Where is the chest slam? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
Re-locating the subwoofer or your MLP. Search for "sub crawl" and you might find a new suitable location. If you can't find a good location you will either have to live with it or add more subs to your room, since the more subs you have, the more your bass response and dispersion evens out.
You could also try crossing to your sub at 60Hz and playing with the delays a bit, that might or might not work. If you have decently capable mains that is.
I also don't know how well this SVS handles the 'slam' frequencies from 60-100Hz. I know that my Klipsch sub doesn't do that well. My dual 21" SKHorn does.
No need for "sub crawl" he has a mic and REW, 100x quicker and 1000x more accurate

whilst nowhere near the midbass capabilities of a dual 21" SKHorn , dual PB-3000's should be capable of 123dB+ from 40Hz and up
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post #32 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 03:10 AM
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true chest slam needs 130+ db spl imo in a home living space.

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post #33 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
whilst nowhere near the midbass capabilities of a dual 21" SKHorn , dual PB-3000's should be capable of 123dB+ from 40Hz and up

While high output is good and all, the impulse response and group delay are very important when it comes to upper bass accuracy. Even at moderate volumes of say100db in the bass region, the SKHorn has a clear advantage over my Klipsch sub. Bear in mind that it's ofc a lower end Klipsch and I'm not doubting anyone who says the SVS has good midbass. Just saying that SPL isn't everything here. And ofc the SKHorn probably has like 30db more headroom in that region over the small single 12" Klipsch sub, which is nice to have

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post #34 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Russ_130 View Post
Big shout out to subwoofer 101 and his distance hack! Really change it!
Wow! That is a tremendous improvement

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post #35 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
Re-locating the subwoofer or your MLP. Search for "sub crawl" and you might find a new suitable location. If you can't find a good location you will either have to live with it or add more subs to your room, since the more subs you have, the more your bass response and dispersion evens out.
You could also try crossing to your sub at 60Hz and playing with the delays a bit, that might or might not work. If you have decently capable mains that is.
I also don't know how well this SVS handles the 'slam' frequencies from 60-100Hz. I know that my Klipsch sub doesn't do that well. My dual 21" SKHorn does.
The SVS handle them very well, and want to say from your SKHorn built on your Signature.
You have some very impressive tools, to built this impressive sub of yours
Also from your Signature, the video from those guys. Do have an impressive, room treatments for the acoustic.


Darth

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post #36 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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So now that’s it better there is still a small dip. I still get no slam. I have felt chest punch a couple times at some concert so I know that I feel it. I also had a sing jbl es250p before and got slam but it died. My question is that if I return these and get Vtf-15 mk2 and a minidsp 2by4 will that’s get me slam? In this room and set up?
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post #37 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
lol ! here we go again........
let me guess, psa? jtr? hsu?
Bose!
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post #38 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dwander View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afy10voc5kc

I would also watch his videos on proper setup, and gain matching to yield the best results in output and frequency response.
thank you for posting that video.

i think i have my xovers set improperly (sub at 120 with rest of speakers set at 150).

my UMIK-1 will be delivered tuesday, so i plan on spending all day on thursday playing......looks like i have some reading to do.

thanks again for posting that video.

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post #39 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ_130 View Post
So now that’s it better there is still a small dip. I still get no slam. I have felt chest punch a couple times at some concert so I know that I feel it. I also had a sing jbl es250p before and got slam but it died. My question is that if I return these and get Vtf-15 mk2 and a minidsp 2by4 will that’s get me slam? In this room and set up?
Larger drivers will help for sure.
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post #40 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MATTHEW PATIENT View Post
thank you for posting that video.

i think i have my xovers set improperly (sub at 120 with rest of speakers set at 150).

my UMIK-1 will be delivered tuesday, so i plan on spending all day on thursday playing......looks like i have some reading to do.

