PB12-NSD (corner) with Monolith Ported 15 (midwall) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 04-30-2020, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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PB12-NSD (corner) with Monolith Ported 15 (midwall)

Currently I have two PB12-NSD with one near a corner and one mid-wall about on 26 foot wall (3700 cubic feet room). With a minidsp-HD I'm able to get smooth response with 3db down at 21 Hz and ruler flat starting at 23 Hz. These two subs are enough output for the room, but now that I'm doing BEQ (AVSforum group) and doing things like boosting bass by 12 db at 25hz on Edge of Tomorrow I'm thinking that I want more subsonic bass below 20 Hz and a bit more output would not hurt.

I'd keep the corner placed PB12-NSD and put the Monolith midwall. Here are Audioholics numbers on two PB12's and one Mono 15 in 2 port mode:


The corner PB12 has gobs of output in the mid-twenties so the leanness of the Monolith 2 port mode here is great and 2 port gets you the best response for 20 Hz and below. The numbers above are for two PB12, but I figure with the corner advantage that those are a fair proxy for the single corner placed PB12.

My hope is to use the minidsp HD to heavily contour the Monoprice 15 to have it do the heavly lifting for 12-20 hz while taming it elsewhere so it can do that heavy lifting.

Any hopes for such a radical scheme? Another option is to just get the 12 inch monoprice for now and then if not enough put the monoprice 12 in corner and get the 15. I really like those sub 20hz specs on the 15 that much more and that its very tempting. The 15 at a minor discount in monoprice ebay story.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #2 of 30 Old 04-30-2020, 01:44 PM
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if you like the monolith 15, why not just get two of those?
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post #3 of 30 Old 04-30-2020, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
if you like the monolith 15, why not just get two of those?
Kind of a budget buster for me and two PB12's have enough output for BEQ (bass equalization) you just don't get any subsonic glory in my room with the PB12 (a friend gets to 16 hz with just one.). I could also trade in for two Pb2000 pro, but I figure that only gets me a couple hz lower, bags of output. Two Monolith 12's fine two, but the 15 digs down deeper. The Monolith 15 would just give me some street cred with the BEQ crowd.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #4 of 30 Old 05-01-2020, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are the two subwoofers individually measured with no crossover:

The red line is the one in the corner. The blue is in the midwall position where I want to upgrade to the Monolith 15.

Using the Audioholic specs the Monolith 15 has on average 10.6 db more output from 30-125 hertz. And we see from the above graph that the corner placement gives about 10 db more output over most of the bass range hence my hope to pair these disparate subwoofers in the same room.

What I'm going to next is to try to simulate how the Monolith 15 will work the corner boosted PB12. I am going to turn up the current midwall PB12 by 10.5 db and see if I can get them to blend well. This will work well down to about 20 hz where the gap between the two subwoofer models is only 9.9 db by the audioholic specs, but by 16 and 12 Hz well I can add 4.6 db at 16 hz to the final graph perhaps. No spec for pb12-nsd at 12.5 hertz, but on its own in theory the combo probably good for 99 db maximum output out standing in a field. My hope is that at that low frequency the Monolith will get 10 db of boost, but REW room simulation won't go that low so I'm not sure. With that boost, the combo would get close 110 db at 12.5 hz and I'll have to see if I can find a tool that might forecast the room boost. Right now from 23 hertz and up my dual PB12 setup gets 112 db maximum continuous output at the listening position, so my hope is to some how massage the two and take my 3 db down point to 16 hertz or maybe even 12.5 if the room has huge boost down that low.

May the force be with me and I'll update with some more graphics today as I progress with the test.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #5 of 30 Old 05-01-2020, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Well if I didn't have a minidsp and bought this sub this is what I show would be the result without massaging phase or doing anything:


We have the simulated new sub (the PB12 boosted 10.6 db) midwall as that red line with those peaks at 50 and 95 hertz standing above all. The corner sub is the cobalt blue and is same measurement from the post above. The fatter aquamarine line is the two PB12's averaged. And finally the thick black line is the simulated Monolith summed with the corner PB12.

Right away we see the aquamarine line is much smoother than the the Monolith/SVS in room combo which makes a strong, strong case for the typical wisdom to have identical model subwoofers or at least ones with the same output. We also see that from 20 to 30 Hz we net about 3 db more output combined and if one imagines smoothing the response to average 92 db well maybe a three db down point of 20 Hz. So again without minidsp this upgrade is getting a thumbs down because its not getting me more output than just going to PB2000 Pro (worth 3-4 db) and in theory dual PB2000 Pros would get my 3db down point 2 hz lower.

Might as well check the subsonic benefit at this point too so at 16 hz the combined output of the PB12s stands at 74 db versus lets say 89 db for the hoped smoothed line, so -15 db. The Monolith/PB12 combo is 82.6 versus the 92 db flat response and of course we must add 7.1 db by the specs as the real Monolith will average in that much higher so we have 89.7 db versus the baseline of 92 so well it does look like 16Hz 3 db down possible.

Now these averages aren't the actual response of the two subs combined and assume no phase issues, so up next for the first time I shall attempt to massage the phase on my subs to get them to play better than before and hopefully achieve a smoother response with nearly the same output.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #6 of 30 Old 05-01-2020, 12:36 PM
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Looking at those plots I think one monolith 15" in your corner will be as good or better than your current duals. Sell what you got now, get the 1 monolith 15 and then get a 2nd later when you got the funds.

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post #7 of 30 Old 05-01-2020, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Before I mess with phase lets check the averaging specs for these subwoofers:

The theoretical of two PB12s is just the single PB12 +6. We have averages from 30-125 hz to get a feel for overall output level. And the variance of these over the same frequency range. The Average +6 is the average of the monolith and the single pb12 specs +6. The average +6 seems right in my mind, but that's not from the standard subwoofer playback. Certainly if you average two identical subwoofers it holds.

