Dual SVS PB16 Ultra vs. Dual JTR Captivator 2400 in 2300 cubic foot room - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 150 Old 03-05-2020, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I went ahead and pulled the trigger and ordered dual PB16 Ultras due to the 45 day trial with free return shipping. As a disclaimer, I never owned a single subwoofer that was this powerful, much less 2 subwoofers this powerful, so my thoughts may be entirely based on the wow factor I am receiving. I am fairly impressed with how these SVS subs sound in my 2300 cubic foot room on a suspended 2nd floor. I am using them in extended mode and from where I sit they sound tight and deep and provide a great deal of tactile sensation once turned up. I was able to push peaks of 110 dB with ease and I didn't really feel the need to turn it up louder even though it had a lot more it could give. And the build finish on the PB16Us is simply premium all around, including the metal grills and the gimmicky front display in that cool looking blue that is dimmable. I also really like the fact that I can control both of these and fully tune them from the app on my phone. I have presets set so I can turn them down to wife friendly levels at the touch of a button on an app on my phone without having to move my lazy self off the couch to fiddle with knobs.

But it still makes me wonder what I can gain, if anything, by returning these and instead buying dual JTR Cap 2400 units. Am I missing out on anything since I have such a small room that is apparently easily pressurized?

I made a nerdy graph below comparing the CEA 2010 stats between the current PB16U (stats courtesy of Audioholics) and the CEA 2010 stats of the pre 2019 JTR Cap 2400 version (stats courtesy of Data-Bass.com). The PB16U seems to provide slightly higher output or equal to the JTR in the 16 to 31.5 hz bands while the Cap soundly beats the PB16U below 16 hz with extension down to 10 hz while the PB16U rolls off sharply under 16 hz. From 31.5 hz to 125 hz, the more powerful JTR Cap 2400 with the 2400 watt amp beats the PB16U from 3-5 dB, but has higher THD.

Discuss.

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post #2 of 150 Old 03-05-2020, 07:51 PM
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post #3 of 150 Old 03-05-2020, 07:56 PM
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Dual SVS PB16 Ultra vs. Dual JTR Captivator 2400 in 2300 cubic foot room

You could get the best of both worlds with dual Rythmik FV18’s or FV25HP’s.

The FV25HP’s would be similar priced, but with more output, lower distortion, and I believe ever so slightly less dig, (compared to the Cap2400, I’m pretty sure it walks over the SVS) which won’t be noticeable due to the higher output.

The FV18’s would be an SVS equivalent for cheaper, with less distortion, and similar or more output.

The FV25HP’s are monstrous subs though.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #4 of 150 Old 03-05-2020, 08:17 PM
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What does REW tell you? Before swapping out subs, I'd suggest getting REW (free software), and a Umik-1, and to complete the holy trinity, a MiniDSP2x4HD and get that pair of subs working to their fullest potential.

After running sweeps with REW, you'll know what distortion you're at in room (going to be much lower in-room), how good your extension is in your room (going to be much lower in-room most likely), and if you're needing more output (doubtful unless you're chasing 10Hz and under)... Speaking of output, having ability to play louder is all well and good, but how loud do you really listen?
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post #5 of 150 Old 03-05-2020, 10:12 PM
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The JTR is the better overall performer - absolutely no doubt, this has been objectively shown,they are also USA made which is important to many and are known for having tonnes of tactile bass - The SVS is fairly close performance wise from 16Hz and up and comes with other perks that many find attractive - the overall looks and fit and finish, the remote and app control, on-board PEQ, absolutely outstanding customer service, resale value etc
work out what's most important to you and go from there, if the PB16 is offering you everything you want/need in your room, I'd stick with them, if you feel you aren't even using all of there capability then you won't be gaining much with the 2400's except for output in the 10-14Hz range

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post #6 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 06:20 AM
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JTR all day, any day....or PSA and Rythmik for that matter. SVS is going to have the lowest return on investment.

