Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Are big subwoofers viable for 2 channel music?

In thinking about subwoofers to get for a large future listening space (30' x 30'). So far there seems to be a lot of great options for smaller subs for music.. such as the rel s812. Now my main focus will be music but I do plan to do some home theatre on the system and I do enjoy subs that reach low and have strong but clear sub-bass. Would a large sealed sub still be able to provide clean tight bass that digs low and thus satisfy both duties. Can it ever match the speed and precision of a pair or more of rel 812s? Something like PSA S7201 or Captivator RS2?


I realize a smaller sub has a smaller moving mass and thus for a given level of power would be faster than a bigger sub with a bigger moving mass (driver mass). But a large sub would have to move less to achieve the same SPL and would reach lower.


Anyhow what do you guys think? Thanks.

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post #2 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
A realize a smaller sub has a smaller moving mass and thus for a given level of power would be faster than a bigger sub with a bigger moving mass (driver mass). But a large sub would have to move less to achieve the same SPL and would reach lower.

As mentioned in your other thread, this is complete BS. It's an old myth that won't die. Yes, larger cones will have more mass, but when you use a massive motor structure with it, it is just as "tight" or controlled as a smaller one. Sometimes, more so. All of the main ID companies make 18" subs that are very articulate. JTR, PSA, Rythmik, Funk, etc.

The RS2 and the S7201 will both run circles around the REL.
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post #3 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 05:00 PM
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Duals have a distinct advantage over a single. A pair of sealed Rythmik F18's would do the trick. Unlike the ported FV18, the sealed F18 is in stock except for the Piano Black F18s, which are back ordered till the end of April. You would also do well with a pair of Rythmik G25HPs.

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post #4 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
As mentioned in your other thread, this is complete BS. It's an old myth that won't die. Yes, larger cones will have more mass, but when you use a massive motor structure with it, it is just as "tight" or controlled as a smaller one. Sometimes, more so. All of the main ID companies make 18" subs that are very articulate. JTR, PSA, Rythmik, Funk, etc.

The RS2 and the S7201 will both run circles around the REL.
Guess he missed the part in one of the other threads where it was mentioned about placement and tuning is what keeps it clean and as they say fast and able to keep up with music.

Also mentioned i use two 7201's for a 2 channel music system.
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post #5 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
As mentioned in your other thread, this is complete BS. It's an old myth that won't die. Yes, larger cones will have more mass, but when you use a massive motor structure with it, it is just as "tight" or controlled as a smaller one. Sometimes, more so. All of the main ID companies make 18" subs that are very articulate. JTR, PSA, Rythmik, Funk, etc.

The RS2 and the S7201 will both run circles around the REL.

Wow amazing to hear. Why do some many audiophiles then reach for smaller rel subs then? Do they all just subscribe to this myth as you say?



Would the higher power output and cone size of the RS2 and S7201 over a rel 812 pair or 6 sick pack lead to bass that reaches lower with more impact but the same or similar speed/transient resolution ?


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Duals have a distinct advantage over a single. A pair of sealed Rythmik F18's would do the trick. Unlike the ported FV18, the sealed F18 is in stock except for the Piano Black F18s, which are back ordered till the end of April. You would also do well with a pair of Rythmik G25HPs.

I think I would at minimum go with duals. But the question is should I go dual massive subs or quad or 6 of smaller subs like rels (or maybe a smaller set of ID subs).

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post #6 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 05:23 PM
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I have a pair of 18" PSA sub's. 50% of the time playing music, sound amazing.
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post #7 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
Wow amazing to hear. Why do some many audiophiles then reach for smaller rel subs then? Do they all just subscribe to this myth as you say?



Would the higher power output and cone size of the RS2 and S7201 over a rel 812 pair or 6 sick pack lead to bass that reaches lower with more impact but the same or similar speed/transient resolution ?





I think I would at minimum go with duals. But the question is should I go dual massive subs or quad or 6 of smaller subs like rels (or maybe a smaller set of ID subs).
Go for a pair of the S2s and don't look back. The S7201s are awesome but they're also super huge and IMO kind of ugly, or super cool looking depending on who's doing the looking.