So from the above we see by the specs we are expecting the response to be -13 db for the combo at 16 hertz so its very nice that we have hopes of -3 db with the room boosting the Monolith 15 2 port mode as discussed in the post above. At 20 hz we expected -6.9 db down so the hoped for -3 db after smoothing is good. At 25 hz we show flat whereas the average responses show -2.8 db so another win.

Despite the rather raucous combined output this does look promising and boosting a bit at 20 hz and 16 of the Monolith is allowed since it still has good output at those frequencies, so perhaps a bit lower is possible. At 12.5 hz the PB12 in room average to 61.2 db. The measured mock combo stands at 69 db so nearly 8 db better. We don't have a 12.5 hz spec for the PB12 (measured too low versus ambient noise) so me just use a single Monolith 15's number which should be 18 db down and just a loss of 5 db from the 16 hz number. So -8 db down at 12.5 hz with some room for minidsp boosting and its possible the room could be helping that a touch more.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #8 of 30 Old 05-01-2020, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Looking at those plots I think one monolith 15" in your corner will be as good or better than your current duals. Sell what you got now, get the 1 monolith 15 and then get a 2nd later when you got the funds.
Yeah if I can simulate smoothing this and it doesn't look promising then maybe that wins as the Monolith in the corner will get boosted six ways to Sunday.

I continue with my simulations as the midwall position may indeed get some selective boosting of just the subsonic frequencies. I value extension much more at this point than output since I'm nearly there and the Monolith 15 will put me over the line easily. The Monolith in the corner might be harder to tame with all that boost in the 20-30 Hz range and get the same extension, but I'll have to take a harder look at those prospects.

In any event if my fantasy combo looks good I buy one Monoprice now and then sell one PB12. Then down the line another subwoofer can replace the remaining PB12.

Subwoofers really behave well to theory so I think this simulation may be close enough to reality that I'll go through a thorough setup and just save the setting and when the Monolith arrives just drop it in with very little need of adjustment. I'm just doing work now I'd have to do later so this continues.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #9 of 30 Old 05-01-2020, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Well hopefully this images hosts for a while as I just got address from gmail I sent:

Dropbox is down right now so using this unreliable method of hosting.

Here is the 10.6 db boosted PB12 blended with the corner placed one and looks like 16 hz -3 db possible once you add the 7.1 db adjustment for the specs of PB12/Monolith 15 combo.

I'll now try to dig up measurement for the corner sub flattened and see if a single Monolith gets more extension. By the specs the PB12 only adds about 1.2 db of output to the Monolith, but that fails to take in the advantage of the corner which is worth probably 8-10 db, so probably gains 5 db at least over Monolith in middle wall. Monolith alone in corner would have 8-10 db advantage so 3-5 db more than this combo alone. But I don't need output and want extension so I'll dig up that measurement ... right now:

Oh daddy my sub combo has 13 db more output at 16 hz over the single Monolith simulated, but the single Monolith gets a bigger adjust than 7.1 db....... its gets 14.2 db, but that's still net about 6 db short of the combo so yes the combo gives more extension. I'll take it because that extension and about 5 db more output more than enough. 10 db more output is not what I want. 3 hz more extension and maybe more in my room will do. Hoping to net drop my 3 db down point from 21 to 14 Hertz.
Edit: and got 13 Hz with PB4000 and might have gotten 11 Hz with Mono 15 abliet perhaps a touch lean sounding at 20 Hz vs the PB4000.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

Last edited by meles; 05-23-2020 at 05:51 PM.
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post #10 of 30 Old 05-02-2020, 01:50 PM
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From someone who started out with a PB12 NSD and moved up from there, i recommend you get rid of both those subs and just save yourself time and money and go for dual Monolith 15's.

If you can only afford 1 now start there, but dont bother with mixing and matching. I have 2 different subs, diff driver size, diff port tune, different everything, its a pain.

2 Monolith 15's and a BOSS would be my end game (for my budget) if i could do it all over again. I dont think you can get better bass for under $3k than that.
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post #11 of 30 Old 05-02-2020, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
From someone who started out with a PB12 NSD and moved up from there, i recommend you get rid of both those subs and just save yourself time and money and go for dual Monolith 15's.

If you can only afford 1 now start there, but dont bother with mixing and matching. I have 2 different subs, diff driver size, diff port tune, different everything, its a pain.

2 Monolith 15's and a BOSS would be my end game (for my budget) if i could do it all over again. I dont think you can get better bass for under $3k than that.
That sounds really nice. Where do we draw the buttkicker line? If we are to 20 Hz flat then is it acceptable to do tactile stuff like crowley, buttkicker, boss, and more? Or do we need to get much lower. I'm not sure I can handle something insane like 5hz flat response with some science experiment subwoofer setup. Even though the ear can't hear this will it take more of a toll?

I've got an ottoman so will boss, etc just under chairs feel off with a vibrating Ottoman?


Well in modelling that in my room I also reworked my two PB12-NSDs with their new Edge of Tommorrow limiter light balance and the AVrant two subwoofer method. So now I have 3db down point at 19 hz instead of 21 hz. I just hand tuned my visual minidsp settings and well its just absolutely singing with all sorts of cork sniffing nicities (first rate Atmos piano concerto) and don't think it was just two more Hz of extension.

So my 167 pound hippo hero (Monolith) is on hold because..:
1. New response even smoother and I'm not sure I can tame the hippo and PB12 to be quite as good.
2. Now dual PB2000 pro will get me down to 17 hz in my room plus 3-4 db more output for limiter light free performance. More of a guaranteed win, but also 17 hz is not the hoped for 14 hz with nice slow rolloff for more tactiles.
3. Now that I'm just a hertz away from ruler flat to 20hz maybe its buttkicker time.
4. I need more time punishing my ears with BEQ to make the final decision on what I need as more ear bleeding scare me from even longer pressure waves.

Still in the throws of subwoofer nervosa. I just need to take my cork sniffing time and experience more of the BEQ for a while before pulling the trigger. Though I would like a hippopatamus by Christmas.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #12 of 30 Old 05-22-2020, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
From someone who started out with a PB12 NSD and moved up from there, i recommend you get rid of both those subs and just save yourself time and money and go for dual Monolith 15's.