Or jump down the DIY rabbit hole and hit 125dBs at 16Hz and enough midbass to tear your drywall down with a 21" LFE Devastator.
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post #7 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 06:30 AM
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If you're already wondering what you're missing out on then clearly are destined to be a basshead and eventually, you'll go DIY. So why not do it right from the start? Build some 21" Devastators and call it a good start

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post #8 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 06:48 AM
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I’d keep the PB16-U’s and call it good. You already said you’re not close to pushing them. The hassle of returning them and then setting up new subs isn’t worth it, IMHO. The law of diminishing returns is in full effect.

You also really like the SVS phone app. You won’t have that with other brands. And you like how they look. You’re getting the performance you want and then some—why change?

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post #9 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 06:53 AM
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Funny thing is that some people would recommend a brand without even owning a product from them. I can only talk about SVS and i can say that it would be hard or more likely impossible for other companies to match their customer service. the longest they took to ever reply to an e-mail was a day, and we all know how frustrating it is when we have an issue and want it solved ASAP to get things working. they have amazing live chat support most days of the week, not only that but their 5 year warranty is the best in the business. they have shipped amps and drivers via Fedex FREE OF CHARGE to me. and i am sure they are willing to do it all over again. many of my friends have SVS subs without issues and are more than happy with their CS. And honestly i would rather deal with a company than some of the smaller ID brands(no offense) but that is just me. Also lets not forget the 1 year trade policy , the 45 day risk free in-home trial and their 60 day price protection. I have even seen some people that had their subs fixed after their warranty expired by years! now i don't know how can do this other than them.

Also i love the SVS mobile app it's super convenient and responsive. i have two subs behind my AT screen and it's hard to adjust them manually.Even my two rear subs are behind my MLP but i don't want to move a 100LBS+ sub to adjust the volume or other things. Many people have hidden subs or maybe in cabinets that aren't easily reachable, this is a nice feature. (lets no forget about the remote too!)

If we talk about looks it does look better than most of the others and i think this is an important aspect especially if we want it somewhere visible in our room.

I think when comparing subs everything should be considered and not only SPL. it's like comparing two cars and just saying the one with more horsepower is better and forgetting about design,handling,braking,options,features..etc

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post #10 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 06:56 AM
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Some of us are true baseheads but want nothing to do with DIY. That being said, as DavidinGA alludes to above, if you are already wondering what you are missing you will always be wondering. Although the SVS's are great subs, the JTR (or other offerings by PSA, Rythmik etc.) will simply provide you with more although they may not be in a pretty package as the SVS offerings. As an FYI, I used to own an SVS SB16 Ultra, then a JTR 2400 and finally a PSA TV36 ipal. Both of these were far superior to the SVS, but granted, the SVS was a sealed sub so not a like for like comparison.

Bottom line, only you can decide. Again, SVS makes great subs. But if you already have the what if's, they most likely won't go away. If this is the case, you should make a change while still under your 45 day window.
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post #11 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 06:59 AM
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Hi @acribb Adam,

Comes down to answering two questions.

Do/can the Current subs become too much for the House/Room? Do you find yourself dialing them back rather than Up? Do they give you more than the House/Room/Wife can handle? All the same question really. If yes to these questions. Then stay with what you have and all the other options are just going to be too much for the conditions and go unused. This is a reality check.

Do you find yourself dialing them UP and wanting MORE? When cranking them is the House OK, Wife good and your thinking Damn I want more of this? If your still thinking these Subs are just not enough, then send them back and get the JTR's. Or get the JTR's and try to run them in comparison if you can get them while still having return time on the SVS's. This is Alternate reality Zone! Admitting your a Basshead is the first step in treatment. Are you one?

Getting the SVS's subs was to do a test run on what the room/house/wife could tolerate. Only you can answer this question. If your already having feelings of I want more....Then just go JTR and don't look back.

Warning. The House, Room and you will all react completely differently once exposed to 15-Hz and Below Frequency Sound pressure. You have been Warned! Things will break, fall, jiggle, rattle, shake, disintegrate, and relationships will suffer. Are you ready for this? Did I mention Neighbors? How close are they? Do you like them?

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post #12 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Kothoga View Post
JTR all day, any day....or PSA and Rythmik for that matter. SVS is going to have the lowest return on investment.

