Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Deaf-Forever View Post
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post #62 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flat4 View Post
So basically you just want someone on here or the other forum you posted on to make a decision for you from what i can tell?

Why not take a poll?

I vote for Ipal 7201's.

Good luck!

Heh ya maybe i should make one. Interesting actually that the Captivator 4000 ULF has far more output at 10 hz than the S7201. I'm surprised by that. But I guess it is ported.

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post #63 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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PSA S7201 vs Captivator 4000 ULF attached

So it seems the dual 18 inch captivator 4000 ULF has higher SPL over pretty much all bass frequencies? Did I interpret that incorrectly ?
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post #64 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
PSA S7201 vs Captivator 4000 ULF attached

So it seems the dual 18 inch captivator 4000 ULF has higher SPL over pretty much all bass frequencies? Did I interpret that incorrectly ?
Yes you have misinterpreted the graphs, they are NOT max output or max long term output sweeps, they are simply just base frequency response sweep taken at an arbitrary level
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post #65 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
So for mostly music but an extreme love of deep bass... and wanting to use my system for HT as well.


Would you do (each dual):


PSA TV42Ipal ? or S72 Ipal (s7201 but with ipal drivers and 4000 watt amp)?
As I said in the PSA thread , I'd go for the TV42

Has Tom said how much the Ipal upgrade will be over the standard S7201? I'd assume the Ipal version will be well over $5k, maybe $5500??

I'd take the smaller footprint,more output down low and less expensive TV42Ipal any day

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post #66 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
So for mostly music but an extreme love of deep bass... and wanting to use my system for HT as well.


Would you do (each dual):


PSA TV42Ipal ? or S72 Ipal (s7201 but with ipal drivers and 4000 watt amp)?

Dang dude (dudette?) you are picking the top of the top (with this manufacturer) of two very different types of subs. I applaud your tastes! With your budget, I would have to agree with bear. Order both (after letting Tom know he will get back one of the 2 pairs) and let them rip! You will come in way under your original budget including the return shipping and know EXACTLY what the sound difference is between 2 monster OMG level subs is. There is one S7201 out that Im aware of and the owner is very pleased with it. At that level, I think a sealed sub would be acceptable, for OMG levels. I want to tell you to go with the TV42 but the darn S72 is so cool looking!! Ok, we don't do this for looks.. My recommendation, especially for HT would be the TV42. HOWEVER at this size, the lack of output of the S72 (lack???) is pretty minimal. Explosions and earthquakes with the TV42 would be insane is my guess.

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post #67 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Yes you have misinterpreted the graphs, they are NOT max output or max long term output sweeps, they are simply just base frequency response sweep taken at an arbitrary level

Damn, sorry. Thanks for the correction.


So looking at the data the S7201 has an output at 16 hz - 25 hz of 124.1 db (according to PSA site). The cap 4000 ULF has an output of about 115 db. I don't see any measurements or numbers below 16 hz for the S7201 though. Im curious how the TV42 IPAL will measure.

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post #68 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deaf-Forever View Post
Dang dude (dudette?) you are picking the top of the top (with this manufacturer) of two very different types of subs. I applaud your tastes! With your budget, I would have to agree with bear. Order both (after letting Tom know he will get back one of the 2 pairs) and let them rip! You will come in way under your original budget including the return shipping and know EXACTLY what the sound difference is between 2 monster OMG level subs is. There is one S7201 out that Im aware of and the owner is very pleased with it. At that level, I think a sealed sub would be acceptable, for OMG levels. I want to tell you to go with the TV42 but the darn S72 is so cool looking!! Ok, we don't do this for looks.. My recommendation, especially for HT would be the TV42. HOWEVER at this size, the lack of output of the S72 (lack???) is pretty minimal. Explosions and earthquakes with the TV42 would be insane is my guess.

Damn getting both that would be truly epic! And back breaking! LOL.


I hear you though, at this level really important to hear them.
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post #69 of 97 Old 03-25-2020, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
Damn, sorry. Thanks for the correction.