If you can only afford 1 now start there, but dont bother with mixing and matching. I have 2 different subs, diff driver size, diff port tune, different everything, its a pain.

2 Monolith 15's and a BOSS would be my end game (for my budget) if i could do it all over again. I dont think you can get better bass for under $3k than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Looking at those plots I think one monolith 15" in your corner will be as good or better than your current duals. Sell what you got now, get the 1 monolith 15 and then get a 2nd later when you got the funds.
Well its worse. The Monolith 15 got rejected at the door for shipping damage and now I have SVS PB4000.

Just trust SVS so much and a few of the test specs I liked:

I had no time to calculate as one must leap on the SVS Memorial Day week deal ($1500 less 5% returning customer discount for the gloss model), but the PB4000s stronger output at 16 Hz was a real attraction (the worse 12.5 hz number didn't stick out like it should) and 1 db less output was not a concern in my room.

I'm doing a Hover Boss in the next 30 days likely a deluxe one with a ton of drivers, so I suspect that will get the 12.5 Hz job done just fine.

I literallly just hooked it PB4000 and have applied the settings (adjusted gain levels for the reality) that I modelled in MiniDSP. Impressions/Musings:
1. Latency - I'm flying blind here because I doubt the two subwoofers are the same.
2. I'm on a concrete slab and the pants are flapping a bit differently, but this has not been tranformational.

I'll have to measure and tune tomorrow. The sound is about what I expected from the trial run. Its reasonably balanced, but I'll have try a bit harder now that the subwoofer in question is actually in my room.

I'm always one to hear what I lost first before I pick up what I've gained. My last dual pb 12 setup had a little bass bulge at 22 Hz that gave a little choclately bass flavoror maybe it was getting those extra 2 Hz of extenstion down to 19 Hz . The new combo seems lean to the ear right around this area so will interesting to see how it measure right out of the gate with these initial modelled setting and then of course to see if I can get the desired extension with a smooth response.

Keeping score right now in my room:
Two PB12NSD with minidsp HD >>>>>>>>>> PB4000 without minidsp HD (if you really care about sound you simply have to have minidsp and for one listening spot I'd rate that over dual subs). Granted with SVS app and REW (plus mic) you could get the PB4000 much closer to the Minidsp HD. (And in reality they could be the same if you end up only needing the range of settings that the SVS app completely covers.

Two PB12NSDs really setup well with minidsp HD >> PB4000 with Corner PB12NSD setup blind with minidsp HD and untuned (and maybe one of those two sub clashing deals is happening, but I doubt it here).

I'm beginning to suspect that what look like small changes in response in the low 20 Hz range and maybe a bit lower are much more audible then a similar small change at lets say 60 Hz.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

Last edited by meles; 05-22-2020 at 10:14 PM.
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post #13 of 30 Old 05-23-2020, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Well the PB4000 two port with the Corner PB12-NSD is working.

The PB12 is helping out nicely from about 20 to 50 Hz, and the PB4000 does most of the rest of the response. The 3 db down point is 13 Hz so that is something over the previous 19 Hz (I've not evaluated if it was worth the price of admission.) The Monolith 15 would have worked as making it flat to the 14-16 Hz range was no problem, but at 20 Hz the dip probably would have been a db worse for a less smooth response and a little bit wimpier sound in the lowest frequencies. (It did take luck to get 20 Hz up with minidsp as parametric EQ was applied at 16, 18, 20, 23, & 25 hz between the two subs to tame the combination). On the other hand that Monolith 15 would have gone done even lower than the PB4000 and I'd liked to have seen what it would have done. It certainly looks like it would have made it to 12 Hz and hard to predict beyond that, but I'd guess maybe even -3db of 11 Hz in room. I'm very happy with the performance of the PB4000 and glad I went with it given the utterly incredible support they have. Frankly Monoprice needs to work on their game and you're basically treated like someone buying a $6 HDMI cable. I love their stuff, but I feel so much safer in SVS hands with such a heavy device with an extended warranty where you might have to ship the item back (SVS has user replaceable drivers and will let you replace modules in the field which saves money and downtime). That being said right now on sale at 2/3rds the price of the PB4000 ($1200 vs $1900) well the Monolith 15's price makes up for a lot of potential grief.

As others predicted in this thread it was a lot of work to tame this combination and frankly when I go into hand tune by ear the q's and db levels of everything their are quite a few settings I won't do because frankly the response above was a real house of cards. Another pain with two different subwoofers was the differing latency. Your probably fine with the newest generation of SVS together (1000 too old), but the PB12-NSD SVS estimated to have 3 ms Latency and the newer PB4000 had 5 ms. Also on the gain settings I called SVS and some rules of thumb:
1. PB12-NSD at noon is about -10 db, just past 1 where I am is about -8.5db
2. PB4000 is digital db setting so very different from the knob

I'm eager to hear the combo of the $2000 sub with the $780 one. (well $1425 and $500 for me). I'll report back if the extra 6 Hz of extension in my room was worth it.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

Last edited by meles; 05-23-2020 at 05:45 PM.
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post #14 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 06:18 AM
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What was the FR after you EQ'd in REW but before you boosted in minidsp?

Sucks to hear about the Monolith shipping damage!

In the 12.5hz range on your comparison numbers between the m15 and 4000, it would take 1.5 - 3 PB4000's to do what the m15 does by itself, and the m15 is hundreds cheaper.

I'm curious what a compression graph would show of your sub's (combined) current setup.

I think I've heard that below 15hz, for that bass to be impactful it has to be around 105db or better.
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post #15 of 30 Old 05-26-2020, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
What was the FR after you EQ'd in REW but before you boosted in minidsp?

Sucks to hear about the Monolith shipping damage!

In the 12.5hz range on your comparison numbers between the m15 and 4000, it would take 1.5 - 3 PB4000's to do what the m15 does by itself, and the m15 is hundreds cheaper.

