Dual sub setup - 1 Large and 1 small. Advice/opnion needed - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 05-23-2020, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Dual sub setup - 1 Large and 1 small. Advice/opnion needed

Hi all,


I just got into the whole home cinema thing and I do like it a lot However I believe the system needs a bit more fine tuning. My sysem is: Denon AVR-X2600H | Q Acoustics 3050, 3090C, 3010 | BKElec Monolith Plus | SVS AS-EQ1


My current issue is missing that chest thump that I was expecting when I invested in the system.

So I had Q Acoustics 3070s laying around that wasn't doing anything and wanted to know if I could pair it up with my Monolith Plus. I am using SVS AS-EQ1 SubEQ to do all of the magic but I still ran quite a few tests. It would nicer to have a nice MIC with REW but with what I've got this is the best I could do.

So the subs on their own, placed in the best locations (Mono back of the room by the sofa, 3070s front right between center and right main):


As you can see the 3070 is no match for Monolith Plus. It bites the dust at 30Hz downwards and also can't do higher ranges either. Monolith plus will happily go below 20hz. However, the 3070s does not have a large dip around 60Hz range like the mono does.

So what if we combined them together?
I've tried multiple phase combinations on each sub, please pay attention to the trim as well (trim figure at the bottom), changing the phase does increase overall SPL by around +3dB when checking combined levels.









It's still early to say but it overall sounds good. It doesn't feel that 3070s is holding the Monolith back and 3070s itself is not being pushed that much either so it's not sounding boomey as it would on it's own when pushed too far.



Currently I am only using 1 sub output from the receiver and the SVS eq does he dual sub output thus the receiver for Audyssey only sees it as a single sub, I am wondering if it's worth doing it as a dual output from the receiver.



My other issue after level matching the subs the trim on audyssey gets set to +1dB (phase set to 0 on boths susbs) and I don't really want to be above 0dB, am I ok to just add more gain on the big sub and leave the smaller at is it? Any advice/opinion would be appreciated.

Denon AVR-X2600H | Q Acoustics 3050, 3090C, 3010 | BKElec Monolith Plus + XTZ 12.17 Edge| SVS AS-EQ1

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post #2 of 30 Old 05-23-2020, 06:00 PM
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what are you using to produce those graphs?

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post #3 of 30 Old 05-23-2020, 06:07 PM
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measuring/tweaking sound to be flat isnt recommended for best sound. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/eqloud.html

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post #4 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
what are you using to produce those graphs?
I'm using the SVS eq, it produces the graphs when it eqs the speakers


Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
measuring/tweaking sound to be flat isnt recommended for best sound. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/eqloud.html
The SVS EQ makes the sub response flat but then after running Audyssey calibration the Denon EQ is set to reference.

Also if I got this right if two subs are in phase and not cancelling eachother out there should be a level gain of +6dB

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post #5 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John24ssj View Post
Hi all,


I just got into the whole home cinema thing and I do like it a lot [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG] However I believe the system needs a bit more fine tuning. My sysem is: Denon AVR-X2600H | Q Acoustics 3050, 3090C, 3010 | BKElec Monolith Plus | SVS AS-EQ1


My current issue is missing that chest thump that I was expecting when I invested in the system.

So I had Q Acoustics 3070s laying around that wasn't doing anything and wanted to know if I could pair it up with my Monolith Plus. I am using SVS AS-EQ1 SubEQ to do all of the magic but I still ran quite a few tests. It would nicer to have a nice MIC with REW but with what I've got this is the best I could do.

So the subs on their own, placed in the best locations (Mono back of the room by the sofa, 3070s front right between center and right main):


As you can see the 3070 is no match for Monolith Plus. It bites the dust at 30Hz downwards and also can't do higher ranges either. Monolith plus will happily go below 20hz. However, the 3070s does not have a large dip around 60Hz range like the mono does.

