PB12-NSD (corner) with Monolith Ported 15 (midwall) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 04-30-2020, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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PB12-NSD (corner) with Monolith Ported 15 (midwall)

Currently I have two PB12-NSD with one near a corner and one mid-wall about on 26 foot wall (3700 cubic feet room). With a minidsp-HD I'm able to get smooth response with 3db down at 21 Hz and ruler flat starting at 23 Hz. These two subs are enough output for the room, but now that I'm doing BEQ (AVSforum group) and doing things like boosting bass by 12 db at 25hz on Edge of Tomorrow I'm thinking that I want more subsonic bass below 20 Hz and a bit more output would not hurt.

I'd keep the corner placed PB12-NSD and put the Monolith midwall. Here are Audioholics numbers on two PB12's and one Mono 15 in 2 port mode:


The corner PB12 has gobs of output in the mid-twenties so the leanness of the Monolith 2 port mode here is great and 2 port gets you the best response for 20 Hz and below. The numbers above are for two PB12, but I figure with the corner advantage that those are a fair proxy for the single corner placed PB12.

My hope is to use the minidsp HD to heavily contour the Monoprice 15 to have it do the heavly lifting for 12-20 hz while taming it elsewhere so it can do that heavy lifting.

Any hopes for such a radical scheme? Another option is to just get the 12 inch monoprice for now and then if not enough put the monoprice 12 in corner and get the 15. I really like those sub 20hz specs on the 15 that much more and that its very tempting. The 15 at a minor discount in monoprice ebay story.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #2 of 22 Old 04-30-2020, 01:44 PM
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if you like the monolith 15, why not just get two of those?
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Front: Polk S55
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post #3 of 22 Old 04-30-2020, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
if you like the monolith 15, why not just get two of those?
Kind of a budget buster for me and two PB12's have enough output for BEQ (bass equalization) you just don't get any subsonic glory in my room with the PB12 (a friend gets to 16 hz with just one.). I could also trade in for two Pb2000 pro, but I figure that only gets me a couple hz lower, bags of output. Two Monolith 12's fine two, but the 15 digs down deeper. The Monolith 15 would just give me some street cred with the BEQ crowd.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #4 of 22 Old 05-01-2020, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are the two subwoofers individually measured with no crossover:

The red line is the one in the corner. The blue is in the midwall position where I want to upgrade to the Monolith 15.

Using the Audioholic specs the Monolith 15 has on average 10.6 db more output from 30-125 hertz. And we see from the above graph that the corner placement gives about 10 db more output over most of the bass range hence my hope to pair these disparate subwoofers in the same room.

What I'm going to next is to try to simulate how the Monolith 15 will work the corner boosted PB12. I am going to turn up the current midwall PB12 by 10.5 db and see if I can get them to blend well. This will work well down to about 20 hz where the gap between the two subwoofer models is only 9.9 db by the audioholic specs, but by 16 and 12 Hz well I can add 4.6 db at 16 hz to the final graph perhaps. No spec for pb12-nsd at 12.5 hertz, but on its own in theory the combo probably good for 99 db maximum output out standing in a field. My hope is that at that low frequency the Monolith will get 10 db of boost, but REW room simulation won't go that low so I'm not sure. With that boost, the combo would get close 110 db at 12.5 hz and I'll have to see if I can find a tool that might forecast the room boost. Right now from 23 hertz and up my dual PB12 setup gets 112 db maximum continuous output at the listening position, so my hope is to some how massage the two and take my 3 db down point to 16 hertz or maybe even 12.5 if the room has huge boost down that low.

May the force be with me and I'll update with some more graphics today as I progress with the test.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #5 of 22 Old 05-01-2020, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Well if I didn't have a minidsp and bought this sub this is what I show would be the result without massaging phase or doing anything:


We have the simulated new sub (the PB12 boosted 10.6 db) midwall as that red line with those peaks at 50 and 95 hertz standing above all. The corner sub is the cobalt blue and is same measurement from the post above. The fatter aquamarine line is the two PB12's averaged. And finally the thick black line is the simulated Monolith summed with the corner PB12.