So looking at the data the S7201 has an output at 16 hz - 25 hz of 124.1 db (according to PSA site). The cap 4000 ULF has an output of about 115 db. I don't see any measurements or numbers below 16 hz for the S7201 though. Im curious how the TV42 IPAL will measure.
There are a few things you need to know about the numbers on PSA:

1. They are in 1m peak, which are 9dB higher than 2m RMS numbers you see on Data-bass.
2. They are 3 averages of 3 bands and can't be directly compared with Data-bass output numbers on test frequencies.
3. They are in-house numbers, unlike the 3rd party independent tested numbers on Data-bass.

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post #70 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
Damn, sorry. Thanks for the correction.


So looking at the data the S7201 has an output at 16 hz - 25 hz of 124.1 db (according to PSA site). The cap 4000 ULF has an output of about 115 db. I don't see any measurements or numbers below 16 hz for the S7201 though. Im curious how the TV42 IPAL will measure.
The compression sweep shown for the S7201 gives a little better indication of its output capability. Over 112 dB at 20 Hz without any noticeable compression setting in. This would be more comparable to data-bass measurements but is probably not quite a "max" output number, and nowhere close to max output above 30 Hz. Also, those compression sweeps are with a different driver, and not the Ipal.

The IPAL drivers, although they perform very well in sealed enclosures, *really* shine in ported enclosures due to the extraordinary motor strength. Drivers this good are going to perform well to an extent no matter what alignment is used, but ported subs benefit greatly from drivers with stronger motors.

Again, instead of guessing, just get em both. You might find out that they both perform so well that it just comes down to how they look for you.
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post #71 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Here's my two cents for what its worth, and what I would probably do were I in your shoes(but with your experiences, not mine). I would order a pair of both the TV42 and the S7201 IPAL, *IF* Tom would be ok with you returning the pair you choose not to keep.


Again, instead of guessing, just get em both. You might find out that they both perform so well that it just comes down to how they look for you.
haha man that'd have to be around $20K for duals of each with shipping! You have to admit - that's a lot of cheddar to tie up in subwoofers right now! I understand it'd be the only way to know for sure...but my Mrs would flat out stab me....no chit-chat.....no WTF?.... just stabbing

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post #72 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 12:10 PM
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..but my Mrs would flat out stab me....no chit-chat.....no WTF?.... just stabbing
And no jury would convict.

Unless the jury pool was pulled from this subforum.

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post #73 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
haha man that'd have to be around $20K for duals of each with shipping! You have to admit - that's a lot of cheddar to tie up in subwoofers right now! I understand it'd be the only way to know for sure...but my Mrs would flat out stab me....no chit-chat.....no WTF?.... just stabbing

Same here !


I wish Tom would send his flagship subs to data-bass for testing. Would love to see TV42 ipal and S72ipal tested.
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A friend of mine had some thoughts on this discussion and would appreciate your insights.


He recommends against 2 bigger subs vs 4-8 smaller subs arguing that.


1. Bigger subs have bigger moving masses and thus their voice coils tend to overheat more causing more distortion.


2. Bigger drivers (18 inch) will not be as stiff as a smaller driver (10 inch) and thus more susceptible to distortion.


3. The cone area of 6x 10 inch drivers would be similar to dual 18s thus it should extend as low and have as much impact as dual 18s (although of course we are talking quad 18s or maybe even 8x 18s in the case of S72 Ipal).


One counter to point 2 that comes to mind is that a larger driver would move less to generate the same SPL as a smaller driver so that may mitigate any potential distortion of the bigger driver.

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post #75 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Just thinking more about options:




I could of course go into full crazy mode and buy 4 of the captivators or S72s and put them around but thats just too insane and probably wouldnt lead to any massive gain in SQ to justify the price im guessing.


Im guessing this is stupid but do you think if I went with the big captivator or s72 approach (duals) could I put my existing 2, 18s in the back of the room and make them part of the system? Im guessing that would be stupid given they are not the same model.


What if I did a compromise. What if I sold my 2 subs and bought 4x 18s or 4x dual 18s ?

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Why not just buy one each of the big PSA's and test?

Then you only return one, and order a second of the winner?.

Half the money, half the hassle, all the surety you make the right choice.
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post #77 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 02:22 PM
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Have you considered infinite baffle subwoofers?


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...questions.html
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post #78 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
A friend of mine had some thoughts on this discussion and would appreciate your insights.


He recommends against 2 bigger subs vs 4-8 smaller subs arguing that.