Or jump down the DIY rabbit hole and hit 125dBs at 16Hz and enough midbass to tear your drywall down with a 21" LFE Devastator.
With dual PB16s I hit 121db at 16hz in a 6k cu ft room on concrete. 118db at 14.5hz. My room struggles with midbass for some reason but I can still hit 120db 60-100hz. Seems pretty good to me. Anymore then this is a recipe for hearing aids.

Plus the subs are gorgeous, piano gloss isn't free last I checked.
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post #13 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 07:52 AM
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You could get the best of both worlds with dual Rythmik FV18’s or FV25HP’s.

The FV25HP’s would be similar priced, but with more output, lower distortion, and I believe ever so slightly less dig, (compared to the Cap2400, I’m pretty sure it walks over the SVS) which won’t be noticeable due to the higher output.

The FV18’s would be an SVS equivalent for cheaper, with less distortion, and similar or more output.

The FV25HP’s are monstrous subs though.
Comparing the audioholics review to CEA database the PB16 is within 1db of the FV25HP from 16-31hz so I wouldn't say the FV18 = PB16 if you are a HT person looking for ultra deep bass and TR. FV25HP is def a better overall sub though output wise not going to argue that.

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post #14 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 07:59 AM
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JTR, I have dual 1400’s in my 2300 cubic ft room and they’re absolutely terrifying.
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post #15 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post
Comparing the audioholics review to CEA database the PB16 is within 1db of the FV25HP from 16-31hz so I wouldn't say the FV18 = PB16 if you are a HT person looking for ultra deep bass and TR. FV25HP is def a better overall sub though output wise not going to argue that.

Unfortunately it’s really hard to compare measurements taken from two different sources, even to the same standard.

But I’ll agree there may be truth to your argument but I would wait to validate it until Databass gets to test a PB16

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #16 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 09:16 AM
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I think when comparing subs everything should be considered and not only SPL. it's like comparing two cars and just saying the one with more horsepower is better and forgetting about design,handling,braking,options,features..etc
This is the subwoofer forum in a nutshell SPL/$

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post #17 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
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With dual PB16s I hit 121db at 16hz in a 6k cu ft room on concrete. 118db at 14.5hz. My room struggles with midbass for some reason but I can still hit 120db 60-100hz. Seems pretty good to me. Anymore then this is a recipe for hearing aids.

Plus the subs are gorgeous, piano gloss isn't free last I checked.
This means, with dual Cap 2400s you can hit 120db at 16Hz, and 125db at 14.5Hz, and at least [email protected] 10Hz!!!

Not only that, You still get 125dB @ 60~100hz!!!

When you are spending $5000 on subs, aim higher. AIM DEEPER.

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post #18 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 10:00 AM
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This means, with dual Cap 2400s you can hit 120db at 16Hz, and 125db at 14.5Hz, and at least [email protected] 10Hz!!!

Not only that, You still get 125dB @ 60~100hz!!!

When you are spending $5000 on subs, aim higher. AIM DEEPER.
Yeah 2400caps are awesome no doubt. I have crowsons to handle <14hz though so I don't think I'm missing much. I started with a PB1000 a year ago and used the SVS trade up program to end up where I am. Were I starting fresh knowing I'd spend 5k on subs I may have ended up with cap 2400s.

I'm not here to say one is better then the other, just saying if the OP doesn't want >110db peaks then the 16 ultras are already overkill and using my own room/output as an example why.

You guys are saying he should take the effort to move and ship out 2 207lb boxes so he can get 125 db 14hz peaks instead of 118db 14hz peaks when he has said 110db is as loud as he likes to listen. He probably also gets way more room gain then me since his room is 1/3 the size of mine as well. Then on top of that move more 200+ lb boxes in?

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post #19 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 10:32 AM
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It might just come down to veneer or WAF like it did with my supervisor as he went from a 12" Velodyne to an SVS PB-4000. He also liked the remote and the backing of a larger company rather than a smaller ID company as I was trying to talk up PSA and Tom's excellent customer service.

Alas, it is what it is. We all have different preferences.
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post #20 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
Hi @acribb Adam,

Comes down to answering two questions.

