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post #31 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
That could potentially be taken a step further. In my case the RS1 has what I would consider a 'rich' sound, instead of 'thick' as the S1 did, yet it seems the distortion profile is lower. It's likely semantics, depending upon how someone describes what they hear, but for me at least I wouldn't use thick any longer. It's more transparent, despite the obvious presence.


Thanks Jim. That is a great way to describe the sound of the new JTR drivers.


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post #32 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
For you personally, but I doubt you speak for everyone else. If you don't like low distortion, I agree you wouldn't like the high quality Neo pro drivers being used. Some prefer the thicker sound that higher distortion subs produce.

As long as the driver has enough clean excursion to produce the beep bass levels needed, a lighter cone with higher sensitivity and a strong motor makes for a better overall sub.

Fortunately, there's more than one way to skin the cat. You can use a good driver with servo. Or just use a great driver. Funk uses a great approach of exceptionally high quality drivers that seem to have both very good excursion and high sensitivity.
Not to start ****, as I personally think companies offering these super high quality, high sensitivity pro drivers in products is great, more variety and choices for the consumers is always good.

But...till we see actual FR,output compression and distortion measurements (even in-house measurements) of these products (as a whole) - can we know for sure exactly how well they will perform (objectively speaking, as I know end users love them )? Or state that they WILL have lower distortion than other products not using the same drivers?
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post #33 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Would there be a noticeable sound quality and SPL/extension difference between similar Rythmik and PSA subs? For example: G25HP vs. 3012, F18 vs. S1812, FV18 vs. V18 IPAL. I think if they are pretty similar, I would just pick based on looks, warranty, price, etc.

With isolation pad like Subdude underneath, would there be a noticeable difference in mechanical vibration transmitted to room between dual opposed sealed, sealed, and ported? It's new house with 2x6 structure, but floor is floating vinyl plank. I want to minimize the vibration from sub cabinet transferring to room.

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post #34 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 02:15 PM
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The Rythmik FV18 is more of a deep bass sub than the PSA V18 Ipal. When Josh Ricci (data-bass.com), tested the FV18 he measured 94 db at 10Hz, 2 meter groundplane. The Rythmik FV18 is also bigger, heavier and more flexible than the V18 Ipal.
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post #35 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
JTR has a thick sound signature but very low distortion so getting the thicker sound does not necessarily mean high distortion. I am sure you already know that but your comment could be misunderstood by some
Look at the distortion of this driver above 40 Hz:

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c48...12ec?_k=olehgl

Or these:

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c3c...419d?_k=lwt1aq

Or:
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5b11...9d72?_k=knt2jn

Other companies make great subs, but take a look at the distortion of most other subs on data-bass. The pro drivers are better in this department.
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post #36 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Look at the distortion of this driver above 40 Hz:

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c48...12ec?_k=olehgl

Or these:

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c3c...419d?_k=lwt1aq

Or:
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5b11...9d72?_k=knt2jn

Other companies make great subs, but take a look at the distortion of most other subs on data-bass. The pro drivers are better in this department.

Show me the distortion levels in a system. We have seen drivers tests by themselves many times. Also why look above 40hz only? Keeping distortion low at low frequencies is a bigger task. JTR distortion levels are for the complete sub. The point Nathan has made and many others is that the driver sensitivity is only component, important but there are other factors. I am not saying the pro audio systems would have higher distortion but till have some measurements (even in house) it’s speculation.


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post #37 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Show me the distortion levels in a system. We have seen drivers tests by themselves many times. Also why look above 40hz only? Keeping distortion low at low frequencies is a bigger task. JTR distortion levels are for the complete sub. The point Nathan has made and many others is that the driver sensitivity is only component, important but there are other factors. I am not saying the pro audio systems would have higher distortion but till have some measurements (even in house) it’s speculation.


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If you think the information provided on data-bass with drivers pushed for as much power as they can possibly safely handle without exploding, and still showing very low single digit distortion, isn't a valid measurement, then I'm sure no additional facts will influence you.

