Help Me Decide: 2 x ULS-15 Mk2 or F18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Help Me Decide: 2 x ULS-15 Mk2 or F18

Howdy! Looking for some input from the resident experts.

I'm currently using a Klipsch RW-12 from 2004, and it's (long past) time for an upgrade for my combo of music (70% - rock, jazz, blues, acoustic) and HT (30%).

My living room (carpet over plywood flooring) is 18' L x 12.5' W x 8' H (~1,800 cu.ft.). The primary listening/viewing position (PLP) is basically centered, 4.5' from the back wall.

The Klipsch sub is located on the front wall, tucked between the AV/TV stand and the FL speaker (Boston Acoustics VR3), ~40" from the left wall. After lots of sub-crawling, this location offers the best overall response for all seating positions. The best bass response at the PLP comes from locating the sub immediately to the left of the PLP, ~40" from the left wall and ~4.5' from the back wall.


Okay, with all of that out of the way, let's get down to it:

For a difference of $29, I am ready to buy either a single Rythmik F18 or dual Hsu ULS-15 Mk2.

I'm leaning towards HSU for 1) dual subs, yo!, and 2) the compact form factor, giving me ability to easily locate both subs in my LR (I have good placement flexibility).

However, the F18 is clearly in a different performance league, and merits serious consideration at the same (~$1,650 shipped) price point. The downside is that placement would be limited to one of 2 locations -- one adjacent to the PLP, and the other behind the PLP, snug against the back wall.


All comments, suggestions, and questions are welcome. Thanks for your assistance!

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post #2 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 11:51 AM
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The F18 is definitely the better sub, but it sounds like dual ULS-15's will fit into your room easier and with more placement options, so I'd personally go with them
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post #3 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 12:38 PM
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Would you not consider dual LVX12 subs? You get dual subs and the servo benefits for music.
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post #4 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencer Wolfe View Post
Howdy! Looking for some input from the resident experts.

I'm currently using a Klipsch RW-12 from 2004, and it's (long past) time for an upgrade for my combo of music (70% - rock, jazz, blues, acoustic) and HT (30%).

My living room (carpet over plywood flooring) is 18' L x 12.5' W x 8' H (~1,800 cu.ft.). The primary listening/viewing position (PLP) is basically centered, 4.5' from the back wall.

The Klipsch sub is located on the front wall, tucked between the AV/TV stand and the FL speaker (Boston Acoustics VR3), ~40" from the left wall. After lots of sub-crawling, this location offers the best overall response for all seating positions. The best bass response at the PLP comes from locating the sub immediately to the left of the PLP, ~40" from the left wall and ~4.5' from the back wall.


Okay, with all of that out of the way, let's get down to it:

For a difference of $29, I am ready to buy either a single Rythmik F18 or dual Hsu ULS-15 Mk2.

I'm leaning towards HSU for 1) dual subs, yo!, and 2) the compact form factor, giving me ability to easily locate both subs in my LR (I have good placement flexibility).

However, the F18 is clearly in a different performance league, and merits serious consideration at the same (~$1,650 shipped) price point. The downside is that placement would be limited to one of 2 locations -- one adjacent to the PLP, and the other behind the PLP, snug against the back wall.


All comments, suggestions, and questions are welcome. Thanks for your assistance!
Indeed... you have a conundrum. I'm a proponent of buying the biggest and best singular sub within your budget...both mfg design & make great subs. As other will allude too...duals are beneficial but you must ask yourself which is the better sub? For most folks it will be the F18 hands down.
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post #5 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Would you not consider dual LVX12 subs? You get dual subs and the servo benefits for music.
This is a good suggestion, but I prefer sealed subs for music.

If I decide to spend up to $2K, a pair of Rythmik F12 is the obvious choice.
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post #6 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 01:51 PM
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^^ L22 pair for under $2k is a better choice than the F12's pair IMO.
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post #7 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 02:23 PM
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What about a single E15HP2 with the possibility of adding a second later?

