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post #7081 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 12:43 AM
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Clearly the F113 are the best , but I am surprised how close the E112 audio specs are to F113 at the low end :

E112
22-118 Hz (+/- 1.5db)
-3 dB 21 / 120 Hz
-10dB 17 / 153 Hz

F113v2:
20-86 Hz (+/- 1.5db)
-3 dB 18 / 127 Hz
-10dB 16 / 154 Hz

Will the extra 3 Hz lower (at -3dB point) really make that much difference In SpL in my room size ? I am surprised these specs are so close , yet the F113 costs 4x the price !? Am I missing something ?


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post #7082 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 09:49 AM
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JLA makes a great product BUT they have increased the price 30% + in the past 6-7 years. I sent you a PM check it out!

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post #7083 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Clearly the F113 are the best , but I am surprised how close the E112 audio specs are to F113 at the low end :

E112
22-118 Hz (+/- 1.5db)
-3 dB 21 / 120 Hz
-10dB 17 / 153 Hz

F113v2:
20-86 Hz (+/- 1.5db)
-3 dB 18 / 127 Hz
-10dB 16 / 154 Hz

Will the extra 3 Hz lower (at -3dB point) really make that much difference In SpL in my room size ? I am surprised these specs are so close , yet the F113 costs 4x the price !? Am I missing something ?


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Sound quality is on another level. Also a lot more output at those frequencies. Not to mention better fit and finish, built in EQ, etc...

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post #7084 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Clearly the F113 are the best , but I am surprised how close the E112 audio specs are to F113 at the low end :

E112
22-118 Hz (+/- 1.5db)
-3 dB 21 / 120 Hz
-10dB 17 / 153 Hz

F113v2:
20-86 Hz (+/- 1.5db)
-3 dB 18 / 127 Hz
-10dB 16 / 154 Hz

Will the extra 3 Hz lower (at -3dB point) really make that much difference In SpL in my room size ? I am surprised these specs are so close , yet the F113 costs 4x the price !? Am I missing something ?


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Don't judge a speaker by specs alone. Best thing is go audition them and quickly you will see.

My bro originally wanted to save and get the E series sub but when he actually heard the F series, he opted for the F112.

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post #7085 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
Clearly the F113 are the best , but I am surprised how close the E112 audio specs are to F113 at the low end :

E112
22-118 Hz (+/- 1.5db)
-3 dB 21 / 120 Hz
-10dB 17 / 153 Hz

F113v2:
20-86 Hz (+/- 1.5db)
-3 dB 18 / 127 Hz
-10dB 16 / 154 Hz

Will the extra 3 Hz lower (at -3dB point) really make that much difference In SpL in my room size ? I am surprised these specs are so close , yet the F113 costs 4x the price !? Am I missing something ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A heavily eq'd response at low levels tells you very little about a subwoofers real capability. Most decent sealed subs can have high levels of eq applied so that very low level fr sweeps make them appear to be flat to whatever frequency.

This does not help much in the real world if the sub hits its output limit during a movie watched at -25 MV.


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post #7086 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 02:11 PM
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Yeah, those specs obviously aren't telling the whole story. The Fathoms have been extensively measured and reviewed, always receiving praise for ample clean output throughout their rated range. Corners had to be cut in the E series, so they can continue to sell the F series. Perhaps irrelevant, but the F112 weighs at least 30% more than the E112 (actual weight of my F112 version 1 is just under 100 lbs, although the specs claimed 115 or so - likely the shipping weight).
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post #7087 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 02:58 PM
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Yeah, those specs obviously aren't telling the whole story. The Fathoms have been extensively measured and reviewed, always receiving praise for ample clean output throughout their rated range. Corners had to be cut in the E series, so they can continue to sell the F series. Perhaps irrelevant, but the F112 weighs at least 30% more than the E112 (actual weight of my F112 version 1 is just under 100 lbs, although the specs claimed 115 or so - likely the shipping weight).
Agreed. I have been using F113s in my main system. However, I just ordered a pair of E110s in the hope that they will suit my other system where I do not need JL's EQ and the room is much smaller.