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post #38 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
If you don't think the information provided on data-bass for drivers pushed for as much power as they can possibly safely handle without exploding, and still showing very low single digit distortion, then I'm sure no additional facts will influence you.


Of course they would. Just need to the exact product measured and tested. Whether that happens is another matter.

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post #39 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Show me the distortion levels in a system. We have seen drivers tests by themselves many times. Also why look above 40hz only? Keeping distortion low at low frequencies is a bigger task. JTR distortion levels are for the complete sub. The point Nathan has made and many others is that the driver sensitivity is only component, important but there are other factors. I am not saying the pro audio systems would have higher distortion but till have some measurements (even in house) it’s speculation.


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You can look at the JTR S2 as a pretty valid comparison. It has incredible low end output and is an amazing sealed sub. Yet still has distortion that skyrockets up to 90% down low....thats the nature of sealed subs that are pushed hard down low. That's why I said look at the distortion up in the more audible range. 9% on the 120 dB sweep with two drivers. Compare this with a single pro audio 18 with 2% distortion at 120 dB.

Another comparison using what many consider to be some of the cleanest, lowest distortion subs made. Rythmiks *very* low distortion, excellent F18, with servo control, produces more distortion at 115 dB than a pro audio 18 at 5 dB higher output. Double the output with less distortion.

Pro audio drivers do mid and upper bass better. The facts are there. They don't do low bass as good as the JTR subs do. There's always a compromise.
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post #40 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 07:27 PM
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having low distortion doesnt equate to better sound for many.

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post #41 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
Would there be a noticeable sound quality and SPL/extension difference between similar Rythmik and PSA subs? For example: G25HP vs. 3012, F18 vs. S1812, FV18 vs. V18 IPAL. I think if they are pretty similar, I would just pick based on looks, warranty, price, etc.

With isolation pad like Subdude underneath, would there be a noticeable difference in mechanical vibration transmitted to room between dual opposed sealed, sealed, and ported? It's new house with 2x6 structure, but floor is floating vinyl plank. I want to minimize the vibration from sub cabinet transferring to room.
Nothing will be as inert as a dual opposed design. It's crazy how little they vibrate.

FV18 will extend lower than the PSA V18 if you go ported.

I think the G25HP and S3012 will perform similarly although I think there's a good chance the S3012 might have more output up top. Educated guess based on physics.

F18 vs S1812 will be similar imo, with a little advantage up top for the S1812. Educated guess based on physics.

Ported subs are likely to shake your floor a lot more than sealed subs.

I think all the above subs will sound great.
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post #42 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 08:22 PM
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Are you trying to imply PSA subs, that use different boxes , amps, dsp, and everything else but the same drivers, would have similar numbers than those tested on databass? This is nothing new as I have posted many many times, until we see graphs and data posted by PSA or by databass (probably never happen) for their subs, there is no need for the speculation by fan(s). PSA have been using these neo/ipal drivers in their subs lineups for more than half a year now, if the subs are measured well, don’t you think they would post them sooner rather than later? They have all the data, just choose not to post. Think about it, it does not take long to post graphs. If the owner has time to post on forums, He’s got enough time to post compression graphs and numbers.
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post #43 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Are you trying to imply PSA subs, that use different boxes , amps, dsp, and everything else but the same drivers, would have similar numbers than those tested on databass? This is nothing new as I have posted many many times, until we see graphs and data posted by PSA or by databass (probably never happen) for their subs, there is no need for the speculation by fan(s). PSA have been using these neo/ipal drivers in their subs lineups for more than half a year now, if the subs are measured well, don’t you think they would post them sooner rather than later? They have all the data, just choose not to post. Think about it, it does not take long to post graphs. If the owner has time to post on forums, He’s got enough time to post compression graphs and numbers.

after a lot of demos...Im not sold on measurements.