They have nearly the same performance of the F18 in a smaller package. Would the size of it open up additional placement options for you down the road?
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post #8 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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What about a single E15HP2 with the possibility of adding a second later?

They have nearly the same performance of the F18 in a smaller package. Would the size of it open up additional placement options for you down the road?
Excellent suggestion, and I like your reasoning. The E15HP will work in the same locations as the ULS-15.

And, I may decide that a 2nd sub isn't needed.

Not sure why I hadn't given this model a closer look previously. Thanks!

>>> Question: How big is your room?
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post #9 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 02:45 PM
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^ Mine are open to the whole house. 20K+ cubic ft. But have the E15HP's, not the E15HP2.

HP2 has the same amp as the F18 I believe.

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post #10 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by derekmoore View Post

HP2 has the same amp as the F18 I believe.
Correct. A single HP2 would probably kill it in my room.

It's now at the top of my list. Thanks again for the suggestion!
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post #11 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 03:16 PM
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I'd take a hard look at the PSA S1512. It uses an exceptionally high quality pro audio Neo magnet 15" driver. I would toss it into the ring as one of the best 15" sealed subs made.

If you could fit the larger 18's, a pair of Rythmik F18's would be very good, better than the Hsu's. But I'd take a pair of well placed Hsu 15's over a single poorly placed 18, or even a poorly placed pair of 18's.

No matter how small you make the cab, an 18" sub is big in a living room. I currently have a pair of subs using one of the best 18" drivers made. They are phenomenal, but I want something smaller. I'm *very* picky because these 18's have some of the best measured performance of any driver ever tested. I am downsizing subs and have chosen a pair of the PSA S1512 as my replacements.

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post #12 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 03:53 PM
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^^ So you had already got your s1512’s and listened to them? Beside psa subs and your DIY subs you had, what subs have you listened to? JTR? Rythmik? Seaton? Funk? If you haven’t listened to anything else beside psa, then I wouldn’t go around continuously advertising the Sxx12 by psa being one of the best sealed sub just because the ipal/neo driver is used. Until then, I take your suggestion /recommendation as being from a psa loyal fan.
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post #13 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 04:37 PM
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If you plan to get a second F18 down the road, go with the rythmik, if you don't, go with the dual HSU! I have a couple of ULS-15MK2 in my 2100 cubic ft and they don't disappoint.
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post #14 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 04:49 PM
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^^ So you had already got your s1512’s and listened to them? Beside psa subs and your DIY subs you had, what subs have you listened to? JTR? Rythmik? Seaton? Funk? If you haven’t listened to anything else beside psa, then I wouldn’t go around continuously advertising the Sxx12 by psa being one of the best sealed sub just because the ipal/neo driver is used. Until then, I take your suggestion /recommendation as being from a psa loyal fan.
You seem to have a real issue against PSA. I get it that you are a big Rythmik fan. You recommended them, and no one including myself, went off on a fanboy rampage criticizing you for it. Your fanboy vigilantiism is very disingenuous. Give it a rest.

By the way, I don't currently own any PSA product, and haven't in years. What subs do you own? Shouldn't throw stones in glass houses if you ask me.
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^^ Unlike you, I don’t go around and continuously recommending something I have not listened to. It is getting real old and make no sense. I have been owning my fv15s for years and have listened to psa, seaton, jtr, hsu, svs, funk and bunches of crazy extreme DIY setups. Again, if you have not listened to anything else but psa and your diy subs, then your psa s1512 recommendation as ‘one of the best’ has no value, perhaps it is the best only within psa models.
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post #16 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 05:02 PM
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^^ So you had already got your s1512’s and listened to them? Beside psa subs and your DIY subs you had, what subs have you listened to? JTR? Rythmik? Seaton? Funk? If you haven’t listened to anything else beside psa, then I wouldn’t go around continuously advertising the Sxx12 by psa being one of the best sealed sub just because the ipal/neo driver is used. Until then, I take your suggestion /recommendation as being from a psa loyal fan.
No dog in the fight, but what is wrong with suggesting a product you believe in?

