Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Deaf-Forever View Post
Holy cats!! To think people call the TV36/42 big and ugly?? Is this the robot fromThe Black Hole? Maximillian?





Ok, all in jest. Please don't banish me to hell.
Agreed! I don't think the stacks of Rels look nice at all!

I DO think the Seaton F18 stacks look pretty slick though! (Sorry for the massive photo overload!)















It's tough to find one with the grills ON, as everyone probably likes the look of the UM18 driver

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post #32 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
the lowering of spl at a mere 40hz is pathetic....35hz is where it just starts to get good.
Equal loudness contours show otherwise..but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this

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Originally Posted by torii View Post
your laudatory praise for a graph that slopes downwards is for a manipulated graph...cause no graph of any sub I know of slopes down...they all slope up. so major eq ****ery. this type of eq pushing the hardest octaves the loudest isnt bueno. but hey...whatever.
He has 4 x top of the food chain sealed subs - each with multiple 18" woofers and each with a 4000w RMS amp,they are corner loaded and in a sealed rectangular room. What you are seeing (the rising low end response) is mostly caused by room gain - should he EQ this out??Why?? 10Hz NEEDS to be much louder than 50Hz to be heard! He's probably getting 15+dB of gain at 10Hz. This is free output!
You seem to be thinking of outdoor 2m/GP measurements, where the upper bass is usually higher in level than the lower bass, but when you put 4 sealed subs in a sealed room and you'll get tonnes of room gain under 30Hz ,which will slant the graph in the other direction

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post #33 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 12:48 AM
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Actually like the look of the RELS more.
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post #34 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Philips752 View Post
Actually like the look of the RELS more.
You're missing a very important piece of Audiovisual equipment.


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post #35 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Philips752 View Post
Actually like the look of the RELS more.
You're missing a very important piece of Audiovisual equipment.

Haha everybody for their own don't have to agree
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post #36 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
In thinking about subwoofers to get for a large future listening space (30' x 30'). So far there seems to be a lot of great options for smaller subs for music.. such as the rel s812. Now my main focus will be music but I do plan to do some home theatre on the system and I do enjoy subs that reach low and have strong but clear sub-bass. Would a large sealed sub still be able to provide clean tight bass that digs low and thus satisfy both duties. Can it ever match the speed and precision of a pair or more of rel 812s? Something like PSA S7201 or Captivator RS2?


I realize a smaller sub has a smaller moving mass and thus for a given level of power would be faster than a bigger sub with a bigger moving mass (driver mass). But a large sub would have to move less to achieve the same SPL and would reach lower.


Anyhow what do you guys think? Thanks.

You could also look at Funk Audio, though they tend to be a bit higher budget
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post #37 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 05:27 AM
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Big subs and stereo

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
In thinking about subwoofers to get for a large future listening space (30' x 30'). So far there seems to be a lot of great options for smaller subs for music.. such as the rel s812. Now my main focus will be music but I do plan to do some home theatre on the system and I do enjoy subs that reach low and have strong but clear sub-bass. Would a large sealed sub still be able to provide clean tight bass that digs low and thus satisfy both duties. Can it ever match the speed and precision of a pair or more of rel 812s? Something like PSA S7201 or Captivator RS2?


I realize a smaller sub has a smaller moving mass and thus for a given level of power would be faster than a bigger sub with a bigger moving mass (driver mass). But a large sub would have to move less to achieve the same SPL and would reach lower.


Anyhow what do you guys think? Thanks.
I have 2 SVS PC4000 subs matched with 2 Aerial Acoustic 10ts. I got the cylindrical subs because of space limitations. Otherwise, I would have gotten 2 more SVS SB16s as I have 4 in my home theater. When I added the subs, I got a mini-dsp with Dirac that sits between the front end and DAC. I quickly determined that my wife and I both prefer the subs in sealed mode.
The 10ts, which we have enjoyed for 20 yrs., are good down to 28 hz. The addition of the subs made it seem as if we had a new system. To determine whether the subs without Dirac would have made a difference, I first used REW to dial in 3 PEQ settings. The improvement was immediate and significant. Of course, in our space limited room in which the subs are not placed optimally, Dirac, without PEQs, made an even further improvement.
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post #38 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post

Bass Mojo this is so interesting. Your mainly listening to 2 channel yet you went with a ported monster ! What made you decide on this? What is your crossover settings on the sub for music? Why did you choose a ported sub over sealed if you are mainly listening to music ?

Thanks.
Because sealed does not hold a magical advantage over ported for sound quality on music. At some point, you have to be willing to look past the magical, antiquated beliefs of audiophools and start relying on facts. Most music resides above 30 Hz....A 10 Hz port tune will have exactly *zero* impact on musical sound quality. Rather than saying a sealed sub is better on music, we can more accurately say a sealed sub is *almost* as good as a low tuned ported sub for most music. For electronica with a lot of deep bass, the low tuned ported sub will play with drastically lower distortion than the sealed sub as high excursion is required for sealed subs down low.