So what if we combined them together?
I've tried multiple phase combinations on each sub, please pay attention to the trim as well (trim figure at the bottom), changing the phase does increase overall SPL by around +3dB when checking combined levels.









It's still early to say but it overall sounds good. It doesn't feel that 3070s is holding the Monolith back and 3070s itself is not being pushed that much either so it's not sounding boomey as it would on it's own when pushed too far.



Currently I am only using 1 sub output from the receiver and the SVS eq does he dual sub output thus the receiver for Audyssey only sees it as a single sub, I am wondering if it's worth doing it as a dual output from the receiver.



My other issue after level matching the subs the trim on audyssey gets set to +1dB (phase set to 0 on boths susbs) and I don't really want to be above 0dB, am I ok to just add more gain on the big sub and leave the smaller at is it? Any advice/opinion would be appreciated.
How many listening positions?
Dont forget those measurements are smoothed. I have one as well don't use it anymore due to can't be tweaked e.g house curve. But it worked well. If you look people saying "where has the bass gone". That chest slam is around the 50hz range.
What are your xovers?
Are they time aligned?
Did you find the best possible placement for the subs?
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post #6 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
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On SVS a ran 3 listening positions add the sofa only seats 3.
Yes I am aware those graphs are smoothed.

Crossovers:
Mains 80
Center 90
Surround 80
Height 100

Not sure about time alignment but Audyssey does all of that

For the main sub yes I did test multiple locations and I think it's at the best one where the dip in 50-70Hz range is the smallest
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The smaller sub I haven't tried as many locations

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post #7 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John24ssj View Post
On SVS a ran 3 listening positions add the sofa only seats 3.
Yes I am aware those graphs are smoothed.

Crossovers:
Mains 80
Center 90
Surround 80
Height 100

Not sure about time alignment but Audyssey does all of that

For the main sub yes I did test multiple locations and I think it's at the best one where the dip in 50-70Hz range is the smallest
Attachment 2731724
The smaller sub I haven't tried as many locations
With the experience I have had with Audyssey and YPAO they don't do a good job on time alignment. Both of these set my subwoofer to 7.25metres when the proper figure was 6.30metres. It leaves a significant dip in the xover handoff between the sub and mains.
I would seriously look at buying a UMIK-1 think about $70 mic and download REW.
Maybe take the SVS eq1 out of the line and re run the Denon. Looking at those corrections looks like there is a dip around the 50 mark which is highly smoothed.
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post #8 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Philips752 View Post
With the experience I have had with Audyssey and YPAO they don't do a good job on time alignment. Both of these set my subwoofer to 7.25metres when the proper figure was 6.30metres. It leaves a significant dip in the xover handoff between the sub and mains.
I would seriously look at buying a UMIK-1 think about $70 mic and download REW.
Maybe take the SVS eq1 out of the line and re run the Denon. Looking at those corrections looks like there is a dip around the 50 mark which is highly smoothed.

The distance measurement is not just a physical distance from the listening position to the speaker but the actual time it took for signal to get from the receiver to speakers and them to the mic. When I did a manual distance measurent it did not sound as good as auto calibration from Audyssey.


It does appear that I would need to get UMIK for more accurate mesurements withouth a large smoothing applied that I get from the SVS EQ.
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post #9 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John24ssj
Currently I am only using 1 sub output from the receiver and the SVS eq does he dual sub output thus the receiver for Audyssey only sees it as a single sub, I am wondering if it's worth doing it as a dual output from the receiver.
It will do nothing, X2600H has no SubEQ HT integrated (that will allow for dual sub calibration inside Audyssey - SubEQ HT first it measures each sub separately, then applies independent delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned. Then it pings them once more as "one" sub to derive the room correction filter). If those two subs are different (not identical) the weaker one will drag the other one down during the calibration as "one" sub.

X2600H has "two" sub outputs but with a Y connection inside - so electrically is just one output.

SubEQ HT is available only on models that have MultEQ XT32 (not MultEQ XT, like X2600H) - example X3500H, X3600H, X4500H, X6500H, etc.