I'm curious what a compression graph would show of your sub's (combined) current setup.

I think I've heard that below 15hz, for that bass to be impactful it has to be around 105db or better.
I've had a bit of a roller coaster taming the PB4000 and I don't want to go in it, but lets just say the house of cards fell down.

Because of BEQ I feel a need to protect the subs and I have 2nd order rolloff so 3 db down at 10 Hz with minor impact at 15 hz. Implementing a higher order rolloff instigatated a bit of a roller coaster in the response when I was first listening and I did not realize it. Might have had a 4 db plus bulge around 15 Hz and then ups and downs propogating up the response (galloping horses in Mary Queen of Scots and my Atmos orchestral recording had crazy low bass). Another retune helped, but further listening changes caused lesser response issues when I remeasured. And I also had the PB12 caring a lot more load because the PB4000 was under some distress. I've reworked the settings again and have been able to remove a lot of the low bass EQ while at the same time reducing the 20Hz dip to a very slight depression. 3 db down at 14 Hz now, but that is fine. I'm due to remeasure to make sure I've not set off another roller coaster, but I could see when I was measuring that my low shelf was safe to use to compensate for microphone error below 40 Hz and I also could move the subs up and down relative to each other without hurting the response. Still listening and evaluating and of course will need to remeasure. I'm quite happy with the response and sound is looks even smoother than my graph above and clean. Tested the waters a bit last night with Hunter Killer and it was nicely improved.

I'm going to be doing Boss and tactiles for the lowest bass. Even juiced six ways to Sunday for 15 hz bass the tactiles on my slab floor just were not something to write home about.

I'm afraid to do a compression graph right now, but I'm sure I will eventually once everything is settled.

I'm much, much happier with PB4000 right now. In gloss black it looks amazing and it faces my dinner guests from the side in my dining area so just a view to a kill hehe. Given my issues at 20 Hz glad not to be trying to make the Monolith 15 work in that area since it wouldn't quite be up to carrying my PB12 which is dipping in that area and probably some port cancellation. One of the BEQ guys has two mono15's and does not look like they've been 100% reliable for him. SVS support is just magnificent and they've been getting calls from me (Monoprice/FedEx in two weeks still has not processed return). As it stands right now I was only out $125 more for the PB4000 and I'm just very, very satisfied. If I'm forced out of two port mode to three port I'll report that the Audioholics shows it have 5 db more continuous output than the Monolith at 20 Hz. Sadly Audioholics botched the two port test on the Monolith so we can't compare the two extended modes. For the PB4000 I lose about 5 db in maximum output above 20Hz, but that is fine since my corner PB12 and it have massive EQ to remove bass in that range; I'd much rather have the greater output at 16 Hz and a bit below. Something tells me if the monoprice was giving out at 20 Hz in three port mode that the gig might have been up for this test in 16 Hz mode:



PB4000 wins the amplifier contest:
massively powerful Sledge 1,200-watt continuous Class D design with 4,000+ watts of Peak Power.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

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post #16 of 30 Old 05-26-2020, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
What was the FR after you EQ'd in REW but before you boosted in minidsp?
.....
I think I've heard that below 15hz, for that bass to be impactful it has to be around 105db or better.
PB6000 can do 107 db at 16 Hz in extended mode and hoping my room boost gets that for me at the listening position. After getting attacked by that somewhat fatiguing juice bass at 15 Hz I'm not sure I'm reference material below 15 Hz and would welcome tactiles. This is all new to me and figuring out what I want. I've got plans to make some kind of Godzilla hover boss with sixteen 12 inch drivers. For now just ordered 4 and have amp that will given them 160 watts per channel each. That stupid boss platform is not just tactiles and might do 105 db or better down to 4 Hz. I'm not sure if I can take it so just starting with 4 drivers. If I go for 16 I think I run 8 per channel at 2 ohm load on inuke 12,000. If you believe the fairy tale specs thats 6000 watts per channel so over 700 per driver, but I think in reality it might cough out something like 2000 watts at 5 Hz.

By EQ in REW are you referring to an autoEQ biquad file? I just measure in REW and spend hours upon hours fixing things manually with minidsp. You'll have to clarify that first question and I have a feeling the discussion would be very interesting.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #17 of 30 Old 05-26-2020, 09:55 PM
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I've had a bit of a roller coaster taming the PB4000 and I don't want to go in it, but lets just say the house of cards fell down.

Because of BEQ I feel a need to protect the subs and I have 2nd order rolloff so 3 db down at 10 Hz with minor impact at 15 hz. Implementing a higher order rolloff instigatated a bit of a roller coaster in the response when I was first listening and I did not realize it. Might have had a 4 db plus bulge around 15 Hz and then ups and downs propogating up the response (galloping horses in Mary Queen of Scots and my Atmos orchestral recording had crazy low bass). Another retune helped, but further listening changes caused lesser response issues when I remeasured.
Do you actually need to add additional HPFs to the subs? SVS has its own High-pass built in, and they are known for their nearly bulletproof limiters. I know you use BEQ, but that is only bringing bass back to where it should be (and in some cases reducing dangerous peaks) Would you add a HPF if you were watching War of The Worlds or The Incredible Hulk or any of the other full-range bass movies? If they were DIY ported subs I would definitely say yes, but quality commercial subs??
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Why are you holding on to that pb12? I told you it was gonna be a pain to get 2 diff subs with diff tunes to work together nicely. Just sell it and save for a 2nd pb4000
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post #19 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you actually need to add additional HPFs to the subs? SVS has its own High-pass built in, and they are known for their nearly bulletproof limiters. I know you use BEQ, but that is only bringing bass back to where it should be (and in some cases reducing dangerous peaks) Would you add a HPF if you were watching War of The Worlds or The Incredible Hulk or any of the other full-range bass movies? If they were DIY ported subs I would definitely say yes, but quality commercial subs??
It is perhaps an over reaction to stress I heard with the PB4000 when it was overblown at 15 hz region and too much of the balance on the PB4000. I use 48db per octave with at 10 Hz with PB12-NSD and I can't hear any difference and just figure I'm reserving power for where its more useful. With PB4000 I'm not so sure that there is no impact on sound, but I'm probably unEQing that with a low shelf filter I'm using to give the rise in the graph down to below 15 Hz. Below 10 Hz I just want to conserve what I can.

