Where is the chest slam? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 66 Old 04-05-2020, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwander View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afy10voc5kc

I would also watch his videos on proper setup, and gain matching to yield the best results in output and frequency response.
Odd video.
He said the kick is in the low bass, where his RTA shows the highest amplitude (later, he actually specifies, "20-30Hz"). I don't see how he arrived at his conclusion.
Imagine you're looking at an RTA of a person talking, while a ULF system is playing 20-30Hz noise. So, say the RTA shows the 20-30Hz is clearly 20dB above everything else, would you then assume the person's voice resides within that 20-30Hz range?
He grossly narrowed the spectral content of a kick drum, by saying it's 50Hz. He also said that nothing will be coming from the mains. Well, unless he's crossing his subs to his tweeters, that bit is flat-out wrong. Plenty will be coming from the mains.


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Originally Posted by FOHTech View Post
You need to move air in large amounts for chest slam, and it has to be quick, very dynamic like a snap. The best drivers for this are ported, low MMS cones with alot of strength and control in the magnet. Most HT subs have great extension but the suspension has to be mushy and soft to achieve those low numbers everyone chases, not quick and snappy. I run several 18” drivers that are exactly what I describe above tuned for 42hz, and then crossed below that are my SI HS24s in sealed boxes. For music, I run the 24s with a 24db HP at 20hz and the 18s HP at 35-40hz. For movies, I run the 24s exclusively for LFE, and my LCR has considerable midbass as they each have 4 12” drivers for LR and 2 in the center so the snappy chest slam for movies comes from my LCR mixed with the HS24s. For music content my LCRs are calibrated to run with the 18s as they are all tuned to 42hz. Live Pop or rock or country performances are nothing short of first 5 rows in a stadium for chest slam.

You need to move air- large cone area, snappy not mushy- Midbass drivers and need them ported to move that air quickly.
Thanks for that.
The HTG fellow, in the video, said that people who implement midbass modules are doing it wrong. Granted, it adds pitfalls and is more work, but that doesn't mean he had to throw eveyone under the bus.
I took exception to the way he stated it so matter of factly. People who don't know any better will believe him. Even worse, if the believers are looking for massive kick, that video is likely to send them down the wrong path to 20-30Hz.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
I get plenty of chest slam in my work truck with one 10" 4 ohm DVC to 2 ohm in a shallow mount ported box, driven by a Pioneer 600 watt amp.

In comparison, I have two 12" Dayton HO subs with one driven by 1000 watt amp and the other a 500 watt amp, both in ported boxes in my main system (see sig line), and I've yet to feel any serious chest slam like in the truck. In fact, in not 1 demonstration of high end, high powered subwoofers have I ever had chest slam in the home.
Small cabin, close proximity. You get more, for less, in your truck.
Speaking of a small cabin, did someone say "chest slam"?
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post #62 of 66 Old 04-06-2020, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Deplace View Post
Odd video.
He said the kick is in the low bass, where his RTA shows the highest amplitude (later, he actually specifies, "20-30Hz"). I don't see how he arrived at his conclusion.
Imagine you're looking at an RTA of a person talking, while a ULF system is playing 20-30Hz noise. So, say the RTA shows the 20-30Hz is clearly 20dB above everything else, would you then assume the person's voice resides within that 20-30Hz range?
He grossly narrowed the spectral content of a kick drum, by saying it's 50Hz. He also said that nothing will be coming from the mains. Well, unless he's crossing his subs to his tweeters, that bit is flat-out wrong. Plenty will be coming from the mains.




Thanks for that.
The HTG fellow, in the video, said that people who implement midbass modules are doing it wrong. Granted, it adds pitfalls and is more work, but that doesn't mean he had to throw eveyone under the bus.
I took exception to the way he stated it so matter of factly. People who don't know any better will believe him. Even worse, if the believers are looking for massive kick, that video is likely to send them down the wrong path to 20-30Hz.




Small cabin, close proximity. You get more, for less, in your truck.
Speaking of a small cabin, did someone say "chest slam"?

Im not sure exactly what you mean but the answers are in there. Maybe watch it a second time to get a better understanding. If it doesn't work for you then there are other things to try.

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post #63 of 66 Old 04-06-2020, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Deplace View Post
Odd video.
He said the kick is in the low bass, where his RTA shows the highest amplitude (later, he actually specifies, "20-30Hz"). I don't see how he arrived at his conclusion.
Imagine you're looking at an RTA of a person talking, while a ULF system is playing 20-30Hz noise. So, say the RTA shows the 20-30Hz is clearly 20dB above everything else, would you then assume the person's voice resides within that 20-30Hz range?
He grossly narrowed the spectral content of a kick drum, by saying it's 50Hz. He also said that nothing will be coming from the mains. Well, unless he's crossing his subs to his tweeters, that bit is flat-out wrong. Plenty will be coming from the mains.

