JL Gotham V2 vs Rel/PSA/SVS/Rhytmik? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 194 Old 03-16-2020, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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JL Gotham V2 vs Rel/PSA/SVS/Rhytmik?

This is a pricey but seems to be a high quality well made sub. This is for a future listening space that would be 20x30. For some real power but control is there any other subs to consider at that price point or lower?
Thanks!

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post #2 of 194 Old 03-16-2020, 10:37 PM
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JL Gotham V2 vs Rel/PSA/SVS/Rhytmik?

Yeah... $13500 for a dual 13” sub? I’m sorry but no chance this is a good pick. JL maybe makes good car subs but are easily outclassed by larger HT subs.

A two dual 15” model from Rythmik or PSA will walk over it in terms of output and musicality. Heck. You could get 5 FV25HP’s for the price of one Gotham.

Other options include 18” subs from JTR, PSA, and Rythmik though the latter only has single 18” subs and the others have dual models, and even a quad model (PSA).

Unfortunately you sacrifice space for ULF extension and output. But it’s well worth it in the end when you have an extra $10000 sitting in your wallet cause you didn’t buy a $13500 paperweight

Not even worth it to discuss Rel.

SVS should be bought only if you are too lazy to control sub volume with a remote and must use a phone app (many receivers come with a phone app btw which you can do the same...)
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)

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post #3 of 194 Old 03-16-2020, 11:25 PM
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If the Gotham is in your price range I'd be looking at some beautiful custom 18" or 21" subs from Funk Audio. Or multiples from JTR,Seaton or DSS etc and pocket the change

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post #4 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
People like you are the exact reason why everything you read on the internet should not be taken at face value and especially purchase decisions should not be based upon what you read on the internet, but instead personally auditioning the subwoofers.
So this post that is quoted was actually deleted. I’m not sure what a mod will do to my post, but please edit it instead of deleting it as there is good information here. Ive removed my response in accordance. Thanks.

OP, I actually have a dealer right next to my house. Very useful if you ask me. I pop by to hear every so often. They usually have something different out every time. I believe last time it was the F212! Beautiful sub if you ask me.

Now, OP, here’s some information from someone who knows a little bit about what he’s talking about. These JL sub drivers are designed for high excursion and high power handling, not much else than that. It’s a good sub, sure. $16500? It’s not worth a third that. It makes you wonder why the DIY guys don’t ever use JL’s 13W7 driver for a DIY sub if it’s so that much superior.

Their “musicality”, otherwise known as transient response, is not any better than that of the servo subs Rythmik uses or close to lightweight pro woofers of PSA. Even the huge custom 18” drivers made by Fi that JTR uses are quite fine in that department. They have a ginormous magnet structure to keep them in check.

Distortion wise? It’s actually quite easy. Not only are the amps lower powered (you’re going to get less excess heat from the amps and less thermal throttling from the voice coil), the drivers are larger with a higher efficiency. This means less power to get to the same output level. Distortion is also correlated to excursion, which is the JL sub’s specialty and only reason it can keep up in terms of output. Which makes someone in this thread’s claim of lowest distortion sub when pushed to the max a fallacy.

I already covered output, but I’ll rehash, 4+ 15” or larger drivers, due to their much larger surface area, will almost always walk over a pair of 13” drivers in terms of output. Not to mention you know have more amplifier power behind them since there are multiple subs.

Getting a sub to “blend” is all about room placement and integration via crossovers, phase, and delay. REW generally helps the most with this as it allows you to take a sweep of your room and you can tweak the above variables over and over till you get it right. No magic involved, and no special sub needed!

A friend of mine who lives on the east coast actually used to deal JL subs before they trimmed down their dealers last year. When I asked him about them, he described them as a prettier than most box that has a good sub driver in it. Buy a sub from Kef or Revel for much cheaper and get equivalent performance. So it’s not just me Though I don’t recommend Kef or Revel subs as is. Rythmik, PSA, JTR, SVS, etc all make better ones for cheaper

Here’s some numbers measured by an independent 3rd party. Distortion, and output

Note the low distortion and higher output. This sub by Rythmik costs $1800.


Note the high distortion and lower output. This sub by JL costs $2300.

Hopefully this helps OP!
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #5 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 05:15 AM
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$16,500 for a dual sub And us diy guys are called crazy
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post #6 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
S

Hopefully this helps OP!
A pointless comparison. The Gotham V2 is not anywhere close to the E series. Sure it's expensive and made for the 1 percenters but so is a lot of audio equipment.

