Dual SVS PB16 Ultra vs. Dual JTR Captivator 2400 in 2300 cubic foot room - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 142 Old 03-15-2020, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by acribb View Post
I wonder if a single JTR Cap 4000 ULF in the front right would respond well since my left corner is crap. Is the front left corner even adding any SPL?

Should I try stacking the PB16s in the front right?

Is it plausible that dual JTR Cap 2400s with the extra 2k watts would bump me into distortion free listening that I like it regardless of my room challenges?

Here's my room again. It's small and the front corners are my only options.





This might seem weird but does opening different combinations of doors have an effect on response? It does for me. Also moving my subs even a couple inches can have a big difference in my response, looks like you might have some room to toe them in. I was thinking stacking might be a good idea since your right sub has a good response, but man be careful you don't scratch the piano gloss, not sure how its possible to lift a 175 lb sub onto the other one w/o doing damage.

Is it possible to put that left sub nearfield to your couch? Looks like you could maybe put it in between the chair and couch?

Nice looking room btw!
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post #122 of 142 Old 03-16-2020, 04:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll try toeing the left one in again. I tried moving it away from the wall straight forward a foot and then I tried toeing it in and I think it made it worse but I'll check again. These are all post audyssey sweeps with audyssey doing its thing with them in the corners as you see in the pics. Should I be measuring without audyssey on?
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post #123 of 142 Old 03-16-2020, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by acribb View Post
I'll try toeing the left one in again. I tried moving it away from the wall straight forward a foot and then I tried toeing it in and I think it made it worse but I'll check again. These are all post audyssey sweeps with audyssey doing its thing with them in the corners as you see in the pics. Should I be measuring without audyssey on?
I would look at the raw FR of the subs, so before Audyssey

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post #124 of 142 Old 03-16-2020, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
This might seem weird but does opening different combinations of doors have an effect on response? It does for me.
It does for me as well, I ran a bunch of experiments using REW with different doors open and closed... sure enough when the bathroom door is open I loose some mid bass.
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post #125 of 142 Old 03-16-2020, 06:36 AM
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What does the combined response look like without EQ? I would move the subs around until you find the best locations that require the least amount of EQ. That means moving them more then a foot. Try opposite corners front to back and both in the rear. Always keep Audy off until you find the best locations.
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post #126 of 142 Old 03-16-2020, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
I wonder if a single JTR Cap 4000 ULF in the front right would respond well since my left corner is crap. Is the front left corner even adding any SPL?

Should I try stacking the PB16s in the front right?

Is it plausible that dual JTR Cap 2400s with the extra 2k watts would bump me into distortion free listening that I like it regardless of my room challenges?

Here's my room again. It's small and the front corners are my only options.





Hi,

Opening a door can have the effect of tuning the room somewhat, similar to what the port on a subwoofer does. So, it could cause you to have more SPL at a particular frequency, or for a relatively small range of frequencies, but I don't believe it would help to resolve the null at 50Hz.

I may have made this suggestion in an earlier post, but I think if you were willing to rearrange things a little, you could get one of your subs in the back left corner. That would give you a front right corner, and a back left corner, placement. That diagonal subwoofer placement can be effective in some cases.

What I would do is to move your equipment console, behind the sofa, as far toward the door as I could. You would have to rearrange things on the top of that console so that you could still access the light switches. Then, I would move the workstation as close to the console as possible, creating space for the PB16 in the back left corner. It will be tight, but just looking at your photos, it may be possible. I would exhaust that possibility before stacking the subs.

On the other hand, if that just won't work, or if you want to try stacking the subs anyway, I would just be sure to put something between them to avoid marring the finish. Trying the subs stacked in the right front corner may help to simulate what a single Cap 4000ULF would do in your room, so if the left rear corner really can't happen, that might be worth a try.

Regards,
Mike

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post #127 of 142 Old 03-16-2020, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

Opening a door can have the effect of tuning the room somewhat, similar to what the port on a subwoofer does. So, it could cause you to have more SPL at a particular frequency, or for a relatively small range of frequencies, but I don't believe it would help to resolve the null at 50Hz.

I may have made this suggestion in an earlier post, but I think if you were willing to rearrange things a little, you could get one of your subs in the back left corner. That would give you a front right corner, and a back left corner, placement. That diagonal subwoofer placement can be effective in some cases.

What I would do is to move your equipment console, behind the sofa, as far toward the door as I could. You would have to rearrange things on the top of that console so that you could still access the light switches. Then, I would move the workstation as close to the console as possible, creating space for the PB16 in the back left corner. It will be tight, but just looking at your photos, it may be possible. I would exhaust that possibility before stacking the subs.

On the other hand, if that just won't work, or if you want to try stacking the subs anyway, I would just be sure to put something between them to avoid marring the finish. Trying the subs stacked in the right front corner may help to simulate what a single Cap 4000ULF would do in your room, so if the left rear corner really can't happen, that might be worth a try.