Do/can the Current subs become too much for the House/Room? Do you find yourself dialing them back rather than Up? Do they give you more than the House/Room/Wife can handle? All the same question really. If yes to these questions. Then stay with what you have and all the other options are just going to be too much for the conditions and go unused. This is a reality check.

Do you find yourself dialing them UP and wanting MORE? When cranking them is the House OK, Wife good and your thinking Damn I want more of this? If your still thinking these Subs are just not enough, then send them back and get the JTR's. Or get the JTR's and try to run them in comparison if you can get them while still having return time on the SVS's. This is Alternate reality Zone! Admitting your a Basshead is the first step in treatment. Are you one?

Getting the SVS's subs was to do a test run on what the room/house/wife could tolerate. Only you can answer this question. If your already having feelings of I want more....Then just go JTR and don't look back.

Warning. The House, Room and you will all react completely differently once exposed to 15-Hz and Below Frequency Sound pressure. You have been Warned! Things will break, fall, jiggle, rattle, shake, disintegrate, and relationships will suffer. Are you ready for this? Did I mention Neighbors? How close are they? Do you like them?

While I agree with the majority of what you say, sometimes there is more than just sheer volume. He may not want to crank it up anymore because the base is already at insane levels. But what does that bass sound/feel like? Are you getting the tactile feel you are looking for? Do ULF scenes shake your chair like you would like? Do gun shot scenes punch you in the chest like you would like? Is the sound signature what you are looking for? For me, I could get not get any of these (to the depths I was looking for) with my SB16 - even though I had the sub running 10 db hot and plenty of room to spare. I got more of what I was looking for with the JTR 2400 and even more with the TV36, at which point I was finally satisfied. With the new drivers Jeff is using, early reports are an improved sound signature as well as awesome ULF that JTR is known for and great mid bass to boot. But as others have said, only the OP can decide. But if already having the "what ifs", it might be wise to make a move during the 45 day window.
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post #21 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 11:02 AM
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While I agree with the majority of what you say, sometimes there is more than just sheer volume. He may not want to crank it up anymore because the base is already at insane levels. But what does that base sound/feel like? Are you getting the tactile feel you are looking for? Do ULF scenes shake your chair like you would like? Do gun shot scenes punch you in the chest like you would like? Is the sound signature what you are looking for? For me, I could get not get any of these (to the depths I was looking for) with my SB16 - even though I had the sub running 10 db hot and plenty of room to spare. I got more of what I was looking for with the JTR 2400 and even more with the TV36, at which point I was finally satisfied. With the new drivers Jeff is using, early reports are an improved sound signature as well as awesome ULF that JTR is known for and great mid bass to boot. But as others have said, only the OP can decide. But if already having the "what ifs", it might be wise to make a move during the 45 day window.
SB16 is nowhere close to PB16 when it comes to <40hz. PB16 has 14db more output then the SB16 at 16hz, 9 more db at 25hz. 5 more db at 31hz in extended mode. @imureh said in another thread that the sound signature of the 2400ULF and the PB16 is similar. Maybe he could elaborate.

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post #22 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kothoga View Post
JTR all day, any day....or PSA and Rythmik for that matter. SVS is going to have the lowest return on investment.

Or jump down the DIY rabbit hole and hit 125dBs at 16Hz and enough midbass to tear your drywall down with a 21" LFE Devastator.
With dual PB16s I hit 121db at 16hz in a 6k cu ft room on concrete. 118db at 14.5hz. My room struggles with midbass for some reason but I can still hit 120db 60-100hz. Seems pretty good to me. Anymore then this is a recipe for hearing aids.

Plus the subs are gorgeous, piano gloss isn't free last I checked.
Glad they work for you, I returned my PB16s and went with dual PSA V3611s which absolutely crushed the SVS in my room. It's a night and day difference on output.

Watch Youthman's reviews of dual JTRs vs his dual PB16s....spoiler, he isn't keeping the SVSs. Hell, a single sealed PSA almost made him sell both SVSs in the past.