As for your unilateral declaration that a single dual 15" ID sub will "walk all over the JL in output and SQ" is pure speculation on your part.

So, I'm going to have to go with- not helpful.

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post #7 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
A pointless comparison. The Gotham V2 is not anywhere close to the E series. Sure it's expensive and made for the 1 percenters but so is a lot of audio equipment.

As for your unilateral declaration that a single dual 15" ID sub will "walk all over the JL in output and SQ" is pure speculation on your part.

So, I'm going to have to go with- not helpful.
I don’t care if the Gotham is made from strands of Unobtonium using Kimber Kable connects for the sub driver. It’s made by JL, using their drivers, using their amps. Exactly like the E series. In fact I wouldn’t be so surprised if the cost/performance ratio got worse as you go up JL’s price ladder.

I amended that statement in my second post but I’ll go back and fix it just for you. After all, you can get 5+ FV25HP’s or 3+ JTR Cap4000’s for under the price of a Gotham. Speculation? Sure, go for it. I’ll speculate all day long that some 3” subwoofer can’t play nearly as loud as some other 10” sub. It’s called extrapolation, and it’s seen everywhere. You see a trend that sticks, and you apply it elsewhere.

The OP can listen to the person speculating using evidence, or they can listen to the person speculating with... what exactly? Their feelings for a sub?

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #8 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
I don’t care if the Gotham is made from strands of Unobtonium using Kimber Kable connects for the sub driver. It’s made by JL, using their drivers, using their amps. Exactly like the E series. In fact I wouldn’t be so surprised if the cost/performance ratio got worse as you go up JL’s price ladder.

I amended that statement in my second post but I’ll go back and fix it just for you. After all, you can get 5+ FV25HP’s or 3+ JTR Cap4000’s for under the price of a Gotham. Speculation? Sure, go for it. I’ll speculate all day long that some 3” subwoofer can’t play nearly as loud as some other 10” sub. It’s called extrapolation, and it’s seen everywhere. You see a trend that sticks, and you apply it elsewhere.

The OP can listen to the person speculating using evidence, or they can listen to the person speculating with... what exactly? Their feelings for a sub?
Seriously? Do you even know what speculating is? I'm done. I don't see any need to get dragged down to the lowest common denominator.

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post #9 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 07:29 PM
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The Fathom has been tested before, the Gotham would be 6 dB more.

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post #10 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Amazing information to think on, thanks. Do you guys think a Rel six pack, probably S/812 would be the better over JL? I think MSRP on that would be like $18,000. For that kind of money anything better?

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post #11 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 08:40 PM
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It depends on who you listen to. Physics is physics as spl goes.

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post #12 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
Amazing information to think on, thanks. Do you guys think a Rel six pack, probably S/812 would be the better over JL? I think MSRP on that would be like $18,000. For that kind of money anything better?
My recommendation wouldn't change one bit upping the budget from stupid overpriced to are you kidding me overpriced, except to say that with $18k to throw away, I'd get 4 JTR Captivator 4000 ULFs and hope your room doesn't have structural weaknesses.
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post #13 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 09:03 PM
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The Gotham is a dual sealed 13.5 inch driver sub. You should compare a JTR RS2 with dual 18s, or dual sealed whatever size.
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post #14 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 09:22 PM
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jl audio or rel sure do make some pretty subs. fashion is expensive, if got the coin, why not...


if you dont have a magazine cover dream home/space for them, I would probably think you got some screws loose tho. like the guy in 100k home driving 300k car.
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post #15 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
You should compare a JTR RS2 with dual 18s, or dual sealed whatever size.

^ This. A single RS2 will outperform the JL. For the same money, 4 of them would absolutely destroy the JL. Better sound quality, they will play deeper and have exponentially more output.
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post #16 of 194 Old 03-17-2020, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Yeah... $13500 for a dual 13” sub? I’m sorry but no chance this is a good pick. JL maybe makes good car subs but are easily outclassed by larger HT subs.

A two dual 15” model from Rythmik or PSA will walk over it in terms of output and musicality. Heck. You could get 5 FV25HP’s for the price of one Gotham.

Other options include 18” subs from JTR, PSA, and Rythmik though the latter only has single 18” subs and the others have dual models, and even a quad model (PSA).

Unfortunately you sacrifice space for ULF extension and output. But it’s well worth it in the end when you have an extra $10000 sitting in your wallet cause you didn’t buy a $13500 paperweight

Not even worth it to discuss Rel.