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post #7088 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 05:55 PM
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Fit and finish second to none. Tons of "grunt" for a small box too.

The price has gotten a bit top heavy over the years.

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post #7089 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 06:11 PM
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Love my F113 vs 2!!!!
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post #7090 of 7193 Old 03-18-2016, 06:13 PM
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Has anyone done a side by side comparison of e112 vs f112 (or f113) performance ?


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post #7091 of 7193 Old 03-19-2016, 06:09 AM
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I had a long term demo of an e112 and also heard the f113 and e112 in the same room. The f113 is a very clean sounding sub and appears to have solid output. The e112 is quite nice sounding, yet seemed subjectively a little less defined/powerful to me. The F113 had not been eq'ed in that room. The displacement advantage is to my ears obvious. But that's just me.

In the end, the e112 was like throwing a pea at a drum in my very over large space. I ordered a Funk Audio 21.0 - which is utterly devastating on every level. But that's what one of the strongest magnet motors around, 5kw of power RMS and really nice displacement will do. Obviously it's on a whole other level, but this was required for my space. But that in no way diminishes how impressed I was with the e and f series JLA. The the F113 absolutely CRUSHED a the new Sunfire 12 (sorry can't remember the model it's the newest one for them) but that's what I started listening to...I was fine with it until I asked to hear the F113. Never bothered with the Sunfire again. It was that much better. JLA knows how to build subs. The prices are hard to swallow though, in Canada. But you can get great deals on the e series if you ask around. If the sub fits your space, the either one would be amazing. I would most certainly consider 2 e112's - if you have to have JL - especially if you can get a really nice discount on the e's.

Also, once you start looking at multiples, one should consider options like funk. 2 f113 while nice, should be price shopped against other retailers. I don't need to tell you the 21" has more displacement (including X max) than 2 f113's.

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post #7092 of 7193 Old 03-19-2016, 06:28 AM
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Agree on cost, I got both my F112s from eBay for around $1100 each (took a LOT of patience). Couldn't imagine paying anywhere near MSRP.
I required the size and classy looks of these subs, but I know there are now other options out there in the compact sealed category that supposedly can compete for a lot less $$$ (advantage = internet direct).
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post #7093 of 7193 Old 03-20-2016, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post
Agree on cost, I got both my F112s from eBay for around $1100 each (took a LOT of patience). Couldn't imagine paying anywhere near MSRP.
I required the size and classy looks of these subs, but I know there are now other options out there in the compact sealed category that supposedly can compete for a lot less $$$ (advantage = internet direct).
That's a superb deal. I'd be very happy with 2 x F112's great subs. Great sound. I'm more of a value oriented guy, which doesn't add up to the cheapest price, but the best a person can get for a given dollar figure, so it goes across Price points. So an 8k sub can be a superb value depending on ones needs, desires etc. And 1100 a piece for F112's is certainly something to be proud of. That's just superb. By any measure you got a thunderingly good deal! Not to mention, the floor space you have saved with those subs...

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post #7094 of 7193 Old 03-20-2016, 10:31 PM
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OK, I've pretty much decided if I do go with a JL Audio subwoofer, I will avoid buyers regret and go with two F113v2 which will better fill my space. I love JL audio, its history and top-quality reputation.

But this is a big investment ($4500 USD x2), so I am scoping out its competition (i.e. sealed subs in this price range). There are some, like the SVS SB13 Ultra, which are a lot cheaper but significantly under-perform especially in regards to power at <25 Hz (its closer to E112). I need to fill 3600 cubic feet at THX reference (115 dB peaks).

But what about the Funk 18? This has IMPRESSIVE benchmarks (see CEA-2010 measurements below), and is priced cheaper ($3060 USD). It is strange that I cannot find ONE CEA2010 benchmark for the F113 (even the 7 year old V1).. But my sense is the Funk will markedly outperform the F113 based on these results (105db @ 20 HZ!) perhaps due to its larger displacement (18" vs 13.5" driver) and more powerful amp (4200W vs 3000W, RMS peak).