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^^ Unlike you, I don’t go around and continuously recommending something I have not listened to. It is getting real old and make no sense. I have been owning my fv15s for years and have listened to psa, seaton, jtr, hsu, svs, funk and bunches of crazy extreme DIY setups. Again, if you have not listened to anything else but psa and your diy subs, then your psa s1512 recommendation as ‘one of the best’ has no value, perhaps it is the best only within psa models.
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No dog in the fight, but what is wrong with suggesting a product you believe in?
Valid point. Carry on.

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^* Read the post above. I said all I need to say. Carry on...
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post #19 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 05:11 PM
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^* Read the post above. I said all I need to say. Carry on...
If you check my post in which I quoted both you and myself, you answered my question. You make a valid point. I wasn't being facetious when I wrote "Carry on" more like "nevermind me"
Again, I don't have a dog in this fight

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post #20 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 05:25 PM
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^* Read the post above. I said all I need to say. Carry on...
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that an extraordinarily high quality driver, in a well constructed sealed cab, using a good amp, engineered by a competent designer with a proven track record of producing excellent prodcuts, will result in a great sub.

I don't subscribe to the old fashioned, out dated, small minded mantra that you "have to listen to something in your home" to know if it will sound good or not. I bought speakers sight unseen and unheard, because decades of the most rigorous scientific research indicates that a product with good measurements will sound good.

The type of drivers used in PSA subs, even specifically from the same company(B&C) have been extensively tested on Data-Bass. They *all* show the same result. Extremely high power handling. Exceptionally low distortion. Exceptionally high sensitivity for astounding SPL with reasonable power applied. Again, its not rocket science. Enjoy your favorite brand. Don't be so upset that a different company uses better drivers than your fan boy favorite.
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post #21 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 05:47 PM
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I guess until we see an S1812 tested by data bass we will never know if it’s “better driver” truly puts up better numbers than say an F18. There is more to a sub than just the driver in my opinion. The numbers on DB for Rythmiks seem impressive.
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post #22 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 05:49 PM
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We'll the individual here asked for a comparison in his OP. The 2 mfgs he's seeking advice on both make excellent products...idk...if he's open to other suggestions...let's not send another sub thread off the rails.

Just saying...
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Bear, We have been through these exact same points recently. Discussed here and many other threads. Again, if you have not heard anything else other than psa, you just don’t know. Nothing’s new here, it just proves that you are nothing but a psa loyal fan. Carry on ....

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post59385672

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post #24 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 05:51 PM
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We'll the individual here asked for a comparison in his OP. The 2 mfgs he's seeking advice on both make excellent products...idk...if he's open to other suggestions...let's not send another sub thread off the rails.

Just saying...
^^ This. Enough said.
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post #25 of 34 Old 03-26-2020, 07:23 PM
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If you check my post in which I quoted both you and myself, you answered my question. You make a valid point. I wasn't being facetious when I wrote "Carry on" more like "nevermind me"
Again, I don't have a dog in this fight
I think we happened to post at the same time. The ‘carry on’ I posted was not against you.
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post #26 of 34 Old 03-27-2020, 02:42 AM
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I guess until we see an S1812 tested by data bass we will never know if it’s “better driver” truly puts up better numbers than say an F18. There is more to a sub than just the driver in my opinion. The numbers on DB for Rythmiks seem impressive.
Opinions are great and all, but I like to rely on facts as well. Inaccurate, sighted in person demos give some info also, but are usually highly flawed(i.e failure to level match, wildly different in room frequency response). Accurate measurements illustrate the truth and leave out all the inaccuracies of sighted in room or in store demo's.

The driver's I use, which I bought due to the measured performance, without hearing them in my room first, were literally slapped in a 4ft^3 sealed box without any magical engineering or eq, at Data-Bass. Power was applied and resulted in higher output with lower distortion than the F18. I'm not a blind loyalist like Tuvong....I am actually capable of saying other products are good, or even excellent. And the F18 turns in excellent performance. But an exceptionally high quality driver, better than the driver used in the F18, a driver that does not use servo, was slapped in a box and turned in better performance. Again this is not rocket science.

