JL Gotham V2 vs Rel/PSA/SVS/Rhytmik? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
It's a brilliant price point. JL Audio understands their market well. A JL Audio customer isn't looking at PSA, JTR, or other ID companies. They *might* consider SVS.

To use a tired car analogy, A Mercedes or BMW customer isn't looking at Honda or Toyota. Someone in the market for a BMW M6 isn't considering a KIA Stinger.
Wrong analogy, you are implying the JL has better performance and it does not.
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post #62 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Wrong analogy, you are implying the JL has better performance and it does not.
Those cars might/might not have better performance, but I think the point is those customers couldn't care less. They're in the market segment not because of performance, or price to performance ratio, but what the car (or sub) says to other people. It's the implied reality, not the actual performance that matters. It's the marketing and perception that matter, not the performance.

Edit: I should add, typically though higher quality and priced items like cars and computers do outperform their cheaper counterparts, just maybe not for the increase price point value - in the case of this sub, that's probably not true, though I'm going by what others say since I've never compared it myself.
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post #63 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by corwiniii View Post
Those cars might/might not have better performance, but I think the point is those customers couldn't care less. They're in the market segment not because of performance, or price to performance ratio, but what the car (or sub) says to other people. It's the implied reality, not the actual performance that matters. It's the marketing and perception that matter, not the performance.

Edit: I should add, typically though higher quality and priced items like cars and computers do outperform their cheaper counterparts, just maybe not for the increase price point value - in the case of this sub, that's probably not true, though I'm going by what others say since I've never compared it myself.
I was going to say that, it is marketing and not knowing the truth. They don't shop for those items because all they know is what is marketed the best, not necessarily the best. There are always exceptions.

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post #64 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 11:48 AM
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Wrong analogy, you are implying the JL has better performance and it does not.
That’s not what I’m implying at all. They’re different markets. A BMW M6 isn’t really any faster than a KIA Stinger, but someone in the market for an M6 won’t give the Stinger a second look.

How about a luxury watch analogy? Someone in the market for a Rolex Submariner likely wouldn’t give a Seiko SKX 007 any consideration, despite the Seiko’s legendary horological status.

You’re buying status and luxury with the JL Audio sub. ID subs are pure performance without the luxury good status.

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post #65 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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My only question is does the Gotham V2 really out perform massive subs from ID guys like PSA and JTR?



Im curious by their design philosophy of a very powerful amplifier (4500 watts) driving relatively small drivers (13.5 inches). Would this translate to an articulation and speed level that competition cannot compete with ? For example a JTR RS2 has dual 18 i nch drivers and a lower powered 4000 watt amp.


I'm sure that's a simplistic way of looking at it but its something that still comes to my mind.

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post #66 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
My only question is does the Gotham V2 really out perform massive subs from ID guys like PSA and JTR?



Im curious by their design philosophy of a very powerful amplifier (4500 watts) driving relatively small drivers (13.5 inches). Would this translate to an articulation and speed level that competition cannot compete with ? For example a JTR RS2 has dual 18 i nch drivers and a lower powered 4000 watt amp.


I'm sure that's a simplistic way of looking at it but its something that still comes to my mind.
You can't compare the 4500 watts advertised by JL Audio to the 4000 watts advertised by JTR. The 4500 watts advertised by JL Audio is a short term output, not continuous.

People have answered your question repeatedly. No, the Gotham V2 doesn't out perform the massive subs from ID companies.
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post #67 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 01:37 PM
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Personally its down to taste. I have been lucky with the person I have dealt with in the past he always said what he likes isn't necessarily what I like and difference in rooms make a difference, I have always taken them home to try. I use these threads and reviews to reduce to try. It would be boring if all where equal.
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post #68 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 01:50 PM
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Please right the check already. Everyone has already told you no it wont. Lets go find out! you and me together. You buy it and I will listen to your tales of how it sounds! We want to hear how it sounds. I'm dying to know what a 16K+ tiny box of woofers is capable of. Beyond its stated specs of course... Only 17Hz? Must need to spend 20K to get closer to 10Hz. Lets find out. Im ready, are you?





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post #69 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 01:58 PM
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^^^Agreed^^^ At this point the OP should just purchased the Gotham V2 and be done with it. His questions will be answered one way or another.

