Sub help, 1 Beast, duals or mix and match... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 03-17-2020, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Sub help, 1 Beast, duals or mix and match...

I currently have a gigantic space to fill. 27 x 19x 8, with dedicated 11.2 Atmos setup with an HSU MBM 12, and a HSU VTF 3 MK 3 with turbo providing the bass. It currently is an amazing combo, but I would like add to what I have. Bonus: I love the mid bass visceral feel in the sound stage...

I have the HSU 15h mk2 and the SVS PB 4000 in my sights.

Should I add the 15h with my current setup and hope they play nice together?

Replace the 3.3 with 15h, by selling the 3.3 with turbo>

Sell 3.3, and get dual pb 2000s?

Say eff it, and get the PB 4000

Thank you in advance...

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post #2 of 22 Old 03-17-2020, 06:13 PM
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Grab a pair of VTF-15H Mk2 and add to what you've got. After getting a MiniDSP 2x4HD and Umik-1 and REW.

FWIW, I run a pair of TN1220HO subs (500W HSU amp on each), and a VTF-15H Mk2 right now. VTF-15H Mk2 #2 is in my truck to be hooked up after work tonight; I'm in a 2350cu ft room.

The TN's play nice with the VTF-15H Mk2; and a VTF-3.3 with turbo is probably slightly better than my TN pair, so I doubt you'll have any issues with them playing nice together.
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post #3 of 22 Old 03-17-2020, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sorny View Post
Grab a pair of VTF-15H Mk2 and add to what you've got. After getting a MiniDSP 2x4HD and Umik-1 and REW.

FWIW, I run a pair of TN1220HO subs (500W HSU amp on each), and a VTF-15H Mk2 right now. VTF-15H Mk2 #2 is in my truck to be hooked up after work tonight; I'm in a 2350cu ft room.

The TN's play nice with the VTF-15H Mk2; and a VTF-3.3 with turbo is probably slightly better than my TN pair, so I doubt you'll have any issues with them playing nice together.

I forgot to mention the budget is 1500 ish... The PB 4000 is an open box, with full warranty locally.

I can't imagine needing that damn much, do I?

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post #4 of 22 Old 03-17-2020, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ccarzoo View Post
I forgot to mention the budget is 1500 ish... The PB 4000 is an open box, with full warranty locally.

I can't imagine needing that damn much, do I?
get the pb-4000.
youll be shocked, i promise
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post #5 of 22 Old 03-17-2020, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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get the pb-4000.
youll be shocked, i promise

Do you have one> If so, is it you first, or did it replace another?

My 3.3 turbo, is a beast. but the pb has a bigger driver,, bigger cabinet and like 4 x the RMS.

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post #6 of 22 Old 03-17-2020, 06:48 PM
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Do you have one> If so, is it you first, or did it replace another?

My 3.3 turbo, is a beast. but the pb has a bigger driver,, bigger cabinet and like 4 x the RMS.
had it a year now and it still puts a smile on my face.
bass like moost people have never heard
makes no sense at times the sounds that come out of this thing.
yea, 1st one ive ever owned.
its a serious sub, ive never come close to pushing it to its limits

btw, wth is a 3.3 turbo??
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post #7 of 22 Old 03-17-2020, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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had it a year now and it still puts a smile on my face.
bass like moost people have never heard
makes no sense at times the sounds that come out of this thing.
yea, 1st one ive ever owned.
its a serious sub, ive never come close to pushing it to its limits

btw, wth is a 3.3 turbo??
The VTF-3 Mk3 in maximum output mode (both ports open, no turbo) would have the following THD-limited output:

32-62Hz (avg): 107.9db (approx.)
25-62Hz (avg): 107.3db
20-62Hz (avg): 106.6db
25Hz: 105db (approx.)
20Hz: 103db
Frequency response: 24 to 85 Hz ±1.6 dB

This is pretty impressive, especially for a subwoofer that is on sale right now for $629!