Sealed subs have exactly two benefits over ported: smaller and cheaper. Not better. Not tighter. Not faster. Not more articulate, more crispy, whatever silly terms anyone wants to use.

The JTR S2 is smaller and cheaper than the Cap4000
The SB3000 is smaller and cheaper than the PB3000
The PSA S1512 is smaller and cheaper than the V1512
The Rythmik F18 is smaller and cheaper than the FV18.

None of those sealed subs are "better" for music than their ported counterpart. They might be a better "choice" for a music only system if smaller and cheaper is important to the one purchasing. Sometimes, the added size and cost of a ported sub is unnecessary or unwanted in a music only system that doesn't require the lower distortion and higher output that a ported subs provides.

Look, thousands and thousands of audiophiles believe spending $2500 on a DAC magically improves sound quality, even though a $9 DAC measures just as well or better. They believe cables and outlets improve sound quality, or ridiculous expensive feet to put under their electronics, or even cable lifts. Many believe "pure" 2.0 channel is the best sound quality....no subs, no eq. Even though in room response is atrocious and low fidelity. At some point, intelligent folks just need to do a couple of google searches and dispel these silly myths. The information is out there.

REL caters to audiophools because there is a market for it, and there are many folks who eschew evidence and will never break their old audiphool magical beliefs.
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post #39 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Agreed! I don't think the stacks of Rels look nice at all!

I DO think the Seaton F18 stacks look pretty slick though! (Sorry for the massive photo overload!)















It's tough to find one with the grills ON, as everyone probably likes the look of the UM18 driver



I would have to agree. That's a good looking set of lego subs! Rumor has it they sound even better
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
In thinking about subwoofers to get for a large future listening space (30' x 30'). So far there seems to be a lot of great options for smaller subs for music.. such as the rel s812. Now my main focus will be music but I do plan to do some home theatre on the system and I do enjoy subs that reach low and have strong but clear sub-bass. Would a large sealed sub still be able to provide clean tight bass that digs low and thus satisfy both duties. Can it ever match the speed and precision of a pair or more of rel 812s? Something like PSA S7201 or Captivator RS2?


I realize a smaller sub has a smaller moving mass and thus for a given level of power would be faster than a bigger sub with a bigger moving mass (driver mass). But a large sub would have to move less to achieve the same SPL and would reach lower.


Anyhow what do you guys think? Thanks.

Well there is a few ways to look at this. Subs make bass by moving air (ok, its simplistic I agree). tiny woofers move tiny air. The "tightest" 8" or 10" driver will not make as much bass as a comparable 15" driver. With the insane speaker construction we now have (60+ pound motor structures) that argument is pretty much dead. Remember the days when 15" woofers had 12 ounce magnets? Well the same 10" driver had the same motor. So the 15 was a little loose compared to the 10", back then, right after we invented the wheel, and the paper clip. That was your grand daddys woofer. Buy good brands and the speakers of today take care of that. Hell, I have a set of Cerwin AT-15's that were brand new in the early 90's. Big obnoxious ported woofers. They made me smile when listening to 2 channel music at an ungodly level. Made teh neighbors not so smiley... It would have taken 4-6 of some other speakers to get close to their bass output.



The better question to be asking is (if I may be so bold to suggest), "I like to listen to 2 Live Crew at ear bleeding levels. What kind of sub should I be looking at?" or, "I'm a critical listener of elevator music and want get the clearest sound and detail possible at low levels. What sub should I be looking at?"


You would get the typical response questions asking about your room size, construction, and WAF requirements. Then multiple suggestions.


2 Live: V3612 or TV42 for OMG level.
Elevator music (don't hold me to this, I'm not a critical listener of elevator music!): F18 or maybe an S3012 although the LVX12 is a great (smaller) choice as well!



Now, what are you after, and how much do you think you need?








Other ID companies, I apologize for my limited suggestions. You can obviously see where I have been focusing my research for my future PA-150 replacement later this year. JTR, Seaton, and Funk offer great choices as well, I just don't have that much background with their models other then the Cap2400/ULF and the Cap4000 (OMG level)

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Intesting there are different opinions which is good, justifies having range of sub companies.
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post #42 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 07:18 PM
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Sealed subs

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Because sealed does not hold a magical advantage over ported for sound quality on music. At some point, you have to be willing to look past the magical, antiquated beliefs of audiophools and start relying on facts. Most music resides above 30 Hz....A 10 Hz port tune will have exactly *zero* impact on musical sound quality. Rather than saying a sealed sub is better on music, we can more accurately say a sealed sub is *almost* as good as a low tuned ported sub for most music. For electronica with a lot of deep bass, the low tuned ported sub will play with drastically lower distortion than the sealed sub as high excursion is required for sealed subs down low.

