Am I the only one who doesn't give a hoot about Tactile Response? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 79 Old 03-16-2020, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
For me tactile response has to be done more natural to like it. I have the big butt kickers and to me they are artificial compared to a good ported sub. Example would be a thunder cloud, the sensation is just natural with the sub, more subdued but smooth and balanced with the sound track. Butt kickers are more abrupt and not natural in comparison.



So it really comes down to preference and how much "tactile" you want, it might just be a limited amount that you need to make it better.


Pretty much agree. Never like any ma’s so far. But, my boss and my friends boss seem more like just an extension of the subwoofers. I’m sure it’s in the hideaway theater thread, or the TR thread and probably the BEQ thread...lol but I think it has to do with the pistonic motion of the drivers basically being the same.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the engineering behind all the hover BOSSes and crazy TR setups. I’m trying to sell my wife on a mini riser. We’ll see...
I also think 700hp street cars are perfectly practical too.
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post #62 of 79 Old 03-16-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Appreciate that! I’ve been interested in BEQ for awhile. It’s really compelling.
All four outputs are used on my minidsp. I need to read the thread starter so I know how to BEQ without interfering with my existing filters. Hover BOSS looks awesome too. Trying to convince my wife and her short-ish legs to accept a riser lol.
I have a Hover boss and it only adds a minuscule amount of height. A definite must if you are running a boss already!
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post #63 of 79 Old 03-16-2020, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
I have a Hover boss and it only adds a minuscule amount of height. A definite must if you are running a boss already!


Did you share it in the hideaway thread? I don’t get to check in all the time(busy), and man when that thread takes off...
Got some time in quarantine so I look forward to check some more of those out.
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post #64 of 79 Old 03-17-2020, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Did you share it in the hideaway thread? I don’t get to check in all the time(busy), and man when that thread takes off...
Got some time in quarantine so I look forward to check some more of those out.

Yes, I have posted my Hover BOSS setup in the Hideaway Theater thread. Here's a few links:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...l#post59071058


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...l#post59120484


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...l#post59269992


And here's a fun video showing the results of going to the Hover BOSS setup (this was before the HBD mod):


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post59090844
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post #65 of 79 Old 03-21-2020, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Sorry, not in my book



Mid bass is around 45 to 75Hz, where you feel it your chest.


Darth
Thanks Darth. I value your opinion. Here is what I understood it from other sources.

Others, please comment about your thoughts as well.

50hz (usually sub bass)
this freq is where all the boom is, if you want more boom on foot drums and bass guitar, boost, to reduce, cut.

100hz( usually mid bass)
this is the hard bass sound, it gives drums that solid feel, boosting here will harden the drums/bass guitar, as well as adding warmth to guitars. A cut will reduce boom on guitar and add clarity.

200hz (either midbass/mid)
Boost to add warmth to vocals and guitar, reduce to clean up vocals

400hz (usually mid / large Horn)
Boost to bass in general, reduce to decrease cardboard sound low drums.

800hz(usually mid/horns)
Boost to add clarity and Punch to bass, this is the one that digs you in the ribs , cut to reduce tinnyness to guitars

1.5khz (mid/tweet/horns)
Boost to add clarity to bass guitar, reduce to impreve dullness of guitar

3khz (mid/tweet/horns)
Boost to increase pluck on bass guitar, attack on guitar and high drums, increases clarity of vocals.
Cut to reduce breathy sound on vocals.

5khz(mid/tweet/horns)
boost for vocal presence, low drum attack, piano attack, and guitars, reduce to distance background.

7khz(usually tweet/horn)
boost, more attack on low drums, percussion and bring life to dull vocals, also sharpen elctric guitar
Cut to reduce siblance

10khz (tweet/horn)
increase to brighten vocals/guitar and piano
cut to reduce siblance

15khz (tweet/horn)
increase to brighten vocals/guitar and piano highs

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post #66 of 79 Old 03-21-2020, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
It's silly to suggest someone doesn't appreciate something solely on the basis they haven't experienced it at its finest. I have had shrimp at its finest (restaurant and the shrimp itself) and I hate it.
That statement doesn't help your argument.

You previously had shrimp that may or may not have been the best in the world - you hated it
You then had the best shrimp in the world - you still hated it but at least you experienced it to be able to pass that judgment.

You felt TR that was not setup properly (it certainly sounds from your description that it wasn't) - you hated it
You felt TR that was setup to perfection - oh wait you haven't have you ? so you can't extrapolate your shrimp experience to the TR experience. Please correct me if I am wrong.