Right away we see the aquamarine line is much smoother than the the Monolith/SVS in room combo which makes a strong, strong case for the typical wisdom to have identical model subwoofers or at least ones with the same output. We also see that from 20 to 30 Hz we net about 3 db more output combined and if one imagines smoothing the response to average 92 db well maybe a three db down point of 20 Hz. So again without minidsp this upgrade is getting a thumbs down because its not getting me more output than just going to PB2000 Pro (worth 3-4 db) and in theory dual PB2000 Pros would get my 3db down point 2 hz lower.

Might as well check the subsonic benefit at this point too so at 16 hz the combined output of the PB12s stands at 74 db versus lets say 89 db for the hoped smoothed line, so -15 db. The Monolith/PB12 combo is 82.6 versus the 92 db flat response and of course we must add 7.1 db by the specs as the real Monolith will average in that much higher so we have 89.7 db versus the baseline of 92 so well it does look like 16Hz 3 db down possible.

Now these averages aren't the actual response of the two subs combined and assume no phase issues, so up next for the first time I shall attempt to massage the phase on my subs to get them to play better than before and hopefully achieve a smoother response with nearly the same output.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #6 of 22 Old 05-01-2020, 12:36 PM
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Looking at those plots I think one monolith 15" in your corner will be as good or better than your current duals. Sell what you got now, get the 1 monolith 15 and then get a 2nd later when you got the funds.

Front: Polk S55
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post #7 of 22 Old 05-01-2020, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Before I mess with phase lets check the averaging specs for these subwoofers:

The theoretical of two PB12s is just the single PB12 +6. We have averages from 30-125 hz to get a feel for overall output level. And the variance of these over the same frequency range. The Average +6 is the average of the monolith and the single pb12 specs +6. The average +6 seems right in my mind, but that's not from the standard subwoofer playback. Certainly if you average two identical subwoofers it holds.

So from the above we see by the specs we are expecting the response to be -13 db for the combo at 16 hertz so its very nice that we have hopes of -3 db with the room boosting the Monolith 15 2 port mode as discussed in the post above. At 20 hz we expected -6.9 db down so the hoped for -3 db after smoothing is good. At 25 hz we show flat whereas the average responses show -2.8 db so another win.

Despite the rather raucous combined output this does look promising and boosting a bit at 20 hz and 16 of the Monolith is allowed since it still has good output at those frequencies, so perhaps a bit lower is possible. At 12.5 hz the PB12 in room average to 61.2 db. The measured mock combo stands at 69 db so nearly 8 db better. We don't have a 12.5 hz spec for the PB12 (measured too low versus ambient noise) so me just use a single Monolith 15's number which should be 18 db down and just a loss of 5 db from the 16 hz number. So -8 db down at 12.5 hz with some room for minidsp boosting and its possible the room could be helping that a touch more.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #8 of 22 Old 05-01-2020, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Looking at those plots I think one monolith 15" in your corner will be as good or better than your current duals. Sell what you got now, get the 1 monolith 15 and then get a 2nd later when you got the funds.
Yeah if I can simulate smoothing this and it doesn't look promising then maybe that wins as the Monolith in the corner will get boosted six ways to Sunday.

I continue with my simulations as the midwall position may indeed get some selective boosting of just the subsonic frequencies. I value extension much more at this point than output since I'm nearly there and the Monolith 15 will put me over the line easily. The Monolith in the corner might be harder to tame with all that boost in the 20-30 Hz range and get the same extension, but I'll have to take a harder look at those prospects.

In any event if my fantasy combo looks good I buy one Monoprice now and then sell one PB12. Then down the line another subwoofer can replace the remaining PB12.

Subwoofers really behave well to theory so I think this simulation may be close enough to reality that I'll go through a thorough setup and just save the setting and when the Monolith arrives just drop it in with very little need of adjustment. I'm just doing work now I'd have to do later so this continues.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #9 of 22 Old 05-01-2020, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Well hopefully this images hosts for a while as I just got address from gmail I sent:

Dropbox is down right now so using this unreliable method of hosting.

Here is the 10.6 db boosted PB12 blended with the corner placed one and looks like 16 hz -3 db possible once you add the 7.1 db adjustment for the specs of PB12/Monolith 15 combo.