SVS should be bought only if you are too lazy to control sub volume with a remote and must use a phone app (many receivers come with a phone app btw which you can do the same...)
I dont know how or why my reply to you got deleted, but you were really exaggerating when you said the gotham v2 is easily outclassed by larger ID subs or a 15" dual ID sub walks over the gotham v2. And some people thumbed up your post, i bet these are people who haven't heard the gotham v2 next to 15" subs.

As someone who auditioned JL subs just a couple of weeks ago including the gotham v2 right next to bigger boxed 15" subs, i do not agree with what you say in the least. The gotham v2 easily held its own against a 15" dual ID sub, and when cranked up high it's cleaner sounding because JL subs are great when it comes to producing lowest distortion. I had a friend accompanying me who is a professional in the sound field for the last twenty years and amazing was his reaction when the gain knob on the gotham v2 was pushed all the way up. Any one who is doubtful of what i say, feel free to audition the gotham v2 next to 15" subs.

I'm not making an argument about price (or 'price to performance ratio'), im only making an argument on performance.

And the SPL charts you put up of the JL E112 comparing to Rhythmik FV18 is obviously not a fair comparison, simply because even though the E112 is a good subwoofer in its own right (read the audioholics review of the E112), but the Gotham v2 is in a different league than the E112. I auditioned E112, F112 v2 and Gotham v2. Also, the 'v2' Fathom, Gotham are much better than the older models. So if someone heard the older F112 , his views would not apply to the F112 v2. However, the sub in question here by the OP is the gotham v2, so you should try putting up SPL charts of gotham v2 instead of E112 when comparing against other subs. Like I said, the gotham v2 is in a different league from E112, there really is no comparison between the two in terms of SPL/output and excursion.

And as for 'musicality', i did not say JL is 'better' than others, i said all JL subs (down from their lowest models) blend in pretty well with music. There are some subs i have auditioned that sound a bit 'off' with 2.1 music (especially SVS), but JL isnt one of them.
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post #17 of 194 Old 03-18-2020, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
I dont know how or why my reply to you got deleted, but you were really exaggerating when you said the gotham v2 is easily outclassed by larger ID subs or a 15" dual ID sub walks over the gotham v2. And some people thumbed up your post, i bet these are people who haven't heard the gotham v2 next to 15" subs.

As someone who auditioned JL subs just a couple of weeks ago including the gotham v2 right next to bigger boxed 15" subs, i do not agree with what you say in the least. The gotham v2 easily held its own against a 15" dual ID sub, and when cranked up high it's cleaner sounding because JL subs are great when it comes to producing lowest distortion. I had a friend accompanying me who is a professional in the sound field for the last twenty years and amazing was his reaction when the gain knob on the gotham v2 was pushed all the way up. Any one who is doubtful of what i say, feel free to audition the gotham v2 next to 15" subs.

I'm not making an argument about price (or 'price to performance ratio'), im only making an argument on performance.

And the SPL charts you put up of the JL E112 comparing to Rhythmik FV18 is obviously not a fair comparison, simply because even though the E112 is a good subwoofer in its own right (read the audioholics review of the E112), but the Gotham v2 is in a different league than the E112. I auditioned E112, F112 v2 and Gotham v2. Also, the 'v2' Fathom, Gotham are much better than the older models. So if someone heard the older F112 , his views would not apply to the F112 v2. However, the sub in question here by the OP is the gotham v2, so you should try putting up SPL charts of gotham v2 instead of E112 when comparing against other subs. Like I said, the gotham v2 is in a different league from E112, there really is no comparison between the two in terms of SPL/output and excursion.

And as for 'musicality', i did not say JL is 'better' than others, i said all JL subs (down from their lowest models) blend in pretty well with music. There are some subs i have auditioned that sound a bit 'off' with 2.1 music (especially SVS), but JL isnt one of them.
What was the 15” ID sub you mention that you auditioned with the Gotham?

I used to have an e112 and it was a great little sub. My open floor plan was just too big and I would have needed several.
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post #18 of 194 Old 03-18-2020, 04:16 AM
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What was the 15” ID sub you mention that you auditioned with the Gotham?

I used to have an e112 and it was a great little sub. My open floor plan was just too big and I would have needed several.
They were two rhythmik models. Also heard against a paradigm defiance 15 " (x15- ported model) (though paradigm isn't an ID brand) and against this i thought gotham was easily better, even the F112v2 i auditioned prior to the gotham fared very well against it.