Regarding the VTF-3 Mk3 with Turbo, there is something strange about the deep bass results (16-25Hz). The THD-limited output at these frequencies should be much higher. For instance, the 20Hz output should be very close between maximum output mode and turbo mode, and 16Hz should be close to the 20Hz output. I noticed that there was a comment made in the review about needing to prop the unit up against the wall to get it to stay in place. This shouldn't be necessary. After all, how else could we test the unit outdoors with good results then? What might have happened is that there was an air leak from the turbocharger due to lack of a good seal between turbo ports and base enclosure. Or perhaps even the carpet grip was not placed underneath the turbo to keep it from moving around. Also, microphone position may have had some affect depending on where it was placed. It is important to keep the microphone equidistant from all radiating sources (ie. driver and port centroid) to ensure an accurate representation of the actual acoustic output of the subwoofer. Dr. Hsu will be contacting TN to discuss.

I would like to thank Sound and Vision magazine for the very kind review!
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post #8 of 22 Old 03-17-2020, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ccarzoo View Post
I forgot to mention the budget is 1500 ish... The PB 4000 is an open box, with full warranty locally.

I can't imagine needing that damn much, do I?
With $1500 to spend, I'd get the VTF-15H Mk2, MiniDSP 2x4HD, and Umik-1. REW is free, but those 3 bits of hardware will about chew up the $1500 and do wonders for your bass in room.

The magic that results from fixing what the room breaks at bass frequencies is hard to overstate. It's always best to fix via placement and additional subs, and finally EQ, but you can't even properly integrate multiple subs without something like a MiniDSP anyway.

MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.
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post #9 of 22 Old 03-18-2020, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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With $1500 to spend, I'd get the VTF-15H Mk2, MiniDSP 2x4HD, and Umik-1. REW is free, but those 3 bits of hardware will about chew up the $1500 and do wonders for your bass in room.

The magic that results from fixing what the room breaks at bass frequencies is hard to overstate. It's always best to fix via placement and additional subs, and finally EQ, but you can't even properly integrate multiple subs without something like a MiniDSP anyway.
I have xt32 in a Denon 6400h, is this not good enough?

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post #10 of 22 Old 03-18-2020, 03:49 PM
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HSU VTF 3 MK5 will get you 95% of the performance of any sub under $1500.
It punches WAY above it its weight.

Dual VTF3 MK5 would be a monumental upgrade
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post #11 of 22 Old 03-18-2020, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
get the pb-4000.
youll be shocked, i promise
+1

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Originally Posted by ccarzoo View Post
I forgot to mention the budget is 1500 ish... The PB 4000 is an open box, with full warranty locally.

I can't imagine needing that damn much, do I?
Hi,

You do have a room that is consider to be on the large size, at 27 x 19 x 8ft for a total of 4104^3. I had two PB13, that got replace with the PB4000 and my room is 1728^3. Not only it is not too much for the size of room. You may want to add a second in the future, depending of your listening level.

Just for info, I have been extremely happy with my dual PB13 for ten years
And only replace them, since I got the itch for a change. And got dual 18" subs.

When it come sub/s suggestion, my advise is always the same for a restricted budget. Buy the best single sub you can afford, and if needed. Start saving for a second down the road.



Darth
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post #12 of 22 Old 03-18-2020, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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+1



Hi,

You do have a room that is consider to be on the large size, at 27 x 19 x 8ft for a total of 4104^3. I had two PB13, that got replace with the PB4000 and my room is 1728^3. Not only it is not too much for the size of room. You may want to add a second in the future, depending of your listening level.

Just for info, I have been extremely happy with my dual PB13 for ten years
And only replace them, since I got the itch for a change. And got dual 18" subs.

When it come sub/s suggestion, my advise is always the same for a restricted budget. Buy the best single sub you can afford, and if needed. Start saving for a second down the road.



Darth

It is just a shade under 5000 cubic feet. The walls are soundproofed, the floor is carpeted, and the 3.3 turbo has been a monster for a very long time. Is the upgrade to the pb 4000, going to blow my doors off?