I'll now try to dig up measurement for the corner sub flattened and see if a single Monolith gets more extension. By the specs the PB12 only adds about 1.2 db of output to the Monolith, but that fails to take in the advantage of the corner which is worth probably 8-10 db, so probably gains 5 db at least over Monolith in middle wall. Monolith alone in corner would have 8-10 db advantage so 3-5 db more than this combo alone. But I don't need output and want extension so I'll dig up that measurement ... right now:

Oh daddy my sub combo has 13 db more output at 16 hz over the single Monolith simulated, but the single Monolith gets a bigger adjust than 7.1 db....... its gets 14.2 db, but that's still net about 6 db short of the combo so yes the combo gives more extension. I'll take it because that extension and about 5 db more output more than enough. 10 db more output is not what I want. 3 hz more extension and maybe more in my room will do. Hoping to net drop my 3 db down point from 21 to 14 Hertz.
Edit: and got 13 Hz with PB4000 and might have gotten 11 Hz with Mono 15 abliet perhaps a touch lean sounding at 20 Hz vs the PB4000.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

Last edited by meles; 05-23-2020 at 05:51 PM.
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post #10 of 22 Old 05-02-2020, 01:50 PM
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From someone who started out with a PB12 NSD and moved up from there, i recommend you get rid of both those subs and just save yourself time and money and go for dual Monolith 15's.

If you can only afford 1 now start there, but dont bother with mixing and matching. I have 2 different subs, diff driver size, diff port tune, different everything, its a pain.

2 Monolith 15's and a BOSS would be my end game (for my budget) if i could do it all over again. I dont think you can get better bass for under $3k than that.
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post #11 of 22 Old 05-02-2020, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
From someone who started out with a PB12 NSD and moved up from there, i recommend you get rid of both those subs and just save yourself time and money and go for dual Monolith 15's.

If you can only afford 1 now start there, but dont bother with mixing and matching. I have 2 different subs, diff driver size, diff port tune, different everything, its a pain.

2 Monolith 15's and a BOSS would be my end game (for my budget) if i could do it all over again. I dont think you can get better bass for under $3k than that.
That sounds really nice. Where do we draw the buttkicker line? If we are to 20 Hz flat then is it acceptable to do tactile stuff like crowley, buttkicker, boss, and more? Or do we need to get much lower. I'm not sure I can handle something insane like 5hz flat response with some science experiment subwoofer setup. Even though the ear can't hear this will it take more of a toll?

I've got an ottoman so will boss, etc just under chairs feel off with a vibrating Ottoman?


Well in modelling that in my room I also reworked my two PB12-NSDs with their new Edge of Tommorrow limiter light balance and the AVrant two subwoofer method. So now I have 3db down point at 19 hz instead of 21 hz. I just hand tuned my visual minidsp settings and well its just absolutely singing with all sorts of cork sniffing nicities (first rate Atmos piano concerto) and don't think it was just two more Hz of extension.

So my 167 pound hippo hero (Monolith) is on hold because..:
1. New response even smoother and I'm not sure I can tame the hippo and PB12 to be quite as good.
2. Now dual PB2000 pro will get me down to 17 hz in my room plus 3-4 db more output for limiter light free performance. More of a guaranteed win, but also 17 hz is not the hoped for 14 hz with nice slow rolloff for more tactiles.
3. Now that I'm just a hertz away from ruler flat to 20hz maybe its buttkicker time.
4. I need more time punishing my ears with BEQ to make the final decision on what I need as more ear bleeding scare me from even longer pressure waves.

Still in the throws of subwoofer nervosa. I just need to take my cork sniffing time and experience more of the BEQ for a while before pulling the trigger. Though I would like a hippopatamus by Christmas.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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post #12 of 22 Old 05-22-2020, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
From someone who started out with a PB12 NSD and moved up from there, i recommend you get rid of both those subs and just save yourself time and money and go for dual Monolith 15's.

If you can only afford 1 now start there, but dont bother with mixing and matching. I have 2 different subs, diff driver size, diff port tune, different everything, its a pain.