Sealed subs have exactly two benefits over ported: smaller and cheaper. Not better. Not tighter. Not faster. Not more articulate, more crispy, whatever silly terms anyone wants to use.

The JTR S2 is smaller and cheaper than the Cap4000
The SB3000 is smaller and cheaper than the PB3000
The PSA S1512 is smaller and cheaper than the V1512
The Rythmik F18 is smaller and cheaper than the FV18.

None of those sealed subs are "better" for music than their ported counterpart. They might be a better "choice" for a music only system if smaller and cheaper is important to the one purchasing. Sometimes, the added size and cost of a ported sub is unnecessary or unwanted in a music only system that doesn't require the lower distortion and higher output that a ported subs provides.

Look, thousands and thousands of audiophiles believe spending $2500 on a DAC magically improves sound quality, even though a $9 DAC measures just as well or better. They believe cables and outlets improve sound quality, or ridiculous expensive feet to put under their electronics, or even cable lifts. Many believe "pure" 2.0 channel is the best sound quality....no subs, no eq. Even though in room response is atrocious and low fidelity. At some point, intelligent folks just need to do a couple of google searches and dispel these silly myths. The information is out there.

REL caters to audiophools because there is a market for it, and there are many folks who eschew evidence and will never break their old audiphool magical beliefs.
Money and size were not considerations in my sub purchases. I prefer the sound of sealed subs. As I stated in an earlier post, my PC4000s are ported. We tried all settings and prefer them sealed. I am glad you are so sure of your preferences. You certainly don't speak for me. I actually think that money is the main reason ported subs are popular. It takes multiple sealed to achieve the same dbs that fewer ported can manage. But, to my ear, the sealed signature is much more pleasing. I hope no newbie takes your opinions as any more than opinions.
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post #43 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by WLC View Post
the sealed signature is much more pleasing. I hope no newbie takes your opinions as any more than opinions.
^^ This. Not just newbie, everyone should take that as his opinion.
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post #44 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post

Bass Mojo this is so interesting. Your mainly listening to 2 channel yet you went with a ported monster ! What made you decide on this? What is your crossover settings on the sub for music? Why did you choose a ported sub over sealed if you are mainly listening to music ?

Thanks.
Because sealed does not hold a magical advantage over ported for sound quality on music. At some point, you have to be willing to look past the magical, antiquated beliefs of audiophools and start relying on facts. Most music resides above 30 Hz....A 10 Hz port tune will have exactly *zero* impact on musical sound quality. Rather than saying a sealed sub is better on music, we can more accurately say a sealed sub is *almost* as good as a low tuned ported sub for most music. For electronica with a lot of deep bass, the low tuned ported sub will play with drastically lower distortion than the sealed sub as high excursion is required for sealed subs down low.

Sealed subs have exactly two benefits over ported: smaller and cheaper. Not better. Not tighter. Not faster. Not more articulate, more crispy, whatever silly terms anyone wants to use.

The JTR S2 is smaller and cheaper than the Cap4000
The SB3000 is smaller and cheaper than the PB3000
The PSA S1512 is smaller and cheaper than the V1512
The Rythmik F18 is smaller and cheaper than the FV18.

None of those sealed subs are "better" for music than their ported counterpart. They might be a better "choice" for a music only system if smaller and cheaper is important to the one purchasing. Sometimes, the added size and cost of a ported sub is unnecessary or unwanted in a music only system that doesn't require the lower distortion and higher output that a ported subs provides.

Look, thousands and thousands of audiophiles believe spending $2500 on a DAC magically improves sound quality, even though a $9 DAC measures just as well or better. They believe cables and outlets improve sound quality, or ridiculous expensive feet to put under their electronics, or even cable lifts. Many believe "pure" 2.0 channel is the best sound quality....no subs, no eq. Even though in room response is atrocious and low fidelity. At some point, intelligent folks just need to do a couple of google searches and dispel these silly myths. The information is out there.

REL caters to audiophools because there is a market for it, and there are many folks who eschew evidence and will never break their old audiphool magical beliefs.
Calling people audiophools because they have a preference immm. Tells me the person you are and would not take any notice of you.
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post #45 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Those speakers ask a lot of their 12" woofers, so I would cross them over at 80, even though they can do more. That approach would give them the freedom to produce the mid-bass / lower-mids without the deeper notes adding distortion and add a bit of headroom to your amp. I would not go with the Rel-approved approach of using the sub to pick up from the natural roll-off of the speaker, although I'm sure that approach would also work under certain circumstances.

