Would you spend $1k plus for a sub without MFR/third party tested output data/gragh? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Would you spend $1k plus for a sub without MFR/third party tested output data/graph?
Yes 26 50.98%
No 25 49.02%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Would you spend $1k plus for a sub without MFR/third party tested output data/graph?

Would you spend $1k plus for a sub without MFR/third party tested output data and graph? Curious to know the percentage. Thanks.

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post #2 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 07:04 PM
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No. No MFR graphs = no buy. Period.

Without seeing the graph, you're not going to know that your expensive subwoofer has the world's most extreme high pass filter, and despite XZY tuning frequency is actually 6 or 8dB down at the tuning frequency making any attempt to compare with similar subs impossible.

Not posting the measurement graphs is PURE lying by omission; because you know damn well the data is there from when the sub was being tuned.
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post #3 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 07:40 PM
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It certainly helps in the decision-making process but so does the reputation of the company.
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post #4 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Grove View Post
It certainly helps in the decision-making process but so does the reputation of the company.
A reputable company has nothing to hide. Not showing graphs is hiding things.
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MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.

Espon 5050UB, 120" screen, AppleTV4k, Harmony Elite, Sony UBP-X700, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX504, Outlaw 7000x, MiniDSP 2x4HD, 2x HSU TN1220HO subs, 2x HSU VTF-15H Mk2 subs, Defintive Technology speakers: CLR2002 x3 for FR, C, FL; BP2x SR & SL; BP1.2x SBL & SBR; ProMonitor 800 x4 height speakers.
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post #5 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 08:51 PM
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This reminds me of a older thread.

Still a very good question, if someone would spend over $1k on a sub that doesn't have 3rd party testing...

It's like buying a car without a nurburgring lap time.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...data-bass.html
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post #6 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 09:06 PM
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I'm more concerned by manufacturers that won't post a FR graph of their own products. 3rd party tests are nice verification, but it's fishy as all hell when the manufacturer doesn't post a graph of their product...

MiniDSP 2x4HD, UMIK-1, REW... The holy trinity for running multiple subs.

Espon 5050UB, 120" screen, AppleTV4k, Harmony Elite, Sony UBP-X700, Pioneer Elite VSX-LX504, Outlaw 7000x, MiniDSP 2x4HD, 2x HSU TN1220HO subs, 2x HSU VTF-15H Mk2 subs, Defintive Technology speakers: CLR2002 x3 for FR, C, FL; BP2x SR & SL; BP1.2x SBL & SBR; ProMonitor 800 x4 height speakers.
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post #7 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 09:11 PM
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Good point, they might be selling you a inferior product or worse... a counterfeit product.
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post #8 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 09:46 PM
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measurements dont tell me how something sounds. I need lots of feedback/reviews or listening time.
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post #9 of 35 Old 06-02-2020, 11:26 PM
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I would like to say I wouldn't...but in reality I did buy my Seaton's prior to its third party testing (though Mark did post a GP FR graph many years ago on his forum)
That said, I had listened to the SubMersive many times prior to purchasing, so I knew it was what I was after SQ and output-wise, and have read sooooooo many user reviews and GTG results where the SubMersive more than lived up to its stellar reputation, the fact that it often went toe-to-toe,usually exchanging 1sts and 2nds, with various JTR Captivators also helped make the decision to take a risk a lot easier for me.
This worked out for me, but I can definitely see how this could result in buyers ending up disappointed in the performance of a sub, especially when a manufacturer's provided +/-3dB specs can be a bit confusing.