None of these prebuilt units come close to a DIY. The output of a single Devastator is close to 4 PB16s for ~$1,200.
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post #23 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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This means, with dual Cap 2400s you can hit 120db at 16Hz, and 125db at 14.5Hz, and at least [email protected] 10Hz!!!

Not only that, You still get 125dB @ 60~100hz!!!

When you are spending $5000 on subs, aim higher. AIM DEEPER. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Yeah 2400caps are awesome no doubt. I have crowsons to handle <14hz though so I don't think I'm missing much. I started with a PB1000 a year ago and used the SVS trade up program to end up where I am. Were I starting fresh knowing I'd spend 5k on subs I may have ended up with cap 2400s.

I'm not here to say one is better then the other, just saying if the OP doesn't want >110db peaks then the 16 ultras are already overkill and using my own room/output as an example why.

You guys are saying he should take the effort to move and ship out 2 207lb boxes so he can get 125 db 14hz peaks instead of 118db 14hz peaks when he has said 110db is as loud as he likes to listen. He probably also gets way more room gain then me since his room is 1/3 the size of mine as well. Then on top of that move more 200+ lb boxes in?
Matt - You bring a valid point! I don't know about the rest of you, but I was listening at the levels having 110db peaks for about an hour and my ears were ringing afterwards. I honestly don't see how anyone can reasonably sustain 125db levels without causing real hearing loss. Or maybe everyone else who listens at these levels for extended periods has already lost their hearing and needs these volume levels to compensate.

My initial REW tests of these dual subs in my room are showing a roll off at 80hz which is quite strange. My LFE high pass is set to 120hz on the Denon 4400 so I'm not sure what is happening here. I'm going to use REW to perform some max clean SPL measurements of each sub in the room and both together over the weekend. I'll also experiment with sliding them around to different positions since I set them up on furniture sliders on carpet.

Remember this is a 2300 cubic foot room on a suspended second floor in a stick built house.

I'll post the results here.
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post #24 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 01:04 PM
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SB16 is nowhere close to PB16 when it comes to <40hz. PB16 has 14db more output then the SB16 at 16hz, 9 more db at 25hz. 5 more db at 31hz in extended mode. @imureh said in another thread that the sound signature of the 2400ULF and the PB16 is similar. Maybe he could elaborate.

If you would have read my first post above I did state "granted, the SVS was a sealed sub so not a like for like comparison". Two, I could be mistaken, but I don't believe @imureh has heard the new drivers that Jeff is starting to use which some have reported has a different sound signature. My point being, each sub has a different sound signature. Cranking the volume up won't change that. And to your point about the SB vs. PB - you are agreeing with my point. I could crank the SB till my ears bled - but I wasn't getting the chest slam and ULF I desired. Again, it's not always just about volume and headroom. If the OP is not getting the chest slam, ULF chair shaking bass or sound signature he is looking for then he may want to try something else during the 45 day window.
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post #25 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 01:06 PM
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Glad they work for you, I returned my PB16s and went with dual PSA V3611s which absolutely crushed the SVS in my room. It's a night and day difference on output.

Watch Youthman's reviews of dual JTRs vs his dual PB16s....spoiler, he isn't keeping the SVSs. Hell, a single sealed PSA almost made him sell both SVSs in the past.

None of these prebuilt units come close to a DIY. The output of a single Devastator is close to 4 PB16s for ~$1,200.
First the single PSA was a dual driver 18" so kind of like having two subs. That aside he never came close to selling his SVS' for a single S3601.

The JTRs he has are the new S2. Again dual 18" drivers per box with 4K watt amps and they're over a grand each more than the PB16s. Not exactly apples to apples here.

Pretty much all the SVS subs perform well within their price range especially on the low end and given their overall size and driver size. I will only buy SVS subs because when I do upgrade I can get them from Crutchfield without having to pay some astronomical amount of shipping.
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You don't need to listen above 110db peaks to benefit from lower tuned subs. You can easily play 110db flat across the board down to 10hz with Cap 2400's. Or you could run a house curve to bring up the low end frequencies even further to make better use of the ULF. The PB16's are never going to do that. I am not saying 10-14hz output is end all be all but there are some advantages that can be had without listening excessively loud by going with a low tune offering.