So, 15-18" subs seem appropriate for your needs. As to which one ... perhaps one of the ported Rythmiks, to give you the best of both worlds; servo for control, porting for bass output during movies. Lots of tuning options to allow for a seamless crossover region ... or, go sealed and give up a bit of output for the additional control. Much depends on the character of the Yamaha's mid-bass and your taste.

Im thinking a PSA sealed like S7201 or the successor the S72 ipal which 4x 18s and sealed might give me the best of both worlds. Incredible power and low end extension and control from it being sealed? I'm thinking either 2 of those or 2x TV42 ipal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf-Forever View Post
Holy cats!! To think people call the TV36/42 big and ugly?? Is this the robot fromThe Black Hole? Maximillian?





Ok, all in jest. Please don't banish me to hell.

I actually think the rel subs look gorgeous. The finish is just beautiful and reminds me of the finish of my NS5000.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips752 View Post
Actually like the look of the RELS more.

Me too. But I do like the ultra rugged invincible feel of PSA satin textured finish.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I think we should all follow the magical audiophile pixie dust mythology that little itty bitty woofers are better and more accurate and faster and tighter and crisper than larger drivers. For bass, smaller is definitely better. That's why the bass drum in marching bands is a little 8", not a giant thing needing a strap to carry, and its why kick drums on drum sets are always no larger than 8"...because smaller is better....deranged audiophile companies that sell itty bitty subs say so.

While we're at it, lets be sure to upgrade our electrical wall receptacle, and use a very high quality power cord. I'd start with at least $6-$800 for a good power cord if that's all you can afford. Don't forget the cable lifts and remember, the more expensive your speaker cables, the more resolving they will be, especially if you have a really expensive DAC.

Oh, almost forgot, don't forget these:

https://www.nordost.com/sort-systems/sort-kone.php


You can learn a lot about things like these in the Dynaudio thread, where true audiophiles discuss their high end cables and other magical audiophile items:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...read-1536.html

LOL so funny. I guess the concept of speed and control vs sheer output and extension is the real argument here. I wonder has anyone here compared smaller rel 6 pack or 4 pack to two monster JTR, PSA, rhythmik etc for 2 channel? I would love to hear thoughts on the comparison.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Because sealed does not hold a magical advantage over ported for sound quality on music. At some point, you have to be willing to look past the magical, antiquated beliefs of audiophools and start relying on facts. Most music resides above 30 Hz....A 10 Hz port tune will have exactly *zero* impact on musical sound quality. Rather than saying a sealed sub is better on music, we can more accurately say a sealed sub is *almost* as good as a low tuned ported sub for most music. For electronica with a lot of deep bass, the low tuned ported sub will play with drastically lower distortion than the sealed sub as high excursion is required for sealed subs down low.

Sealed subs have exactly two benefits over ported: smaller and cheaper. Not better. Not tighter. Not faster. Not more articulate, more crispy, whatever silly terms anyone wants to use.

The JTR S2 is smaller and cheaper than the Cap4000
The SB3000 is smaller and cheaper than the PB3000
The PSA S1512 is smaller and cheaper than the V1512
The Rythmik F18 is smaller and cheaper than the FV18.

None of those sealed subs are "better" for music than their ported counterpart. They might be a better "choice" for a music only system if smaller and cheaper is important to the one purchasing. Sometimes, the added size and cost of a ported sub is unnecessary or unwanted in a music only system that doesn't require the lower distortion and higher output that a ported subs provides.

Look, thousands and thousands of audiophiles believe spending $2500 on a DAC magically improves sound quality, even though a $9 DAC measures just as well or better. They believe cables and outlets improve sound quality, or ridiculous expensive feet to put under their electronics, or even cable lifts. Many believe "pure" 2.0 channel is the best sound quality....no subs, no eq. Even though in room response is atrocious and low fidelity. At some point, intelligent folks just need to do a couple of google searches and dispel these silly myths. The information is out there.

REL caters to audiophools because there is a market for it, and there are many folks who eschew evidence and will never break their old audiphool magical beliefs.

Really interesting perspective... except the part about dacs I have to disagree with. I am not saying more expensive = better.. but I have even done blind tests of certain dacs vs others (the former happened to be more expensive) and it was quite clear they were superior. I would argue that any discrete $100 dac probably will sound better to most people compared to a $9 build in dac (like in a phone) if there was a way to compare them in the same system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deaf-Forever View Post
Well there is a few ways to look at this. Subs make bass by moving air (ok, its simplistic I agree). tiny woofers move tiny air. The "tightest" 8" or 10" driver will not make as much bass as a comparable 15" driver. With the insane speaker construction we now have (60+ pound motor structures) that argument is pretty much dead. Remember the days when 15" woofers had 12 ounce magnets? Well the same 10" driver had the same motor. So the 15 was a little loose compared to the 10", back then, right after we invented the wheel, and the paper clip. That was your grand daddys woofer. Buy good brands and the speakers of today take care of that. Hell, I have a set of Cerwin AT-15's that were brand new in the early 90's. Big obnoxious ported woofers. They made me smile when listening to 2 channel music at an ungodly level. Made teh neighbors not so smiley... It would have taken 4-6 of some other speakers to get close to their bass output.