MultEQ XT32 is quite different in its performance than the XT - XT32 has double the filter resolution for the subwoofer EQ than the XT - see the attachment.
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post #10 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 04:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
It will do nothing, X2600H has no SubEQ HT integrated (that will allow for dual sub calibration inside Audyssey - SubEQ HT first it measures each sub separately, then applies independent delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned. Then it pings them once more as "one" sub to derive the room correction filter). If those two subs are different (not identical) the weaker one will drag the other one down during the calibration as "one" sub.

X2600H has "two" sub outputs but with a Y connection inside - so electrically is just one output.

SubEQ HT is available only on models that have MultEQ XT32 (not MultEQ XT, like X2600H) - example X3500H, X3600H, X4500H, X6500H, etc.

MultEQ XT32 is quite different in its performance than the XT - XT32 has double the filter resolution for the subwoofer EQ than the XT - see the attachment.
Thank you for the useful info


If I understand it correctly the SVS AS EQ1 is based on MultEQ XT32?

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post #11 of 30 Old 05-24-2020, 06:01 AM
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Thank you for the useful info


If I understand it correctly the SVS AS EQ1 is based on MultEQ XT32?
Not XT32, just on an older MultEQ (non XT).

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Not XT32, just on an older MultEQ (non XT).

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I was wrong, sorry, the EQ-1 is in fact a derivative of the full Audyssey MultEQ XT.

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Originally Posted by John24ssj View Post
I'm using the SVS eq, it produces the graphs when it eqs the speakers

Yeah, I think those are predicted responses and not actual responses. You might want to use REW to see how the end result actually is. It may need tweaking.

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Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by John24ssj View Post
I'm using the SVS eq, it produces the graphs when it eqs the speakers

Yeah, I think those are predicted responses and not actual responses. You might want to use REW to see how the end result actually is. It may need tweaking.
Yes I just found that it as well. At least the first/before graph is the actual frequency response of the subs. Even if it's smoothed it can show issues with placement.

I guess my next goal is to find best placement for the smaller sub so it can help the big sub with its dip

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Thanks for the informative post. I'm considering the same thing.

Here's a post from Archimago (whom I'm a big fan of) about the same topic. He found that adding another sub, even if it's a different size & type, improves output flatness and audio performance.

MUSINGS / MEASUREMENTS: Multiple subwoofers to reduce nulls.
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/0...oofers-to.html
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post #16 of 30 Old 05-25-2020, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the informative post. I'm considering the same thing.

Here's a post from Archimago (whom I'm a big fan of) about the same topic. He found that adding another sub, even if it's a different size & type, improves output flatness and audio performance.

MUSINGS / MEASUREMENTS: Multiple subwoofers to reduce nulls.
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/0...oofers-to.html
Thank you for sharing that, it was a really good read!

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post #17 of 30 Old 05-25-2020, 05:33 AM
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Thank you for sharing that, it was a really good read!
I use the AS-EQ1 and having naively expected it (and Audyssey XT32) to solve everything experienced similar disappointment. Here are my thoughts/procedures based on my experience.

1. Run a single sub out of the receiver into the AS-EQ1 and set it to run 1 sub in - 2 subs out. Even if the sub outs on the receiver are discrete just use one sub out and let the AS-EQ1 handle the rest. More on this below

2. Get an app for your phone, a sound level meter or better yet a Umik and REW. Run and measure some sweeps. If you don't have a disk with sweeps you can download them or if you're using REW you can generate your own tones and sweeps with that.

Based on your graphs both at 0 phase seems to get the best (albeit smoothed) prediction so I'd leave that alone and run the AS-EQ1 calibration or verify those measurement by one of the other means I sugggested before proceeding. Unless of course you reposition one or both of the subs as you suggested you might to try to improve on the 50hz area. I would do measurements other than those provided by the AS-EQ1. As stated - it does not provide a measurement - but a "prediction". Best to verify what the actual results actually are.