"Go Blue"
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post #13 of 22 Old 03-18-2020, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ccarzoo View Post
It is just a shade under 5000 cubic feet. The walls are soundproofed, the floor is carpeted, and the 3.3 turbo has been a monster for a very long time. Is the upgrade to the pb 4000, going to blow my doors off?
Like I said in my previous, it is a big space to fill. And a second sub, may be require in the future. No matter the brand or the model, all I know about the HSU subs. They are a very good value for the money you paid, while some others at double the price do offer more.

Just like my new subs;
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV18.html
That said, you can't go wrong by buying from HSU, SVS, PSA, JTR, Rythmik and some few others. It's all depend of your need, and end goal. And if Customer Service is important to you, the underline ones offer the best one. For very fast response, and taking care of you. Two of them from personal experience, and the other by reading on this forum through many threads. And that is not saying, the other two will not look after you.


Darth
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post #14 of 22 Old 03-19-2020, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ccarzoo View Post
I have xt32 in a Denon 6400h, is this not good enough?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarzoo View Post
It is just a shade under 5000 cubic feet. The walls are soundproofed, the floor is carpeted, and the 3.3 turbo has been a monster for a very long time. Is the upgrade to the pb 4000, going to blow my doors off?

Hi,

I would say no to both questions. If you stay with the HSU subs that have been recommended, XT-32 will probably do a pretty good job of EQing the combined frequency response. If you start mixing-in a different brand of ported sub, it is likely that you will get phase cancellation, which Audyssey can't fix. If so, you just won't hear some of the bass frequencies that you would hear now, with the subs you have now.

Mixing ported subs, with different port tunes, and with different frequency responses, is not a good idea. If you try it, you will probably need REW and a miniDSP to straighten things out again. They can be valuable in any event, but they would be even more necessary in that circumstance.

I don't think that a single PB4000 is going to blow your doors off. The real strength of the PB4000 is for the lower frequencies (<20Hz). In your first post, you said that you really liked strong mid-bass, and the visceral response it gives you. The PB4000 won't really be any stronger in the mid-bass than the HSU's. If more mid-bass is what you are after, then I don't know that even dual PB4000's would be as good as simply adding a couple of MK5's, or MK2's.

Having multiple subs isn't overkill. It allows you to get a better overall frequency response, if you are able to spread them out on opposing walls. But, you would like for the subs to have similar port tunes and frequency responses if possible. That way, they reinforce each other in positive ways and add to the total bass at all (or at least most) frequencies.

If you do decide that you want to make a complete pivot to dual PB4000's, I would sell the HSU subs and start over from scratch. Mixing different ported subwoofer brands and models is a real crapshoot. On the other hand, if you like what your 3.3 gives you now, I would probably add to it with a pair of HSU 15" subs. Long-term, I might work toward three identical subs, but you could play that by ear. Literally!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Hi,

I would say no to both questions. If you stay with the HSU subs that have been recommended, XT-32 will probably do a pretty good job of EQing the combined frequency response. If you start mixing-in a different brand of ported sub, it is likely that you will get phase cancellation, which Audyssey can't fix. If so, you just won't hear some of the bass frequencies that you would hear now, with the subs you have now.

Mixing ported subs, with different port tunes, and with different frequency responses, is not a good idea. If you try it, you will probably need REW and a miniDSP to straighten things out again. They can be valuable in any event, but they would be even more necessary in that circumstance.

I don't think that a single PB4000 is going to blow your doors off. The real strength of the PB4000 is for the lower frequencies (<20Hz). In your first post, you said that you really liked strong mid-bass, and the visceral response it gives you. The PB4000 won't really be any stronger in the mid-bass than the HSU's. If more mid-bass is what you are after, then I don't know that even dual PB4000's would be as good as simply adding a couple of MK5's, or MK2's.

