5. Finally... all that matters in the end is that a person is TRULY happy with their sub... So I second everyone who said if you happy @acribb then enjoy your subs.

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post #40 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
@mthomas47 and others - Thanks for the great discussion. After another listen tonight, I feel like I am quite satisfied with this purchase. Now that may change in a few weeks though. I have until the beginning of April to ship these PB16's back.

I moved the subs around and this is the best I could come up with in REW measurements of dual subs. Is there anything I can do to even out the response in the 75hz+ range?

Post Audyssey settings which set the initial sub trim to -12:

Denon 4400 sub trim -7db
Denon 4400 MV - 50dB
Denon 4400 LPF for LFE - 120hz
SVS subs extended mode on each
SVS subs volume -15db on each

Dual PB16U REW measurement in 2300cf suspended floor room at above settings:

You are very welcome! I don't think the bump at 75Hz looks too bad, but you will get a more accurate representation of the frequency response if you use 5dB increments for the vertical axis instead of 10dB increments. Overall, that's a pretty good looking FR, and odds are if you measure with your CC or your front speakers, that bump at 75Hz will smooth-out a little with an 80Hz crossover.

You are getting a lot of SPL in your room, if Audyssey set your trim levels to -12 with gain levels of -15. If I were you though, I would rerun Audyssey with the gain levels just a little bit lower. Perhaps -16 or -17 would do the trick. The objective would be to get trim levels just slightly above -12, since that is the lowest that the trim settings are able to go. If you are at about -11, that's perfect, and -10 would still be great.

(You can keep your mic in the same position at the MLP, run three sweeps, and save your calibration after the first three measurements, in order to make a quick check of your trim levels. Then you can run your full calibration when you have the trim levels where you want them.)

Then, you can use a combination of gain and trim to have the bass you want to have. You will actually have a little more headroom with the PB16's if you keep your subwoofer gains at about -15 or just a little higher. That is actually not a very high gain level anyway for those subs. They are designed to produce max volume levels at less than max gain, but -15 is about the lowest you can go and still do that.

Something else you can try, during your next calibration, is to EQ with the subs in the Standard 20Hz mode. After calibrating, you can plug one port and return the subs to Extended mode. I have a feeling that Audyssey may be EQing out some of your very low-frequency room gain. If you are happy with where you are now, you may not want to bother with that. But, if you want to experiment with even lower frequencies, that would be a way you can do it.

Regards,
Mike

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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #41 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 08:52 PM
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This is the subwoofer forum in a nutshell SPL/$
yeah but who wants crappy, sloppy, slug like boom boom spl ,when you can have real quality, lightning quick, tight, holy crap i didnt know a sub could sound like this, bass, like you get with svs?
is 3 db worth of slop boom at 12 hz worth it?
not to me....
yall can keep those big , square , ugly , spray painted stadium boom boxes all you want
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post #42 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 09:01 PM
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Glad they work for you, I returned my PB16s and went with dual PSA V3611s which absolutely crushed the SVS in my room. It's a night and day difference on output.

Watch Youthman's reviews of dual JTRs vs his dual PB16s....spoiler, he isn't keeping the SVSs. Hell, a single sealed PSA almost made him sell both SVSs in the past.

None of these prebuilt units come close to a DIY. The output of a single Devastator is close to 4 PB16s for ~$1,200.
lol, 4-18 inch drivers in a box the size of an average refrigerator .... vs ... 2- 15.5 inch drivers?
i sure hope you heard a differance between the 2 of those setups!
lol, you guys kill me....
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post #43 of 142 Old 03-06-2020, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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@mthomas47 - Good advice above Mike. I'll give it all a try soon. Mike I was not concerned about the little 75hz peak, I was more concerned with the roll off that I see after 75hz. Should I expect the SPL to be continuously flat past 75hz since I have a 120 hz high pass filter?
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post #44 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
yeah but who wants crappy, sloppy, slug like boom boom spl ,when you can have real quality, lightning quick, tight, holy crap i didnt know a sub could sound like this, bass, like you get with svs?
is 3 db worth of slop boom at 12 hz worth it?
not to me....
yall can keep those big , square , ugly , spray painted stadium boom boxes all you want
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
lol, 4-18 inch drivers in a box the size of an average refrigerator .... vs ... 2- 15.5 inch drivers?
i sure hope you heard a differance between the 2 of those setups!
lol, you guys kill me....
Troll much?