Don't get me wrong - there's a reason I am posting this in a JLA thread. I want to be convinced to go with the F113's ! There is an inherent value to JLA (resale), possibly better warranty/support (larger company and distribution chain), and perhaps more creative design (7 US patents in the JLA)... But at the end of the day not sure this is enough to convince me.
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post #7095 of 7193 Old 03-21-2016, 07:22 AM
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I don't recall ever seeing such data for the Fathoms, but it's been many years since I've been looking. Maybe the CEA-2010 standard was simply too new at the time of the Fathom line's initial release (~2006)? Most of the detailed testing occurred within a few years of that, possibly prior to widespread adoption (or maybe it was simply a marketing decision). Doesn't look like there's been the same intense push to review and measure the v2s, so you may not find the answer you seek. Like I said, it may be difficult for a company like JLA to compete with the newer internet-direct companies. The bang for the buck is typically in their favor. The F113 has a pretty aggressive rolloff in the infrasonic to protect the relatively small driver, so it clearly wouldn't compete well below 20Hz. As for the overall quality of the sound versus a much larger (and some might say potentially less "articulate") driver, I suspect only a proper A/B test in the same room would offer any insight. Remember also that your comparing a nearly 60% larger sub (by volume), requiring over 40% more floor space, and clearly one of JLA's design goals was to minimize the amount of space the Fathoms would occupy. If physical size is not a priority, I think you should consider broadening your search.

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post #7096 of 7193 Old 03-21-2016, 08:39 AM
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If I did not already own Fathom F113's, I would considering buying the Funk subs. I have no plans on selling my JL Audio subs. The Funk sub forum I followed for a some time to read the feedback of the owners. It does require some careful setup, and does not have the EQ function that the JL sub has built into it.
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post #7097 of 7193 Old 03-21-2016, 02:33 PM
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post #7098 of 7193 Old 03-21-2016, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
OK, I've pretty much decided if I do go with a JL Audio subwoofer, I will avoid buyers regret and go with two F113v2 which will better fill my space. I love JL audio, its history and top-quality reputation.

But this is a big investment ($4500 USD x2), so I am scoping out its competition (i.e. sealed subs in this price range). There are some, like the SVS SB13 Ultra, which are a lot cheaper but significantly under-perform especially in regards to power at <25 Hz (its closer to E112). I need to fill 3600 cubic feet at THX reference (115 dB peaks).

But what about the Funk 18? This has IMPRESSIVE benchmarks (see CEA-2010 measurements below), and is priced cheaper ($3060 USD). It is strange that I cannot find ONE CEA2010 benchmark for the F113 (even the 7 year old V1).. But my sense is the Funk will markedly outperform the F113 based on these results (105db @ 20 HZ!) perhaps due to its larger displacement (18" vs 13.5" driver) and more powerful amp (4200W vs 3000W, RMS peak).

Don't get me wrong - there's a reason I am posting this in a JLA thread. I want to be convinced to go with the F113's ! There is an inherent value to JLA (resale), possibly better warranty/support (larger company and distribution chain), and perhaps more creative design (7 US patents in the JLA)... But at the end of the day not sure this is enough to convince me.
The Funk 18.0 Master Slave pair will crush 2 F113V2's - one 18 has as much surface area as two 13" actually about a half inch more or so. Factor in having 2 18.0's and you are playing in a completely different league. The Funks cost less, but you also get the option of finishes if you want to go crazy, or a seemingly growing number of standard finishes. Also you can get gloss black, gloss white...or anything you want if you want to pay extra.

You would have 4.8kw of amplification for the two subs. Independent PEQ DSP's.