Having multiple subs isn't overkill. It allows you to get a better overall frequency response, if you are able to spread them out on opposing walls. But, you would like for the subs to have similar port tunes and frequency responses if possible. That way, they reinforce each other in positive ways and add to the total bass at all (or at least most) frequencies.

If you do decide that you want to make a complete pivot to dual PB4000's, I would sell the HSU subs and start over from scratch. Mixing different ported subwoofer brands and models is a real crapshoot. On the other hand, if you like what your 3.3 gives you now, I would probably add to it with a pair of HSU 15" subs. Long-term, I might work toward three identical subs, but you could play that by ear. Literally!

Regards,
Mike
I think something is getting lost... I was just going to add (1) vtf 15h to the 3.3 ... Or sell the 3.3 and get the pb 4000. The deep bass is certainly a plus if it can be added, I was jsut looking to double the output of what I had. I thought the 1200 watts of the PB 4000 with a bigger driver, would be more impact than one 3.3 with turbo.. I just watched the Atmos 4k track of John Wick again yesterday, and whatever the sledgehammer sound freq is, I want more of that, hitting harder. Does this help?

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post #16 of 22 Old 03-19-2020, 08:01 AM
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I think something is getting lost... I was just going to add (1) vtf 15h to the 3.3 ... Or sell the 3.3 and get the pb 4000. The deep bass is certainly a plus if it can be added, I was jsut looking to double the output of what I had. I thought the 1200 watts of the PB 4000 with a bigger driver, would be more impact than one 3.3 with turbo.. I just watched the Atmos 4k track of John Wick again yesterday, and whatever the sledgehammer sound freq is, I want more of that, hitting harder. Does this help?
Quote:
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I forgot to mention the budget is 1500 ish... The PB 4000 is an open box, with full warranty locally.

I can't imagine needing that damn much, do I?

The second post I am quoting may be the reason for the confusion. It appeared to several posters that you would be able to keep your VTF-3 MK3, and spend $1500 to add something else. In that case, you would have been able to add two more HSU's to augment what you already have. As for needing that much subwoofer, you are asking that question on the wrong forum. Many people can imagine needing that much, and more, in a larger than 4000^3 room.

If you do not have $1500 to spend, and your budget if you keep the MK3, would only allow you to add a single 15" HSU subwoofer, then I agree with something that Darth said earlier. It is almost always better to start with the single largest and best subwoofer that you can afford. I looked up the measured test results for the MK3, and they were not as impressive as I would have expected. But, I also didn't realize that the subwoofer was tested back in 2007. Subwoofers have come a long way since then. Here are the Audioholics test results:

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...ments-analysis

A single PB4000 will be much better than the MK3, at every frequency, and you would notice the most difference in the lower frequencies. The sledgehammer strikes, in the John Wick movie, have both mid and low-bass frequencies, but I think it's the lower bass that you really want more of. Meanwhile, your MBM could continue to provide you with some of the mid-bass chest punch you like. That would especially be the case if you put it directly behind your listening position, close to the seat back, and elevated it on something to get it up closer to chest height. Having the MBM firing right into your back can be a cool sensation, if you really like mid-bass.

Alternatively, you could sell your MK3 and buy two of the less expensive VTF-3 MK5's for almost the same $1500. (It would be about $1700.) Two of those subs would outperform a single PB4000. So, that would still be a viable option. But, I still like the idea of starting with the largest (and lowest-frequency) sub that you can, and adding a second identical large sub when you can. That way you end-up with a superior audio system long-term. In any event, you do have two good choices available to you for about $1500.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #17 of 22 Old 03-19-2020, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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The second post I am quoting may be the reason for the confusion. It appeared to several posters that you would be able to keep your VTF-3 MK3, and spend $1500 to add something else. In that case, you would have been able to add two more HSU's to augment what you already have. As for needing that much subwoofer, you are asking that question on the wrong forum. Many people can imagine needing that much, and more, in a larger than 4000^3 room.

