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-   -   Where is the chest slam? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/3133354-where-chest-slam.html)

Russ_130 04-02-2020 08:35 AM

Where is the chest slam?
 
So after a lot to research and chats with svs I decided to go with the pb-3000. The only thing is I’m not getting any chest slam like I was expecting. There are in a 12 by 12 room with 8 foot ceilings closed off by a door. It’s running off a denon avr x3600. What could I do to get that slam. I even put my volume way louder to see if I get any slam but I didn’t. Any suggestions? Do they need to bake in?

dwander 04-02-2020 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_130 (Post 59441020)
So after a lot to research and chats with svs I decided to go with the pb-3000. The only thing is I’m not getting any chest slam like I was expecting. There are in a 12 by 12 room with 8 foot ceilings closed off by a door. It’s running off a denon avr x3600. What could I do to get that slam. I even put my volume way louder to see if I get any slam but I didn’t. Any suggestions? Do they need to bake in?


I would also watch his videos on proper setup, and gain matching to yield the best results in output and frequency response.

qguy 04-02-2020 08:48 AM

I have the older/smaller PB12-NSD and it does provide chest slam, you may want to share positioning and the configuration of the sub. Crossover, gain, etc.

johnson636 04-02-2020 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_130 (Post 59441020)
So after a lot to research and chats with svs I decided to go with the pb-3000. The only thing is I’m not getting any chest slam like I was expecting. There are in a 12 by 12 room with 8 foot ceilings closed off by a door. It’s running off a denon avr x3600. What could I do to get that slam. I even put my volume way louder to see if I get any slam but I didn’t. Any suggestions? Do they need to bake in?

Do you have a umik-1 and rew? Your mlp may be in a null in the midbass region. Room measurements would be able to identify what's going on in your room.

mthomas47 04-02-2020 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_130 (Post 59441020)
So after a lot to research and chats with svs I decided to go with the pb-3000. The only thing is I’m not getting any chest slam like I was expecting. There are in a 12 by 12 room with 8 foot ceilings closed off by a door. It’s running off a denon avr x3600. What could I do to get that slam. I even put my volume way louder to see if I get any slam but I didn’t. Any suggestions? Do they need to bake in?


Hi Russ,

The whole issue of how to feel more chest slam, or chest punch as I tend to call it, is a little complicated. The video that was recommended has some helpful hints, regarding making sure that you are not dealing with room issues, but it is also not entirely correct. The only thing I will say about that is that determining the frequencies where movie scenes have the highest volume levels, at the same time that people are experiencing chest punch, is not the same thing as determining the specific frequencies where most people are actually feeling that sensation.

There have been a number of studies done to determine where most people feel chest punch, including one conducted by Audioholics, and they have all placed the chest punch phenomenon in the mid-bass range of roughly 50-100Hz. That will obviously vary among individuals, and not all individuals will feel chest punch to the same extent, at any frequency. Human variability exists with this, as it does with everything else.

One blind study that has had a lot of influence, found that the majority of participants experienced the chest punch sensation most strongly at an average frequency of 63Hz. Several subwoofer makers, including SVS, provide a PEQ boost at that specific frequency. You can add a +3dB boost at 63Hz, simply by using the Music mode rather than the Movie mode in your PB3000. That PEQ boost of +3dB, centered on 63Hz, is the only difference between the two modes.

If I were you, I would play some test tones through your AVR to determine whether some frequencies are louder than others. That will be dependent on your subwoofer placement, and how your sub is interacting with room modes. You can download a test tone track from Spotify, or from YouTube, to test the volume levels of various frequencies.

If you hear (or measure with an SPL meter) a drop-off in volume somewhere in the 50-100Hz range, that might be a red flag that your subwoofer is not located in a good spot. In that case, doing a sub crawl will help you to find a better location for your sub. Be creative! Sometimes, just moving your sub by a few feet can be helpful.

As noted earlier, it is possible that you simply are not very susceptible to chest slam. But, if you have felt it at an outdoor rock concert, then you should be able to feel it in your room. It is definitely volume-related for most people, but our susceptibility to that sensation varies, and so do the volumes necessary to create the chest slam sensation.