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post #44 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
Would there be a noticeable sound quality and SPL/extension difference between similar Rythmik and PSA subs? For example: G25HP vs. 3012, F18 vs. S1812, FV18 vs. V18 IPAL. I think if they are pretty similar, I would just pick based on looks, warranty, price, etc.
All of the Rythmik subs you listed, they are all reviewed by third party. You can easily look them up. PSA? Not even a single FR graph on their own website. I have not listened to those PSA subs, so I cannot comment on the SQ. Regarding the extension, you can look them up on the +-3db specs from Rythmik and PSA websites. They are quite different.
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post #45 of 51 Old 03-18-2020, 09:32 PM
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if you truly have a huge open space...pay attention to measurements regarding spl and freq...my 20k cuft space needs at least 4x fv25hp imo. I have 1.


my setup of 1 fv25hp and 1 fv15hp hits max 127db

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post #46 of 51 Old 03-19-2020, 07:41 AM
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^^ The v1512 being about 20ish hz tuned is quite high for today standard or at least for me. For music, it might be ok but for today action movies and beq, you are missing quite a bit of action and weight down low.

I considered the FV15HP and several others, but I simply couldn't fit a single one comfortably in my room. A single V1512 fits and I also have the flexibility to add a second one.
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post #47 of 51 Old 03-19-2020, 07:58 AM
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^^ There is not much different in size but if you can't do, you can't. The FV15 is tuned almost an octave lower which is a HUGE difference (12hz vs 20ish hz). Many folks start to realize the great benefit of low tuned sub recently.

PSA v1512: Dimensions (DxWxH): 24"x17"x25"
Rythmik FV15hp: Dimensions 24"(D) - (26" D with grille and heatsink) x 18"(W) x 24" (H )
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post #48 of 51 Old 03-19-2020, 08:52 AM
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^^ There is not much different in size but if you can't do, you can't. The FV15 is tuned almost an octave lower which is a HUGE difference (12hz vs 20ish hz). Many folks start to realize the great benefit of low tuned sub recently.

PSA v1512: Dimensions (DxWxH): 24"x17"x25"
Rythmik FV15hp: Dimensions 24"(D) - (26" D with grille and heatsink) x 18"(W) x 24" (H )

I definitely could have squeezed it in, but the extra one to two extra inches makes a difference because the subwoofer is next to a doorway on one side and a walkway on the front side, increasing the chances it will be accidentally kicked if it protrudes too far. I also had to carry it up a narrow staircase myself, so the 30 lb. lower weight was beneficial. I am sure the lower extension would be nice, but the PSA does produce a nice, clean sound within its design range.
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post #49 of 51 Old 03-21-2020, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks all. I ended up going with dual PSA S18 IPAL.
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post #50 of 51 Old 03-22-2020, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Nothing will be as inert as a dual opposed design. It's crazy how little they vibrate.

FV18 will extend lower than the PSA V18 if you go ported.

I think the G25HP and S3012 will perform similarly although I think there's a good chance the S3012 might have more output up top. Educated guess based on physics.

F18 vs S1812 will be similar imo, with a little advantage up top for the S1812. Educated guess based on physics.

Ported subs are likely to shake your floor a lot more than sealed subs.

I think all the above subs will sound great.
In speaker threads I notice you frequently recommend Revel speakers due to excellent 3rd party measurements but when it comes to Subs it seems you don't make as big of a deal. Why is that?

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post #51 of 51 Old 03-22-2020, 04:21 PM
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In speaker threads I notice you frequently recommend Revel speakers due to excellent 3rd party measurements but when it comes to Subs it seems you don't make as big of a deal. Why is that?
A fair point. With speakers, I believe the design and engineering process involved is orders of magnitude more difficult than for subwoofers. A simple on axis measurement simply does not do a good job explaining how a speaker will sound. Designing excellent speakers is not an easy task and I believe the correct, detailed measurements do a great job of ensuring one can narrow their choice(s) down and ensure they get a great sounding speaker.

Sub are much easier to design imo. Not easy, and you can't just throw any driver in any box and slap a parts express plate amp on it and have a superb product.

Having said that, the major ID players such as Hsu, Rythmik, JTR, PSA, SVS, and Funk have all proven themselves able to very competently design and engineer outstanding subs. Choose how much extension you want, ported or sealed, size, perks and aesthetics from any of these companies and your going to get a very good sub.
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