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post #70 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 02:10 PM
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post #71 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 02:17 PM
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At the end of the day the OP can purchase what he likes that's entirely up to him. This thread give him ideas. If there was only one sub in the world this thread would not exist. No point getting upset its opinions only. Don't understand why people get so wound up.
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post #72 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
My only question is does the Gotham V2 really out perform massive subs from ID guys like PSA and JTR?

No, it doesn't.

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post #73 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 02:23 PM
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JL Gotham V2 vs Rel/PSA/SVS/Rhytmik?

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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
^^^Agreed^^^ At this point the OP should just purchased the Gotham V2 and be done with it. His questions will be answered one way or another.

i wonder how much it would cost to ship a 360lb box back to the company when someone wants to return it?


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post #74 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 02:28 PM
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i wonder how much it would cost to ship a 360lb box back to the company when someone wants to return it?


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For the amount of money it cost, return shipping should be included

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post #75 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
For the amount of money it cost, return shipping should be included

one would think, but....


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post #76 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips752 View Post
At the end of the day the OP can purchase what he likes that's entirely up to him. This thread give him ideas. If there was only one sub in the world this thread would not exist. No point getting upset its opinions only. Don't understand why people get so wound up.

Its not so much as getting upset, its the asking the same questions, getting mostly the same answer, and then questioning said answers. You are totally right. Its his money and his choice. He asked, he got answered, now he needs to act I would guess. It is the OP that has decided there is only 1 sub. Many different manufacturers have been suggested including specific models. My response was just a fun poke in the ribs.




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For the amount of money it cost, return shipping should be included

No kidding!

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post #77 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 04:31 PM
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That’s not what I’m implying at all. They’re different markets. A BMW M6 isn’t really any faster than a KIA Stinger, but someone in the market for an M6 won’t give the Stinger a second look.

How about a luxury watch analogy? Someone in the market for a Rolex Submariner likely wouldn’t give a Seiko SKX 007 any consideration, despite the Seiko’s legendary horological status.

You’re buying status and luxury with the JL Audio sub. ID subs are pure performance without the luxury good status.
I highly doubt the stinger having similar performance to a 600 HP car. The stinger goes to 60 in about 4.5 seconds and the M6 goes to 60 in 3.3 seconds. Huge difference and the BMW weighs more and has everything except the kitchen sink.

Name brand recognition and marketing is why they would not look at ID companies, they belive what they see all the time. They need a re-education on the real differences. Based on physics of the known drivers and T/sS parameters the JTR RS2 would be at least 6 dB more performance than the Gotham. It would take at least 2 Gothams to equal the performance of the RS2. I have plenty of friends who believe their JL and Paradigm stuff is the best, until I brought over some JTR gear to compare. Guess which they kept. They have no idea about these things. When I say they, I mean people with the means to buy Gothams but don't have the time to care to look around.
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post #78 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 04:38 PM
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Keep in mind it's not just about output.
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post #79 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 05:23 PM
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I highly doubt the stinger having similar performance to a 600 HP car. The stinger goes to 60 in about 4.5 seconds and the M6 goes to 60 in 3.3 seconds. Huge difference and the BMW weighs more and has everything except the kitchen sink.

Name brand recognition and marketing is why they would not look at ID companies, they belive what they see all the time. They need a re-education on the real differences. Based on physics of the known drivers and T/sS parameters the JTR RS2 would be at least 6 dB more performance than the Gotham. It would take at least 2 Gothams to equal the performance of the RS2. I have plenty of friends who believe their JL and Paradigm stuff is the best, until I brought over some JTR gear to compare. Guess which they kept. They have no idea about these things. When I say they, I mean people with the means to buy Gothams but don't have the time to care to look around.
Fine. I picked the wrong BMW. How about a garden-variety 5 series? Doesn't matter--the point is the same. JL Audio plays in a different market. It's not just about pure performance--it's about the prestige and recognizability of the brand. Same reason people buy McIntosh gear.

You can educate and re-educate ppl all you want. A couple ppl may listen, but most ppl would look at you with glazed eyes. Then buy the JL Audio because it's pretty and their friends know who JL Audio is.