1. Bigger subs have bigger moving masses and thus their voice coils tend to overheat more causing more distortion.


2. Bigger drivers (18 inch) will not be as stiff as a smaller driver (10 inch) and thus more susceptible to distortion.


3. The cone area of 6x 10 inch drivers would be similar to dual 18s thus it should extend as low and have as much impact as dual 18s (although of course we are talking quad 18s or maybe even 8x 18s in the case of S72 Ipal).


One counter to point 2 that comes to mind is that a larger driver would move less to generate the same SPL as a smaller driver so that may mitigate any potential distortion of the bigger driver.
Your friend is wrong, as simple as that. The Ipal 18's have lower distortion than just about any other subwoofer driver made, regardless of size. They also have much lower distortion at much higher SPL. They are better in every way. And their voice coils are designed to be able to handle extremely high power for long periods of time without overheating. That's why the JL Audio E110, a $1500 10" subwoofer, had terrible thermal build up after a few frequency response sweeps that showed up in a repeat low level sweep that varied significantly from the cold sweep due to the massive heat build up. The pro audio drivers on the other hand, since they are better in every way, perform flawlessly when repeating a low level sweep after pounding them with much higher maximum output compression sweeps.

Also, just basic measuremetns, i.e. facts, prove your "friend" wrong. Plenty of pro audio drivers have been extensively tested on data-bass. They have incredibly low distortion. You have to accept the fact that old audiophile myths that aren't based on facts are just that....myths. People believed for a really really long time that the world was flat. Doesn't mean it was true. Nowadays, the truth is out there and pretty easy to find. You just have to stay away from the subjective audiophile hangouts that spout a bunch of fairy tales.

A real world example. The BMS18n862 18" driver has distortion less than 1% at a 110 dB drive level. It is one of the lowest distortion drivers ever tested on data-bass, which includes some very high end 10 and 12" designs. Lower distortion than the $1500 JL Audio E110. The 18" BMS driver has 20 dB more output with *lower distortion*. So even if you stacked up 8 of the $1500/each JL Audio E110's, you would have less output and higher distortion than a single 18" driver.

Again, the facts are out there. Smaller drivers are not better. In any way other than being smaller. However, if you ignore evidence, further evidence will continue to make no difference. Go with JL Audio, you will get less performance, lower sound quality, higher distortion for more money.
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Quote:
Just thinking more about options:
I could of course go into full crazy mode and buy 4 of the captivators or S72s and put them around but thats just too insane and probably wouldnt lead to any massive gain in SQ to justify the price im guessing.


Im guessing this is stupid but do you think if I went with the big captivator or s72 approach (duals) could I put my existing 2, 18s in the back of the room and make them part of the system? Im guessing that would be stupid given they are not the same model.


What if I did a compromise. What if I sold my 2 subs and bought 4x 18s or 4x dual 18s ?
At the rate the op is going, he will have covered every option, of every manufacturer, in every configuration and still wouldn't be any closer to actually making a decision.

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post #80 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 06:31 PM
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One caveat to 4 or more subs is the tuning process tends to be much more time-consuming, and it's a geometric progression.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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post #81 of 97 Old 03-26-2020, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Your friend is wrong, as simple as that. The Ipal 18's have lower distortion than just about any other subwoofer driver made, regardless of size. They also have much lower distortion at much higher SPL. They are better in every way. And their voice coils are designed to be able to handle extremely high power for long periods of time without overheating. That's why the JL Audio E110, a $1500 10" subwoofer, had terrible thermal build up after a few frequency response sweeps that showed up in a repeat low level sweep that varied significantly from the cold sweep due to the massive heat build up. The pro audio drivers on the other hand, since they are better in every way, perform flawlessly when repeating a low level sweep after pounding them with much higher maximum output compression sweeps.

Also, just basic measuremetns, i.e. facts, prove your "friend" wrong. Plenty of pro audio drivers have been extensively tested on data-bass. They have incredibly low distortion. You have to accept the fact that old audiophile myths that aren't based on facts are just that....myths. People believed for a really really long time that the world was flat. Doesn't mean it was true. Nowadays, the truth is out there and pretty easy to find. You just have to stay away from the subjective audiophile hangouts that spout a bunch of fairy tales.