Big picture I listen loud and max output of PB4000 is 107 at 16 Hz. I don't have two of them so really doing the work of two such subs in my room. I've hardly stressed the system yet with extreme BEQ with these subs working together and going much lower so I just need to listen. I don't have the auto BEQ settings running so a bit of a tax on my quickly sampling various movies, so this will take time and I'm thinking about gettings all those custom config files. One of my problems is I use one of my 10 minidsp slots to do my bass adjustments from 40 Hz and below for microphone inaccuracy. I need to watch more movies to determine what that setting should be permanently and then move it from where BEQ uses up to all ten of those Input PEQ settings. Its on the agenda, but I've got things outside of audio/video to get done before I go into Boss frenzy (drivers ordered last night and assembly begins in a week). I'm not sure how much Boss I can take given the high levels I like. Maybe I go so crazy with Boss that I don't need the PB4000, but as it stands its giving me more power handling with a big boost to extension.

Right now I'm a bit underwhelmed with the impact beyond power handling. I've achieve flatter bass. My last dual PB12 tune had a little bump at 22 Hz that gave the bass what I call a choclately sound, but then quickly dipping to -3 db at 19 Hz. This region is now really flat with the PB4000, but its not a quantum leap in performance in the audible range. I do hear a sonic impact with the greater extension, but overall its not making my day and I fear a long term fatigue factor. Right now on first listen the sound is more balanced with helps with that initial feeling of potential fatigue, but I'm not sure about flat down to 15 Hz not affecting me. I have a friend who had a massive 40 Hz spike in his (quite nice) two channel system. Other listeners could take a dose of bass heavy electronic, etc. music for long term and enjoy it. I had a flee factor and literally had to vacate the gathering and didn't listen for days. I certainly don't want to be triggering that with my video system. I got roasted a bit in BEQ thread for my hatred of the new Star Wars discs, but they seemed to be scratching my 40 Hz fear factor. I don't want to construct a great sounding system where I can't stand to watch a 2nd action movie in a row or the like because the utlralfe is making me more susceptible to 40 Hz sensitivity.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #20 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Why are you holding on to that pb12? I told you it was gonna be a pain to get 2 diff subs with diff tunes to work together nicely. Just sell it and save for a 2nd pb4000
Agreed except I do have them working together nicely now, so another PB4000 would gain me like a .1% improvement in sound. I can't even get SVS to cork sniff on the excellencies of the PB4000. I'm just going to listen, evaluate, and keep measuring.

I'd love some thoughts on SVS's use of pure silver wire connection from Amp to driver and other nicities, but bottom line these are long wavelenghts I think it really comes down to the numbers.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #21 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 05:29 PM
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another PB4000 would gain me like a .1% improvement in sound.
You sound like a smart guy, much smarter than me, but i don't see such a small increase adding another. If thats the case you might as well return the pb4000 and go for 3 pb12-nsd's.
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post #22 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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You sound like a smart guy, much smarter than me, but i don't see such a small increase adding another. If thats the case you might as well return the pb4000 and go for 3 pb12-nsd's.
Other options might be like dual Monoloth 12's or dual SVS 2000 Pro's. Dual Monolith 12's is nice, but I'll just go SVS for this other valid option. Two pros get me minimum 3db more and hopefully 2 hz more extension so maybe flat to 19 Hz with enought output. About $1725 with tax versus $1525 for the PB4000 deal I got. But assuming I can sell the PB12's for $425 locally the PB 2000's do the following:
1. Save me $225, but have to go through trouble of selling 2nd sub
2. Dual identical subs easier to setup
3. Cost me 5 hz in extension but might get me 1 db more output versus extended PB4000, but PB4000 in three port mode with PB12 would beat them both in output and extension.

Another PB4000 is just total overkill on the output and doubt it helps with extension. Mind you this setup I'm doing requires minidsp HD. A lot of people won't want to get that involved and then yes dual sub upgrade is the way to go.

At some point I'm probably going to try the single PB4000 midwall (don't have to move it) because I have more support down low so I can go as deep as possible with extended mode. I should be able to tame it reosonably well and I'll see if the PB4000 with its amp technology upgrade and silver wire and much more has some kind of cork sniffing advantage. If those subtle qualities really grab me then both PB12 go bye, bye and I'll do corner placement as you have directed. My output level would be pretty insane in the corner so no problems there and a slim hope that at 16 Hz and below the PB4000 gets down to at least 14 Hz flat.

The bass wars on in my abode with the boss platform project with the petal to the medal. I hope my ears can take it.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

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post #23 of 30 Old 05-28-2020, 12:22 AM
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Mate, you're a bit all over the shop here.

You want deep bass extension?,you use BEQ to bring back the deep bass from neutered movies? Going to PB-2000s will be a waste here IMHO, They will be all but totally useless under ~20Hz,same as the PB12.

I would sell the PB12-NSD, save up and get a 2nd PB-4000, both run in extended mode, this will net you 6dB under 20Hz

I would also try the dual PB-4000s in sealed mode - without any added HPFs in the 2x4HD - you may be pleasantly surprised


I know your system is a bit different from most here, and you seem to enjoy the experimentation, but don't throw good money after bad - buy once, cry once - get a 2nd PB-4000, and then spend your time dialing in positioning and room response
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Do you actually need to add additional HPFs to the subs? SVS has its own High-pass built in, and they are known for their nearly bulletproof limiters. I know you use BEQ, but that is only bringing bass back to where it should be (and in some cases reducing dangerous peaks) Would you add a HPF if you were watching War of The Worlds or The Incredible Hulk or any of the other full-range bass movies? If they were DIY ported subs I would definitely say yes, but quality commercial subs??
@GeoJustGeo


Well of course I went back and listened to recent BEQ recommendation G.I. Joe Retaliation. And the sound was bad.