Regards,
Mike
+1...also that distortion you are hearing in the upper bass is almost certainly due to audy trashing your headroom at 50hz. Based on your compression graph you had to be running really hot to get 115 db peaks around 50, like near limits hot, so add 7db of Audy boost to gain levels at limits and you have distortion. Going off the audioholics review two PB16s in extended mode should be roughly 124db capable at 50hz, goes to show you what havoc a room/placement/cancellation can wreak on you.

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post #128 of 142 Old 03-17-2020, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Last night I spent a few hours moving the sub around. I measured without Audy on and it wasn't a huge difference tbh. Toeing it in. Moving it out from the wall a few feet. Moving it to the right of the speaker even though it looked hideous. And finally moved it to the rear right corner even though it stuck out. That made things even worse. Nothing changed that null at all. Not even opening or closing doors. Then I put it back in the front left as pictured and took a measurement from my head being lower as if I was laying down on the couch with my head on the left end of the couch and that removed the null. I actually do lay in that position a lot so it does make sense. I may try moving it to the back corner tonight and see what that does.

At any rate, am I correct in thinking that the extra 2k watts RMS I will get from the Cap 2400s will push me into the non distorting sound I'm looking for at my elevated listening levels even with the nulls? I'm not entirely sold on the idea of moving to the Cap 2400s but it seems logical.

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post #129 of 142 Old 03-17-2020, 05:25 AM
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post #130 of 142 Old 03-17-2020, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by acribb View Post
Last night I spent a few hours moving the sub around. I measured without Audy on and it wasn't a huge difference tbh. Toeing it in. Moving it out from the wall a few feet. Moving it to the right of the speaker even though it looked hideous. And finally moved it to the rear right corner even though it stuck out. That made things even worse. Nothing changed that null at all. Not even opening or closing doors. Then I put it back in the front left as pictured and took a measurement from my head being lower as if I was laying down on the couch with my head on the left end of the couch and that removed the null. I actually do lay in that position a lot so it does make sense. I may try moving it to the back corner tonight and see what that does.

At any rate, am I correct in thinking that the extra 2k watts RMS I will get from the Cap 2400s will push me into the non distorting sound I'm looking for at my elevated listening levels even with the nulls? I'm not entirely sold on the idea of moving to the Cap 2400s but it seems logical.
Try moving you mic up and down to check if that null is height related. You may not be able to do anything about it but at least you will know. The amp by itself will likely have no bearing on what you are after. For that size room the PB16s should have more than enough output so jus sheer increase in output will likely not change things. Now one thing I do know that it is very hard to make a JTR sub chuff, and when it is pushed it is not an offensive sound

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post #131 of 142 Old 03-17-2020, 05:58 AM
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post #132 of 142 Old 03-17-2020, 08:00 AM
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Basics.

Sub Crawl. Do one. To get the best performance you must tune your gear to the Room. That means making compromises with regard to aesthetics. Room Aesthetics or Sound Acoustics. Chose one.

Room dimensions? L/W/H

From the Center of the Sub Driver what is the distance from front wall and Back wall?

What is the distance from the MLP to the Front wall and Rear Wall?

Room mode cancellations/nulls can't be fixed. More power will just create larger null. You must either move the physical location of the Subs (Can be just inches here) or the Physical location of the Couch (MLP). Again could be a few inches forward or backward to move out of the room null. These Nulls are normally caused by sound waves bouncing off the back wall and merging with direct sound waves from the front. Read up on how to address room cancellations and nulls. Some room dimensions just suck for sound. The only thing left if you discover your room dimensions are not optimized is Acoustic Room Treatments.

From the pictures provided your Seating/MLP looks to be right at the 3/4 position of the room. Back wall reflections are most likely the culprit here. Can you hang a curtain or Rug on the back wall? If only temporary to see what it does the the FR? The thicker the better.

Moving the subs out further into the room will alter the reflected wave nulls. You only have to move this null a foot or so to get it away from your MLP. You could move the Subs 6 inches forward and move the Couch 6 inches forward. You just have to experiment by moving gear around in the room to find an acceptable compromise of Performance versus Aesthetics.

Think of, or Visualize Waves rolling through your room. The wave generator in this case is the Subs. So the waves originate from them. Each wave have a peak (high) and a trough (low). The waves will hit the back wall and bounce back towards the front of the room. When these Waves meet, you will have Direct peaks meeting with reflected peaks causing spikes (high/boost) of sound and Direct Troughs meeting reflected troughs causing cancellations and nulls (Low) at that specific overlapping position in the room. You ideally want to place your MLP in the location where the Wave Peaks meet. And you want to avoid placing the MLP in the location where the Wave Troughs meet.