The better question to be asking is (if I may be so bold to suggest), "I like to listen to 2 Live Crew at ear bleeding levels. What kind of sub should I be looking at?" or, "I'm a critical listener of elevator music and want get the clearest sound and detail possible at low levels. What sub should I be looking at?"

You would get the typical response questions asking about your room size, construction, and WAF requirements. Then multiple suggestions.

2 Live: V3612 or TV42 for OMG level.
Elevator music (don't hold me to this, I'm not a critical listener of elevator music!): F18 or maybe an S3012 although the LVX12 is a great (smaller) choice as well!

Now, what are you after, and how much do you think you need?

Other ID companies, I apologize for my limited suggestions. You can obviously see where I have been focusing my research for my future PA-150 replacement later this year. JTR, Seaton, and Funk offer great choices as well, I just don't have that much background with their models other then the Cap2400/ULF and the Cap4000 (OMG level)

The more I read the more Im convinced to go with 2 monster subs


Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
Money and size were not considerations in my sub purchases. I prefer the sound of sealed subs. As I stated in an earlier post, my PC4000s are ported. We tried all settings and prefer them sealed. I am glad you are so sure of your preferences. You certainly don't speak for me. I actually think that money is the main reason ported subs are popular. It takes multiple sealed to achieve the same dbs that fewer ported can manage. But, to my ear, the sealed signature is much more pleasing. I hope no newbie takes your opinions as any more than opinions.

Did you find the sealed designs were more precise and faster?

Check out our audio discord Sonic Visions (https://discord.gg/PAMBexj), www.sonicvisions.org, a group focused on discussing all things high end audio.
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post #46 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
Money and size were not considerations in my sub purchases. I prefer the sound of sealed subs. As I stated in an earlier post, my PC4000s are ported. We tried all settings and prefer them sealed. I am glad you are so sure of your preferences. You certainly don't speak for me. I actually think that money is the main reason ported subs are popular. It takes multiple sealed to achieve the same dbs that fewer ported can manage. But, to my ear, the sealed signature is much more pleasing. I hope no newbie takes your opinions as any more than opinions.
Ported subs often have a more elevated frequency response down low ,which accounts for most of the difference in what we hear. Although all subs definitely don't sound the same, many blind tests have been done with multiple attendees. When the curtain is drawn, determining whether a sub was ported, sealed, or horn ended up as accurate as random guessing. Some swore on their lives(not really), which one was sealed because, since it was their preferred alignment and it obviously sounded the best, it was of course sealed. Turned out to be an 18" ported sub.

And you mistakenly assume what my preference is. I currently use sealed subs, but due to size and not any inherent sound quality advantage. Opinion does not alter facts or the laws of physics. Again, a 10-15 Hz port tune does not have any realistic impact on sound quality for music, other than improving sound quality for certain genres in which ported subs will produce drastically lower distortion. Just stating facts here, not preferences.

Eq any of the popular sealed and ported subs within an ID companies lineup to a matching in room response, blind test them with dozens of home theater enthusiasts, and trying to accurately determine which was ported or sealed would end up no better than random guesses.

This doesn't mean there aren't lots of people who set up ported subs and sealed subs completely differently with totally different in room responses and had a preference for one or the other.

When you sealed your PC4000, it simply altered the frequency response, so it would definitely sound different. Put it in one port mode and eq the response the same, you wouldn't be able to tell which was which until the sealed mode started to heavily distort while the ported mode would keep on trucking. These are just the facts of how sound works. You are correct when you say you preferred how it sounded sealed. This is a different argument than saying sealed sounds better than ported.....you simply preferred the different frequency response. When matched, one is not superior to the other.
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post #47 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 02:58 AM
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Calling people audiophools because they have a preference immm. Tells me the person you are and would not take any notice of you.
I didn't use the term to indicate a preference, only you said that. There is indeed a difference between audiophool and audiophile. Audiphool are those who buy into magical differences that don't exist based on advertising and unsubstantiated subjective impressions performed under inaccurate test conditions. Audiophiles attempt high quality sound reproduction based on things that actually make a difference, not expensive power cords, multi thousand dollar DAC's(which have been very cheap and completely audibly transparent for many many years), cable lifts, and other items that are easily proven to make no actual difference.
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Ported subs often have a more elevated frequency response down low ,which accounts for most of the difference in what we hear. Although all subs definitely don't sound the same, many blind tests have been done with multiple attendees. When the curtain is drawn, determining whether a sub was ported, sealed, or horn ended up as accurate as random guessing. Some swore on their lives(not really), which one was sealed because, since it was their preferred alignment and it obviously sounded the best, it was of course sealed. Turned out to be an 18" ported sub.