So UNTIL you feel properly setup TR you can't say whether you like it or not.
You may still not like it but at least then you can confidently state your opinion that you do not like TR and even give subjective reasons why not.
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post #67 of 79 Old 03-21-2020, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by niterida View Post
So UNTIL you feel properly setup TR you can't say whether you like it or not.
That's a total strawman. I have been around here long enough to well know it will never be properly setup until I like it... sorry not going down that road. I have already posted what my opinion is based on.

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post #68 of 79 Old 03-21-2020, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Thanks Darth. I value your opinion. Here is what I understood it from other sources.

Others, please comment about your thoughts as well.

50hz (usually sub bass)
this freq is where all the boom is, if you want more boom on foot drums and bass guitar, boost, to reduce, cut.

100hz( usually mid bass)
this is the hard bass sound, it gives drums that solid feel, boosting here will harden the drums/bass guitar, as well as adding warmth to guitars. A cut will reduce boom on guitar and add clarity.

200hz (either midbass/mid)
Boost to add warmth to vocals and guitar, reduce to clean up vocals

400hz (usually mid / large Horn)
Boost to bass in general, reduce to decrease cardboard sound low drums.

800hz(usually mid/horns)
Boost to add clarity and Punch to bass, this is the one that digs you in the ribs , cut to reduce tinnyness to guitars

1.5khz (mid/tweet/horns)
Boost to add clarity to bass guitar, reduce to impreve dullness of guitar

3khz (mid/tweet/horns)
Boost to increase pluck on bass guitar, attack on guitar and high drums, increases clarity of vocals.
Cut to reduce breathy sound on vocals.

5khz(mid/tweet/horns)
boost for vocal presence, low drum attack, piano attack, and guitars, reduce to distance background.

7khz(usually tweet/horn)
boost, more attack on low drums, percussion and bring life to dull vocals, also sharpen elctric guitar
Cut to reduce siblance

10khz (tweet/horn)
increase to brighten vocals/guitar and piano
cut to reduce siblance

15khz (tweet/horn)
increase to brighten vocals/guitar and piano highs

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Cannot disagree with your post, since many source seem to contradict themselves with each others. For bass/mid bass … descriptions
From experience, the chest punch you feel is mostly center around 45 to 73 Hz. While some say down to 30Hz and up to 100Hz, and more likely also correct by contributing to the chest slam sensation.


Darth

Last edited by darthray; 03-21-2020 at 09:51 PM.
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post #69 of 79 Old 03-22-2020, 02:13 AM
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I think some might be taking this a little too much to heart. Not everyone has to like what you (or even the majority) like. And I don't think someone needs to experience the absolute pinnacle of anything before they can decide whether it's for them or not. I really don't like Blood Sausage, and I don't care if Heston Blumenthal and Gordon Ramsay tag-team up and make one from Unicorn blood - I still won't like it lol
I enjoy the "normal" amount of TR/couch shaking I get naturally from my subs, and I only like to feel it when something BIG happens on screen (think- dinosaur footsteps, a tree collapsing, explosions and Earth quakes etc) and I fully accept that it probably wouldn't be enough for a lot of people on here. My system is weak sauce by AVS standards - and even it's been "too much" for a few people I've demoed it for.
This is definitely a case of "Different Stroke for different folks" "One man's meat is another man's poison" "horses for courses" ummmm..."There's no accounting for taste" etc

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post #70 of 79 Old 03-22-2020, 04:58 AM
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I agree, for me there is a fine line between bass and TR that adds just the right amount of effect to the movie in certain parts that makes it very enjoyable and takes the experience to the next level and on the other side, it's over the top and too frequent that is distracting and lessens the enjoyment.
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post #71 of 79 Old 03-22-2020, 12:23 PM
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@Charles R

Man, you do realize by starting a thread like this you opened yourself up for critism? And that's not to say there aren't people that will agree with your opinion of it. You created this whenever you pressed the submit button, so getting put off by people's objections is all on you brutha.

FWIW, this is not an attempt to put you down in any way. I'm just pointing out how silly it is for someone to post threads like this without truly thinking it through, and then act suprised whenever they get pushback...and that appears to be the case here.

IMHO, all of this stuff (and I mean ALL) is completely subjective, so threads like these are nothing more than an open invitation to create drama/friction. You, being a veteran (tenure. not age. ) on these forums should understand this by now.

Again, this is not a slam on you, but merely to point out the obvious. So, with that said, let's all agree to disagree and just enjoy what we enjoy. And who the hell cares if the next guy/gal doesn't like the same things we do? Or not...?? Doesn't really matter.


I'll just see myself out now...


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post #72 of 79 Old 03-22-2020, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
You created this whenever you pressed the submit button, so getting put off by people's objections is all on you brutha.
I have zero issues with anyone's objections (whatever that many be).