First I auditioned the 12 db low pass rolloff and ejected it. The ripples through time and my LF response were not as heinous as before, but G.I. Joe was not right and I was sensing this watching the Expanse for the first time in HDR on Scamazon.

I'm guessing as to why is so bad:
1. First off I always get super flat response so any deviation from this is probably going to dissapoint.
2. But the 12 db filter was flat and it failed to add to the confusion
3. Once the 12 db filter was removed the response below 21 Hz was a minor trainwreck and that is the most likely cause of my sonic distress
4. Also in general maybe some shelves up or down in response 0.5 db on up to 80 Hz could be the culprit, but I favor #3
5. It also could just be that all the aggressive minidsp settings on the woofers is just WRONG. Its assumed one can get away with paremetric EQ murder below 80 Hz, but the whole house of cards just could be somehow measuring well at one microphone point and then sounding sickly in many others.

So at this point the endeavor is a fail. My current plans:
1. Tonight I'm going to explore the SVS apps phase knob to see if I can restore sanity to the low frequencies. And my subwoofer henchman is showing up tomorrow to hear PB4000 and we don't want to lay an egg. He could be an invaluable assistant with my Boss endeavors and has had home theater aspirations for a long time. So really a lot on the line in literally just 14 hours.
2. If extended phase games don't garner results, then its three port mode for the same thing and the whip will be cracking tonight and its almost midnight.
3. Run the PB4000 in three port mode midwall. It would be dead meat I suspect on its own in extended, but probably will try extended first. The reality is the PB4000 has a 9 db advantage in three port mode over PB12-NSD, but being midwall is a major handicap. In any event this solo mode will give me a feel for the character of the PB4000.
4. Put PB4000 in corner as the wise GeoJustGeo counseled and let it rip. That definitely will have the necessary output for the room. And SVS Ted was keen on perhaps putting PB12 NSD in my nearfield sofa table position to help. When I run REW room simulation I did not see this as viable, but perhaps it would do something and up the tactiel factor.

I'm sorry SVS for some bad feelings, but I was warned. The final last resort will be a call into SVS support. Its tabled for now until I want this sub past the 45 day return window, but my outlet store sub had more than the two pictured corner abbraisions. Its got a ten inch split in the finish that's hard to see, but easy to feel. I've reported to them and they've been amazing and I'm sure they'll do all they can. Monoprice on my THX 15 seems to have a polar opposite approach with their henchman's in crime FedEx. Sub got to me in like two days and Fedex is like two weeks getting it to mono so no ebay refund. I'll be pleasantly surprised if things are settled before the weekend. So still loving the SVS experience if not the pickle I've put myself in despite many warnings in this thread.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

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post #25 of 30 Old 05-28-2020, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Mate, you're a bit all over the shop here.

You want deep bass extension?,you use BEQ to bring back the deep bass from neutered movies? Going to PB-2000s will be a waste here IMHO, They will be all but totally useless under ~20Hz,same as the PB12.

I would sell the PB12-NSD, save up and get a 2nd PB-4000, both run in extended mode, this will net you 6dB under 20Hz

I would also try the dual PB-4000s in sealed mode - without any added HPFs in the 2x4HD - you may be pleasantly surprised


I know your system is a bit different from most here, and you seem to enjoy the experimentation, but don't throw good money after bad - buy once, cry once - get a 2nd PB-4000, and then spend your time dialing in positioning and room response
See my post above this one for a mea culpa.

Yep SVS Ted thought the same as you even on the Pros.

I will demur on your slights on the PB12-NSD and BEQ. I got a lot from BEQ; not in the tactile department, but oh the sound was oh so nice without the artificial roll off.

Frankly for the price of dual PB4000s I can go ape excrement with BOSS and other tactiles, so I'm just not a fan yet of that option. But I've got work to do as mentioned in the post above and phase 1 of my BOSS project should be underway next week.

Back to the subwoofer slave pit for me now. This is almost not fun hehe.

Edit: Good news. Just an hour after writing this had some promising settings and new ideas and G.I. Joe Retaliation is respectable. Not sure why, but 3 db down point is now 15 Hz, but response looks pretty smooth and quite correct and controlled in the lowest bass. That response seemed to be a good bit of the problem. Still due for another round of tweaking here and there to make things sing better, but this will do at least for tomorrow.

Edit 2: Well the Firefly scene explosions at the end of the movie did just touch the limiter light on the PB12-NSD so going to have to work on loading the PB4000 a bit more. Sound very satisfactory and oh boy was the PB4000 quaking when I over to watch its limiter light not light up.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

Last edited by meles; 05-28-2020 at 11:11 PM.
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post #26 of 30 Old 05-28-2020, 11:41 PM
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I think you're doing too much. Keep this simple.

1- Place your subs where you want/feel gives you the best response.
2- start from scratch (remove all HPF, LPF, EQ, Room Correction such as Audyessey etc etc, set your Center channel crossover at max like 200hz, Sub distances to 0)
3- Gain match your subs first
4- then Phase match them (start both at 0 or however your subs have them labeled. In the Minidsp start adding delay to your nearest sub in increments of 1. Run a sweep in REW with Channel 3 (center wont play since its crossed high but both subs will) from say 10-100. Set delay to 2 and repeat sweep. Rinse and repeat until you've found the best FR you can get. it won't be pretty but get it as close to flat as it will go.
5- Run room correction
6- save that FR and post here.
7- use the EQ function in REW to drop the Peaks. Dont try to boost nulls in Minidsp.
8- post both FR in here.

As for BEQ on that movie in Amazon, most of the BEQ's are done for the discs. Chances are you might have used a BEQ that was not meant for the source you were using so it sounded horrible. Or it could be you have so many filters and EQ that it muddled the sound.
The advice i've always been given is the less EQ the better.

I'm not an expert but i've moved my subs to 3 different rooms in the last 2 years and have been able to get them working great in every room even tho they are 2 completely different subs.