3. Once you get your best combined measurement run the AS-EQ1 calibration. Now your subs via the AS-EQ1 are seen by your system as a single sub or sub group that you can time align from the receiver.

4. Run Audyssey


***The steps below are referred to as the Post Audyssey Sub Distance Tweak so if you're familiar with it just stop reading and do that. If not......

5. Assess the blend of mains/subs at and around the x-over. Audyssey has never gotten this part right for me. Adjust the sub distance on the receiver adding distance and remeasure until you get the best sub/mains blend at the x-over. There will be some back and forth here until you get to the optimal setting, then likely pass it and dial it back. I usually jump in 2' increments to get a bead on things and help me zero in and fine tune in the right range. The benefit of using the single sub out is two fold here.

a) You can adjust the delay of both subs with a single setting without altering the relationship between the 2 subs that you (and the As-EQ1) have worked to establish through level, phase and EQ.

b) I don't know if this would be an issue being that you do not have discrete sub outs and XT32 but for those like myself that do, and have used the dual discrete sub outs, Audyssey will "re-evaluate" the work you and the AS-EQ1 did to establish the right phase, distance and level settings. It can essentially throw all that work out the window and impose it's own will with unpredictable - potentially - usually inferior results. If Audyssey sees your subs/sub group as a single sub then all it tries to do is set levels, distance and (if XT32) EQ the "sub". In the case of XT32 the EQ can be helpful. In the case on both XT32 and other versions, it rarely gets the distance/delay correct in relation to the mains (thus the reason for the distance tweak). Many users also find they need to raise the sub level post Audyssey 2-6 db to get satisfying results - depending on taste and goals of course. It's a useful tool but these are 2 weak areas.

Not to bash Audyssey because I use and appreciate the EQ capabilities but it never yielded optimal results regarding time alignment of the mains & subs and I was disappointed for years. Since I started employing the distance tweak I have gotten better results and been much happier. I think you will be too regardless of whether your version of Audyssey EQ's the subs or not as the AS-EQ1 will already have done what it can there.

Keep us in the loop.
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post #18 of 30 Old 05-25-2020, 06:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Artzilla thank you for your response. I really do like SVS AS-EQ1 it has made a noticeable difference in my setup which I am happy about, however it does need some tweaking, not much but I would like to get it as perfect as I possibly can.
Due to others also making the same suggestion I have gone and bought a second hand UMIK-1 which I should be receiving in couple of days, with it I hope to see more accurate results. The SVS AS-EQ1 has paired the subs really well I found, I could not localise either of them or heard any issues overall with second small sub added. Some parts of the movies I like did sound slightly better I just feel that I could still fine tune this however.
I am doing exactly as you have mentioned as well running single RCA from my Denon to AS-EQ1 and then dual output into the subs. I would like to rely less on EQ itself and more on correct placement which hopefully I will be able to do now with the REW.
The blend of mains/sub is something I have not messed much with apart ignoring Audyssey values as it sets my mains to Large and the crossover to 40Hz, I mean the bass from 3050's is not bad actually quite surprisingly pleasant but there is no need to push them when the sub should be doing all of that low frequency heavy lifting.


Also is there an issue have both subs on the left hand side?I mean would I feel that the bass is coming more from the left if both subs are placed on the left? Running the room simulation on REW it does show that placing 3070s in front left corner would boost the mid frequencies which is what I am after. Sadly the Mono is quite large thus I don't have as many placement options and the from right is not possible as I go an opening into the dinning room area.
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Originally Posted by John24ssj View Post
Artzilla thank you for your response. I really do like SVS AS-EQ1 it has made a noticeable difference in my setup which I am happy about, however it does need some tweaking, not much but I would like to get it as perfect as I possibly can.
Due to others also making the same suggestion I have gone and bought a second hand UMIK-1 which I should be receiving in couple of days, with it I hope to see more accurate results. The SVS AS-EQ1 has paired the subs really well I found, I could not localise either of them or heard any issues overall with second small sub added. Some parts of the movies I like did sound slightly better I just feel that I could still fine tune this however.
I am doing exactly as you have mentioned as well running single RCA from my Denon to AS-EQ1 and then dual output into the subs. I would like to rely less on EQ itself and more on correct placement which hopefully I will be able to do now with the REW.
The blend of mains/sub is something I have not messed much with apart ignoring Audyssey values as it sets my mains to Large and the crossover to 40Hz, I mean the bass from 3050's is not bad actually quite surprisingly pleasant but there is no need to push them when the sub should be doing all of that low frequency heavy lifting.