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post #8 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 05:44 PM
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I LOVE my dual JTR Cap 4000s for 2 channel (2.2) music. I listen to 80/20 music over HT in my multi-purpose living room setup. I think that you will be very happy if you go with the RS2s.
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post #9 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a pair of 18" PSA sub's. 50% of the time playing music, sound amazing.

I do too and I agree I love it.V1800s. It sounds deep, tight and gives an incredible weight and presence to music. I cross at about 40 hz and turn gain to about 30%. And this is in a 12 x 16 x8 ft bed room . I love bass.


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Go for a pair of the S2s and don't look back. The S7201s are awesome but they're also super huge and IMO kind of ugly, or super cool looking depending on who's doing the looking.

Are you saying it just based on aesthetics? I think the S7201 looks incredible and love how visually imposing it is.


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Originally Posted by BassMojo View Post
I LOVE my dual JTR Cap 4000s for 2 channel (2.2) music. I listen to 80/20 music over HT in my multi-purpose living room setup. I think that you will be very happy if you go with the RS2s.

Bass Mojo this is so interesting. Your mainly listening to 2 channel yet you went with a ported monster ! What made you decide on this? What is your crossover settings on the sub for music? Why did you choose a ported sub over sealed if you are mainly listening to music ?


Thanks.
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post #10 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 07:40 PM
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What speakers are you using with the subs?

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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I use two sealed subs from SVS, their SB16 Ultra model. They are nice and “tight”, and deep. My room’s cubic volume is similar to the room you referenced and these two subs are more than adequate to pressurize the room.

I pair them with Revel Ultima Salon2’s.

Click image for larger version

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post #12 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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What speakers are you using with the subs?

Yamaha NS5000


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Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
I use two sealed subs from SVS, their SB16 Ultra model. They are nice and “tight”, and deep. My room’s cubic volume is similar to the room you referenced and these two subs are more than adequate to pressurize the room.

I pair them with Revel Ultima Salon2’s.

Attachment 2701130

Nice. Did you compare the SVS to any other subs ?

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post #13 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 08:28 PM
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I auditioned JL Audio, which were quite nice, but found these to be their equal. You can’t go wrong with SVS’s in home trial, free return policy. Once I heard them in my room, my search was over. Done deal.
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post #14 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 08:29 PM
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I just added Dual JTR RS2's to my Dual PSA T-18's.(one in each corner) I ended up flatting out the response and then adding a curve. If you can get the nulls out of your room with a DSP (I used a MINI DSP 2x4 HD) and get both subs timing to under 1ms, IMO that will make the most difference in a tight responses. I could not tell what sub was firing, the timing at the MLP was spot on. Even after 20 years in the hobby, it made me grin from ear to ear this weekend.



at -20 on the dial I was hitting 118db at 10hz!! and a crazy 112db at 5hz. The timing on all 4 subs was down to .06 msec or 1/16th of a msec. The music was crisp, clean and insane.

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post #15 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 08:38 PM
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Bass Mojo this is so interesting. Your mainly listening to 2 channel yet you went with a ported monster ! What made you decide on this? What is your crossover settings on the sub for music? Why did you choose a ported sub over sealed if you are mainly listening to music ?
Thanks for the question, I apologize for my long response.

I originally acquired JTR subs for HT use; 1st Cap 1400, then 2400s, and now 4000s. Along this journey I purchased JTR Noesis speakers for a full JTR setup. As blown away as I was with the subs, and continue to be, it was the speakers that really made me enjoy music to another level. The JTR made me switch from 50/50 HT/music to 80/20 music over HT. I still have not found any better HT speakers.

I was enjoying an Anthem AVM60 which excelled at HT, but left me wanting more with 2 channel critical listening. I would listen to 2 channel without the ARC engaged as it appeared to remove a bit of the upper-end sweetness that I so enjoy. While considering adding a 2 channel processor with HT bypass, I moved on the Lyngdorf MP60 for a single-box solution which uses RoomPerfect room correction. This decision was based on its sonic advantages, especially for 2 channel music enjoyment.