Quote:
I'm just pointing out how silly it is for someone to post threads like this without truly thinking it through, and then act suprised whenever they get pushback...and that appears to be the case here.
Not a lot to think through... simply stating what I don't like. Pushback per se has been surprising quiet... not near the tunnel vision for many topics.
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post #73 of 79 Old 03-22-2020, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I have zero issues with anyone's objections (whatever that many be).

Not a lot to think through... simply stating what I don't like. Pushback per se has been surprising quiet... not near the tunnel vision for many topics.
Yeah, I'm really surprised that this hasn't started the usual AV verbal warfare that I've seen in previous posts. Lol

All of that aside, I hope all is well in your part of the country with all of this virus craziness going on. Take care and stay healthy...and thank the AV gods for allowing us to have our HT setups to keep us entertained!


Darrelll
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post #74 of 79 Old 03-24-2020, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I probably should have included this in my original post as it would have better explained why I don't like TR and simply find it distracting. I think it's based on expectations. When I think of enjoying a movie my mind looks forward to escaping into the film's video and audio. Anything that takes my attention away from them lessens the experience. As my mind is only "tuned" to receive them and anything else breaks the bubble.

Perhaps a related example is film colorization. I have watched several over the years and I much prefer the original. It doesn't matter that the colorized version is more lifelike. My mind knows it's not what I was expecting and rejects its influence. For one reason or another my mind is programmed to experience things on a certain level and if it's altered (outside of expectations) it interrupts the experience. Obviously alterations could improve or reduce the experience for others with different or less defined expectations.
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post #75 of 79 Old 03-24-2020, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I probably should have included this in my original post as it would have better explained why I don't like TR and simply find it distracting. I think it's based on expectations. When I think of enjoying a movie my mind looks forward to escaping into the film's video and audio. Anything that takes my attention away from them lessens the experience. As my mind is only "tuned" to receive them and anything else breaks the bubble.

Totally understandable. That's what correctly setup TR does for me. It pulls me into the movie even more, as if I were actually there.

Crappy TR setups do exactly as you describe, draw attention to themselves and distract you from the movie.

When I first heard some Buttkickers, I wasn't impressed at all. The levels were way too high, no filters, no EQ, just wrong and distracting. The guy just thought it was cool that the seats shook. Then a close friend of mine got some and they were better, because he didn't have them cranked way up just to "shake the seats." We talked about setup and he asked me to help with them. After some adjustments (MiniDSP), they were immensely better. You didn't feel the shakers anymore, you felt the bass from the subs in the seats. Night and day difference.

I get it, you're not a fan. Nothing we say or do will change that. It's just like everything else in life, different people like different things.......
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post #76 of 79 Old 03-24-2020, 06:25 PM
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post #77 of 79 Old 03-24-2020, 07:52 PM
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Hi,

I have that chart too, and I have always used it to refer to the frequency range of various musical instruments. But, FWIW, I think there is a difference between the frequency ranges often used for audio/HT purposes and the terms used to describe the properties of musical instruments in charts like that one. And, I have also seen a lot of variation in charts like these. This one just happens to be my personal favorite, as well.

In his earlier post, Darth was referring to some demarcations of frequencies which may be commonly used for audio/HT systems. And, even there the ranges vary, depending on the source. I offer one approach below, which I believe makes some sense.

For instance, the tweeters crossover from the mid-range driver in many three-way speakers at about 2500Hz. So, it seems useful to think of high-frequencies as starting at 2,500Hz, and covering the three octaves up to 20,000Hz. The mid-range could be thought of as covering the roughly three octave range from 2,500Hz to about 500Hz.

Most three-way speakers may crossover from mid-range driver to woofer at about 400Hz to 500Hz. And, bass frequencies are typically thought of as starting at about 500Hz (480Hz actually), because that is where our perception of loudness changes, according to the Equal Loudness Contours.

I personally find it useful to further subdivide bass as follows. Upper bass would cover the two octaves from about 480Hz to 120Hz. And, mid-bass would cover the roughly one octave down to about 50Hz. That range from about 50Hz to about 120Hz is the average range where most people feel the mid-bass sensation known as chest punch. 120Hz is also a useful dividing line for mid-bass, as it was the frequency chosen to be the max frequency for the LFE (low-frequency effects) channel in the original Dolby/THX standards.

Low-bass would typically be thought of as covering the frequencies from about 50Hz down to about 20Hz. That's just slightly more than an octave, and below 20Hz would be the ULF (ultra low-frequency) range. That can comprise another full octave, down to 10Hz (for instance, most systems of automated room EQ only set filters down to 10Hz), or it can go a little lower than that for some systems and some usages.

There is nothing hard and fast about any of the demarcations I have listed, but they do make some sense. And, they do correspond pretty well to speaker and subwoofer design averages, to changes in the way we hear and feel certain frequencies, to the way that bass behaves in most rooms (frequencies tend to radiate omnidirectionally below about 500Hz), and to Dolby/THX standards.