Also is there an issue have both subs on the left hand side?I mean would I feel that the bass is coming more from the left if both subs are placed on the left? Running the room simulation on REW it does show that placing 3070s in front left corner would boost the mid frequencies which is what I am after. Sadly the Mono is quite large thus I don't have as many placement options and the from right is not possible as I go an opening into the dinning room area.
Well it sounds like you're off in the right direction. The Umik and REW are a powerful combination of tools to have in your arsenal and combined with patience and a strong back will allow you to get the subs placed and blended with each other better than most alternative means. You're also right to change the x-over and taking the low end load off your mains. This is another area you can measure and fine tune with REW after Audyssey for optimal results.

I do not know how having both subs on the left will behave in your room. I actually read something just a couple of days ago regarding dual subs placed at roughly 1/4 wall points on the right side of a room getting good results. Of course I can't remember the source but it was a professional study and not home users like us. Unorthodox to be sure but you never know until you try and measure. My room is such that even as I have it set up the room simulator is far off the results I have measured so I can't really speak to it's efficacy. If I go by the room simulator there is no placement option in my room for good bass from my subs. My room does have more than it's fair share of challenges though. See what it tells you - try it out and you can gauge how much to trust it.

Back to the AS-EQ1: It may or may not provide a night and day difference in the end but the most important thing to remember is the less it has to do the better. The better you get the 2 subs blended prior to running the AS-EQ1 calibration the better the results will be. You probably already know this but it only provides minor boosts for nulls and makes the more significant adjustments pulling down peaks in response. This is as it should be because you can't boost a room null. Focus on eliminating/minimizing those nulls with your placement and manual adjustments before running the AS-EQ1.

Also, both in using REW and when Running the AS-EQ1 and Audyssey calibrations experiment with your mic patterns. Some get better results with a tight grouping of placements (within 18" of the listening position). Others like myself find I get good results basically spanning the entire couch - but this was not the case for me in a previous room. Some folks even run the measurements from the MLP only - not moving the mic and swear by it. It's different for every one and you may even find that you use one placement pattern to get the subs dialed in with the AS-EQ1 and yet another pattern for Audyssey since the AS is handling only the lowest frequencies and Audyssey the rest of the spectrum.

I almost feel guilty opening that rabbit hole because it adds more, and potentially unnecessary variables so you may want to disregard the last part entirely unless you find you get poor results. I personally use a mix of mic placements but I have 2 subs run off on one processor output through the AS-EQ1 and a third running off the sub 2 output of the processor and letting Audyssey then EQ all 3. The research on the flaws in this approach is why I've been able to comment and that dual sub out usage is something I need to correct. When I get another 3 day weekend and build up enough street cred with the wife to get away with it I am probably going to get a minidsp and eliminate the AS-EQ1. This is currently the most control you can get over multiple subs (up to 4) at a modest price (approx $200 USD) and I am going to give it a go.

One last option: If you find you really get your subs dialed in well manually plus the AS-EQ1 alone, but they sound weaker after running Audyssey and doing the distance tweak you might try turning off the subs and running Audyssey on the speakers only. It will set your mains to full range and you'll have to adjust your x-overs etc but this will ensure that Audyssey does not interfere with the sub bass signal at all. Then do the distance tweak again and measure.