If you do not have $1500 to spend, and your budget if you keep the MK3, would only allow you to add a single 15" HSU subwoofer, then I agree with something that Darth said earlier. It is almost always better to start with the single largest and best subwoofer that you can afford. I looked up the measured test results for the MK3, and they were not as impressive as I would have expected. But, I also didn't realize that the subwoofer was tested back in 2007. Subwoofers have come a long way since then. Here are the Audioholics test results:

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...ments-analysis

A single PB4000 will be much better than the MK3, at every frequency, and you would notice the most difference in the lower frequencies. The sledgehammer strikes, in the John Wick movie, have both mid and low-bass frequencies, but I think it's the lower bass that you really want more of. Meanwhile, your MBM could continue to provide you with some of the mid-bass chest punch you like. That would especially be the case if you put it directly behind your listening position, close to the seat back, and elevated it on something to get it up closer to chest height. Having the MBM firing right into your back can be a cool sensation, if you really like mid-bass.

Alternatively, you could sell your MK3 and buy two of the less expensive VTF-3 MK5's for almost the same $1500. (It would be about $1700.) Two of those subs would outperform a single PB4000. So, that would still be a viable option. But, I still like the idea of starting with the largest (and lowest-frequency) sub that you can, and adding a second identical large sub when you can. That way you end-up with a superior audio system long-term. In any event, you do have two good choices available to you for about $1500.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for all of your help guys, I pulled the trigger on a 15h MK2 today. If it doesn't play nice with the 3.3 turbo, I will sell it, and buy another 15h if need be. In the end, i didn't want to DIY, and am within 30 minutes of SVS; and didn't want to hear a pb4000, and want another right away.
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post #18 of 22 Old 03-20-2020, 06:21 AM
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My recommendation about MiniDSP 2x4HD and Umik-1 still stands, BTW. I think you made a good choice on the subwoofer, now you should get the supporting goodies to maximize its potential.
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post #19 of 22 Old 03-20-2020, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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My recommendation about MiniDSP 2x4HD and Umik-1 still stands, BTW. I think you made a good choice on the subwoofer, now you should get the supporting goodies to maximize its potential.

I clicked on the links, what doe these tools do that XT32 and and spl meter does not. Please forgive my ignorance.

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post #20 of 22 Old 03-21-2020, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ccarzoo View Post
I clicked on the links, what doe these tools do that XT32 and and spl meter does not. Please forgive my ignorance.
In short, they set it up correctly so you get the subs to sum their output. XT32 won't do that. The MiniDSP will also allow you to take out peaks in response caused by the room (XT32 won't do that nearly as well), it'll allow you to EQ the combined sub response to be flat, and won't try over-boosting your MBM down low unless you want to EQ it to do so. You can set custom EQ curves, to add a "house curve" if you want.

See the following thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...k-through.html

There's lots of info on Room EQ wizard, which is free software, MiniDSP 2x4HD DSPs, and the Umik-1 calibration microphone. It's currently the best way to get your bass sounding as good as it can in your room.

MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.
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post #21 of 22 Old 03-21-2020, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sorny View Post
In short, they set it up correctly so you get the subs to sum their output. XT32 won't do that. The MiniDSP will also allow you to take out peaks in response caused by the room (XT32 won't do that nearly as well), it'll allow you to EQ the combined sub response to be flat, and won't try over-boosting your MBM down low unless you want to EQ it to do so. You can set custom EQ curves, to add a "house curve" if you want.

See the following thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...k-through.html

There's lots of info on Room EQ wizard, which is free software, MiniDSP 2x4HD DSPs, and the Umik-1 calibration microphone. It's currently the best way to get your bass sounding as good as it can in your room.
you available for a tutorial in the northeast ohio area???

"Go Blue"
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post #22 of 22 Old 03-21-2020, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ccarzoo View Post
you available for a tutorial in the northeast ohio area???
LOL, nope. But if I can figure it out, anyone can. There's a ton of info on REW and MiniDSP subwoofer tuning in this subwoofer forum here on AVS, and several good videos on youtube showing how to use it.

MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.
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