thanks again for posting that video.
No problem. I find his videos really helpful. There are some guides floating around this forum also which is what i used to get started but in the end i prefer his videos. His approach is slightly different and has helped me get better results. I started using the umik and REW to help dial things in also. After playing with it for a while and getting comfortable with it, then i added the miniDSP this past weekend and took it to another level. But even without the minidsp you can get solid results just by proper placement, crossovers, gain match, and time alignment. Plus you can use the Audyssey app to add a house curve and get more punch that way also. So theres plenty at your disposal just with the REW and the ausyssey app. Good Luck!
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post #41 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dwander View Post
No problem. I find his videos really helpful. There are some guides floating around this forum also which is what i used to get started but in the end i prefer his videos. His approach is slightly different and has helped me get better results. I started using the umik and REW to help dial things in also. After playing with it for a while and getting comfortable with it, then i added the miniDSP this past weekend and took it to another level. But even without the minidsp you can get solid results just by proper placement, crossovers, gain match, and time alignment. Plus you can use the Audyssey app to add a house curve and get more punch that way also. So theres plenty at your disposal just with the REW and the ausyssey app. Good Luck!

thank you.

just got an update from DHL saying the umik-1 is getting delivered today. so i have all weekend to read, learn and play.


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post #42 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
You can run your sub nearfield and add another later on, also the mains play a big role in chest slam. Speakers like the JTR 212HTs would provide great chest slam in addition to what the sub can do.
Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Mains contribute how? Assuming someone is using 80 Cross over there is no issue in the crossover region, how would a main that has 1 or 2 12" drivers that can go down to 40Hz VS a speaker with 1 8" that goes down to 80Hz make the difference?
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post #43 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Russ_130 View Post
So now that’s it better there is still a small dip. I still get no slam. I have felt chest punch a couple times at some concert so I know that I feel it. I also had a sing jbl es250p before and got slam but it died. My question is that if I return these and get Vtf-15 mk2 and a minidsp 2by4 will that’s get me slam? In this room and set up?

Personally, I wouldn't just jump around with different subwoofers quite yet. I would start by trying to determine what frequencies make you feel chest punch, and then make adjustments accordingly. I mentioned this earlier, but different people may feel chest punch sensations at somewhat different frequencies and volume levels.

Run some sweeps at higher volume levels (85dB and up) to try to determine where you start to feel sympathetic resonance in your chest. That's really what chest punch is: the air-filled cavity of the chest resonating (vibrating) harmonically, with loud percussive sounds at particular frequencies. And, those frequencies will probably be a little different for many of us.

Once you know what frequency range you are really looking for, you can use a miniDSP to add a boost in that range if necessary. And, you might also try adjusting your crossovers to maximize your chest punch, once you know what you are looking for. So, I would start with a miniDSP, and if I really needed to I would even consider adding something like a Behringer B1200D nearfield, behind my chair, to provide even more chest punch than can be provided in the usual way.

Some people just want more of the tactile sensations that others may take for granted that their subs can provide. That is true for low-bass tactile sensations (tactile transducers and BOSS platforms), and it can be true for mid-bass chest punch as well. This thread was mentioned earlier:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-response.html

But, if a pair of properly calibrated PB3000's aren't able to generate the chest punch sensation for you, it is unlikely that the HSU subs, with similar mid-bass capabilities, will do any better. Just take this whole process systematically. You can always return the PB3000's if you really need to, and I imagine that SVS would even give you a slight extension on the return period if you are still in a serious trial process. Since Ed Mullen has already posted on this thread, he knows that you are trying to make the subs work.

Regards,
Mike
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post #44 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Mains contribute how? Assuming someone is using 80 Cross over there is no issue in the crossover region, how would a main that has 1 or 2 12" drivers that can go down to 40Hz VS a speaker with 1 8" that goes down to 80Hz make the difference?
Mid bass is typically from 50-100hz but those are not concrete walls, mains like the JTR have 12 inch drivers that are high excursion and provide a lot chest slam as @chucky7 noticed even with his Cap 4000
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post #45 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Mid bass is typically from 50-100hz but those are not concrete walls, mains like the JTR have 12 inch drivers that are high excursion and provide a lot chest slam as @chucky7 noticed even with his Cap 4000
Assuming you have EQ on main to boost b/w 100-200Hz. Even though subs take over at 80 (assuming its the cross over), mains don't just stop at 80Hz. Its a slope curve for both sides and even when mains are CO at 80, they will go up to 50 but way lowered at that time as compared to how they are at 100Hz. But I think to get more out of these mains with large speakers, one has to do some EQ in 50-200Hz range to utilize these drivers. I don't think a 12" driver VS an 8" driver will make a difference if both are played flat.
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post #46 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrisu View Post
Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Mains contribute how? Assuming someone is using 80 Cross over there is no issue in the crossover region, how would a main that has 1 or 2 12" drivers that can go down to 40Hz VS a speaker with 1 8" that goes down to 80Hz make the difference?
There really isn't a definite range for mid bass... The most common range I see is from as low as 50Hz to as high as 160Hz... And that is assuming people are really referring to just mid bass not including upper bass, which can go up to 300Hz.