Also you don't want your FR to be flat. Flat is the starting goal, but then you want to have about a 5-10db slope from say 15-80hz.
Here's an example of mine with 2 subs from 2 different companies with 2 different driver sizes, different power handling, different port tune, 1 far field and 1 near field behind my couch. No smoothing.
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I forgot to say that graph is without any EQ at all in the minidsp. I gain/phase matched them the best i could then let Audy do its thing. In the past i have used about 7 filters in the minidsp on the output side to get similar results but now i go by the advice the less EQ the better, so even tho i could get it much flatter and cleaner, im very pleased with the sound and decided not to touch it.

Others advise to do the EQ before room correction (Audy) so you're feeding it the best FR from the start causing Audy to not have to do too much work. I tried that approach and it didn't work as well for me.

In the end you're going to have to sell that pb12nsd lol. I didnt listen either, i wish i had 2 of the same subs but lesson learned for next time. We are trying to save you from repeating many of our same mistakes lol.
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post #28 of 30 Old 05-29-2020, 07:22 AM
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If you want ultra low subsonic response wait for the Outlaw X13 to go on it's annual sale $999 (free shipping) it hits 96.9dB @ 12.5hz!
A pair of those would net you up to 102.9db @ 12.5hz!
It's by far the cheapest solution to get that ultrasonic response.


edit: NVM i saw you already picked up a PB4000
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post #29 of 30 Old 05-31-2020, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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If you want ultra low subsonic response wait for the Outlaw X13 to go on it's annual sale $999 (free shipping) it hits 96.9dB @ 12.5hz!
A pair of those would net you up to 102.9db @ 12.5hz!
It's by far the cheapest solution to get that ultrasonic response.


edit: NVM i saw you already picked up a PB4000
Its always good to hear about other options and 102.9 at 12.5 Hz is incredible for that price. I'm just amazed at the competition and value as you go up in price. JTR Captivator ULF4000 I believe seems quite expensive, but lets say $4000 for dual 18s and 6000 watt amp! Too much for dual 18's? Power Sound Audio TV3612.

Your sub 1 port long term output:

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #30 of 30 Old 05-31-2020, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
I think you're doing too much. Keep this simple.

1- Place your subs where you want/feel gives you the best response.
2- start from scratch (remove all HPF, LPF, EQ, Room Correction such as Audyessey etc etc, set your Center channel crossover at max like 200hz, Sub distances to 0)
3- Gain match your subs first
4- then Phase match them (start both at 0 or however your subs have them labeled. In the Minidsp start adding delay to your nearest sub in increments of 1. Run a sweep in REW with Channel 3 (center wont play since its crossed high but both subs will) from say 10-100. Set delay to 2 and repeat sweep. Rinse and repeat until you've found the best FR you can get. it won't be pretty but get it as close to flat as it will go.
5- Run room correction
6- save that FR and post here.
7- use the EQ function in REW to drop the Peaks. Dont try to boost nulls in Minidsp.
8- post both FR in here.

As for BEQ on that movie in Amazon, most of the BEQ's are done for the discs. Chances are you might have used a BEQ that was not meant for the source you were using so it sounded horrible. Or it could be you have so many filters and EQ that it muddled the sound.
The advice i've always been given is the less EQ the better.

I'm not an expert but i've moved my subs to 3 different rooms in the last 2 years and have been able to get them working great in every room even tho they are 2 completely different subs.

Also you don't want your FR to be flat. Flat is the starting goal, but then you want to have about a 5-10db slope from say 15-80hz.
Here's an example of mine with 2 subs from 2 different companies with 2 different driver sizes, different power handling, different port tune, 1 far field and 1 near field behind my couch. No smoothing.
Sorry for not coming back in this thread and looking for post, but I've been in hot pursuit. To start this post I want to agree with the sentiment to not do what I've done here even though I now feel I've found success. Thanks so much for your help and its very, very interesting to hear about different ways to skin the cat.

SVS Ted suggestest this just to add to the mix; get both subs flat in minidsp and then do the phase nob. I've done a variation of this where I just never touched the phase nobs and it came out quite well; perhaps the most musical settings I've done. I've also done throw both subs in (did not move from placement above) with no phase adjustment and just hit it with minidsp. And lately I've been doing adjust phase first and then adjust both subs. The SVS approach was rejected for this because I did not want the PB4000 running flat since its carrying the load for two subs from 14-20 Hz.

In my system their is no Auddyssey so minidsp is the only game in town. For those with preferrabley Auddsyey XT32 (and I parrot on Audyssey and can't spell it.), I would almost always recommend a minidsp even over the SVS app parametrics (which don't allow adjustment below 20 Hz). I've not done it, but I'd do episode 7, 26.1, and this from HomeTheaterGurus (I needed control because my bass layer does have some odd output below and above 80 Hz):
Then you can try all the methods discussed in the thread and probably get great results fast.

For my setup I do them manually which takes a ton of time and much to my chagrin the settings between these two subs have been like a house of cards so when I listen and try to tweak them in all the way sometimes just a change of 0.1 db or even Q of 0.1 can make a big difference; that is not normal. For this combo I've come to realize that I must just go for visual perfection with no tweaking which has worked great in the past. So again I don't recommend the sub combo done here specifically because of this reason. I've seen a lot of experts like AVRant poo poo this forum and say its nonsense that you can't run different subs together. They are right to some extent, but if you really want things perfect I'm not so sure this is great advice because I'm hearing important differences in the sound which I think primarily have to do with the bass perhaps below 25 Hz or so and getting it right.

So here is my final graph for now:

The totally flat graph is a manufactured guess to the actual response as I'm using a stock umik-1 that has not been calibrated by cross spectrum and may have significant bass errors. When I adjust bass below 40 Hz I use a low_shelf filter with settings like 10 Hz 0.3 db and 0.5 Q (current settings, but the db can varied a lot and the Q massaged a bit to make kind of a "house" curve for a microphone.) The red EQ'd response is what is going to the SVS subs and this is averaged with the Base Layer response (5.0.4 Atmos system). The rest of the system has no auddsey like calibration so minidsp is the only game for me.