As for E112, yeah it's a good sub for a mid sized or smaller room, it obviously doesnt dig as deep with movies but mid bass performance is pretty good and works great for music. JL with their amps and build quality are able to extract good performance from relatively moderate sized subs like the E112. Audioholics did a very favorable review of the E112. But in comparison to E112, the Fathom models and Gotham are noticeably superior. And with the Fathom and Gotham, you also get built in EQ and a supplied mic which you dont on the E112. They call it DARO and it works quite well, if you make use of DARO, you basically dont need third party stuff like REW or audyssey.

I think the biggest complaint with JL subs people have is not performance, but pricing (and now with ID subs even more so). But something that needs to be considered with JL pricing is that JL doesnt assemble their subs in china or mexico but in the u.s. Their amps are also built in the u.s., they import some parts from outside america but the major chunk of their subwoofers are manufactured and assembled in the u.s. , so that also factors into the cost and price.

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post #19 of 194 Old 03-18-2020, 01:55 PM
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JL Gotham V2, If 16k wasn't a lot of money for me I would buy that sub, just saying..

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
As someone who auditioned JL subs just a couple of weeks ago including the gotham v2 right next to bigger boxed 15" subs, i do not agree with what you say in the least. The gotham v2 easily held its own against a 15" dual ID sub, and when cranked up high it's cleaner sounding because JL subs are great when it comes to producing lowest distortion. I had a friend accompanying me who is a professional in the sound field for the last twenty years and amazing was his reaction when the gain knob on the gotham v2 was pushed all the way up. Any one who is doubtful of what i say, feel free to audition the gotham v2 next to 15" subs.
How did you audition sub? Even just moving the acoustic center a couple feet can be enough to create audible differences in frequency response at listening position.

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post #21 of 194 Old 03-18-2020, 04:56 PM
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I have owned just about every brand. I have JL Audio Fathoms F113's for over a year. I tested them against a lot of other brands. I demoed them for a lot of people and they were well received. I even ran them with SB16's at one time and they didn't have as much output as the SVS. Then I demoed/auditioned them against dual G25HP's from Rythmik....it wasn't even close. It was a slaughter. The Rythmiks were way louder, way cleaner and way tighter. After hearing the G25HP's (probably one of the best sounding subs you can buy for under 5k) I promptly traded my JL Audios in and haven't looked back at all. JL Audios are ok for movies and good for music. They are harder to integrate with 2 channel because of the massive DSP delay, Rythmiks don't use DSP and are much easier to integrate into a 2 channel setup and sound amazing right away. Don't believe the hype, in the audio world most expensive is seldom better to someone who sells direct.

You buy JL Audio subs if you have an insane room with very little real estate, they put out a lot of sound for very little foot print. They are also high on the WAF factor. Don't be fooled though, they don't compete with big ID companies on any metric.

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post #22 of 194 Old 03-18-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Yeah... $13500 for a dual 13” sub? I’m sorry but no chance this is a good pick. JL maybe makes good car subs but are easily outclassed by larger HT subs.

A two dual 15” model from Rythmik or PSA will walk over it in terms of output and musicality. Heck. You could get 5 FV25HP’s for the price of one Gotham.

Other options include 18” subs from JTR, PSA, and Rythmik though the latter only has single 18” subs and the others have dual models, and even a quad model (PSA).

Unfortunately you sacrifice space for ULF extension and output. But it’s well worth it in the end when you have an extra $10000 sitting in your wallet cause you didn’t buy a $13500 paperweight

Not even worth it to discuss Rel.

SVS should be bought only if you are too lazy to control sub volume with a remote and must use a phone app (many receivers come with a phone app btw which you can do the same...)
you cant adjust your sub gain with a phone app.
get the facts straight.
only svs owners can do this.
svs rules.
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post #23 of 194 Old 03-18-2020, 06:01 PM
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Setup your subs correctly and you should not have to touch anything.

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post #24 of 194 Old 03-18-2020, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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What about dual JTR RS2? Would such massive subs be able to keep up with music in terms of speed and resolution ? Would smaller faster subs be a better choice for music ?

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post #25 of 194 Old 03-18-2020, 08:22 PM
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You do know that is a complete myth. I mean why not use 8 inch subs rather than 13.5.

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post #26 of 194 Old 03-19-2020, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
you cant adjust your sub gain with a phone app.
get the facts straight.
only svs owners can do this.
svs rules.