As you are experimenting with subwoofer placement, Music mode, and volume levels, try playing a gunfight scene from one of the John Wick movies, and see whether you can feel anything. Good luck with this! :)

Regards,
Mike


PS: The PB3000 is actually quite strong in the mid-bass frequencies, so if the sub is well-positioned, you should be fine for mid-bass SPL.

SVS 3000 Series Subwoofer Measurements and Conclusion | Audioholics

GatoGoat 04-02-2020 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_130 (Post 59441020)
So after a lot to research and chats with svs I decided to go with the pb-3000. The only thing is I’m not getting any chest slam like I was expecting. There are in a 12 by 12 room with 8 foot ceilings closed off by a door. It’s running off a denon avr x3600. What could I do to get that slam. I even put my volume way louder to see if I get any slam but I didn’t. Any suggestions? Do they need to bake in?

Sorry man , SVS performance per $$$ isnt quite as high as some others...They do have a cool app though! Even if you are in a null and find the perfect position for the sub , you still may be a little underwhelmed..

wookiegr 04-02-2020 09:34 AM

I understand chest slams comes from the 30-40hz range which is better produced by sealed subs is such a compact space. is that 12x12 a re-purposed bedroom or something? Are there windows? Sometimes the pressure levels needed are lost through weak points in the room.

qguy 04-02-2020 09:43 AM

I have sealed 15 and ported 12 in a 1300 cubic feet room, the ported 12 provides better chest slam than the sealed 15.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wookiegr (Post 59441308)
I understand chest slams comes from the 30-40hz range which is better produced by sealed subs is such a compact space. is that 12x12 a re-purposed bedroom or something? Are there windows? Sometimes the pressure levels needed are lost through weak points in the room.


They_call_me_Roto 04-02-2020 09:49 AM

To the original question: Where is the chest slam?


Answer: my living room.

wookiegr 04-02-2020 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qguy (Post 59441350)
I have sealed 15 and ported 12 in a 1300 cubic feet room, the ported 12 provides better chest slam than the sealed 15.

In my old theater I had two sonotube subs with 15" Adire Audio tempests ported and tuned to 14hz that gave me all the slam I needed in a 1650cf space. When one of them died it was like losing a family member and my entire system suffered for it. To this day I am still not over it and I already bought a new house making sure that never happens again. You need some serious power and output.

basshead81 04-02-2020 10:02 AM

Measure your frequency response and make sure the sub(s) are in phase with the speakers. Often times room correction does not get the time alignment correct and you end up with a big dip in the cross over region which makes the low bass sound fat and the mid bass punch non existent. If this is ends up being the issue then try the sub distance tweak. If that still doesn't help then try moving the sub in different locations.

Sn1per666 04-02-2020 10:02 AM

My room is also 12x12x8 and I have to place my sub directly behind my chair to get any chest slam. That makes the bass localized though and it doesn't pressurize the room as well so it's not worth it to me. Placement is king. Our rooms are square so it's even more important.

basshead81 04-02-2020 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sn1per666 (Post 59441430)
My room is also 12x12x8 and I have to place my sub directly behind my chair to get any chest slam. That makes the bass localized though and it doesn't pressurize the room as well so it's not worth it to me. Placement is king. Our rooms are square so it's even more important.

You need two subs so you can keep 1 behind the chair and the other where it is now to help blend the bass so it doesn't sound localized. Or keep your current sub where it is and add a MBM.

imureh 04-02-2020 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_130 (Post 59441020)
So after a lot to research and chats with svs I decided to go with the pb-3000. The only thing is I’m not getting any chest slam like I was expecting. There are in a 12 by 12 room with 8 foot ceilings closed off by a door. It’s running off a denon avr x3600. What could I do to get that slam. I even put my volume way louder to see if I get any slam but I didn’t. Any suggestions? Do they need to bake in?