And you mistakenly assume what my preference is. I currently use sealed subs, but due to size and not any inherent sound quality advantage. Opinion does not alter facts or the laws of physics. Again, a 10-15 Hz port tune does not have any realistic impact on sound quality for music, other than improving sound quality for certain genres in which ported subs will produce drastically lower distortion. Just stating facts here, not preferences.

Eq any of the popular sealed and ported subs within an ID companies lineup to a matching in room response, blind test them with dozens of home theater enthusiasts, and trying to accurately determine which was ported or sealed would end up no better than random guesses.

This doesn't mean there aren't lots of people who set up ported subs and sealed subs completely differently with totally different in room responses and had a preference for one or the other.

When you sealed your PC4000, it simply altered the frequency response, so it would definitely sound different. Put it in one port mode and eq the response the same, you wouldn't be able to tell which was which until the sealed mode started to heavily distort while the ported mode would keep on trucking. These are just the facts of how sound works. You are correct when you say you preferred how it sounded sealed. This is a different argument than saying sealed sounds better than ported.....you simply preferred the different frequency response. When matched, one is not superior to the other.
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I didn't use the term to indicate a preference, only you said that. There is indeed a difference between audiophool and audiophile. Audiphool are those who buy into magical differences that don't exist based on advertising and unsubstantiated subjective impressions performed under inaccurate test conditions. Audiophiles attempt high quality sound reproduction based on things that actually make a difference, not expensive power cords, multi thousand dollar DAC's(which have been very cheap and completely audibly transparent for many many years), cable lifts, and other items that are easily proven to make no actual difference.
As one who, early in my career, taught and consulted in a medical school on research design, I share your enthusiasm for it. The problem with the manner in which you occasionally express your opinion is that it seems to include contempt for those who either aren't as knowledge or who disagree with you. It is unkind to refer to those who buy expensive power cords (which I don't) as audiophools. In your first response to me, you said I just preferred a certain frequency response. That is fine with me, as I am not really sure what the reason is. My 4 subs are tweaked to the point that they begin to distort above 113db at 15 hz. Curiously, at that sound level, they stop compressing down to 10hz. I am on concrete in the basement. When I test at these levels, the upper wooden floor and almost everything in the cupboards begin vibrating. However, there are no vibrations at the MLP. I was never able to achieve that result with my ported subs. Partly because of this difference, I am able to play the sealed louder than I was the ported. I do not like more TR than just the beginning of the air vibrating. I am happy to benefit from your knowledge, just as long as you don't speak with such contempt. By the way, your tone doesn't upset me personally. I responded more in defense of those who may be effected.
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When I test at these levels, the upper wooden floor and almost everything in the cupboards begin vibrating. However, there are no vibrations at the MLP. I was never able to achieve that result with my ported subs. Partly because of this difference, I am able to play the sealed louder than I was the ported.
Curious, what are the subs you're referencing? What is the tune of the ported sub. I believe what bear123 is trying to say is a sub's response, whether sealed or ported, can be shaped similarly and thus sound nearly identical
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Curious, what are the subs you're referencing? What is the tune of the ported sub. I believe what bear123 is trying to say is a sub's response, whether sealed or ported, can be shaped similarly and thus sound nearly identical
For many years, I had 2 Aerial Acoustic SW12 subs. I don't know their port tune, but probably not real low as that seems more a recent development. However, they are flat down to 20hz. My current home theater subs are SVS SB16s. I am a little unclear on how some of this works. With the addition of a house curve that begins rising 6 db at 30 hz down to 20 hz and room gain, I am +/- 1.25 from 30 to 80 and slightly rising from 20 to 10. I am not sure how I could achieve this with ported because of the added power they have below 40hz. I forget exactly, but I think they are 4 times as powerful at 20hz. I am happy with the additional 6 dbs down low and would not want any more. After calibration, I play my subs 10 dbs louder than the other channels. I have always felt grateful to Aerial Acoustics for their wonderful speakers and do not like to say anything negative about their products. If Aerial had continued to make subs, I almost certainly would just have replaced the one that failed (after 20 yrs). But, since the ID companies have driven many of the traditional speaker companies out of the sub business, I was forced to look further into my sub choices. My remaining SW12 is in my exercise room. It has not been tweaked beyond level matching to the 2 stereo speakers that are in that room. The old receiver I use in there does not even have HDMI so I don't hook up REW. There is probably another way to hook up REW, but it doesn't really matter, I wouldn't even know what to use as an MLP. So, it is not a fair comparison. However, I am reminded on a daily basis of the SW12's sound signature. It is certainly heavier with explosions. Now that I have good sealed subs to compare it with, I prefer sealed. With the SW12s, you could always tell when they were active. With the SB16s, you don't know whether the subs or other channels are active. Perhaps someone with more skill than I could have dialed in the SW12s more seamlessly. Incidentally, another piece of audiophile wisdom is that you can't hear stereo bass. Following a suggestion from Michael Kelly, who has never tried to up-sell me, and whose generous advice has always been excellent, I was able to set up stereo subs with my Lexicon. The difference was not subtle. In my stereo system, my pre-amp has both balanced and unbalanced outputs. I was able to set up stereo subs with this pre-amp. This was suggested both by SVS and mini-dsp for running Dirac. Again, the soundstage is enhanced and you can't tell whether the mains or subs are playing.
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For many years, I had 2 Aerial Acoustic SW12 subs. I don't know their port tune, but probably not real low as that seems more a recent development. However, they are flat down to 20hz. My current home theater subs are SVS SB16s. I am a little unclear on how some of this works. With the addition of a house curve that begins rising 6 db at 30 hz down to 20 hz and room gain, I am +/- 1.25 from 30 to 80 and slightly rising from 20 to 10. I am not sure how I could achieve this with ported because of the added power they have below 40hz. I forget exactly, but I think they are 4 times as powerful at 20hz. I am happy with the additional 6 dbs down low and would not want any more. After calibration, I play my subs 10 dbs louder than the other channels. I have always felt grateful to Aerial Acoustics for their wonderful speakers and do not like to say anything negative about their products. If Aerial had continued to make subs, I almost certainly would just have replaced the one that failed (after 20 yrs). But, since the ID companies have driven many of the traditional speaker companies out of the sub business, I was forced to look further into my sub choices. My remaining SW12 is in my exercise room. It has not been tweaked beyond level matching to the 2 stereo speakers that are in that room. The old receiver I use in there does not even have HDMI so I don't hook up REW. There is probably another way to hook up REW, but it doesn't really matter, I wouldn't even know what to use as an MLP. So, it is not a fair comparison. However, I am reminded on a daily basis of the SW12's sound signature. It is certainly heavier with explosions. Now that I have good sealed subs to compare it with, I prefer sealed. With the SW12s, you could always tell when they were active. With the SB16s, you don't know whether the subs or other channels are active. Perhaps someone with more skill than I could have dialed in the SW12s more seamlessly. Incidentally, another piece of audiophile wisdom is that you can't hear stereo bass. Following a suggestion from Michael Kelly, who has never tried to up-sell me, and whose generous advice has always been excellent, I was able to set up stereo subs with my Lexicon. The difference was not subtle. In my stereo system, my pre-amp has both balanced and unbalanced outputs. I was able to set up stereo subs with this pre-amp. This was suggested both by SVS and mini-dsp for running Dirac. Again, the soundstage is enhanced and you can't tell whether the mains or subs are playing.
I see. If your ported sub wasn't tuned "very low", then that could explain the lack of low frequency rumble.