Anyhow. Sorry to wax poetic. But it's worth looking into. the 18.0 is capable of single digit extension and ridiculously low distortion. It's truly a beautiful sub. X2 it's just ridiculous. Frankly I found 1 ridiculous.
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post #7099 of 7193 Old 03-22-2016, 01:26 PM
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The Funk 18.0 Master Slave pair will crush 2 F113V2's - one 18 has as much surface area as two 13" actually about a half inch more or so. Factor in having 2 18.0's and you are playing in a completely different league.
I would not use the word "crush". For its size, the JL F113 is really amazing. I was lucky that my wife let me move my F113 (ver 1) into our bedroom system and I am very happy with the performance. Now for the theater, I moved up to 4 Seaton F18s (2 master/2 Slave) in which the difference between 4 18" subs and 2 13" may very well need a verb like crush to describe the difference.


So far I have only tested one of each sub in my bedroom.


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post #7100 of 7193 Old 03-22-2016, 01:42 PM
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what level of spl are these JL subs providing? 110/115/120.....higher?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5 Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #7101 of 7193 Old 03-22-2016, 01:46 PM
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I would not use the word "crush". For its size, the JL F113 is really amazing. I was lucky that my wife let me move my F113 (ver 1) into our bedroom system and I am very happy with the performance. Now for the theater, I moved up to 4 Seaton F18s (2 master/2 Slave) in which the difference between 4 18" subs and 2 13" may very well need a verb like crush to describe the difference.


So far I have only tested one of each sub in my bedroom.


I stand by "crush". Physics catches up to the F113. Crush also includes single digit extension from the Funk Audio 18.0's. Nothing incorrect about this statement. Crush would also include a value proposition. I'm not one for hyperbole, but this is a fair use of the word crush.

BTW, nice setup with four f18's - that's going to be incredible. Congrats.

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post #7102 of 7193 Old 03-22-2016, 02:43 PM
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OK, I've pretty much decided if I do go with a JL Audio subwoofer, I will avoid buyers regret and go with two F113v2 which will better fill my space. I love JL audio, its history and top-quality reputation.

But this is a big investment ($4500 USD x2), so I am scoping out its competition (i.e. sealed subs in this price range). There are some, like the SVS SB13 Ultra, which are a lot cheaper but significantly under-perform especially in regards to power at <25 Hz (its closer to E112). I need to fill 3600 cubic feet at THX reference (115 dB peaks).

But what about the Funk 18? This has IMPRESSIVE benchmarks (see CEA-2010 measurements below), and is priced cheaper ($3060 USD). It is strange that I cannot find ONE CEA2010 benchmark for the F113 (even the 7 year old V1).. But my sense is the Funk will markedly outperform the F113 based on these results (105db @ 20 HZ!) perhaps due to its larger displacement (18" vs 13.5" driver) and more powerful amp (4200W vs 3000W, RMS peak).

Don't get me wrong - there's a reason I am posting this in a JLA thread. I want to be convinced to go with the F113's ! There is an inherent value to JLA (resale), possibly better warranty/support (larger company and distribution chain), and perhaps more creative design (7 US patents in the JLA)... But at the end of the day not sure this is enough to convince me.
I think it was @heinrich that mentioned this in another thread, but the 18.0 had a highpass filter enabled (by accident?) during testing. The measurements people are getting paint an even better picture with the high pass filter disabled and a low shelf filter in place. Very flat response to single digits. Certainly correct, careful setup is recommended but certainly rewarded. The ALLDSP PEQ is very powerful. Also it's running a killer high bit processor, so it never gets in the way.
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post #7103 of 7193 Old 04-03-2016, 10:54 AM
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So this weekend I have been testing minimizing rattles and such in my office where I use a f113 version 1. Yesterday I ordered the SVS soundpath isolation system on amazon and I had some shipping foam left over and put that under my fathom. Big difference and it made me happy with the improvements. Essentially, my door and windows are no longer rattling and such. The soundpaths came in a day early and I just installed them. They essentially do what the foam did but obviously look a lot better and same results, the window and door rattling and the vibration on the floor has been noticeably minimized. If you guys haven't tried any form of isolation I highly suggest you do. Go with a cheap option to see if it's something that you like before you spend money though. My question to you all is in my family room where I have another fathom. It's carpeted on a concrete slab. Does it makes sense to use just the spikes or isolate that as well? I will try that out as well.
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post #7104 of 7193 Old 04-10-2016, 08:21 PM
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After a lot of research, I decided to spend the extra money for 2 x JL Audio Fathom f113 (v2) subs. Love their compact size, great finish, and ability to blow away much larger subs (ex Velodyne DD18).
Will post pictures soon!
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post #7105 of 7193 Old 04-11-2016, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
OK, I've pretty much decided if I do go with a JL Audio subwoofer, I will avoid buyers regret and go with two F113v2 which will better fill my space. I love JL audio, its history and top-quality reputation.