You can run your sub nearfield and add another later on, also the mains play a big role in chest slam. Speakers like the JTR 212HTs would provide great chest slam in addition to what the sub can do.

qguy 04-02-2020 10:36 AM

You can beat this with very near field positioning, my subs are no more than 2 feet away from me :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wookiegr (Post 59441418)
You need some serious power and output.


johnson636 04-02-2020 12:14 PM

I believe a umik-1 and rew will remove all the guessing:)

Russ_130 04-02-2020 12:16 PM

I have 2 pb-3000. Both of them are about 7 feet in front of me. I have room eq wizzed. I will post the response I get later today

avtvhdbass 04-02-2020 12:25 PM

@Russ_130

Not sure if you have visited the threads below:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-response.html
" Based on the above, it appears that this mid-bass "chest slam" or "shortness of breath" effect is in the 50-100hz range."

Here is the demo disk thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post49126305

johnson636 04-02-2020 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_130 (Post 59442038)
I have 2 pb-3000. Both of them are about 7 feet in front of me. I have room eq wizzed. I will post the response I get later today

Great! That will help tremendously:)

Russ_130 04-02-2020 12:28 PM

It’s crossed over at 80 hertz

Russ_130 04-02-2020 12:29 PM

They are in my bedroom so I don’t really have a option to move them

Kini62 04-02-2020 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatoGoat (Post 59441272)
Sorry man , SVS performance per $$$ isnt quite as high as some others...They do have a cool app though! Even if you are in a null and find the perfect position for the sub , you still may be a little underwhelmed..

Any reason to post this other than to sort of troll for "your" subwoofer brand :confused:

The PB3000 has as much output above 30hz as the HSU VTF3.5 and therefore probably about as much as "that other brand that never gets tested". Sure it costs a lot more than the HSU but then again so do nearly all other ID subs of the same performance.

Ed Mullen 04-02-2020 03:10 PM

You are getting good advice here -

A 12x12 room will be notorious for a mid-bass null at the MLP - so use REW and a UMIK-1 to determine the best location and placement configuration for the subs.

Once any potential nulls have been eliminated/minimized - then run Audyssey in the Denon 3600 and report back with speaker size/crossover and subwoofer mode, etc.

We can advise from there.....

darthray 04-02-2020 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mthomas47 (Post 59441224)
Hi Russ,

The whole issue of how to feel more chest slam, or chest punch as I tend to call it, is a little complicated. The video that was recommended has some helpful hints, regarding making sure that you are not dealing with room issues, but it is also not entirely correct. The only thing I will say about that is that determining the frequencies where movie scenes have the highest volume levels, at the same time that people are experiencing chest punch, is not the same thing as determining the specific frequencies where most people are actually feeling that sensation.

There have been a number of studies done to determine where most people feel chest punch, including one conducted by Audioholics, and they have all placed the chest punch phenomenon in the mid-bass range of roughly 50-100Hz. That will obviously vary among individuals, and not all individuals will feel chest punch to the same extent, at any frequency. Human variability exists with this, as it does with everything else.

One blind study that has had a lot of influence, found that the majority of participants experienced the chest punch sensation most strongly at an average frequency of 63Hz. Several subwoofer makers, including SVS, provide a PEQ boost at that specific frequency. You can add a +3dB boost at 63Hz, simply by using the Music mode rather than the Movie mode in your PB3000. That PEQ boost of +3dB, centered on 63Hz, is the only difference between the two modes.

If I were you, I would play some test tones through your AVR to determine whether some frequencies are louder than others. That will be dependent on your subwoofer placement, and how your sub is interacting with room modes. You can download a test tone track from Spotify, or from YouTube, to test the volume levels of various frequencies.

If you hear (or measure with an SPL meter) a drop-off in volume somewhere in the 50-100Hz range, that might be a red flag that your subwoofer is not located in a good spot. In that case, doing a sub crawl will help you to find a better location for your sub. Be creative! Sometimes, just moving your sub by a few feet can be helpful.