If it's 50~160Hz, then everything above 80Hz are still mostly handled by the 5 or 7 base layer speakers. This is why having high sensitivity mains can contribute to chest slam, which are induced by high SPL. These high sensitivity speakers are just more dynamic.

Many PSA sub owners say PSA subs provide great chest slam. I noticed that many of them also have PSA speakers, which are also high sensitivity speakers.

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post #47 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
The SVS handle them very well, and want to say from your SKHorn built on your Signature.
You have some very impressive tools, to built this impressive sub of yours
Also from your Signature, the video from those guys. Do have an impressive, room treatments for the acoustic.


Darth

Thanks, in the year since I built that sub I also happened to buy a CNC router and some other sweet things to make my life even easier. I built another 4 subs (my own designs this time) in the meantime and will eventually make build threads for those as well.

And the video in my signature is in my studio, I also built all those acoustic panels (and the room basically) myself I like woodworking! The room is absolute garbage for bass thou. It's almost round, so we have lots of trouble at 31Hz basically everywhere in the room. We have a single 8" sub in that studio and we reach 120db at 30Hz with it at the MLP, it's crazy!
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post #48 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ_130 View Post
Big shout out to subwoofer 101 and his distance hack! Really change it!

Can you provide more details on what the distance hack is that you implemented? What settings and values did you use?

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post #49 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Can you provide more details on what the distance hack is that you implemented? What settings and values did you use?
Sounds like a variation of the "Sub Distance Tweak" (SDT)

Quote:

Quote:
Sub Distance Tweak:

1. Measure the center channel and the subs with REW or comparable software (REW HDMI CH3) using a test tone of 80Hz, or whatever corresponds to the crossover.
2. Add to the sub distance setting of one subwoofer (or of both subs equally, if using an AVR which has a single subwoofer distance setting) in 1' increments. (With some AVR's, you must make sure to back-out of the distance setting menu before the new setting will take effect.)
3. Remeasure.
4. Repeat until you get the smoothest transition around the crossover.
5. If using an 80Hz crossover, it would not typically be beneficial to add or subtract more than about 7' of distance. That corresponds to one-half of an 80Hz wavelength, and a change of one-half wavelength would change the phase of a subwoofer by 180 degrees.
6. We normally have to choose between a good transition for the center channel and the subs, or for the front speakers and the subs. If someone is primarily interested in movies, balance the compromise in favor of CC+sub; and for music, measure with the L/R+sub.

It should be noted again that the procedure outlined above may not be necessary unless someone is either sufficiently curious to measure his results, and discovers something specific in the frequency response, or unless someone hears something that leads him to suspect that significant cancellation could be occurring.
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post #50 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
true chest slam needs 130+ db spl imo in a home living space.
130db seems like a lot no?
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post #51 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
130db seems like a lot no?
It's very dependent on the room and the person... People listening in a 5000+ cubic foot room will need considerably more SPL than someone like me listening in a 2350 cubic foot room.

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post #52 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 02:26 PM
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There are a lot of variables that come into play. Imo it has more to do with sub placement in relation to listening position combined with SPL and driver size. Larger more efficient drivers have more impact and slam then smaller less efficient drivers at the same SPL level. The further the subs are away the larger the driver needs to be and the more SPL is required to get the Slam imo. Nearfield allows you get a lot of slam with less SPL. A few years back I compared a SVS PC12NSD to a PSA XV15 and I found the XV15 to feel stronger even with them both playing at the same SPL level. I own SVS, PSA, JTR, and Outlaw so I am not biased to PSA subs. I am biased to larger driver subs if you have the room for them.
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post #53 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Will adding a third sub help? Thinking adding maybe a pc2000 pro
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post #54 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ_130 View Post
Will adding a third sub help? Thinking adding maybe a pc2000 pro
Yes if you can place it close(near field) to the Main listening position. With the 45day trial it's worth it to experiment anyway. I like SVS subs in general...I think if you could of placed a pair of 3000's close to the MLP they would have plenty of slam.
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post #55 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 04:15 PM
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Bose!