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post #52 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 07:13 AM
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Low frequency rumble

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I see. If your ported sub wasn't tuned "very low", then that could explain the lack of low frequency rumble.
Actually, it was the presence of low frequency rumble in some content that had me changing the subs trims occasionally. This rumble was, to us, unpleasant and distracting. I'm not talking about explosions, etc., but just poorly recorded shows.This is no longer a problem with my new subs.
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Actually, it was the presence of low frequency rumble in some content that had me changing the subs trims occasionally. This rumble was, to us, unpleasant and distracting. I'm not talking about explosions, etc., but just poorly recorded shows.This is no longer a problem with my new subs.
Understandable. Everyone isn't into extreme ULF.

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Good discussion by all! I appreciate everyone staying civil while disagreeing. Bear has some good info for sure so don't count him out due to "tone" or apparent disdain for people chasing the pixie dust. I'm guilty of giving people on here a bit of hell when they cant see the "forest through the trees" after asking a question and getting a few correct answers so I can appreciate where Bear is coming from. Sealed versus ported will always be a discussion it seems. In the end its personal preference. All the gurus here can do is give you solid info based on their experiences. Most have way more than I will ever have so when they speak, I take it as more then opinion based on who's talking. I mean, you don't go to 3 brain surgeons with a tumor, get the recommendations, then tell them their wrong do you? Hell there's a kid on a google search that cured his tumor with vinegar and 20 hours/day of Xbox fortnight for 30 days in a row. He said so himself!