Best of Luck. Looking forward to seeing where you end up.
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post #20 of 30 Old 05-25-2020, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks I will keep you updated


Another newbie question I forgot to ask was about level matching and receiver trim. The AS-EQ1 gets me to level match the subs to 75dB and then in performs it's measurements. After running Audyssey the sub trim gets set +0.5dB. I usually like to add around +2dB to it but from what I've read everyone recommends to stay on the negative side and get the subs around -5dB after Audyssey and then add few dB to the sub.
So after AS-EQ1 runs it's calibration am I ok to level match to subs to 80dB and then run Audyssey so my trim would be on the negative side?

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post #21 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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So here is what I got.

Mono Plus locations average of 3 main listening positions no smoothing:



3070s Locations:



Best contenders overlayed:



And then overlaying the best of Mono and the best of 3070 independently seems to work really well:



I have not tested them combined yet just measured every single possible location for both of the subs.
What do you guys think?

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post #22 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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An update on current progress.
So here we go. After placing both subs in their locations and running SVS calibration I got this (no smoothing and no mains just the subs), I believe the moment I introduce the mains things will change:

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post #23 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by John24ssj View Post
An update on current progress.
So here we go. After placing both subs in their locations and running SVS calibration I got this (no smoothing and no mains just the subs), I believe the moment I introduce the mains things will change:

That looks great. Are you running 256k sweeps?

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
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post #24 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by badtlc View Post
That looks great. Are you running 256k sweeps?

Yes 256K.


But sadly the subs look quite good on their own but don't seem to integrate well with the left main at 80hz crossover.
Sub on with Left main cable unplugged:



Sub on with Left main cable plugged in:



Sub off with Left main cable plugged in:



All 3:



Does this look normal? There is now around 13db different between the lower and highest point when before I had it down to 3dB but that was 150Hz crossover with main unplugged

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post #25 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 02:19 PM
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sorry I am not much help at this point. I also have massive amount of difficulty to get my front towers to blend with my sub properly.

Front: Polk S55
Center: Polk S30
Rear: Polk S10
Sub: P̶L̶-̶2̶0̶0̶I̶I̶ | (̶2̶)̶ ̶F̶V̶X̶1̶2̶ | V1812
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post #26 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Seems like a hard thing to do


Some further results:
Left Main + No Sub


Left Main + Sub


Right main + No Sub


Right main + Sub


Left main VS Right main No Sub



Running both speakers:
Left main+Right main+No Sub


Left main+Right main+Sub



And then just to actually see if the crossover is working

Left main+Right man+No Sub 80Hz vs Left main+Right man+No Sub 150Hz



Is Denon ignoring my crossover settings?


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post #27 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 03:31 PM
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Measure the Mains on the Large setting so you can see the response without the influence of the crossover. I suspect your speakers have a huge peak just above 40 Hz.

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post #28 of 30 Old 05-27-2020, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Measure the Mains on the Large setting so you can see the response without the influence of the crossover. I suspect your speakers have a huge peak just above 40 Hz.

Well this is an utter disappointment with denon if this is truly what the crossover does because I don't think it really does anything.

Mains set to large vs 150Hz crossover vs 80Hz crossover:



Why with crossover set to 150Hz is put pumping out so much to the mains??? With crossover set to 80Hz when compared to the sub at 40Hz mains are louder than the sub:

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post #29 of 30 Old 05-28-2020, 02:09 AM - Thread Starter
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So this is my final run. Left + Right mains with dual subs and I plugged the port bungs into the mains which have helped with the peak at 40H a bit. Denon EQ set to reference, Crossover at 80Hz:



I am really happy with 15Hz to 50hz range and it's within 5dB range But 50Hz onwards looks like a disaster

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post #30 of 30 Old 05-30-2020, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John24ssj View Post
I am really happy with 15Hz to 50hz range and it's within 5dB range But 50Hz onwards looks like a disaster
You should be happy! Q Acoustics 3050 uncontrollable bass without bungs is well known, apparently.
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