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post #45 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
@mthomas47 - Good advice above Mike. I'll give it all a try soon. Mike I was not concerned about the little 75hz peak, I was more concerned with the roll off that I see after 75hz. Should I expect the SPL to be continuously flat past 75hz since I have a 120 hz high pass filter?
You could try the distance tweak. I had a nasty dip at 65Hz post Audy and using the tweak removed it.
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post #46 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
lol, 4-18 inch drivers in a box the size of an average refrigerator .... vs ... 2- 15.5 inch drivers?
i sure hope you heard a differance between the 2 of those setups!
lol, you guys kill me....
You do realize that the PB16 is a very large sub as well with probably one of the largest foot prints next to the cap4000?

In regards to your sloppy boomy spray painted box comment.

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post #47 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 06:40 AM
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I have not personally experienced some of the really big boy subs mentioned here but from all accounts they are all fantastic. I have a more modest setup (only by AVS standards) with dual SVS PC-4000s in a 3200 cuft living room. However I have spent many years on these forums. With dual PB16s in a 2300 cuft room on a suspended wood floor, flat FR to 15hz and usable extension below, plus what seems to be plenty of headroom I really can’t imagine a situation where you would be wanting more. Yes there may be the rare movie scene like the EOT intro that gets to 10hz and there are some here that chase that response but the reality is it is very unlikely in your setup you need more than what you have 99.9% of the time. Plus you get the great CS and the app control which I have really enjoyed and found useful compared to prior subs without it. Just my 2 cents.

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post #48 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
You could try the distance tweak. I had a nasty dip at 65Hz post Audy and using the tweak removed it.
Would testing with Audyssey Disabled or set to Flat indicate if changing the distance on the subs with Audyssey on has any effect?
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post #49 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Would testing with Audyssey Disabled or set to Flat indicate if changing the distance on the subs with Audyssey on has any effect?
Not exactly sure I'm understanding the question, but you definitely want to start dialing in & running sweeps without Audy on. Then, after you run Audy, if you have something like the 65Hz suckout result that I did, then you can try the distance tweak to eliminate it. I was able to completely get rid of it by adjusting the distance setting (in manual settings) by 1ft. intervals.

Here's a graph of my results (See Attached). Just ignore that mid 40Hz dip. We're just going to have to live together for now.


As an aside, I just realized after reading @mthomas47 's post that I spent over 3 hours dialing in set to 16Hz mode....and now I have to do it again. Thanks MIKE!!
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post #50 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Would testing with Audyssey Disabled or set to Flat indicate if changing the distance on the subs with Audyssey on has any effect?

There are at least a couple of completely different ways to do the distance tweak, especially if you have a miniDSP. In this case, I would probably start with the simplest method and just do the distance tweak after running Audyssey. You could do the tweak now, to test it via measurement, and then do it again after you recalibrate. Or, you could just wait until you recalibrate to do it.

Disabling Audyssey wouldn't tell you much. If there is phase cancellation occurring between the two subwoofers, Audyssey can't do anything at all about that. And, if you fix the problem before running Audyssey, you will simply complicate things for yourself. There is a workaround, but it will seem counterintuitive, and it will be a little extra trouble. Just approach it as described above.

Using Audyssey Flat wouldn't matter, as there is no difference in the bass frequencies between Flat and Reference. And, Audyssey always defaults to Reference after a calibration. You might want to read about some Audyssey basics in the Guide.

Regards,
Mike

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post #51 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Would testing with Audyssey Disabled or set to Flat indicate if changing the distance on the subs with Audyssey on has any effect?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
There are at least a couple of completely different ways to do the distance tweak, especially if you have a miniDSP. In this case, I would probably start with the simplest method and just do the distance tweak after running Audyssey. You could do the tweak now, to test it via measurement, and then do it again after you recalibrate. Or, you could just wait until you recalibrate to do it.

Disabling Audyssey wouldn't tell you much. If there is phase cancellation occurring between the two subwoofers, Audyssey can't do anything at all about that. And, if you fix the problem before running Audyssey, you will simply complicate things for yourself. There is a workaround, but it will seem counterintuitive, and it will be a little extra trouble. Just approach it as described above.

