Music/HT sub for 2700 cu ft room? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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My dedicated room is 2700 cu ft, vinyl plank floor, and I sit 6-7 ft away. Music is my top priority, but I want to use for HT at 10dB below reference.

Budget is up to $2200, but I don't want to spend more than I need to comfortanly meet my SPL and sound quality requirements. I will start with 1 sub and keep adding more to widen sweetspot.

My understanding is that multi sub will have barely any impact on SPL capability. Is that right? Each doubling of sub count only adds 3dB unless they are stacked.

What would you recommend?

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post #2 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
My dedicated room is 2700 cu ft, vinyl plank floor, and I sit 6-7 ft away. Music is my top priority, but I want to use for HT at 10dB below reference.

Budget is up to $2200, but I don't want to spend more than I need to comfortanly meet my SPL and sound quality requirements. I will start with 1 sub and keep adding more to widen sweetspot.

My understanding is that multi sub will have barely any impact on SPL capability. Is that right? Each doubling of sub count only adds 3dB unless they are stacked.

What would you recommend?
That's incorrect, correctly set up, each doubling of subs adds 6dB overall (more at some frequencies/less at others) And even with that said,+3dB in the bass region is a significant difference. Unlike higher frequencies that need roughly +10dB to be perceived as "twice as loud", bass frequencies need more like 4-6dB for a perceived doubling of volume.

For mostly music - with some HT usage, I'd recommend the Rythmik FV18, and start saving for a 2nd one when possible. If you prefer sealed subs, the Rythmik F18 or G25HP

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post #3 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
Each doubling of sub count only adds 3dB.
It's 3db per doubling of displacement for the same amount of power or 3db per doubling of power. Two PB16s will be 6db louder than one PB16 for example because it's 2x the drivers AND 2x the power.

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post #4 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
Music is my top priority, but I want to use for HT at 10dB below reference.
What type of music? Some genre's require more from a subwoofer than others do.

 
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post #5 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
Music is my top priority, but I want to use for HT at 10dB below reference.
What type of music? Some genre's require more from a subwoofer than others do.
I love listening to most genres.

Movie soundtracks, classical, EDM, jpop, rap, surround sound live recordings, all kinds of rock including metal and progressive, acoustical and electric guitars, piano, etc.

If "check all the boxes" is not possible, then I think whatever would sound the best with drums and bass guitar?

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post #6 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 02:15 PM
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I recently purchased a PSA V1512 for a similar sized room and am happy with it. You could almost buy two with your budget. Beyond SQ, I decided on the V1512 because its cabinet is smaller than quite a few other ported 15" woofers, allowing it to be positioned more easily in my room, and it was easier to move to my second floor myself compared to some of the heavyweight ported subwoofers.
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post #7 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 02:38 PM
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^^ The v1512 being about 20ish hz tuned is quite high for today standard or at least for me. For music, it might be ok but for today action movies and beq, you are missing quite a bit of action and weight down low.
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post #8 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 02:52 PM
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I second the Rythmik FV18, the only thing is the FV18 is back ordered until the end of April, except for the FV18 with the paper cone. The paper cone version of the FV18 has about 3 db more output at 50Hz and above, (which you probably don't need).
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post #9 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 04:18 PM
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PSA S3012. Dual 15" extremely high quality pro audio Neo woofers. Excellent excursion, very low distortion, high sensitivity for melt your face off mid bass. Very reasonable cabinet size. Duals should give you full reference capability to below 10 Hz. One should work well for -10 MV.
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post #10 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
PSA S3012. Dual 15" extremely high quality pro audio Neo woofers. Excellent excursion, very low distortion, high sensitivity for melt your face off mid bass. Very reasonable cabinet size. Duals should give you full reference capability to below 10 Hz. One should work well for -10 MV.
Better than Rythmik G25HP?

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post #11 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 06:06 PM
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Better than Rythmik G25HP?
Maybe.
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post #12 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by simplyderp View Post
Better than Rythmik G25HP?
Only if you want your face melted off by mid-bass. Mid-bass is great for HT, but for music, a non-starter. Rythmik has been considered the music sub for some time. Unless you want to go Funk Audio ($$$), Rythmik should be what you are looking to acquire. Tight, clean, controlled bass, with plenty of tuning options to allow for seamless integration. For music, you want the subs to disappear in the room, only noticing the loss of extended bass when removed from the equation. Frankly, you could probably get away with a 12" at your normal listening level, but a 15" would give you some available overhead, when needed (1812 overture, etc).