Ai! I’m sorry! I bow down to your superior phone app.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #27 of 194 Old 03-19-2020, 02:13 AM
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JL Gotham V2 vs Rel/PSA/SVS/Rhytmik?

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
What about dual JTR RS2? Would such massive subs be able to keep up with music in terms of speed and resolution ? Would smaller faster subs be a better choice for music ?

It’s called transient response, or “quickness” or “musicality”. It’s easily measured and the JTR’s are very impressive in that department. They have a large motor structure and suspension to keep the big heavy cone under control.

The smaller subs, despite contrary belief, are not flat out “faster” due to their smaller size. It’s because of the smaller cone and lighter weight that they may be THOUGHT of as faster. Many times they aren’t any faster. And some may in fact be slower than something like a PSA sub which use lightweight pro style drivers.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #28 of 194 Old 03-19-2020, 02:21 AM
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And the fact of the matter is a smaller cone will have to move much further to produce the same SPL - and the further it moves, the higher the distortion - there is no free lunch with this stuff
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TV: Panasonic 65" P65ST60 AVR: Denon AVR-X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Seaton SubMersives x 3
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post #29 of 194 Old 03-19-2020, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muscles View Post
I have owned just about every brand. I have JL Audio Fathoms F113's for over a year. I tested them against a lot of other brands. I demoed them for a lot of people and they were well received. I even ran them with SB16's at one time and they didn't have as much output as the SVS. Then I demoed/auditioned them against dual G25HP's from Rythmik....it wasn't even close. It was a slaughter. The Rythmiks were way louder, way cleaner and way tighter. After hearing the G25HP's (probably one of the best sounding subs you can buy for under 5k) I promptly traded my JL Audios in and haven't looked back at all. JL Audios are ok for movies and good for music. They are harder to integrate with 2 channel because of the massive DSP delay, Rythmiks don't use DSP and are much easier to integrate into a 2 channel setup and sound amazing right away. Don't believe the hype, in the audio world most expensive is seldom better to someone who sells direct.

You buy JL Audio subs if you have an insane room with very little real estate, they put out a lot of sound for very little foot print. They are also high on the WAF factor. Don't be fooled though, they don't compete with big ID companies on any metric.

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F113? I thought the OP asked about the Gotham v2? Gotham v2 (G213v2) is a dual driver model, F113 and lower models are not. Why dont you reply on the basis of what the OP is asking? You bring up the F113, another guy comes in and posts SPL charts of the E112. That's like a person coming to ask a question about a B&W 800 series speaker's performance and you reply with your experience of a 700 series speaker or pulling out frequency response graphs of a 600 series speaker. Doesn't make sense. The price difference between the Gotham v2 and F113v2 is about 10k dollars or a little more than that. You think there would be no difference between a Gotham v2 and F113? (even if you did dual F113's , the Gotham v2 would cost about 5000 dollars or a little more).

Have you heard the gotham v2 next to SVS SB16? Personally, i have heard SVS sealed box models, including SB16 and SB13 ultra, and they are not as good as the gotham v2, there is audible distortion on the SB16 and SB13 ultra as you push them to their limits, gotham v2 remains clean. And secondly these SVS subs dont blend in well with music. I have always found SVS (regardless of model) a bit off with music. JL does better with music than SVS. Rhythmik is good with music and i can agree about rhythmik being easier to integrate into 2.1 as it bypasses any DSP.

PS- Dont know what some of you guys are on about, in the end I dont feel the need to convince people fond of ID subs, i heard the Gotham v2 just about 15 days ago (in an acoustically treated room) and I'll trust what my ears heard. This is one really awesome sounding piece of gear. Price wise it does make it hard for me to order it, but i told my dealer to inform me if there is ever a deal running on this model where i can buy it for anything under 10000 bucks, i would be interested in it. Or if i can get it used between 5000-10000 somewhere, i would do it.

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post #30 of 194 Old 03-19-2020, 07:54 AM
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A JL product besting a non JL product in a JL dealer store is shocking. Why do you think a Gotham would sound different than two Fathoms? Two of the same drivers. What we hear in bass frequencies is variations in amplitude of the response, all that other stuff is just talk. There are far more experienced people in this industry who have written books on the subject matter. Comparing products at a dealer is one of the worst things you can do and is what dealers want. If the Gotham sound better to you than it was because it produced a better response for you in that particular room and setup. You do know one can easily make it sound worse than the others as well. The Gotham does look really cool though and you pay big bucks for it too. Ever hear of blind testing?

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