We're on the same side here regarding the gear. I own dual PSA subs. My point was just to illustrate that JL Audio is a luxury brand in the world of audio and is priced accordingly. The price reflects the perceived status of the brand, not just the raw performance.

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post #80 of 186 Old 03-24-2020, 09:26 PM
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I understand what you are saying. I don’t disagree, but this is AVS forum and when you ask in here you are already different than the typical boutique brand person if asking about ID subs because those type would not care either way. The Op did ask about performance several times though.

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post #81 of 186 Old 03-25-2020, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
That’s not what I’m implying at all. They’re different markets. A BMW M6 isn’t really any faster than a KIA Stinger, but someone in the market for an M6 won’t give the Stinger a second look.

How about a luxury watch analogy? Someone in the market for a Rolex Submariner likely wouldn’t give a Seiko SKX 007 any consideration, despite the Seiko’s legendary horological status.

You’re buying status and luxury with the JL Audio sub. ID subs are pure performance without the luxury good status.
As someone who knows next to nothing about performance cars or expensive watches, in your analogies does the less expensive sports car/watch greatly EXCEED the performance in almost all metrics when compared to the much more expensive competitor? Like in your watch analogy, is the Seiko a MUCH better performing watch, but people still pay 5x (?) as much for the equivalent Rolex?


*Edit* sorry this was probably answered already

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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post #82 of 186 Old 03-25-2020, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by corwiniii View Post
Those cars might/might not have better performance, but I think the point is those customers couldn't care less. They're in the market segment not because of performance, or price to performance ratio, but what the car (or sub) says to other people. It's the implied reality, not the actual performance that matters. It's the marketing and perception that matter, not the performance.
This is called "conspicuous consumption." Bentley automobiles, Rolex watches, Mc-Mansion's etc.

Also, when you buy a Gotham, you're basically obligated to buy a $5k power cord and a $10k subwoofer cable to be able to get the "best" possible performance. This is all audio jewelry and "audio-phoolery."
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post #83 of 186 Old 03-25-2020, 08:55 AM
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One company that comes to mind sitting on their laurels was Velodyne. Not sure what market share they bask in now but they had the same approach much like JL does now. People who are informed often look elsewhere... however AV sales often don't defer to forums for advice but rather word of mouth and/or advertising.

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I think this thread should help:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/5...athom-f113-v2/

I added plots of max 20hz SPL vs size. JL do very well in output vs size albeit at a premium price.
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post #85 of 186 Old 03-25-2020, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by wloeb View Post
I think this thread should help:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/5...athom-f113-v2/

I added plots of max 20hz SPL vs size. JL do very well in output vs size albeit at a premium price.
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Where did you get the numbers for the JL audio?

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post #86 of 186 Old 03-25-2020, 10:21 AM
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I modeled the Jl 13w7 and it is 5.4 dB less than a Fi car HT3 driver at 10hz. Of course JL High passes a sealed sub so it won't get 10hz like it should. The difference was 5.1 dB at 20hz.

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post #87 of 186 Old 03-25-2020, 10:57 AM
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post #88 of 186 Old 03-25-2020, 01:13 PM
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Sorry, I am on my phone, there is no data for spl for my phone. Is there for a computer? I will have to check later.

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post #89 of 186 Old 03-25-2020, 09:02 PM
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This is a pricey but seems to be a high quality well made sub. This is for a future listening space that would be 20x30. For some real power but control is there any other subs to consider at that price point or lower?
Thanks!
If you really feel like 10k+ is what you'd like to spend on a single sub the genelec 7382A may be worth a look, produces 5dB more output than it's predecessor which was measured well many years ago.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/way-down-deep-i-genelec-hts6

It should easily outperform the jl Gotham and perhaps many of the coveted ID subs around these parts

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post #90 of 186 Old 03-28-2020, 08:04 PM
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The Gotham is simply 2 Fathom F113 in 1 cabinet.. Albeit a gorgeous one. If you must have JL Audio look into 2 Fathoms. Better placement options , less weight to move individually and able to be stacked. I currently have 2 Fathom F113 V1. Purchased the 1st one 12 years ago and for the sake of matching picked up another last year. Work flawless and sound great but if both died tomorrow I would look elsewhere. JL's prices keep rising but performance does not increase in proportion.

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