BTW, you will want to isolate that sub from your floor by using an Auralex Subdude or the SVS Soundpath Isolation Feet. The wood plank floor will be great for an HT application, but an annoyance for serious music listening.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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post #13 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW, you will want to isolate that sub from your floor by using an Auralex Subdude or the SVS Soundpath Isolation Feet. The wood plank floor will be great for an HT application, but an annoyance for serious music listening.
I was thinking of going dual opposed sub to further reduce the mechanical energy transfer to the floor. There's acoustic damping material underneath the planks, but just want to take an extra step to avoid potential issues.

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post #14 of 51 Old 03-15-2020, 11:05 PM
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Only if you want your face melted off by mid-bass. Mid-bass is great for HT applications, but for music, a non-starter. Rythmik has been considered the music sub for some time. Unless you want to go Salk, Rythmik should be what you are looking to acquire. Tight, clean, controlled bass, with plenty of tuning options to allow for seamless integration. For music, you want the subs to disappear in the room, only noticing the loss of extended bass when removed from the equation. Frankly, you could probably get away with a 12" at your normal listening level, unless you want massive amounts of overhead available (1812 overture, etc).
I don't know...personally I think mid bass capability is even more important for a sub used primarily for music than it is for HT, that's what these high sensitivity, high-end pro audio drivers were made for

But to keep everything in perspective, the G25HP is capable of 120-124dB from 50-125Hz - so more than enough midbass for 99.99% of the population
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post #15 of 51 Old 03-16-2020, 02:47 AM
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My guess is that the S3012 will be an exceptionally clean, very low distortion sub with superb sound quality. The B&C pro Neo drivers are some of the best made.
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post #16 of 51 Old 03-16-2020, 10:02 AM
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If you are into the "high sensitivity" sound signature, I'm sure that it true. For the rest of us, not so much.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #17 of 51 Old 03-16-2020, 04:29 PM
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Why are people saying that mid-bass isn't important for music? It's 100% important for music! For drums the 40-100Hz FR is where all the magic happens. For kick drums it's the 40-60Hz range, with somewhere around 50 being the sweet spot. This is what gives you that nice chest thump.

Now, this is not to say that mid-bass isn't important for HT either, because it absolutely is. And fortunately for us, there are some fantastic subs being produced that are capable of giving you the best of both worlds, so definitely more options available now.

Since the OP is interested in music & HT, with music being the priority, I would suggest the Rythmik FV18 (paper cone), as it seems to be best all around value for his application needs/wants.

FWIW, I'm not trying to start a debate here. I'm just stating some facts from my experience in spending the better part of 15 years running sound for live bands and working in studios.


Hope this helps,

Darrell
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post #18 of 51 Old 03-16-2020, 05:10 PM
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If OP can fit an enormous cab, I agree with FV18 is a very good sub. Since he plans on going duals, I think the S3012 is also a good suggestion as, in his room size, a pair should give him reference level output full bandwidth.

So if a smaller sub is important, the dual 15's in the S3012 have the displacement of an 18" driver with 23mm of excursion. Which is higher than most 18's, less than the deep bass monsters like JTR.

Each 15 has a sensitivity of 97 dB which is *extremely* high compared to most retail or ID subs. This means more SPL with less power and very low distortion. The pair of 15's will therefore have a sensitivity of 100 dB. The amp used in the S3012 is 1900 watts RMS, 3800 watts burst. Do the math, this is one crazy little sub.

In fact, I may be acquiring one soon. For me, keeping the size smaller is important, but I know it isn't for everyone. I have sealed 18's now and, even though the cabs are basically as small as they can be for an 18" driver, I'd like to shave a few inches off....it's just a darn big box for a living room where aesthetics matter.
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post #19 of 51 Old 03-16-2020, 06:36 PM
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Each 15 has a sensitivity of 97 dB which is *extremely* high compared to most retail or ID subs. This means more SPL with less power and very low distortion. The pair of 15's will therefore have a sensitivity of 100 dB. The amp used in the S3012 is 1900 watts RMS, 3800 watts burst. Do the math, this is one crazy little sub.
Here is what Nathan Funk posted regarding driver sensitivity:
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the raw sensitivity spec on subwoofer drivers is not often very relevant under 100hz(it is an important spec, and higher is often better to a point but is affected by many other factors), where the system Q and enclosure design/alignment have much more impact on the actual resulting sensitivity vs frequency.
In case you are not aware, Rythmik has been using high sensitivity drivers for about a decade now. The papercone 18” driver used in the fv18 has a sensitivity higher than 97db.
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post #20 of 51 Old 03-16-2020, 06:56 PM
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Wow, thats pretty impressive if the drivers in Rythmik subs are indeed that high in sensitivity.