Using Audyssey Flat wouldn't matter, as there is no difference in the bass frequencies between Flat and Reference. And, Audyssey always defaults to Reference after a calibration. You might want to read about some Audyssey basics in the Guide.

Regards,
Mike
Yeah, what he said! ^^^

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post #52 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
I have not personally experienced some of the really big boy subs mentioned here but from all accounts they are all fantastic. I have a more modest setup (only by AVS standards) with dual SVS PC-4000s in a 3200 cuft living room. However I have spent many years on these forums. With dual PB16s in a 2300 cuft room on a suspended wood floor, flat FR to 15hz and usable extension below, plus what seems to be plenty of headroom I really can’t imagine a situation where you would be wanting more. Yes there may be the rare movie scene like the EOT intro that gets to 10hz and there are some here that chase that response but the reality is it is very unlikely in your setup you need more than what you have 99.9% of the time. Plus you get the great CS and the app control which I have really enjoyed and found useful compared to prior subs without it. Just my 2 cents.
Honestly it's not entirely all about more extension and spl. Low tune does add presence and weight without bloating the sound even with frequencies above the tuning point. You don't need material playing in the 10-15 hz at extreme levels to realize the difference. It would be nice to see some smaller low tune options become available so more people can experience this. Low tune ported is similar to Atmos in the sense it adds another layer to the sound. I wouldn't say it's nearly as dramatic of a difference as Atmos has made to surround but it is there. It isn't life changing and I could easily get by with what I had, but I do enjoy having a 10hz tune sub added to my room. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some lower tune options from SVS in the near future which would be a good thing because they make a solid product with the CS to back it up!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
There are at least a couple of completely different ways to do the distance tweak, especially if you have a miniDSP. In this case, I would probably start with the simplest method and just do the distance tweak after running Audyssey. You could do the tweak now, to test it via measurement, and then do it again after you recalibrate. Or, you could just wait until you recalibrate to do it.

Disabling Audyssey wouldn't tell you much. If there is phase cancellation occurring between the two subwoofers, Audyssey can't do anything at all about that. And, if you fix the problem before running Audyssey, you will simply complicate things for yourself. There is a workaround, but it will seem counterintuitive, and it will be a little extra trouble. Just approach it as described above.

Using Audyssey Flat wouldn't matter, as there is no difference in the bass frequencies between Flat and Reference. And, Audyssey always defaults to Reference after a calibration. You might want to read about some Audyssey basics in the Guide.

Regards,
Mike
How can you tell if there is phase cancellation between two subs in REW? Is it poor coupling?
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post #54 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 09:15 AM
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^^^

I think that one of the things that makes these discussions a little complicated is that so many of us are coming from completely different circumstances. For instance, when someone comes from a subwoofer which is tuned at around 20Hz, to a subwoofer which is tuned at 10Hz or 14Hz, he is immediately struck by the difference in "bass weight". And, that impression of bass weight is probably, in part, a difference in the relative proportions of mid-bass SPL, and very low-bass SPL, compared to what he was accustomed to before.

He is certainly hearing lower frequencies than he was before, but he is also hearing different proportions of bass frequencies than he was before, especially if he implements any kind of low-bass curve, via his room size control or whatever.

But, if that same individual were coming from a subwoofer which was tuned in the mid-teens, and which had a reasonably flat response down to about 14Hz or so, he might not notice nearly as much difference between that mid-teens port tune, and an even lower port tune. I think that there would be several potential variables involved in that.

One variable would be whether that individual could hear tonality differences below about 16Hz. (As noted earlier, audio studies say he couldn't.) Another potential variable would be whether the mid-teen tuned sub already had a relatively higher proportion of low-bass to mid-bass. I think that there is considerable anecdotal evidence to suggest that the relative proportion of low-bass to mid-bass is a key factor in our perceptions.

I believe that it is a combination of the relative low-bass/mid-bass proportion, perhaps combined with some subtle ULF TR cues, which create our perceptions of low-bass weight. And, those combinations can be achieved in different rooms with different tuning points. As noted in an earlier post, there really may not be a very significant difference in how we perceive a subwoofer tuned to the mid-teens, versus the way we perceive one that is tuned even lower.

