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post #1 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Atypical Subwoofer Question

This forum and Google have unlimited threads on connecting two subs, but none answer my question:
If I connect one sub and set it to LFE (on the sub), and connect a second sub (using a "Y" adapter from the receiver) and set it to 60hz (rather than LFE), am I going to get the full LFE signal out of the sub set to LFE and only 60hz and below out of the sub set to 60 hz? (The receiver is set to LFE.)
Please only reply if you know the answer to my EXACT question.
Thank you.
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post #2 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 12:42 PM
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You already know the answer. Yes.

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post #3 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 02:29 PM
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Please don't ask questions you already know the answer to
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post #4 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

WTF is wrong with you "nice" guys? I thought this was supposed to be a mature, considerate forum. I asked a genuine question and expected a civilized answer from someone who had experience with the particular setup I asked about.

Has anyone considered the possibility that the sub set on 60 hz could have an impact on the sub set on LFE, considering the fact that they are both connected to the same output on the receiver? This is the same as putting 2 speakers in parallel connected to one output, which obviously changes certain variables of the connection (compared to 1 speaker connected to the same output). There are also other factors to consider, such as the load the two subs put on the receiver, the receiver's settings related to LFE, crossover frequency, etc, all of which could possibly be influenced by (or influencing) the connection.

Maybe I'm over-analyzing the subject, but I like to be as well-informed as possible before before attempting anything that could have a negative influence on, or worse, possibly damage, my system (sub crossovers, my receiver, etc.). So I apologize if I asked (what seems like some of you consider) a "stupid" question, but I consider it an "intelligent" question, considering all of the unknown variables. So "jump on the bandwagon" and continue flaming me for asking an innocent question if you feel the need, but it would help me out more (and make the world a nicer place ) if someone politely replied with a "real" answer.

Thank you!
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post #5 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Please only reply if you know the answer to my EXACT question.
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post #6 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 05:30 PM
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Simple answer (?):

Your AVR is just sending the signal, and your sub's amplifiers are producing whatever you have them set to.


Hope this helps,

Darrell




FWIW, You really did answer your own question.

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post #7 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 07:23 PM
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^^^

I think that the real problem is that the answer to your question is either very simple (Yes!) or it is very complicated, if people try to help you understand all of the ramifications of doing what you suggest. Your initial post only required a binary, yes/no answer. And, you got that immediately, along with some teasing due to the way you phrased your question.

Your second post, however reflected some awareness that you might not actually be asking a simple question at all. For instance, if one subwoofer is only set to 60Hz, it will not only stop playing LFE content a little above that (there will be a gradual roll-off above 60Hz) but it will also stop playing frequencies above that in the regular channels, as well.

And, if you are using any sort of automated room EQ, I have no idea what it will do with one sub which plays 120Hz, and one sub which only plays 60Hz. I suspect that it will simply stop EQing at all below about 60Hz, because the combined SPL of the two subwoofers will be rolling-off by -3dB at that frequency.

If you had REW and a miniDSP, you might be able to make sense out of what you are proposing to do. Without them, I'm not at all sure that you can. So, there you go! That's a more serious answer.

Regards,
Mike
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post #8 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
Simple answer (?):

Your AVR is just sending the signal, and your sub's amplifiers are producing whatever you have them set to.


Hope this helps,

Darrell




FWIW, You really did answer your own question.
Hi Darrell.
First, thanks for the considerate reply. I am glad to learn that my connection will work as desired without causing, or being impacted by, anything I mentioned in my second post (Post #4 ).
Second, this is sincere, not sarcasm:
For my own benefit, I am trying to figure out how I "answered my own question." I read my original post several times and I see that I provided all the details, but for the life of me, I can't see anything that I wrote that answers the question asked. If you have time, can you please explain it to me?
Thanks again.
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post #9 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
^^^

I think that the real problem is that the answer to your question is either very simple (Yes!) or it is very complicated, if people try to help you understand all of the ramifications of doing what you suggest. Your initial post only required a binary, yes/no answer. And, you got that immediately, along with some teasing due to the way you phrased your question.