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post #10 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 12:28 AM
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Yeah, I have no problems with it for a few reasons. I look at the drivers being used and what they are capable of. I look at the size of the box and the port tuning if applicable. I then look at customer reactions and general satisfaction or dissatisfaction in the manufacturer's thread. I look for professional reviews for further opinions. If they have a trial period where I can listen to it and return it or trade it in if I don't like it, then it's a non issue. The real deal for me in a small room is more about how low can it go and how does it sound quality wise. If it can match my expectations then I'll keep it. Output numbers can help inform the buyer but they are not the "be all" of what is going on or weather or not a sub will work for me. I do think it's a good thing to have numbers available to the public before a sub goes on sale though. If there is no trial period or a decent warranty then that raises more of a red flag than output numbers.
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post #11 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 04:34 AM
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Absent the ideal scenario of data and graphs from a reputable third party, I would be more likely to buy from a reputable company that didn't have data and graphs of its newer products (e.g., PSA) than to buy a product with questionable data and graphs supplied by the manufacturer - e.g., B&W's ultra-compact, dual 8" PV1D subwoofer, whose published FR specs:
- in 2014 were an amusing 7.5-450Hz +/-3dB;
- in 2020 are a different-but-still-amusing 64-23kHz +/-3dB (PDF).

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post #12 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 06:25 AM
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A few months ago, I would have said no to this. But now I will say yes, because I did.

The measurements really don't mean squat when it comes to how it will perform in your room. When you buy from a quality manufacturer you are going to get a sub with a flat response down to the posted -3dB data point. You really need to test drive any sub you are interested in regardless of data available. Even if the data fits your eye that doesn't mean the sound signature will.

Personally, I'd rather buy an unknown sub to me from a reputable dealer that has a super easy and affordable return policy. I'm not going to know if I like it until I try it.
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post #13 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 06:53 AM
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I said yes because... DIY...

that really feels like a different option though...
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post #14 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 07:16 AM
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I have bought subs with and without measurements, so I have to say yes, though I greatly prefer having measurements available. When I purchased my current car, it was beneficial for me to know that the manufacturer was not overstating power figures and that the car could do 0-60 in 4.5s and the quarter mile in under 13s, allowing me to focus on the non-quantifiable aspects when I test drove the car. With a sub, it's good to have a baseline expectation for its performance so that the effects of the room can be more easily separated from the sub's intrinsic characteristics
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post #15 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 11:00 AM
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Well tons of people buy SVS subs with their useless frequency response graphs that they post on their website.
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post #16 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djdanny View Post
Well tons of people buy SVS subs with their useless frequency response graphs that they post on their website.
Well SVS also send almost ALL their subs out for third party reviews from reputable websites that give tonnes of objective (and subjective) information, and usually not too long after the products are released.
Audioholics have reviewed the PC2000,PB and SB3000,PB4000 (and SB13U and PB13U),SB16Ultra and PB16 ultra. Soundstage has done a review of the PB2000 Pro.
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post #17 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Great discussions. I can see everyone points.
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post #18 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 11:54 AM
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I would never consider spending > $1000 per sub w/o 3rd party CEA-2010 data, unless the said sub is of a newer version of a previously tested product.

For example, I have no problem with 2020 JTR Captivators.
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post #19 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 12:04 PM
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Maybe upto 200 usd, for a secondary system like in a setup in the patio or garden. Generally those would start rolling off at about 40Hz or below. They would be perfect for music. Definitely not for dedicated home theater.

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post #20 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Well SVS also send almost ALL their subs out for third party reviews from reputable websites that give tonnes of objective (and subjective) information, and usually not too long after the products are released.
Audioholics have reviewed the PC2000,PB and SB3000,PB4000 (and SB13U and PB13U),SB16Ultra and PB16 ultra. Soundstage has done a review of the PB2000 Pro.
Not to mention, Josh has tested several as well...
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post #21 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 08:39 PM
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Not to mention, Josh has tested several as well...
Yes, though I think when Josh tested them it was for/in conjunction with Audioholics anyway
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post #22 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiebosco View Post
Yes, though I think when Josh tested them it was for/in conjunction with Audioholics anyway
That may be true... I can’t remember and really only mentioned because there’s testing....


And there’s what josh does.... which essentially amounts to trying to destroy the thing. Surviving his testing intact is an accomplishment!

Like em or not, Svs subs are well designed. They don’t do anything funky, don’t have weird harmonics or resonances, or excessive group delay/distortion. I don’t tend to get into discussions about whether they are better than other commercial subs or not... I have 20 JBL’s waiting for custom enclosures in the new theatre build... 😀

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post #23 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
I would never consider spending > $1000 per sub w/o 3rd party CEA-2010 data, unless the said sub is of a newer version of a previously tested product.