At the end of the day, all we have are opinions. Some are based off the kid drinking vinegar, and some are based on owning 5 or more of these critters. I'm going with the brain surgeon. Even if one of them is grumpy sounding.


Carry on! Cool stuff.


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Im thinking a PSA sealed like S7201 or the successor the S72 ipal which 4x 18s and sealed might give me the best of both worlds. Incredible power and low end extension and control from it being sealed? I'm thinking either 2 of those or 2x TV42 ipal.
You're in some rarefied air with those options. I doubt you can go wrong with any of them. If it were me, I'd always go for the more controlled output vs having additional output. You've got the same decision to make ... and a truss to buy!

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post #56 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 02:35 PM
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Im thinking a PSA sealed like S7201 or the successor the S72 ipal which 4x 18s and sealed might give me the best of both worlds. Incredible power and low end extension and control from it being sealed? I'm thinking either 2 of those or 2x TV42 ipal.
For myself personally, I think I would be able to choose between the TV42 or S7201 based on wether I wanted ported or sealed. I've experienced the difference first hand with enough of them to make the decision. Usually, it comes down to size. For example, I am in the process of downgrading from 18" sealed subs to a pair of 15" sealed subs. Based on my usage, the 15's will provide enough output for me, and the smaller form factor matters more to me than the additional performance I would get from going ported.

In your case however, I don't think you have a clear and firm grasp on whether you would prefer the S7201 or the TV42, and there is essentially not really a size difference to take into account.

Here's my two cents for what its worth, and what I would probably do were I in your shoes(but with your experiences, not mine). I would order a pair of both the TV42 and the S7201 IPAL, *IF* Tom would be ok with you returning the pair you choose not to keep.

Money isn't a huge concern for you, so I think a few hundred dollars in shipping cost would be well worth demoing them both in your home for a couple weeks.

I think either option will give you far more output than you could ever hope to use, even for brief "rabid pit bull on crack" demos. However, you might find the tremendously higher TR of the ported subs incredibly appealing, or you might end up preferring the sound and feel of the sealed version. Even though either option would "only" be $8k or so, far below your budget, I think comparing them side by side and keeping the ones you love would be your best option.

To briefly address the "speed/accuracy/articulation" topic for the last time(for me), the Ipal drivers have light cones with *incredibly* high motor strength. This is drastically more meaningful in terms of the sound quality the driver will produce than whether the alignment is ported or sealed. This also negates the belief that smaller drivers are somehow faster or tighter(made up adjectives without real clear cut meaning), which I think people tend to relate to how well the cone is controlled, the thought being a small cone is lighter which is easier to control. However, the pro audio drivers with Neo motors use very light weight cones. Combined with the strong motors, they actually have a higher motor to cone weight ratio than smaller, lower quality drivers. These are literally some of *the best* drivers in the world, cost no object. They barely have to move to produce the same SPL that small drivers need high excursion for, which results in higher distortion and lower sound quality. For bass, bigger is better, as long as the motor is strong enough to control the cone.

In addition to ordering and demoing both subs if that is an option, I would highly recommend that you get a Umik-1 mic from MiniDSP or Cross-Spectrum Labs(calibrated lower) and download REW. You'll want to measure in order to properly place and set the subs up in order to get the most out of them.

Good luck.
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post #57 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 02:48 PM
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I am in the process of downgrading from 18" sealed subs to a pair of 15" sealed subs.
Blasphemy! Off with his head

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Actually, it was the presence of low frequency rumble in some content that had me changing the subs trims occasionally. This rumble was, to us, unpleasant and distracting. I'm not talking about explosions, etc., but just poorly recorded shows.This is no longer a problem with my new subs.

I notice that I can sometimes hear some annoying ULF caused by wind buffeting during car review videos on Youtube, and my ported sub is not even considered to have a low-frequency tune.
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So for mostly music but an extreme love of deep bass... and wanting to use my system for HT as well.


Would you do (each dual):


PSA TV42Ipal ? or S72 Ipal (s7201 but with ipal drivers and 4000 watt amp)?

Check out our audio discord Sonic Visions (https://discord.gg/PAMBexj), www.sonicvisions.org, a group focused on discussing all things high end audio.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
So for mostly music but an extreme love of deep bass... and wanting to use my system for HT as well.


Would you do (each dual):


PSA TV42Ipal ? or S72 Ipal (s7201 but with ipal drivers and 4000 watt amp)?
So basically you just want someone on here or the other forum you posted on to make a decision for you from what i can tell?

Why not take a poll?

I vote for Ipal 7201's.

Good luck!
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