A real world example. The BMS18n862 18" driver has distortion less than 1% at a 110 dB drive level. It is one of the lowest distortion drivers ever tested on data-bass, which includes some very high end 10 and 12" designs. Lower distortion than the $1500 JL Audio E110. The 18" BMS driver has 20 dB more output with *lower distortion*. So even if you stacked up 8 of the $1500/each JL Audio E110's, you would have less output and higher distortion than a single 18" driver.

Again, the facts are out there. Smaller drivers are not better. In any way other than being smaller. However, if you ignore evidence, further evidence will continue to make no difference. Go with JL Audio, you will get less performance, lower sound quality, higher distortion for more money.

Thanks for the insight. I think after all this discussion I am set on flagship PSA or JTR. Definitely will not go JL audio. Rel is unlikely at this point for me.

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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
Thanks for the insight. I think after all this discussion I am set on flagship PSA or JTR. Definitely will not go JL audio. Rel is unlikely at this point for me.

its not so simple...subs sound different from each other. take 4 subs from different brands and play a 20hz test tone at 100db or whatever and they will sound different.

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post #83 of 97 Old 03-27-2020, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
Thanks for the insight. I think after all this discussion I am set on flagship PSA or JTR. Definitely will not go JL audio. Rel is unlikely at this point for me.

Just cause the ipal driver is being used does not mean the sub is an outstanding performer. This has been said many times. The driver efficiency is important but not on the only factor on how a sub will sound.


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post #84 of 97 Old 03-27-2020, 09:12 AM
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Just cause the ipal driver is being used does not mean the sub is an outstanding performer. This has been said many times. The driver efficiency is important but not on the only factor on how a sub will sound.
^^ This. Isn't that getting really old? sigh!
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post #85 of 97 Old 03-27-2020, 10:43 AM
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Piling on here, but yes, different subs (just like different speakers) have their own characteristics, which cannot be assumed or deduced from measurements only. Hearing them is really the only way to choose, especially at this price point. Pick two, order one each, return the "loser" (a ludicrous word in this context) and fill out the rest with the one you love above all (and at that cost, you better loooooove it a lot).
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post #86 of 97 Old 03-27-2020, 11:09 AM
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Are larger subwoofers viable for 2 channel music? Yes. I recently tried out 18 inch sealed woofers and was pleasantly surprised with the sound quality and I am a huge stickler for not losing out on any sound quality.
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post #87 of 97 Old 03-27-2020, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
Piling on here, but yes, different subs (just like different speakers) have their own characteristics, which cannot be assumed or deduced from measurements only. Hearing them is really the only way to choose, especially at this price point. Pick two, order one each, return the "loser" (a ludicrous word in this context) and fill out the rest with the one you love above all (and at that cost, you better loooooove it a lot).

I have a feeling if I order from 2 different companies and return speakers to one of them, there will be some serious anger and bad blood and maybe flat out refusal to accept a return on a perfectly good working subwoofer.


EDIT: PSR has a return policy on their site bit I dont see one for JTR?

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Last edited by R Smood; 03-27-2020 at 12:08 PM.
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post #88 of 97 Old 03-27-2020, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
I have a feeling if I order from 2 different companies and return speakers to one of them, there will be some serious anger and bad blood and maybe flat out refusal to accept a return on a perfectly good working subwoofer.


EDIT: PSR has a return policy on their site bit I dont see one for JTR?
Discuss it with both parties. If they are not amenable to your shoot-out (assuming you are going to foot the bill for the return shipping) and the possibility of making an additional sale, well ... then you should consider customer support as an important part of any purchase of this magnitude.
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post #89 of 97 Old 03-27-2020, 12:59 PM
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Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music?

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
I have a feeling if I order from 2 different companies and return speakers to one of them, there will be some serious anger and bad blood and maybe flat out refusal to accept a return on a perfectly good working subwoofer.


EDIT: PSR has a return policy on their site bit I dont see one for JTR?

JTR has a 30 day return policy. However you will pay shipping both ways but you can talk to Jeff. Same applies for Rythmik. Have a 45 day in home trial with buyer responsible for shipping back like PSA.


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post #90 of 97 Old 03-27-2020, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
I have a feeling if I order from 2 different companies and return speakers to one of them, there will be some serious anger and bad blood and maybe flat out refusal to accept a return on a perfectly good working subwoofer.
What has given you this feeling?

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