RoomPerfect is unique with their bass management approach. They recommend two subs (or multiples stacked) placed into the two front corners of the room outside (or under) the mains to be blended together with the mains. Although my current room does not allow for this placement, I take the long view and attempt to make purchase decisions that should transfer well to a future new home. So I wanted the largest, most capable two (only two) subs. End game if you will. But they had to be great for both music and HT. I consulted with JTR's owner and some other pro installers about the RS2s vs Cap 4000s who all encouraged me to go with the 4000s due to their low port tune of 10Hz an open floor plan listening area. I believe that a higher port tune sub may provide different results.

I currently have them crossed at 100Hz for both music and HT due to RoomPerfects recommendations and the capabilities of the subs & mains. I can assure you that the 4000s are very musical and without any overhang. It sounds amazing to me and can scare the hell out of you for HT when called upon.

If my next home allows for a dedicated HT, I will most likely put together a separate 2 channel setup with a Lyngdorf TDAi-3400, two JTR 215RMs and two RS2s. There are many good manufacturers out there, I am very happy with the JTRs.
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subs dont sound the same. even within same company. rythmiks sound better than my velodynes. now why do they sound different in 1st place? cause the fact of life, some designs sound better. I have heard svs and jl audio and dozens of mass market subs....they sound different but you need to find one you like. some people dont like rythmik and sell them fast....so dont believe there is just a magic brand.


I listen 80% music and my big rythmiks work very well in my 20k cuft room. they work well with my maggies and my focals. I do need 4 more of em tho due to space....I hit mid 120db....my max with ratshack spl was 127db with music.
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post #18 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 09:10 PM
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I just added Dual JTR RS2's to my Dual PSA T-18's.(one in each corner) I ended up flatting out the response and then adding a curve. If you can get the nulls out of your room with a DSP (I used a MINI DSP 2x4 HD) and get both subs timing to under 1ms, IMO that will make the most difference in a tight responses. I could not tell what sub was firing, the timing at the MLP was spot on. Even after 20 years in the hobby, it made me grin from ear to ear this weekend.



at -20 on the dial I was hitting 118db at 10hz!! and a crazy 112db at 5hz. The timing on all 4 subs was down to .06 msec or 1/16th of a msec. The music was crisp, clean and insane.
Just checked out your theater pics linked in your sig.....
WOW!!!! Arguably one of the best setups I've ever seen! Congrats mate
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I play 2 channel music with 2 speakers and 4 subs; they're not "big" subs per se, but they're pretty gutsy and dig deep.

2x HSU TN1220HO each with HSU 500W amp
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So, yes, you can definitely play 2 channel music with multiple and/or big subs. It's my recommendation to do so in fact.
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post #20 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 10:01 PM
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Those speakers ask a lot of their 12" woofers, so I would cross them over at 80, even though they can do more. That approach would give them the freedom to produce the mid-bass / lower-mids without the deeper notes adding distortion and add a bit of headroom to your amp. I would not go with the Rel-approved approach of using the sub to pick up from the natural roll-off of the speaker, although I'm sure that approach would also work under certain circumstances.

So, 15-18" subs seem appropriate for your needs. As to which one ... perhaps one of the ported Rythmiks, to give you the best of both worlds; servo for control, porting for bass output during movies. Lots of tuning options to allow for a seamless crossover region ... or, go sealed and give up a bit of output for the additional control. Much depends on the character of the Yamaha's mid-bass and your taste.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

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post #21 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
Wow amazing to hear. Why do some many audiophiles then reach for smaller rel subs then? Do they all just subscribe to this myth as you say?



Would the higher power output and cone size of the RS2 and S7201 over a rel 812 pair or 6 sick pack lead to bass that reaches lower with more impact but the same or similar speed/transient resolution ?





I think I would at minimum go with duals. But the question is should I go dual massive subs or quad or 6 of smaller subs like rels (or maybe a smaller set of ID subs).
Because they WANT to believe it, they don't actually want multiple large boxes spread around the room and often they don't want to put the work needed to properly combine the subs with the speaker (IMHO it can't be done by ear)
Also REL has marketed themselves as the "Audiophile brand" - so "audiophiles" automatically default to them - despite them being outperformed by many other brands in the metrics that actually matter when it comes to sound quality
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Just checked out your theater pics linked in your sig.....
WOW!!!! Arguably one of the best setups I've ever seen! Congrats mate

your high...these measurements sloping bad at 40hz...no bueno.