For example, I have no problem with 2020 JTR Captivators.
welllll... thats how i got the PSA v1800, because i previously had some older sealed PSA that tested good on databass for the price and whatnot, even tho the PSA v1800 was not tested i said eh what the hell, its not like they would mess it up ... lol yeah that turned out well.

made/assembled wherever i dont give a hoot. now i aint givin my money/"credits" without number proof and auditioning.

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post #24 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bulls View Post
welllll... thats how i got the PSA v1800, because i previously had some older sealed PSA that tested good on databass for the price and whatnot, even tho the PSA v1800 was not tested i said eh what the hell, its not like they would mess it up ... lol yeah that turned out well.

made/assembled wherever i dont give a hoot. now i aint givin my money/"credits" without number proof and auditioning.
Hey, at least you found out they are not for you within the 30 day in home trial period.

Imagine if you have to sell them and deal with low ballers... LOL...

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post #25 of 35 Old 06-03-2020, 11:42 PM
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lol true true do thank for the in home trial indeed

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post #26 of 35 Old 06-04-2020, 08:56 AM
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Another question should be "How many people really understand the graphs , waterfalls , charts , etc etc?" I know I dont lol....Could I understand them? Probably...Do I want to put the effort in to get a better understanding of what I am looking at? Nope....Would I feel nervous buying a Rythmik , JTR , Seaton , DSS , Funk , SVS , PSA? Nope....There are a lot of people on this forum that have a ton of knowledge and need charts and numbers and really spend the time perfecting things...I kind of feel like this forum is the MIT of audio/video , but I am just the HS dropout saying "I jus wan big ting go Boom Boom , make window rattle" Heavy Breathing.....
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post #27 of 35 Old 06-04-2020, 09:59 AM
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Cool

For me, what's a 1000 dollar sub vs a 500 dollar sub via the most popular mfg's? Is it a 10, 12 or 15"? In a room size 10 X 12 foot. Would I need a 1000 dollar sub and notice any real difference having a 500 dollar msrp? What determines the price for a 1000 dollar sub vs a 500 dollar one and any difference in sound quality to MY EARS???? Say, SVS, Klipsch, Yamaha, Paradigm for example??
Which would be the best for 1000 dollar msrp? Would a 500 dollar one do just as well in my room? I say the $500.00 would be just great.

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post #28 of 35 Old 06-04-2020, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teetertotter View Post
For me, what's a 1000 dollar sub vs a 500 dollar sub via the most popular mfg's? Is it a 10, 12 or 15"? In a room size 10 X 12 foot. Would I need a 1000 dollar sub and notice any real difference having a 500 dollar msrp? What determines the price for a 1000 dollar sub vs a 500 dollar one and any difference in sound quality to MY EARS???? Say, SVS, Klipsch, Yamaha, Paradigm for example??
Which would be the best for 1000 dollar msrp? Would a 500 dollar one do just as well in my room? I say the $500.00 would be just great.

if you are asking about sub advice, it might be better to start a new thread and provide all the relevant information there. Provide the room volume (not square footage), room construction materials (wall and floor types), listening volumes, listening content (movies, music, both?), anything you would consider or not consider and your target and/or worst case budget for a subwoofer.

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post #29 of 35 Old 06-04-2020, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trickyrickyzerko View Post
I agree, I'm not gonna buy a car without a test drive.
Yes, but does it really have to be either or!? Why can I not have both...a great consumer report rating, maybe a Kelly blue book rating and then a test drive! Why not have a subwoofer that measures well AND has a very good return policy (although return shipping on a big subwoofer will have some pain associated!).

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Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only, Integra AV receiver
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post #30 of 35 Old 06-05-2020, 12:54 PM
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While I don't need 3rd party testing, it is difficult to make an informed decision without at least having manufacturer posted measurements. Although I voted no, I would consider purchasing from a company with a proven track record.

Electronics: Denon X4400, Vizio M65
Sub: Rythmik FV18-PC x 2
Speakers: 3 x Chane A2.4 LCR, DIYSG Volt-6 Surrounds
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