In fact, most subwoofer makers, including SVS, Seaton Sound, Funk Audio, Rythmik, and PSA, have all selected port tunes in about the 13-16Hz range (call it low to mid-teens) as the sweet spot for ported subwoofers. Jeff at JTR also did that originally, with the 14Hz tune of the Cap 2400ULF, before deciding that he wanted to corner the 10Hz market.

I think I am correct in saying that there isn't much, if any, difference in the sound of the earlier 14Hz-tuned Cap 2400, and the 10Hz-tuned Cap 2400. That's not knocking the cool factor of a 10Hz port tune in any way. But, a lot of very good subwoofer makers have all settled on about low to mid-teen port tunes as their optimum solutions.

Just a thought, as we are comparing subwoofers, and trying to help each other understand what we may actually be hearing with even lower than a mid-teen port tune.

Regards,
Mike

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post #55 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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FYI, I did play around with the phase on 1 of the subwoofers adjusting it in 20 degree increments and then measuring with REW. It only worsened the response.

I will play around some more tonight with recalibration, different placement and distance settings.
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post #56 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
yeah but who wants crappy, sloppy, slug like boom boom spl ,when you can have real quality, lightning quick, tight, holy crap i didnt know a sub could sound like this, bass, like you get with svs?

is 3 db worth of slop boom at 12 hz worth it?

not to me....

yall can keep those big , square , ugly , spray painted stadium boom boxes all you want

The only sloppy thing in this discussion is the SVS.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #57 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 09:57 AM
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Selling subs that are tuned lower than 14-16hz requires a bigger box which is a harder sell to the masses. JTR figures a way to keep the boxes smaller and a lower tuning is always welcome. The more bandwidth one has the better IMHO as you will not miss anything recorded. Why spend all this money on big purchase items and cut off frequencies that are recorded. Why don’t you see speakers cut off above a certain frequency because we can’t hear it or it is not recorded? You would be surprised to see how little recorded info there is above 10khz in movies.

Getting full bandwidth before required many sealed boxes for the spl needed to experience it and a boost down low. Now with these lower tuned subs you can experience most of it with less subs and the port provides the boost.

I don’t know about others, but I always wanted to get as much bandwidth as I could so I know I would not miss anything whether I would notice it or not. The what if’s killed me.

That response for the OP is great, however, the main goal for me would be deeper. You never know what you are missing until you experience it. @basshead81 is finally experiencing that low energy and one might think it is not worth it until you remove it and all of a sudden you miss it. I went from a very deep in room response to an all horn loaded monster spl to 17hz and it sound too hollow for me. I needed my extension back! To each their own but only if you have experienced it properly and still did not care.

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post #58 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Honestly it's not entirely all about more extension and spl. Low tune does add presence and weight without bloating the sound even with frequencies above the tuning point. You don't need material playing in the 10-15 hz at extreme levels to realize the difference. It would be nice to see some smaller low tune options become available so more people can experience this. Low tune ported is similar to Atmos in the sense it adds another layer to the sound. I wouldn't say it's nearly as dramatic of a difference as Atmos has made to surround but it is there. It isn't life changing and I could easily get by with what I had, but I do enjoy having a 10hz tune sub added to my room. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some lower tune options from SVS in the near future which would be a good thing because they make a solid product with the CS to back it up!!
I agree with all you're saying basshead but I think you're underselling how dramatic the difference can be when you get a LT sub. No, it's not life changing but I think the difference in bass is pretty dramatic, perhaps as dramatic as Atmos is for immersive sound. With the LT sub the whole presentation of the bass changes in a way that (at least to me) is much more engaging and thrilling and that difference is with you all the time, every time the sub hits.

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post #59 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 11:03 AM
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I went from a very deep in room response to an all horn loaded monster spl to 17hz and it sound too hollow for me. I needed my extension back! To each their own but only if you have experienced it properly and still did not care.
That's a great way to describe it.

When you first get into this rabbit hole of a hobby you think bass is bass, it's the deep stuff. But no, bass is not just bass. Bass has layers and layers of nuances and to experience it at its best you need to experience as many of its frequencies as you can. A LT sub delivers bass with much more weight to it than a higher tuned sub, which sounds a little hollow in comparison to the LT sub. And strangely enough, the LT sub seems to deliver that weight even in scenes without significant ULF in it. That weight may not be for everyone, but for me it's addicting.

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post #60 of 142 Old 03-07-2020, 11:19 AM
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I agree!

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