LOL, too funny


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post #56 of 66 Old 04-03-2020, 04:17 PM
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Will adding a third sub help? Thinking adding maybe a pc2000 pro
Than why not trying one of your sub, to that location?
Since you did mention, they could not be move in post 21. And could be all that is required.


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Last edited by darthray; 04-03-2020 at 04:22 PM.
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post #57 of 66 Old 04-04-2020, 07:06 PM
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You need to move air in large amounts for chest slam, and it has to be quick, very dynamic like a snap. The best drivers for this are ported, low MMS cones with alot of strength and control in the magnet. Most HT subs have great extension but the suspension has to be mushy and soft to achieve those low numbers everyone chases, not quick and snappy. I run several 18” drivers that are exactly what I describe above tuned for 42hz, and then crossed below that are my SI HS24s in sealed boxes. For music, I run the 24s with a 24db HP at 20hz and the 18s HP at 35-40hz. For movies, I run the 24s exclusively for LFE, and my LCR has considerable midbass as they each have 4 12” drivers for LR and 2 in the center so the snappy chest slam for movies comes from my LCR mixed with the HS24s. For music content my LCRs are calibrated to run with the 18s as they are all tuned to 42hz. Live Pop or rock or country performances are nothing short of first 5 rows in a stadium for chest slam.

You need to move air- large cone area, snappy not mushy- Midbass drivers and need them ported to move that air quickly.
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post #58 of 66 Old 04-05-2020, 11:54 AM
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I get plenty of chest slam in my work truck with one 10" 4 ohm DVC to 2 ohm in a shallow mount ported box, driven by a Pioneer 600 watt amp.

In comparison, I have two 12" Dayton HO subs with one driven by 1000 watt amp and the other a 500 watt amp, both in ported boxes in my main system (see sig line), and I've yet to feel any serious chest slam like in the truck. In fact, in not 1 demonstration of high end, high powered subwoofers have I ever had chest slam in the home.

Main: Mitsubishi 73736|OTA|fireTV|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR4311CI|MartinLogan Preface|Phantom|MartinLogan Encore TF|1-1000watt & 1-500watt DIY 12" Subs|2 Bass Shaker|APC H15 Power Conditioner|Harmony Hub|Sennheiser RS 160|SMSL B1 BT Rx|Linksys SE2500
MBR: Vizio VF550M|OTA|fireTV3|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR-X1000|Chane A1rx-c|Phantom|Dayton SAT-BK|MartinLogan Dynamo 300|Belkin PF30|Harmony 550
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post #59 of 66 Old 04-05-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
I get plenty of chest slam in my work truck with one 10" 4 ohm DVC to 2 ohm in a shallow mount ported box, driven by a Pioneer 600 watt amp.

In comparison, I have two 12" Dayton HO subs with one driven by 1000 watt amp and the other a 500 watt amp, both in ported boxes in my main system (see sig line), and I've yet to feel any serious chest slam like in the truck. In fact, in not 1 demonstration of high end, high powered subwoofers have I ever had chest slam in the home.



Cabin volume...
Not SPL, air volume.
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Packing a lot of sound into a small room.
268 square feet/2144 cubic feet
7.2 surround sound.
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post #60 of 66 Old 04-05-2020, 03:32 PM
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Cabin volume...
Not SPL, air volume.
Exactly.

Main: Mitsubishi 73736|OTA|fireTV|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR4311CI|MartinLogan Preface|Phantom|MartinLogan Encore TF|1-1000watt & 1-500watt DIY 12" Subs|2 Bass Shaker|APC H15 Power Conditioner|Harmony Hub|Sennheiser RS 160|SMSL B1 BT Rx|Linksys SE2500
MBR: Vizio VF550M|OTA|fireTV3|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR-X1000|Chane A1rx-c|Phantom|Dayton SAT-BK|MartinLogan Dynamo 300|Belkin PF30|Harmony 550
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