As noted earlier, it is possible that you simply are not very susceptible to chest slam. But, if you have felt it at an outdoor rock concert, then you should be able to feel it in your room. It is definitely volume-related for most people, but our susceptibility to that sensation varies, and so do the volumes necessary to create the chest slam sensation.

As you are experimenting with subwoofer placement, Music mode, and volume levels, try playing a gunfight scene from one of the John Wick movies, and see whether you can feel anything. Good luck with this! :)

Regards,
Mike


PS: The PB3000 is actually quite strong in the mid-bass frequencies, so if the sub is well-positioned, you should be fine for mid-bass SPL.

SVS 3000 Series Subwoofer Measurements and Conclusion | Audioholics

As usual, many great points and only underline some (in bold).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_130 (Post 59441020)
So after a lot to research and chats with svs I decided to go with the pb-3000. The only thing is I’m not getting any chest slam like I was expecting. There are in a 12 by 12 room with 8 foot ceilings closed off by a door. It’s running off a denon avr x3600. What could I do to get that slam. I even put my volume way louder to see if I get any slam but I didn’t. Any suggestions? Do they need to bake in?

Hi Russ,

You had many great advise, the quote above from Mike. Explain about the single PEQ option at 63Hz on your PB3000. I use this option on my Rythmik set at 60Hz with a +3dB gain, and work very good for the extra slam in my room. That said, you do need to play your MV fairly high required to achieve the chest slam.

Also, if your subs location create some null around this frequency or the ones near-it. No amount of boosting, will solve your problem. Unless you find better location for the subs. As mention by other Members. Since it is the reason, you see often mention that location, location is everything.

As a side note, on the use of the PEQ option. When applying a boost for a certain frequency, it will also boost the frequencies next to it. The reason having +3dB at 60 or 63Hz, work so well. Since it will also boost to some extend, the 50-100Hz region (depending of how wide, is the bandwidth setting).

Also, if you can post some pictures of your bedroom set-up. It might help, to have some fresh set of eyes. For potential new locations, since in a previous post you mention that they cannot be moved.


Darth

GatoGoat 04-02-2020 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kini62 (Post 59442640)
Any reason to post this other than to sort of troll for "your" subwoofer brand :confused:

The PB3000 has as much output above 30hz as the HSU VTF3.5 and therefore probably about as much as "that other brand that never gets tested". Sure it costs a lot more than the HSU but then again so do nearly all other ID subs of the same performance.

Never said a thing about my alleged brand ;) ..... Only thing I said is that once he gets things squared away he still might be a little underwhelmed , or he may be happy....Or he might want to send it back within his trial period and try out a pair of HSU for around the same price which would give off a lot smoother response and possibly give him the chest slam he is looking for...

m0j0 04-02-2020 04:37 PM

If you would consider a diy approach, you might want to search BOSS Back in the hideaway theater or TR threads.

Russ_130 04-02-2020 06:19 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Alright guys! Here is the measurement. There is a huge null at at 58 hertz. How can I fix this ?

nodoubt 04-02-2020 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatoGoat (Post 59441272)
Sorry man , SVS performance per $$$ isnt quite as high as some others...They do have a cool app though! Even if you are in a null and find the perfect position for the sub , you still may be a little underwhelmed..

lol ! here we go again........
let me guess, psa? jtr? hsu?:rolleyes:

Russ_130 04-02-2020 06:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Big shout out to subwoofer 101 and his distance hack! Really change it!

peniku8 04-02-2020 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ_130 (Post 59443448)
Alright guys! Here is the measurement. There is a huge null at at 58 hertz. How can I fix this ?


Re-locating the subwoofer or your MLP. Search for "sub crawl" and you might find a new suitable location. If you can't find a good location you will either have to live with it or add more subs to your room, since the more subs you have, the more your bass response and dispersion evens out.
You could also try crossing to your sub at 60Hz and playing with the delays a bit, that might or might not work. If you have decently capable mains that is.
I also don't know how well this SVS handles the 'slam' frequencies from 60-100Hz. I know that my Klipsch sub doesn't do that well. My dual 21" SKHorn does.


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