Nathan certainly knows more than I regarding designing subwoofers. Not sure how much I agree with rated sensitivity not mattering under 100 Hz though. My drivers have a sensitivity rating of 95 dB. In a 4 ft^3 sealed cab, they are *above* 95 dB sensitive everywhere over 50 Hz, and reach 98 dB by 100 Hz. I'd say that's very relevant, especially on music where it won't take much power to produce big transients.

The Rythmik drivers I've seen don't *appear* to have that high of sensitivity. I find it very surprising they are that high considering the lightest, best quality pro audio drivers in the world are usually in the 97-99 dB range, and this is simply not the type of driver Rythmik uses. I haven't measured a Rythmik driver or seen one tested to reveal sensitivity so I obviously don't know for sure. But I would find it very surprising. Interesting.
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post #21 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 09:11 AM
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Wow, thats pretty impressive if the drivers in Rythmik subs are indeed that high in sensitivity.

Nathan certainly knows more than I regarding designing subwoofers. Not sure how much I agree with rated sensitivity not mattering under 100 Hz though. My drivers have a sensitivity rating of 95 dB. In a 4 ft^3 sealed cab, they are *above* 95 dB sensitive everywhere over 50 Hz, and reach 98 dB by 100 Hz. I'd say that's very relevant, especially on music where it won't take much power to produce big transients.

The Rythmik drivers I've seen don't *appear* to have that high of sensitivity. I find it very surprising they are that high considering the lightest, best quality pro audio drivers in the world are usually in the 97-99 dB range, and this is simply not the type of driver Rythmik uses. I haven't measured a Rythmik driver or seen one tested to reveal sensitivity so I obviously don't know for sure. But I would find it very surprising. Interesting.



I did say, "often not very relevant" I did not say that it does not matter, I also said it is important and high is good but my point is that it is not the be all end all number. Your example proves this in fact, because things can go either way, as your sensitivity is "higher" than the "rating". When determining the actual system sensitivity the raw sensitivity is more of an approximate maximum you can expect, sometimes you can get areas to exceed that, so yes high is good, but at a certain point increasing that raw spec further in a given design will decrease system sensitivity under 100hz especially in a low tuned or sealed enclosure, however sometimes its worth it if the rest of the system is designed around that as you can trade sensitivity for efficiency with positive outcome, to a point of course. While they are connected sensitivity is not the same as efficiency and can be misleading when calculating maximum output. Sensitivity is a voltage/output number, where efficiency is a power/output number, so again things can go either way you can have very high sensitivity at a given frequency but if the impedance at that point is very low the efficiency will be low and maximum output will be power limited, the amp will need a ton of current, that is harder and more expensive to have without causing distortion and lots of heat will be generated increasing compression. If the impedance is high the efficiency is high it will be voltage limited, and the amplifier has high voltage headroom the output will higher with less compression, so you can have a net gain even if you give up some sensitivity to get it depending on all those other factors.
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post #22 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 10:14 AM
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Dual Rythmik FVX15 at $1099 each fits the bill nicely and should reach your SPL goals in your 2700 cubic feet room. Great sub for music and movies
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post #23 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 11:12 AM
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I did say, "often not very relevant" I did not say that it does not matter, I also said it is important and high is good but my point is that it is not the be all end all number. Your example proves this in fact, because things can go either way, as your sensitivity is "higher" than the "rating". When determining the actual system sensitivity the raw sensitivity is more of an approximate maximum you can expect, sometimes you can get areas to exceed that, so yes high is good, but at a certain point increasing that raw spec further in a given design will decrease system sensitivity under 100hz especially in a low tuned or sealed enclosure, however sometimes its worth it if the rest of the system is designed around that as you can trade sensitivity for efficiency with positive outcome, to a point of course. While they are connected sensitivity is not the same as efficiency and can be misleading when calculating maximum output. Sensitivity is a voltage/output number, where efficiency is a power/output number, so again things can go either way you can have very high sensitivity at a given frequency but if the impedance at that point is very low the efficiency will be low and maximum output will be power limited, the amp will need a ton of current, that is harder and more expensive to have without causing distortion and lots of heat will be generated increasing compression. If the impedance is high the efficiency is high it will be voltage limited, and the amplifier has high voltage headroom the output will higher with less compression, so you can have a net gain even if you give up some sensitivity to get it depending on all those other factors.
Thanks for another excellent post, Nathan.
An ID company recently switched to high sensitive drivers in their sub line ups and fans seem to buy into high sensitivity driver that suddenly becomes the best thing going on. While it might be true for that particular company, there are many other factors that contribute to a great subwoofer.
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post #24 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 01:45 PM
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Thanks for another excellent post, Nathan.
An ID company recently switched to high sensitive drivers in their sub line ups and fans seem to buy into high sensitivity driver that suddenly becomes the best thing going on. While it might be true for that particular company, there are many other factors that contribute to a great subwoofer.
Don't get your feelings hurt. Your favorite company still makes really good subs even if another company is now using better drivers.