2 Monolith 15's and a BOSS would be my end game (for my budget) if i could do it all over again. I dont think you can get better bass for under $3k than that.
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Looking at those plots I think one monolith 15" in your corner will be as good or better than your current duals. Sell what you got now, get the 1 monolith 15 and then get a 2nd later when you got the funds.
Well its worse. The Monolith 15 got rejected at the door for shipping damage and now I have SVS PB4000.

Just trust SVS so much and a few of the test specs I liked:

I had no time to calculate as one must leap on the SVS Memorial Day week deal ($1500 less 5% returning customer discount for the gloss model), but the PB4000s stronger output at 16 Hz was a real attraction (the worse 12.5 hz number didn't stick out like it should) and 1 db less output was not a concern in my room.

I'm doing a Hover Boss in the next 30 days likely a deluxe one with a ton of drivers, so I suspect that will get the 12.5 Hz job done just fine.

I literallly just hooked it PB4000 and have applied the settings (adjusted gain levels for the reality) that I modelled in MiniDSP. Impressions/Musings:
1. Latency - I'm flying blind here because I doubt the two subwoofers are the same.
2. I'm on a concrete slab and the pants are flapping a bit differently, but this has not been tranformational.

I'll have to measure and tune tomorrow. The sound is about what I expected from the trial run. Its reasonably balanced, but I'll have try a bit harder now that the subwoofer in question is actually in my room.

I'm always one to hear what I lost first before I pick up what I've gained. My last dual pb 12 setup had a little bass bulge at 22 Hz that gave a little choclately bass flavoror maybe it was getting those extra 2 Hz of extenstion down to 19 Hz . The new combo seems lean to the ear right around this area so will interesting to see how it measure right out of the gate with these initial modelled setting and then of course to see if I can get the desired extension with a smooth response.

Keeping score right now in my room:
Two PB12NSD with minidsp HD >>>>>>>>>> PB4000 without minidsp HD (if you really care about sound you simply have to have minidsp and for one listening spot I'd rate that over dual subs). Granted with SVS app and REW (plus mic) you could get the PB4000 much closer to the Minidsp HD. (And in reality they could be the same if you end up only needing the range of settings that the SVS app completely covers.

Two PB12NSDs really setup well with minidsp HD >> PB4000 with Corner PB12NSD setup blind with minidsp HD and untuned (and maybe one of those two sub clashing deals is happening, but I doubt it here).

I'm beginning to suspect that what look like small changes in response in the low 20 Hz range and maybe a bit lower are much more audible then a similar small change at lets say 60 Hz.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

Last edited by meles; 05-22-2020 at 10:14 PM.
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post #13 of 22 Old 05-23-2020, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Well the PB4000 two port with the Corner PB12-NSD is working.

The PB12 is helping out nicely from about 20 to 50 Hz, and the PB4000 does most of the rest of the response. The 3 db down point is 13 Hz so that is something over the previous 19 Hz (I've not evaluated if it was worth the price of admission.) The Monolith 15 would have worked as making it flat to the 14-16 Hz range was no problem, but at 20 Hz the dip probably would have been a db worse for a less smooth response and a little bit wimpier sound in the lowest frequencies. (It did take luck to get 20 Hz up with minidsp as parametric EQ was applied at 16, 18, 20, 23, & 25 hz between the two subs to tame the combination). On the other hand that Monolith 15 would have gone done even lower than the PB4000 and I'd liked to have seen what it would have done. It certainly looks like it would have made it to 12 Hz and hard to predict beyond that, but I'd guess maybe even -3db of 11 Hz in room. I'm very happy with the performance of the PB4000 and glad I went with it given the utterly incredible support they have. Frankly Monoprice needs to work on their game and you're basically treated like someone buying a $6 HDMI cable. I love their stuff, but I feel so much safer in SVS hands with such a heavy device with an extended warranty where you might have to ship the item back (SVS has user replaceable drivers and will let you replace modules in the field which saves money and downtime). That being said right now on sale at 2/3rds the price of the PB4000 ($1200 vs $1900) well the Monolith 15's price makes up for a lot of potential grief.