Your second post, however reflected some awareness that you might not actually be asking a simple question at all. For instance, if one subwoofer is only set to 60Hz, it will not only stop playing LFE content a little above that (there will be a gradual roll-off above 60Hz) but it will also stop playing frequencies above that in the regular channels, as well.

And, if you are using any sort of automated room EQ, I have no idea what it will do with one sub which plays 120Hz, and one sub which only plays 60Hz. I suspect that it will simply stop EQing at all below about 60Hz, because the combined SPL of the two subwoofers will be rolling-off by -3dB at that frequency.

If you had REW and a miniDSP, you might be able to make sense out of what you are proposing to do. Without them, I'm not at all sure that you can. So, there you go! That's a more serious answer.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike.
Thanks for the detailed answer.
This is my scenario:
I had a 5.1 set of speakers and the sub just wasn't providing enough bass. So after a while, I purchased a nice big sub that accomplished the task. Now, about a year later, I just purchased a very, very good set of fronts and a matching center speaker. After experimenting with each sub, I find that with the new speakers, the system "blends" better with the smaller sub than with the newer large sub for "audiophile-type" listening. But when I listen to movies, or hard rock music, I want the bass to shake the walls and rattle the windows! Therefore, I want to add the large sub and have it do the heavy lifting below approximately 60hz when listening at eardrum-bursting levels, but still have the better balanced output from the small sub when the audio from the movie or hard rock is not outputting heavy bass requiring the large sub. Whew!
Thanks.
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post #10 of 14 Old 03-26-2020, 09:06 PM
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You probably need to find a new position for the bigger sub that is not blending well. Bass is always all about position. Sub Crawl yet?

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #11 of 14 Old 03-27-2020, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVS For View Post
Hi Mike.
Thanks for the detailed answer.
This is my scenario:
I had a 5.1 set of speakers and the sub just wasn't providing enough bass. So after a while, I purchased a nice big sub that accomplished the task. Now, about a year later, I just purchased a very, very good set of fronts and a matching center speaker. After experimenting with each sub, I find that with the new speakers, the system "blends" better with the smaller sub than with the newer large sub for "audiophile-type" listening. But when I listen to movies, or hard rock music, I want the bass to shake the walls and rattle the windows! Therefore, I want to add the large sub and have it do the heavy lifting below approximately 60hz when listening at eardrum-bursting levels, but still have the better balanced output from the small sub when the audio from the movie or hard rock is not outputting heavy bass requiring the large sub. Whew!
Thanks.

You are welcome, but unfortunately, I don't believe my answer was quite correct with respect to automated room EQ. But then, you may not even have any form of room EQ. What you are proposing is extremely unusual, even by AVS forum standards, where people try unusual setups all the time. It can be very difficult to make subwoofers with inherently different capabilities play well together. The combined sound of two very dissimilar subwoofers may randomly peak at some frequencies and cancel at others.

As Ray suggested, the problem you are experiencing with the larger subwoofer, which doesn't blend very well for music, may be one of positioning. Or, perhaps it is related to something else entirely. You might, for instance, be using different crossovers now. I think if you wanted really serious assistance from people on the forum, you would need to describe your situation in detail, including the two subwoofers in question, how they are positioned in your room, what kind (if any) of automated room EQ you have, and what settings, including crossovers, you are using.

Making even a single subwoofer do what we want it to, in a room, is not always easy. Making two different subwoofers do what we want them to is even harder. Personally, if I really liked the larger sub, I would try to work with it to make it sound better for all my listening content. And, if I really liked the smaller sub that much better, I would get rid of the larger one and just have two of the smaller ones. Getting two identical subs to sound good together still isn't always dead easy, but you would have a much better chance than you will with two very different ones.

If after all of this, though, you are absolutely determined to proceed with your plan, I wouldn't try to use any sort of room EQ that affects the bass frequencies, because it will potentially make things worse. I would probably still do the sub crawl that Ray suggested. And, once I found the best spot for a sub, I would put the small sub on top of the large sub, with something in between to protect the finish.

Then, I would have only the small sub playing for "audiophile" music, and I would only have the large sub playing for room-rattling material. But, both subs would play full-range (120Hz) when it was their turn to play. Personally, I would recommend investing the time and effort to get the large sub to play better, or I would get rid of it. Having two completely different subwoofers is sort of a waste, and it's probably never going to work very well for you.