I've heard plenty of subs....it has no impact on factual data. Great drivers perform great whether I have listened to 10 subs, 20 subs, or 30 subs. Great drivers used in simple, sealed cabs by competent subwoofer designers result in good performance. It's a really simple, easy to understand concept backed up by lots of factual data on Data-Bass. All the pro audio drivers on Data-Bass were literally just slapped into a sealed cab and tested. No magic. Just great drivers that *all* have outstanding measured performance.

This is not aimed towards you, at all, but for someone to argue that how many subs a person has heard is the only way to validly have an informed opinion on a product is silly. Furthermore, said person has absolutely no idea how many different subs I have had or heard. So even if his silly argument had any validity, he is making baseless assumptions thinking that he is proving a point somehow. You can't say "if you haven't heard a sub in person you can't form an opinion on it", and then follow that up with "the F18 measures well on data-bass". Either measured performance is a valid indicator of sound quality, or it isn't, you can't have it both ways. The F18 measures well. Its a great sounding sub. I've never heard one. But as a person with a brain, I know there are ways to determine the truth without first hand experience. I've never sailed around the world, but I'm confident it is round.

Tuvong, we get it. You love Rythmik. And we are all ok with it. Enjoy your subs. You'll be happier if you accept that other companies make good subs as well; some of them even use better drivers.
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post #27 of 34 Old 03-27-2020, 03:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd take a hard look at the PSA S1512. It uses an exceptionally high quality pro audio Neo magnet 15" driver. I would toss it into the ring as one of the best 15" sealed subs made.

If you could fit the larger 18's, a pair of Rythmik F18's would be very good, better than the Hsu's. But I'd take a pair of well placed Hsu 15's over a single poorly placed 18, or even a poorly placed pair of 18's.
.
Thanks for your suggestion. I'll add the S1512 to the list of contenders.

And your comments concerning 15" vs 18" are very helpful.
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post #28 of 34 Old 03-27-2020, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Opinions are great and all, but I like to rely on factsas well.
The facts? What facts do you have on the s1512 (as a whole sub) that you have been recommending? I get it, the driver it uses tested on databass with Powersoft amp that costs more than $5000 (IIRC). Now that I think about it, IIRC, data-bass only tested the 18" and 21" drivers, not the 15". What data fact do you have for the psa s1512? Please show us some graphs and data measurements. Consumers are eager to see. We can't even get these information from PSA. The facts are you have not listened to the s1512 nor the JTR, Funk, Rythmik, Seaton and stated that the s1512 is 'one of the best', you might want to state it as opinion as IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Tuvong, we get it. You love Rythmik. And we are all ok with it. Enjoy your subs. You'll be happier if you accept that other companies make good subs as well; some of them even use better drivers.
I love Rythmik and many others. I just don't go around and recommend only Rythmik. I know JTR, Seaton, Funk make very good products that I often recommended since I had the pleasure to experience/listen to them first hand. The PSA subs I listened to, which happens to be the one you also love and recommend all the time, are not as good as others. That had me questioning your recommendation. I have not listened to the newer psa 12/ipal series, so I cannot comment on them.
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post #29 of 34 Old 03-27-2020, 07:14 AM
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I agree about the Powersoft amp, but those drivers have been tested with Speaker power amps as well and the measurements are still really good. The only difference is about 3-4db less upper end output mainly because the IPAL and BMS have very high power handling, but the distortion profile is still very good and likely really good even with cheap behringer amplification.

Just curious, Have you heard the L22 and do you have any performance data for it? That sub doesn't get brought up too much so I am kind of curious what it might compare to.
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post #30 of 34 Old 03-27-2020, 07:23 AM
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^^ I have not listened to the L22 ($900) but from what I have been reading from people who own them that it is a very good sub and it is a sleeper in Rythmik line up. it is about 1.5db less than the ~$1300 F15hp
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