But this is a big investment ($4500 USD x2), so I am scoping out its competition (i.e. sealed subs in this price range). There are some, like the SVS SB13 Ultra, which are a lot cheaper but significantly under-perform especially in regards to power at <25 Hz (its closer to E112). I need to fill 3600 cubic feet at THX reference (115 dB peaks).

But what about the Funk 18? This has IMPRESSIVE benchmarks (see CEA-2010 measurements below), and is priced cheaper ($3060 USD). It is strange that I cannot find ONE CEA2010 benchmark for the F113 (even the 7 year old V1).. But my sense is the Funk will markedly outperform the F113 based on these results (105db @ 20 HZ!) perhaps due to its larger displacement (18" vs 13.5" driver) and more powerful amp (4200W vs 3000W, RMS peak).

Don't get me wrong - there's a reason I am posting this in a JLA thread. I want to be convinced to go with the F113's ! There is an inherent value to JLA (resale), possibly better warranty/support (larger company and distribution chain), and perhaps more creative design (7 US patents in the JLA)... But at the end of the day not sure this is enough to convince me.
JL is a great company, and Manville is friend of mine, so I will say that you can't go wrong with the F113, which we all know is a great sounding sub. However, if you want options, you might also consider the Seaton Sound stuff. For your proposed $9000 budget, I think you could put together a VERY high performance system. Contact Mark at his e-mail address and see what's available.

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post #7106 of 7193 Old 04-11-2016, 07:30 AM
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...you might also consider the Seaton Sound stuff. For your proposed $9000 budget, I think you could put together a VERY high performance system. Contact Mark at his e-mail address and see what's available.
If you scroll up, you'll see we've been over Seaton (and similar) alternatives. Many of which are physically much larger, however Seaton has recently released the modular Submersive (F18) which appears to address that (although can't say that I find the aesthetics to be quite comparable).
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post #7107 of 7193 Old 04-21-2016, 07:52 PM
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Just put up my F113 v1 for sale in the classifieds. I hope it can find a good home to someone here.


FS: JL Audio Fathom F113 satin Subwoofer
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post #7108 of 7193 Old 06-08-2016, 01:58 PM
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Is the F113 v2 THAT much better than the F113 v1? Is it only the eq that's the difference?
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post #7109 of 7193 Old 07-07-2016, 11:42 AM
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I need to add a sub to my system and I know it's gonna be a JL Audio subwoofer.

A few questions for owners:

1. Do I use the equalization from JL Audio if I'm using this with an Anthem MRX 720 system and am using their room equalization?
2. If I'm not using their equalization is there an advantage to the v2 series subwoofers over the v1?
3. Is the eSub sonically different from the f-xxx? I was thinking of getting two e-subs over the f- series.

R-S
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post #7110 of 7193 Old 07-07-2016, 12:21 PM
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For number 1, I'd try it both ways and decide for myself. From what I've read, the v2's room correction is pretty advanced, but very plug-and-play (no customization). Can't comment on Anthem's room correction, but if it's similarly capable, then you might be better off just disabling JL's correction.


I don't think you're going to find solid answers to 2 and 3. While the v1 subs were extensively measured and compared, there is very little out there on the v2 and eSub. My impression is that the proliferation of bigger and more powerful subs seems to have left JL Audio to more of a niche market these days.
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