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post #25 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 02:41 PM
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Don't get your feelings hurt.
I really don't care for that company or any companies, so nothing hurts my feeling, why would it, really why?. I want folks/consumers to be correctly informed that high sensitivity driver is not an end game for sub as being broadcast-ed by you and fans. Funk, JTR, and Seaton have been making some of the best subwoofers without using high sensitivity drivers.

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Your favorite company still makes really good subs even if another company is now using better drivers.
That part I know and so does everyone who has owned it.
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post #26 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 03:10 PM
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Why are people saying that mid-bass isn't important for music? It's 100% important for music! For drums the 40-100Hz FR is where all the magic happens. For kick drums it's the 40-60Hz range, with somewhere around 50 being the sweet spot. This is what gives you that nice chest thump.

Now, this is not to say that mid-bass isn't important for HT either, because it absolutely is. And fortunately for us, there are some fantastic subs being produced that are capable of giving you the best of both worlds, so definitely more options available now.

Since the OP is interested in music & HT, with music being the priority, I would suggest the Rythmik FV18 (paper cone), as it seems to be best all around value for his application needs/wants.

FWIW, I'm not trying to start a debate here. I'm just stating some facts from my experience in spending the better part of 15 years running sound for live bands and working in studios.


Hope this helps,

Darrell
So, you're the guy I hear every day drive by with enough exaggerated mid-bass to shake the walls of the house .... to each their own.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #27 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 03:27 PM
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So, you're the guy I hear every day drive by with enough exaggerated mid-bass to shake the walls of the house .... to each their own.
Lol! God no! While I do love my music to have that nice punch, I prefer it to not be blaring so loud that it becomes annoying...for others as well.

FWIW, I work at a process plant and I'm subjected to loud noises most of the day, so the majority of what I listen to in my vehicle is sports radio. I'm also about to turn 50, so I'd like to preserve what hearing I have left.

And just an FYI, what I stated above didn't have anything to do with my opinion. It was just the simple fact that mid-bass is important to give you that nice chest thump when playing music. Especially in the categories that the OP specified that he enjoys. Although, you may be correct in "your opinion" of what "you" prefer, but you have to keep in mind that "you" do not speak for everyone. So yeah...to each thier own I suppose.
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post #28 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
If you are into the "high sensitivity" sound signature, I'm sure that it true. For the rest of us, not so much.
For you personally, but I doubt you speak for everyone else. If you don't like low distortion, I agree you wouldn't like the high quality Neo pro drivers being used. Some prefer the thicker sound that higher distortion subs produce.

As long as the driver has enough clean excursion to produce the beep bass levels needed, a lighter cone with higher sensitivity and a strong motor makes for a better overall sub.

Fortunately, there's more than one way to skin the cat. You can use a good driver with servo. Or just use a great driver. Funk uses a great approach of exceptionally high quality drivers that seem to have both very good excursion and high sensitivity.
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post #29 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 05:27 PM
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Some prefer the thicker sound that higher distortion subs produce.
JTR has a thick sound signature but very low distortion so getting the thicker sound does not necessarily mean high distortion. I am sure you already know that but your comment could be misunderstood by some
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post #30 of 51 Old 03-17-2020, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
JTR has a thick sound signature but very low distortion so getting the thicker sound does not necessarily mean high distortion. I am sure you already know that but your comment could be misunderstood by some
That could potentially be taken a step further. In my case the RS1 has what I would consider a 'rich' sound, instead of 'thick' as the S1 did, yet it seems the distortion profile is lower. It's likely semantics, depending upon how someone describes what they hear, but for me at least I wouldn't use thick any longer. It's more transparent, despite the obvious presence.
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