A simple test to run to help locate when the Peaks and troughs are in your room is to play a test tone at average level, Using a sound meter walk from the front of the room to the back all the while looking at what the sound meter is registering. Be in the middle of the room from each side wall. Another words centerline of the room. Move slowly inches at a time from the front wall to the back wall. Dropping a sticky note (With a plus symbol written on it) in the spots where it gets the highest SPL and at the Lowest SPL locations (with a negative symbol) . Repeat this process a few times to really dial in the specific locations of Peaks and Troughs. This will help you visualize how the Sound waves behave in your room based on where the Subs are currently located.

Report back your findings/discoveries.

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post #133 of 142 Old 03-17-2020, 03:08 PM
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I am thinking a cap 4000 in your front right corner is going to be your solution in the end. It seems like your room hates dual subs.
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post #134 of 142 Old 03-18-2020, 09:46 AM
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I had a PB16 for a week or two a few years ago. I have never struggled with getting a sub to sound decent in my room as much as I did with that one. I have a tricky room as well, one thing I did to get better sound was turn the sub so that it was firing into the wall, not sure you have tried this yet. Also, in my experience, with a tricky room sealed subs seem to be more forgiving. I am not sure why that is. I think it might have something to do with the box dimensions of the PB16 ultra and certain rooms. Maybe a taller, shallower sub might do better. JTR RS2? I am loving my dual RS1's, they are only 18" deep so placement options are aplenty.



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post #135 of 142 Old 03-18-2020, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I moved the front left sub to the rear left. My results of sweeps at my MLP at -30dB MV, -15 on both subs and -4.5 and -4.0 sub trim in the Denon 4400, Audy OFF are shown below. The highlighted line is both together with the other lines the left and rt sub separately. I think it's definitely responding better on the MLP in this diagonal configuration. I'll need to rerun Audy now and see what shakes out from it.

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post #136 of 142 Old 03-18-2020, 09:46 PM
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I moved the front left sub to the rear left. My results of sweeps at my MLP at -30dB MV, -15 on both subs and -4.5 and -4.0 sub trim in the Denon 4400, Audy OFF are shown below. The highlighted line is both together with the other lines the left and rt sub separately. I think it's definitely responding better on the MLP in this diagonal configuration. I'll need to rerun Audy now and see what shakes out from it.

Thats a big improvement especially below 30hz. Looks like avg 6-8db added below 25hz, thats like adding 2- 3 subs!

EDIT Oh wait I'm sorry, I misread this, I didn't realize the bottom two lines on your overlay were not dual responses. To really compare you would need to compare to your previous placement at the same volume to see how much of an improvement there was.
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post #137 of 142 Old 03-18-2020, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acribb View Post
I moved the front left sub to the rear left. My results of sweeps at my MLP at -30dB MV, -15 on both subs and -4.5 and -4.0 sub trim in the Denon 4400, Audy OFF are shown below. The highlighted line is both together with the other lines the left and rt sub separately. I think it's definitely responding better on the MLP in this diagonal configuration. I'll need to rerun Audy now and see what shakes out from it.
Spoiler!
That's a very good pre-Audyssey graph, Audyssey will smooth that out nicely
I would run the auto EQ, set all speakers to small 80Hz, DEQ and DynVol off ,and boost the sub trim to taste (start at 6-8dB) and have a listen

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post #138 of 142 Old 03-19-2020, 07:57 AM
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Looks like post #125 hit the nail right on the head.

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post #139 of 142 Old 03-21-2020, 01:11 AM
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I would also consider dual GSG Audio Mini Marty or Full Marty subs, these would be way less money, and way more value than either of those options.

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post #140 of 142 Old 03-22-2020, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
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What does the combined response look like without EQ? I would move the subs around until you find the best locations that require the least amount of EQ. That means moving them more then a foot. Try opposite corners front to back and both in the rear. Always keep Audy off until you find the best locations.
In addition to keeping Audyssey off, do you recommend measuring in 2 channel stereo mode (that's what I've typically used in the past), or strictly the subs alone with no other speakers?
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post #141 of 142 Old 03-22-2020, 08:37 AM
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In addition to keeping Audyssey off, do you recommend measuring in 2 channel stereo mode (that's what I've typically used in the past), or strictly the subs alone with no other speakers?
I would measure the system exactly the way you would listen to it. I only measure Subs only when compression sweep testing... with no speakers in the measurement you won't know how the subs are integrating with the speakers around the crossover region.
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post #142 of 142 Old 03-24-2020, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's my compression test with them in their diagonal corners from my MLP.

Sweeps of both at -6dB sub trim with left sub at -8dB volume and right sub at -6dB volume.

-20MV = good
-15MV = slight rattle/chuffing in the 10-20hz range
-10MV = quite a lot of rattle/chuffing in the 10-20hz range.

I have initiated a return with SVS and will be ordering Cap 2400s shortly.

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