As others predicted in this thread it was a lot of work to tame this combination and frankly when I go into hand tune by ear the q's and db levels of everything their are quite a few settings I won't do because frankly the response above was a real house of cards. Another pain with two different subwoofers was the differing latency. Your probably fine with the newest generation of SVS together (1000 too old), but the PB12-NSD SVS estimated to have 3 ms Latency and the newer PB4000 had 5 ms. Also on the gain settings I called SVS and some rules of thumb:
1. PB12-NSD at noon is about -10 db, just past 1 where I am is about -8.5db
2. PB4000 is digital db setting so very different from the knob

I'm eager to hear the combo of the $2000 sub with the $780 one. (well $1425 and $500 for me). I'll report back if the extra 6 Hz of extension in my room was worth it.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

Last edited by meles; 05-23-2020 at 05:45 PM.
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post #14 of 22 Old 05-24-2020, 06:18 AM
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What was the FR after you EQ'd in REW but before you boosted in minidsp?

Sucks to hear about the Monolith shipping damage!

In the 12.5hz range on your comparison numbers between the m15 and 4000, it would take 1.5 - 3 PB4000's to do what the m15 does by itself, and the m15 is hundreds cheaper.

I'm curious what a compression graph would show of your sub's (combined) current setup.

I think I've heard that below 15hz, for that bass to be impactful it has to be around 105db or better.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoJustGeo View Post
What was the FR after you EQ'd in REW but before you boosted in minidsp?

Sucks to hear about the Monolith shipping damage!

In the 12.5hz range on your comparison numbers between the m15 and 4000, it would take 1.5 - 3 PB4000's to do what the m15 does by itself, and the m15 is hundreds cheaper.

I'm curious what a compression graph would show of your sub's (combined) current setup.

I think I've heard that below 15hz, for that bass to be impactful it has to be around 105db or better.
I've had a bit of a roller coaster taming the PB4000 and I don't want to go in it, but lets just say the house of cards fell down.

Because of BEQ I feel a need to protect the subs and I have 2nd order rolloff so 3 db down at 10 Hz with minor impact at 15 hz. Implementing a higher order rolloff instigatated a bit of a roller coaster in the response when I was first listening and I did not realize it. Might have had a 4 db plus bulge around 15 Hz and then ups and downs propogating up the response (galloping horses in Mary Queen of Scots and my Atmos orchestral recording had crazy low bass). Another retune helped, but further listening changes caused lesser response issues when I remeasured. And I also had the PB12 caring a lot more load because the PB4000 was under some distress. I've reworked the settings again and have been able to remove a lot of the low bass EQ while at the same time reducing the 20Hz dip to a very slight depression. 3 db down at 14 Hz now, but that is fine. I'm due to remeasure to make sure I've not set off another roller coaster, but I could see when I was measuring that my low shelf was safe to use to compensate for microphone error below 40 Hz and I also could move the subs up and down relative to each other without hurting the response. Still listening and evaluating and of course will need to remeasure. I'm quite happy with the response and sound is looks even smoother than my graph above and clean. Tested the waters a bit last night with Hunter Killer and it was nicely improved.

I'm going to be doing Boss and tactiles for the lowest bass. Even juiced six ways to Sunday for 15 hz bass the tactiles on my slab floor just were not something to write home about.

I'm afraid to do a compression graph right now, but I'm sure I will eventually once everything is settled.

I'm much, much happier with PB4000 right now. In gloss black it looks amazing and it faces my dinner guests from the side in my dining area so just a view to a kill hehe. Given my issues at 20 Hz glad not to be trying to make the Monolith 15 work in that area since it wouldn't quite be up to carrying my PB12 which is dipping in that area and probably some port cancellation. One of the BEQ guys has two mono15's and does not look like they've been 100% reliable for him. SVS support is just magnificent and they've been getting calls from me (Monoprice/FedEx in two weeks still has not processed return). As it stands right now I was only out $125 more for the PB4000 and I'm just very, very satisfied. If I'm forced out of two port mode to three port I'll report that the Audioholics shows it have 5 db more continuous output than the Monolith at 20 Hz. Sadly Audioholics botched the two port test on the Monolith so we can't compare the two extended modes. For the PB4000 I lose about 5 db in maximum output above 20Hz, but that is fine since my corner PB12 and it have massive EQ to remove bass in that range; I'd much rather have the greater output at 16 Hz and a bit below. Something tells me if the monoprice was giving out at 20 Hz in three port mode that the gig might have been up for this test in 16 Hz mode:



PB4000 wins the amplifier contest:
massively powerful Sledge 1,200-watt continuous Class D design with 4,000+ watts of Peak Power.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

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What was the FR after you EQ'd in REW but before you boosted in minidsp?
.....
I think I've heard that below 15hz, for that bass to be impactful it has to be around 105db or better.
PB6000 can do 107 db at 16 Hz in extended mode and hoping my room boost gets that for me at the listening position. After getting attacked by that somewhat fatiguing juice bass at 15 Hz I'm not sure I'm reference material below 15 Hz and would welcome tactiles. This is all new to me and figuring out what I want. I've got plans to make some kind of Godzilla hover boss with sixteen 12 inch drivers. For now just ordered 4 and have amp that will given them 160 watts per channel each. That stupid boss platform is not just tactiles and might do 105 db or better down to 4 Hz. I'm not sure if I can take it so just starting with 4 drivers. If I go for 16 I think I run 8 per channel at 2 ohm load on inuke 12,000. If you believe the fairy tale specs thats 6000 watts per channel so over 700 per driver, but I think in reality it might cough out something like 2000 watts at 5 Hz.

By EQ in REW are you referring to an autoEQ biquad file? I just measure in REW and spend hours upon hours fixing things manually with minidsp. You'll have to clarify that first question and I have a feeling the discussion would be very interesting.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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I've had a bit of a roller coaster taming the PB4000 and I don't want to go in it, but lets just say the house of cards fell down.

Because of BEQ I feel a need to protect the subs and I have 2nd order rolloff so 3 db down at 10 Hz with minor impact at 15 hz. Implementing a higher order rolloff instigatated a bit of a roller coaster in the response when I was first listening and I did not realize it. Might have had a 4 db plus bulge around 15 Hz and then ups and downs propogating up the response (galloping horses in Mary Queen of Scots and my Atmos orchestral recording had crazy low bass). Another retune helped, but further listening changes caused lesser response issues when I remeasured.
Do you actually need to add additional HPFs to the subs? SVS has its own High-pass built in, and they are known for their nearly bulletproof limiters. I know you use BEQ, but that is only bringing bass back to where it should be (and in some cases reducing dangerous peaks) Would you add a HPF if you were watching War of The Worlds or The Incredible Hulk or any of the other full-range bass movies? If they were DIY ported subs I would definitely say yes, but quality commercial subs??
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Why are you holding on to that pb12? I told you it was gonna be a pain to get 2 diff subs with diff tunes to work together nicely. Just sell it and save for a 2nd pb4000
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Do you actually need to add additional HPFs to the subs? SVS has its own High-pass built in, and they are known for their nearly bulletproof limiters. I know you use BEQ, but that is only bringing bass back to where it should be (and in some cases reducing dangerous peaks) Would you add a HPF if you were watching War of The Worlds or The Incredible Hulk or any of the other full-range bass movies? If they were DIY ported subs I would definitely say yes, but quality commercial subs??
It is perhaps an over reaction to stress I heard with the PB4000 when it was overblown at 15 hz region and too much of the balance on the PB4000. I use 48db per octave with at 10 Hz with PB12-NSD and I can't hear any difference and just figure I'm reserving power for where its more useful. With PB4000 I'm not so sure that there is no impact on sound, but I'm probably unEQing that with a low shelf filter I'm using to give the rise in the graph down to below 15 Hz. Below 10 Hz I just want to conserve what I can.

Big picture I listen loud and max output of PB4000 is 107 at 16 Hz. I don't have two of them so really doing the work of two such subs in my room. I've hardly stressed the system yet with extreme BEQ with these subs working together and going much lower so I just need to listen. I don't have the auto BEQ settings running so a bit of a tax on my quickly sampling various movies, so this will take time and I'm thinking about gettings all those custom config files. One of my problems is I use one of my 10 minidsp slots to do my bass adjustments from 40 Hz and below for microphone inaccuracy. I need to watch more movies to determine what that setting should be permanently and then move it from where BEQ uses up to all ten of those Input PEQ settings. Its on the agenda, but I've got things outside of audio/video to get done before I go into Boss frenzy (drivers ordered last night and assembly begins in a week). I'm not sure how much Boss I can take given the high levels I like. Maybe I go so crazy with Boss that I don't need the PB4000, but as it stands its giving me more power handling with a big boost to extension.