The Measured Final is not exactly the final (just what I have now) and does not reflect my little mic/house curve adjustment of 0.3 db (that small adjustment probably indistinguishable on the graph).

The Black no so good sound is a reasonable looking graph like the Measured Final that left me wanting better sound. I did give it a huge adjustment/boost in the bass with the mic/house curve and it helped, but just overall even with a similar slope it left me wanting.

So right now I'm in some form of sonic ecstacy with the current settings so allow me to cork sniff what I'm hearing for the first time before getting back to the whether to's and why for's of the lowest bass.
1. The bass has really, really locked in. I've always gone for very flat and just assumed it was not absolutely necessary when I went for this sub combo. So I've had pretty darn flat before, but not like what I have now. This flat sound can be just a tad clinical as sometimes we like colorations like my "chocolate" sound with my PB12's when I went from 21 Hz 3db down to 19 Hz, but at the expense of a little 2 db bass bump. I'm sure other little errors in the bass can elicit other effects that are very pleasing. For now I'll just say that flatness (or perhaps I am doing a little house curve in the low bass) just is more revealing in a good way.
2. On one of my favorite reference tracks I ended up playing something like 20% lower volume. My guess is before with those colorations that I had to turn up the volume a bit to get all those hi-fi qualities to come out and this was at the expense of some harshness which I blamed on the soundtrack. For me at this stage this is a priceless quality as I go for more and more bass. I listen at reference volume or maybe even a touch beyond so backing off a bit in level is huge for me. I suspect this effect is perhaps also from having better extension which compared to my previous dual PB12-NSD which is granting a bit of a loudness effect versus less extended systems.
3. For my Atmos trackings with this uber flat response all the little details are just popping out. I certainly have noticed this affect with prior tunings and its a big driver in going for perfection (I'm saying its worth going for the flattest possible response, and then applying your house curve.)
4. Dialing the low end extension below 20 Hz just so also seems to really enhance the tactile feel to things. I'm not sure what this affect is but my little mic/house curve EQ that now stands at only 0.3 db really makes a difference. It seems silly when you've got massive BEQ settings swamping the same area, but nonetheless tuning that slam effect pays big dividends to my ears. You really want this tuned just so and once I have this adjusted for my graphs I never get benefit varying it from movie to movie so far. This last tuning I really tried to get my PEQing of the subs to come out with my preferred curve without this adjustment. This one you definitely tune by ear. And I'll add that because how we reproduce low frequencies impacts are perceptions of the highs, that this level of cork sniffing can really add to the natural perfect effect to the high frequencies so you're really dialing in both things and they appear to improve together.

This is all tricky stuff and if you look at the graphs the "bad" sounding black graph looks pretty darn flat. Why do they sound so different:
1. First the ear can easily hear pretty broad level changes so just 0.1 db shelfing up or down is easily audible.
2. From my tuning of the upper bass I'd say the main benefit from flattening is removing little peaks that inevitably are muddying your sound from the rest of your speakers. Getting rid of one little peak or tamping it down is a very subtle change and doubt it effects the bass character very much.
3. As you go lower in frequency every little dip and valley makes more of a difference. This does make sense as we see response graphs show these low frequencies as a greater percentage of the sound. For me this was most true below 25 Hz. I've spoke of the Chocolate sound of the little bass bump at 22-23 Hz. I suspect every little filling of a valley by 0.1 db is important in this range and this is responsible for much of the bass character of a system.

So right now I'm elated with the sound, but I still have work to do. Despite now having the PB4000 nominally get 9 db more requested from it I still am seeing limiter lights touch up on the big bass impact scenes on the PB12-NSD and not the PB4000. I do think I'm very close and may just leave it alone. I've got a couple big bass boosts on the PB12-NSD and one at 60 Hz I'm going to try to move over to the PB4000 which has more output in that range. Minidsp HD has 10 parametric type settings possible and what I've done is move three of those over to the SVS app to free up slots. I'm currently using 7 slots, but one will be taken up by my mic/house curve setting from the inputs (BEQ needs all those inputs free ). So I have two to spare and this will be my next trick to try to share the load. I also need to watch more bone crushing bass scenes as I've only tested this with explosion scenes at end of GI Joe Retaliation and that might be hitting upper bass a bit harder than the average BEQ heavy. If I have to leave it as is that is fine because the PB12-NSD is not under much duress now and its probably better to have it be the sacrificial lamb as in the long run hammering subs with BEQ does shorten their lifespan.

Again don't do this kind of dual setup. I had a very, very hard time filling the hole at 20 Hz and many other issues in the response. I've had to do things like:
1. reduce bass on one PEQ to get the overall response to go up.
2. massage about five different PEQs around 20 Hz to get the valley to fill. The direct boost at 20 Hz could only do so much and eventually as I boosted it lost output and then causes waves in response beyond.
3. Because of phase issues in parts of the range sometimes you'd alter Q and on one side the response would move and on the other it would not budge at all.
4. You also have level differences between the subs so when out of PEQs on the PB4000 you'd have to do a lot more on the lesser sub to get the same impact and of course weird moves in FR because of this as well.
5. In general nothing you wanted to do directly in BEQ worked all that well because of 3 and 4 impacting. I also believe that their was special issue due to the different LF rolloffs which is why the 20 Hz valley was so, so hard to deal with.
6. All those warnings aside if you have tons of flexibility in your placement then doing two, three, and even four different subs in the same room may be dramatically easier.

I'm also quite confident minidsp HD has a bug with its PEQ as the response was always quite different if you used the slider to get to db whole numbers like 2.0, 4.0, 16.0, etc. If one uses the up and down arrows on the keyboard to get to these same numbers the response was usually different. What's worse as more times than not the slider activated whole number gave much better behavior than all the numbers so if I had to guess I'd say any db settings not down with the slider don't work right.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

Last edited by meles; 05-31-2020 at 09:32 AM.
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