Thanks for that.
The HTG fellow, in the video, said that people who implement midbass modules are doing it wrong. Granted, it adds pitfalls and is more work, but that doesn't mean he had to throw eveyone under the bus.
I took exception to the way he stated it so matter of factly. People who don't know any better will believe him. Even worse, if the believers are looking for massive kick, that video is likely to send them down the wrong path to 20-30Hz.

Small cabin, close proximity. You get more, for less, in your truck.
Speaking of a small cabin, did someone say "chest slam"?

Hi,

I think that some of his videos can be helpful, and his intentions are good. But, as I mentioned in post #5 , his methodology in this instance just didn't make sense. He didn't attempt to measure the frequencies where he was feeling the most chest punch, which is a sympathetic resonance of the air-filled chest cavity caused by sudden percussive sounds at the right frequencies.

Instead, he simply took passages where he and others reported feeling chest punch sensations, and noted the frequencies where the SPL was highest. And, that really didn't prove what he thought it did. Not every frequency, regardless of SPL, causes those sensations of sympathetic resonance. Fortunately, there have been a number of blind studies of chest punch, which have concluded that most people feel the sensation between about 50Hz and 100Hz.

As with all human attributes and sensations, there are outliers to that average frequency range, but it is certainly a good starting point for most of us to use. And, we can determine our own peak frequencies by conducting our own chest punch tests if we are really curious. But, we wouldn't be measuring which frequencies exhibit max SPL. We would be monitoring our own physical sensations, at a variety of different frequencies, to see where we feel the most chest impact. Even without blind testing, that experiment should be indicative of a general range, for a particular individual.

It was also clear that he hadn't reached the right conclusion about the use of mid-bass modules, with port tunes in the 40-60Hz range. There is way too much empirical evidence that they can add to the sensation of chest punch. Again, he seems like a generally knowledgeable and sincere person, so I don't want to be too critical. But, he was simply on the wrong track with that particular video.

Regards,
Mike

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post #64 of 66 Old 04-13-2020, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Deplace View Post
Odd video.
He said the kick is in the low bass, where his RTA shows the highest amplitude (later, he actually specifies, "20-30Hz"). I don't see how he arrived at his conclusion.
Imagine you're looking at an RTA of a person talking, while a ULF system is playing 20-30Hz noise. So, say the RTA shows the 20-30Hz is clearly 20dB above everything else, would you then assume the person's voice resides within that 20-30Hz range?

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post #65 of 66 Old 04-13-2020, 01:49 PM
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Hey guys. The video is just showing where the most demanding frequencies are when those scenes we all know to have concussive impact are happening in the frequency domain. That way if you know those scenes have far more output demands in say 20 to 60 hz and you want that chest kick that's a good place to start. Make sure you have plenty of headroom there and get the subs placed and aligned and get that house curve right. Sure higher frequencies and even lower ones as well add to the quality and depth of he bass. It's not saying in anyway thats all that is important or all the bass and it's overtones are only in those areas we have peaks. It's just showing there is far more demand in those areas and that's where all the tactile energy is coming from. When a sections of low frequencies are 20 db higher that is where your tactility in the room is coming from. AS for saying chest slam is 20 to 30 hz or anything like that I think that's taken out of context as I simply measured and noted peaks. Some of those scenes had high SPL demands even over 60 hz.

I've helped countless people aligns subs that thought they need more subs or MBMs because they lacked chest slam. Well as long as they had decent subs all the needed was alignment and a house curve. I've had some that were simply running flat and had no life to the bass and no slam. A house curve is all they needed.


It's also not meant to be anti-midbass module. It's meant to show where the most demands are at and where to look for issues. So many are told you need mid bass modules but how often are they told make sure the subs are placed and aligned properly and adjust the house curve and do not run flat. There's a lot of misconceptions around "mid bass" and "chest kick". Professionally designed rooms do not use MBM module because they have plenty of headroom in the subs and mains and they're properly setup and aligned. You want your system to be capable of producing any frequency without audible distortion and pressurizing the room without strain.

As for the comment that my video was "odd". I started the channel because many asked for it especially the REW video I've been teaching it one on one for a few years. I'm not natural behind a camera at all and I do know the first ones especially are bad but the information is solid so I do it anyway. I do room plans and I really don't know of anyone else offering to teach the things that not even many so called trained pro know. I've helped a ton of them too.
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Last edited by cdy2179; 04-13-2020 at 02:04 PM.
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post #66 of 66 Old 04-13-2020, 05:57 PM
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I've watched most of @cdy2179 videos and I can't say that I disagree with any of them
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