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post #23 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 11:05 PM
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your high...these measurements sloping bad at 40hz...no bueno.
Whoa, the guy has 4 JTR and PSA subs totaling 16,000 Watts. All of them are known to produce 125+dB above 40Hz. He is also running miniDSP 2x4HD.

The bad slope you speak of, could be due to the house curve he wants to run, or just placement issues(unlikely). I am pretty sure he has the headroom to do a flat FR if he really desires one.
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post #24 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 11:14 PM
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your high...these measurements sloping bad at 40hz...no bueno.
Yeah...It's called a house curve - look it up

Did you happen notice how incredibly smooth it is up to 100Hz?? Single digit response to 118dB?115dB in the midbass? and with 4 subs,one in each corner he probably has a similar response in each of his (many) seats too! It's one of the best subwoofer FR I've seen on here,near perfect IMHO


Not to be a dick, but compare that to your sweep


Which looks better to you?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Smood View Post
Wow amazing to hear. Why do some many audiophiles then reach for smaller rel subs then? Do they all just subscribe to this myth as you say?



Would the higher power output and cone size of the RS2 and S7201 over a rel 812 pair or 6 sick pack lead to bass that reaches lower with more impact but the same or similar speed/transient resolution ?





I think I would at minimum go with duals. But the question is should I go dual massive subs or quad or 6 of smaller subs like rels (or maybe a smaller set of ID subs).

My guess would be appearance got in the way of performance. The 90's are long gone. There are some crazy speaker designs out there now. Meaning large driver/large motor combinations. Large cones now have the control of small cones. While 34 tiny drivers would look cool, I think 4-18/21" drivers would get the job done. Define needs (low freq extension, low freq volume, or mid bass volume) and go from there. I'm not saying you cant do it sealed, but it will cost you... most likely. For a sound that most wont be able to tell the difference, versus the OMG sound of the ported. Different strokes for different folks. Until something changes significantly, I'm a ported dude. There are too many advantages from where I sit. Then again, Im a bass a holic.
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Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Yeah...It's called a house curve - look it up

Did you happen notice how incredibly smooth it is up to 100Hz?? Single digit response to 118dB?115dB in the midbass? and with 4 subs,one in each corner he probably has a similar response in each of his (many) seats too! It's one of the best subwoofer FR I've seen on here,near perfect IMHO


Not to be a dick, but compare that to your sweep


Which looks better to you?

yup, dick measured


frequency response curve means nothing, but I post em...

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
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post #27 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 11:48 PM
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It is totally up to your taste, no silver bullet. We're it is accessible try (in your own home, room) before you buy. This will also give you a better chance to see how they integrate sound/look wise.
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post #28 of 97 Old 03-23-2020, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
yup, dick measured


frequency response curve means nothing, but I post em...
If it means nothing, why comment that I must be "high" for simply commenting that I liked his Theater build?? and that his frequency response slope being louder in the ultra low bass when compared to the upper bass was "no bueno" ???

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TV: Panasonic 65" P65ST60 AVR: Denon AVR-X4000 Speakers: PSA MTM-210C (Centre), PSA MTM-210 (Left & Right), PSA MT-110 (Surrounds) Subwoofers: Seaton SubMersives x 3
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post #29 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 12:01 AM
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Holy cats!! To think people call the TV36/42 big and ugly?? Is this the robot fromThe Black Hole? Maximillian?





Ok, all in jest. Please don't banish me to hell.
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AVR: Yamaha TSR-7850, Fronts: DCM TP260, Center: DCM TP160C, Sub: Premier Acoustic PA-150
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post #30 of 97 Old 03-24-2020, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
If it means nothing, why comment that I must be "high" for simply commenting that I liked his Theater build?? and that his frequency response slope being louder in the ultra low bass when compared to the upper bass was "no bueno" ???

the lowering of spl at a mere 40hz is pathetic....35hz is where it just starts to get good.


here is audyysey on/off with focals.



your laudatory praise for a graph that slopes downwards is for a manipulated graph...cause no graph of any sub I know of slopes down...they all slope up. so major eq ****ery. this type of eq pushing the hardest octaves the loudest isnt bueno. but hey...whatever.
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512

Last edited by torii; 03-24-2020 at 03:23 AM.
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