Right now I'm a bit underwhelmed with the impact beyond power handling. I've achieve flatter bass. My last dual PB12 tune had a little bump at 22 Hz that gave the bass what I call a choclately sound, but then quickly dipping to -3 db at 19 Hz. This region is now really flat with the PB4000, but its not a quantum leap in performance in the audible range. I do hear a sonic impact with the greater extension, but overall its not making my day and I fear a long term fatigue factor. Right now on first listen the sound is more balanced with helps with that initial feeling of potential fatigue, but I'm not sure about flat down to 15 Hz not affecting me. I have a friend who had a massive 40 Hz spike in his (quite nice) two channel system. Other listeners could take a dose of bass heavy electronic, etc. music for long term and enjoy it. I had a flee factor and literally had to vacate the gathering and didn't listen for days. I certainly don't want to be triggering that with my video system. I got roasted a bit in BEQ thread for my hatred of the new Star Wars discs, but they seemed to be scratching my 40 Hz fear factor. I don't want to construct a great sounding system where I can't stand to watch a 2nd action movie in a row or the like because the utlralfe is making me more susceptible to 40 Hz sensitivity.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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Why are you holding on to that pb12? I told you it was gonna be a pain to get 2 diff subs with diff tunes to work together nicely. Just sell it and save for a 2nd pb4000
Agreed except I do have them working together nicely now, so another PB4000 would gain me like a .1% improvement in sound. I can't even get SVS to cork sniff on the excellencies of the PB4000. I'm just going to listen, evaluate, and keep measuring.

I'd love some thoughts on SVS's use of pure silver wire connection from Amp to driver and other nicities, but bottom line these are long wavelenghts I think it really comes down to the numbers.

-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought
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another PB4000 would gain me like a .1% improvement in sound.
You sound like a smart guy, much smarter than me, but i don't see such a small increase adding another. If thats the case you might as well return the pb4000 and go for 3 pb12-nsd's.
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post #22 of 22 Old Today, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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You sound like a smart guy, much smarter than me, but i don't see such a small increase adding another. If thats the case you might as well return the pb4000 and go for 3 pb12-nsd's.
Other options might be like dual Monoloth 12's or dual SVS 2000 Pro's. Dual Monolith 12's is nice, but I'll just go SVS for this other valid option. Two pros get me minimum 3db more and hopefully 2 hz more extension so maybe flat to 19 Hz with enought output. About $1725 with tax versus $1525 for the PB4000 deal I got. But assuming I can sell the PB12's for $425 locally the PB 2000's do the following:
1. Save me $225, but have to go through trouble of selling 2nd sub
2. Dual identical subs easier to setup
3. Cost me 5 hz in extension but might get me 1 db more output versus extended PB4000, but PB4000 in three port mode with PB12 would beat them both in output and extension.

Another PB4000 is just total overkill on the output and doubt it helps with extension. Mind you this setup I'm doing requires minidsp HD. A lot of people won't want to get that involved and then yes dual sub upgrade is the way to go.

At some point I'm probably going to try the single PB4000 midwall (don't have to move it) because I have more support down low so I can go as deep as possible with extended mode. I should be able to tame it reosonably well and I'll see if the PB4000 with its amp technology upgrade and silver wire and much more has some kind of cork sniffing advantage. If those subtle qualities really grab me then both PB12 go bye, bye and I'll do corner placement as you have directed. My output level would be pretty insane in the corner so no problems there and a slim hope that at 16 Hz and below the PB4000 gets down to at least 14 Hz flat.

The bass wars on in my abode with the boss platform project with the petal to the medal. I hope my ears can take it.
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-The single digits are where the magic lies.....they deliver a 'touch of god' sensation that sometimes makes the hairs on one's arms stand up. It's hard to describe but it feels like you are there in the recording studio with the artist and "feeling" them move as they are playing the instrument. You can't see them, but you can feel them as movements are happening on the floor below you. - trhought

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