I don't think that any two people in the audio profession would be likely to use exactly the same dividing lines, especially if they started at 10Hz and just began multiplying by two for each octave. But, the method listed above does offer a pretty rational and consistent way to carve-up the 11 octaves from 10Hz to 20,000Hz.

Regards,
Mike
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post #78 of 79 Old 03-25-2020, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I have that chart too, and I have always used it to refer to the frequency range of various musical instruments. But, FWIW, I think there is a difference between the frequency ranges often used for audio/HT purposes and the terms used to describe the properties of musical instruments in charts like that one. And, I have also seen a lot of variation in charts like these. This one just happens to be my personal favorite, as well.

In his earlier post, Darth was referring to some demarcations of frequencies which may be commonly used for audio/HT systems. And, even there the ranges vary, depending on the source. I offer one approach below, which I believe makes some sense.

For instance, the tweeters crossover from the mid-range driver in many three-way speakers at about 2500Hz. So, it seems useful to think of high-frequencies as starting at 2,500Hz, and covering the three octaves up to 20,000Hz. The mid-range could be thought of as covering the roughly three octave range from 2,500Hz to about 500Hz.

Most three-way speakers may crossover from mid-range driver to woofer at about 400Hz to 500Hz. And, bass frequencies are typically thought of as starting at about 500Hz (480Hz actually), because that is where our perception of loudness changes, according to the Equal Loudness Contours.

I personally find it useful to further subdivide bass as follows. Upper bass would cover the two octaves from about 480Hz to 120Hz. And, mid-bass would cover the roughly one octave down to about 50Hz. That range from about 50Hz to about 120Hz is the average range where most people feel the mid-bass sensation known as chest punch. 120Hz is also a useful dividing line for mid-bass, as it was the frequency chosen to be the max frequency for the LFE (low-frequency effects) channel in the original Dolby/THX standards.

Low-bass would typically be thought of as covering the frequencies from about 50Hz down to about 20Hz. That's just slightly more than an octave, and below 20Hz would be the ULF (ultra low-frequency) range. That can comprise another full octave, down to 10Hz (for instance, most systems of automated room EQ only set filters down to 10Hz), or it can go a little lower than that for some systems and some usages.

There is nothing hard and fast about any of the demarcations I have listed, but they do make some sense. And, they do correspond pretty well to speaker and subwoofer design averages, to changes in the way we hear and feel certain frequencies, to the way that bass behaves in most rooms (frequencies tend to radiate omnidirectionally below about 500Hz), and to Dolby/THX standards.

I don't think that any two people in the audio profession would be likely to use exactly the same dividing lines, especially if they started at 10Hz and just began multiplying by two for each octave. But, the method listed above does offer a pretty rational and consistent way to carve-up the 11 octaves from 10Hz to 20,000Hz.

Regards,
Mike
I get where you are going with this, and from a driver-centric POV it makes sense. However (you knew that was coming), from a purely music listening POV, is it the best approach? I much prefer an approach that puts those crossover points squarely within a defined range, because getting that right is as important (perhaps more so) as the native frequency response of the drivers themselves. Crossover topology meets driver characteristics in this range, and the result can make or break the sound quality you hear.

Granted, as a layman in the field, I am less focused on the internals (although I do have an interest in how things work), and more focused on the result. Given your more technical background, I understand why you appreciate the approach you expound, but I see it as an artificial boundary (not that every other approach isn't also artificial, in it's own right). It's just that the interfaces may not be as visible using the driver-centric approach, whereas, if the interface is right in the middle of a range, then it can't be hidden and can't be overlooked, as humans are wont to do. It's kind of an esoteric argument, and there is always more than one way to skin a cat ...

All that really matters is the result, and there are as many ways to get there as there are stars in the sky. We all work in a way that makes sense to us (any other approach is futile), and our best work comes from that core of understanding.

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post #79 of 79 Old 03-26-2020, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by hd0823 View Post
Being on a suspended floor with alot if sub firepower I get a ton of tactile response and it adds so much to the experience I haven't had one person say they disliked it at any of the g2gs I've hosted. It really makes you feel as if your in the movie. Also if everything is set up right everything will blend well together. If you get to experience a properly setup room you definitely will understand why everyone likes it so much.

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Absolutely agree. My theater is in a " bonus room " over a garage. I now have subs in 4 locations - either side of my screen in front, and L / R behind the seating. And I have plenty of bass traps. " Fury " and " Hacksaw Ridge " ( just to mention 2 movies ) make you feel like you are really there ! I get plenty of tactile response from my 6 subs and the room. Guests love it. So do I !
Craig Peer is offline  
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