I would suggest ordering a Cap 2400 to compare.


Fwiw humans ears can tolerate low frequency SPL much easier then high frequencies. You don't have to worry about hearing damage from bass until you are north of 150db from frequencies below 100hz. Your ears were likely ringing from the high frequency levels from the mains.

Again this is why many with low tuned subs run a rising curve to bring up the ULF levels that have virtually no detrimental effects to our hearing so you don't have to listen excessively loud to get the goods.
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You don't need to listen above 110db peaks to benefit from lower tuned subs. You can easily play 110db flat across the board down to 10hz with Cap 2400's. Or you could run a house curve to bring up the low end frequencies even further to make better use of the ULF. The PB16's are never going to do that. I am not saying 10-14hz output is end all be all but there are some advantages that can be had without listening excessively loud by going with a low tune offering.

I would suggest ordering a Cap 2400 to compare.


Fwiw humans ears can tolerate low frequency SPL much easier then high frequencies. You don't have to worry about hearing damage from bass until you are north of 150db from frequencies below 100hz. Your ears were likely ringing from the high frequency levels from the mains.

Again this is why many with low tuned subs run a rising curve to bring up the ULF levels that have virtually no detrimental effects to our hearing so you don't have to listen excessively loud to get the goods.
I'd selfishly love for OP to bring in some 2400s to compare the two. His back and time not mine. Alot of great subs out there.

Also I pray to god you are right regarding sub 100hz bass and hearing damage because I'm not keen on the potential for hearing aids.

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post #28 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 01:46 PM
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You don't need to listen above 110db peaks to benefit from lower tuned subs. You can easily play 110db flat across the board down to 10hz with Cap 2400's. Or you could run a house curve to bring up the low end frequencies even further to make better use of the ULF. The PB16's are never going to do that. I am not saying 10-14hz output is end all be all but there are some advantages that can be had without listening excessively loud by going with a low tune offering.

Spot on BH, and much better said than my feeble attempts. I can listen at a MV of -17 to -20 (sub 8 db hot though) and get all the ULF and mid bass chest slam I can handle. As you mention, with the right sub you don't have to listen at super high volume levels to achieve this. And if the OP isn't getting what he is looking for without feeling as if the volume is too loud, or is wondering what if, trying a different sub prior to the 45 day window closing might be in his best interest.
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post #29 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Honestly, how often do sub 16 hz frequencies occur in movies and music? Isn't it true that most low frequency output in movies and music occurs in the 16hz and above range?

Does the ultra low frequency extension we are discussing here really have true merit?

For what it's worth the couches and everything vibrate quite a lot on this suspended second floor. I honestly feel there is more tactile feedback than Adam's dual Cap 2400 ULF I demoed, but his subs are setup on concrete slab in a large open concept space. They are about 90% the tactile feel of Charles' 3x sealed SI 24" drivers which is around the same sized room as mine, but with a concrete slab.

And also, I have no issues at all packing these guys up and sending them back using the Shoulder Dolly I bought and another able body.

I'm just wondering if it's really warranted.

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post #30 of 150 Old 03-06-2020, 03:24 PM
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SB16 is nowhere close to PB16 when it comes to <40hz. PB16 has 14db more output then the SB16 at 16hz, 9 more db at 25hz. 5 more db at 31hz in extended mode. @imureh said in another thread that the sound signature of the 2400ULF and the PB16 is similar. Maybe he could elaborate.


Yes I have not heard the new JTR drivers but what I had said what when I listened to the pB16 it had the similar texture to the sound. It was thick and similar to the JTR. The driver also had great excursion and pounded hard. I would still give the edge to the JTR. I know SVS gets a lot of slack but the PB16 is a great sub and can go toe to toe with the top subs out there. Personally I would go with the JTR and get the low performance which is really a key ingredient for a full experience for HT. With BEQ as an option one can really take advantage of a LT sub. I was very impressed by the PB13 and even more so by the pb16. If there are other factors that are also important to you like looks and app etc then go for the svs but if you are looking for pure performance to the max then no one does it better than JTR.


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