But, if you are determined to have one subwoofer playing most of your music, and the other subwoofer for movies and hard rock, then I would let them take turns playing, from the best spot in the room. And, I wouldn't try to use any sort of bass EQ in the process. That is likely to make things worse, instead of better, if you try to EQ them together, or EQ one and then change to another. I would just turn one off, and the other one on whenever I wanted to listen to each one, if I were really determined to do this.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #12 of 14 Old 03-27-2020, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
Simple answer (?):

Your AVR is just sending the signal, and your sub's amplifiers are producing whatever you have them set to.


Hope this helps,

Darrell




FWIW, You really did answer your own question.
Put simply, above is right on.
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post #13 of 14 Old 03-27-2020, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
You probably need to find a new position for the bigger sub that is not blending well. Bass is always all about position. Sub Crawl yet?
Thanks Ray.

Unfortunately, I have the same dilemma that many people do: I have very limited wall-space that isn't used by furniture. That limits me to choosing between the few spots the big sub will fit in, or getting a divorce because I moved the furniture. (The more I think about it, the better the idea of getting a divorce sounds!) I tried the sub crawl in the limited available locations with the big sub, and it sounds best where it is. The small sub just happened to sound perfect right where I "plopped" it down the other day when I got my excellent fronts and center.

I think I will have to just use the small sub alone for "audiophile" listening and use the big sub alone for the rest.

Thanks for the reply.
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post #14 of 14 Old 03-27-2020, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You are welcome, but unfortunately, I don't believe my answer was quite correct with respect to automated room EQ. But then, you may not even have any form of room EQ. What you are proposing is extremely unusual, even by AVS forum standards, where people try unusual setups all the time. It can be very difficult to make subwoofers with inherently different capabilities play well together. The combined sound of two very dissimilar subwoofers may randomly peak at some frequencies and cancel at others.

As Ray suggested, the problem you are experiencing with the larger subwoofer, which doesn't blend very well for music, may be one of positioning. Or, perhaps it is related to something else entirely. You might, for instance, be using different crossovers now. I think if you wanted really serious assistance from people on the forum, you would need to describe your situation in detail, including the two subwoofers in question, how they are positioned in your room, what kind (if any) of automated room EQ you have, and what settings, including crossovers, you are using.

Making even a single subwoofer do what we want it to, in a room, is not always easy. Making two different subwoofers do what we want them to is even harder. Personally, if I really liked the larger sub, I would try to work with it to make it sound better for all my listening content. And, if I really liked the smaller sub that much better, I would get rid of the larger one and just have two of the smaller ones. Getting two identical subs to sound good together still isn't always dead easy, but you would have a much better chance than you will with two very different ones.

If after all of this, though, you are absolutely determined to proceed with your plan, I wouldn't try to use any sort of room EQ that affects the bass frequencies, because it will potentially make things worse. I would probably still do the sub crawl that Ray suggested. And, once I found the best spot for a sub, I would put the small sub on top of the large sub, with something in between to protect the finish.

Then, I would have only the small sub playing for "audiophile" music, and I would only have the large sub playing for room-rattling material. But, both subs would play full-range (120Hz) when it was their turn to play. Personally, I would recommend investing the time and effort to get the large sub to play better, or I would get rid of it. Having two completely different subwoofers is sort of a waste, and it's probably never going to work very well for you.

But, if you are determined to have one subwoofer playing most of your music, and the other subwoofer for movies and hard rock, then I would let them take turns playing, from the best spot in the room. And, I wouldn't try to use any sort of bass EQ in the process. That is likely to make things worse, instead of better, if you try to EQ them together, or EQ one and then change to another. I would just turn one off, and the other one on whenever I wanted to listen to each one, if I were really determined to do this.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for another detailed reply Mike.

The only type of EQ I have available is the very limited Audyssey system built into my Denon receiver. I think your last paragraph is my best choice (use the small sub alone for "audiophile" listening and use the big sub alone for the rest) due to the limitations outlined in my reply to Ray.

Thank you again for the help.
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