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post #30451 of 33546 Old 02-09-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
Hi Demetri,

I second Mike's recommendations, very level headed guy and he knows way more than I do

I have a small room, 1,100 cuft so bookshelves were my choice. My first pair of Ultra BSs were full price but the last 4 were picked up in the Outlet section, one at a time, and saved me some money. I could have saved more with the Primes but I didn't want the hassle of selling them later plus I figured I'd be wondering "what if" or just kicking myself in the behind later (not easy for an old guy to do).

Enjoy your setup with whatever you choose
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you, Ken! I think you are too modest, and I think that I don't know nearly as much as I would like to.

While I love the way Ken, @Matt2026 think.
I personally think, You are the one too modest
Even Jim @JimWilson regard You with very high esteem, as the Yoda of subs


Ray

Last edited by darthray; 02-10-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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post #30452 of 33546 Old 02-09-2019, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
... the Yoda of subs


Ray
+1 can’t disagree! The consistent quality of his output reflects the effort he has expended on the input side...both as teacher and student.

Epson: 5040UB | Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1) | Onkyo: TX-RZ920 + M-5010 (7.2.4) | Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6 | SVS: PB16-Ultra x 2 | Philips: BDP7501, Panasonic: DMP UB900, Oppo: UDP-203

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post #30453 of 33546 Old 02-09-2019, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you, Ken! I think you are too modest, and I think that I don't know nearly as much as I would like to.
Now that's being modest. So don't sell yourself short here.

You extend yourself to others in a way that is beyond commenable. The knowledge that you've shared with just myself alone has helped to make my quaint little living room setup sound MILES apart from where I started.

So had it not been for your help, I would probably still be tweaking away at this thing trying to get it to sound the way it does now.

You are a major asset to this community.

"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken." - Tyler Durden

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post #30454 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 02:02 AM
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+1 for the Mike love

He was instrumental in my own sub purchase decision, and the Guide helped me afterwards! I still need to sit down and read the whole thing sometime, I'm sad to say I haven't yet.

TCL 55P607, OPPO UDP-203, 4K Fire TV, Marantz 6011, Rotel 1075 (Atmos)
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post #30455 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I'm really glad to hear that you are enjoying your new PB3000 so much!

You can get different opinions on anything, and the issue of whether to get tower speakers or bookshelves is no exception. Speaking personally, I think that tower speakers make a lot of sense in large rooms where the speakers are widely separated, and fairly distant from the main listening position. Among other things, the distances involved put a greater premium on the speakers' ability to play lower frequencies at reasonable volumes.

In smaller rooms, where speakers are closer together, and closer to the MLP, bookshelf speakers make a lot of sense to me. They should image as well or better than tower speakers, at close range, and they should have plenty of SPL for the frequencies they need to support the bass in the subwoofers effectively.

All they really need to do is to be able to go down to a little below 80Hz or so, to give a smooth transition to the subs. (That's assuming an 80Hz crossover, but you could choose to use a 90 or 100Hz crossover, depending on your own preferences. And then, towers would have even less value in your room.) At a distance of about 2m, the 80Hz crossovers to your front soundstage should be a piece of cake. So, given your room size and listening distance, I would recommend going with the bookshelf speakers and the second PB3000.

I think that the SVS Primes will please you, and so will the second PB3000. If I were going to consider another upgrade later, it might be to the Ultra bookshelves and center. Personally, I would probably do that, in your room, before going to towers. But, that could happen later, if you ever decided to upgrade speakers again.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I just went to the SVS website to check on the prices of the various speakers being discussed, and I noticed that some of the links aren't working. From my web browser, at least, I am unable to get to the Ultra speakers by clicking on the heading. But, looking at the Outlet gives me an idea of the differences in price. It looks to me as if the Prime bookshelves would definitely be the way to go.
Hey Mike!

Thanks again for a great answer. Seems like Bookshelfs are indeed more suitable for my room. The towers also won't get high enough in order for their tweeters to be ear height for me, they are going to be chest height. I don't know if that's really that important, but I read about that a lot.

I suppose that towers with two subs would be the ultimate package though

P.S.: Ultras are very nice but their size is a beast, and in my current apartment I definitely don't have space for them.
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Screen: LG OLED77C9 AVR: Denon X4400H, External amps: Emotiva XPA-5 Gen3/A-500, Center: SVS Ultra Center, Fronts: SVS Ultra Bookshelfs, Surrounds: SVS Prime Bookshelfs, Surround backs: SVS Ultra Surrounds, Sub: Dual SVS PB-3000s, Heights: 4xCambridge Audio Minx 22, 4K Blu-Ray Player: Sony X700, Media player: Nvidia Shield
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post #30456 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
While I love the way Ken, @Matt2026 think.
I personally think, You are the one too modest
Even Jim Wilson @JimWilson regard You with very high esteem, as the Yoda of subs


Ray
Quote:
Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
+1 can’t disagree! The consistent quality of his output reflects the effort he has expended on the input side...both as teacher and student.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
Now that's being modest. So don't sell yourself short here.

You extend yourself to others in a way that is beyond commenable. The knowledge that you've shared with just myself alone has helped to make my quaint little living room setup sound MILES apart from where I started.

So had it not been for your help, I would probably still be tweaking away at this thing trying to get it to sound the way it does now.

You are a major asset to this community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Zuehlke View Post
+1 for the Mike love

He was instrumental in my own sub purchase decision, and the Guide helped me afterwards! I still need to sit down and read the whole thing sometime, I'm sad to say I haven't yet.
Thank you very much, guys! Those comments make me feel very good! Now, I just have to try to live up to them.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #30457 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much, guys! Those comments make me feel very good! Now, I just have to try to live up to them.

Regards,
Mike
Just keep on being you, man!

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post #30458 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith Zuehlke View Post
+1 for the Mike love

He was instrumental in my own sub purchase decision, and the Guide helped me afterwards! I still need to sit down and read the whole thing sometime, I'm sad to say I haven't yet.
See you back here when sleigh bells are ringing? Lol

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post #30459 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
While I love the way Ken, @Matt2026 think.
I personally think, You are the one too modest
Even Jim Wilson @JimWilson regard You with very high esteem, as the Yoda of subs
Mike's guide is an exceptional piece of work; detailed, accurate and well articulated. It represents a huge investment of time and the fact he's doing it without receiving any compensation speaks to him as a person. His replies to posts are always first rate, some of the best I've seen. He deserves all the accolades he gets.

 
If you take yourself too seriously expect me to do the exact opposite.

BTW, did you really need to quote the entire post?
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post #30460 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much, guys! Those comments make me feel very good! Now, I just have to try to live up to them.

Regards,
Mike
Hey Mike,

Nothing to live UP to...

You're already doing it with great consistency
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post #30461 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Thank you very much, guys! Those comments make me feel very good! Now, I just have to try to live up to them.

Regards,
Mike
More than well deserve, and for living-up to-it. You are more than doing an Outstanding job at-it

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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
+1 can’t disagree! The consistent quality of his output reflects the effort he has expended on the input side...both as teacher and student.
I will say this one of his greatest quality. Even with his great personal knowledge, Mike is always ready to learn himself from others for the very few things He might not know.
That speak a lot of the character of a person, and very few do have that quality

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post
Mike's guide is an exceptional piece of work; detailed, accurate and well articulated. It represents a huge investment of time and the fact he's doing it without receiving any compensation speaks to him as a person. His replies to posts are always first rate, some of the best I've seen. He deserves all the accolades he gets.
Other than a Big +1, you have sum-it up pretty well


Ray
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post #30462 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

It looks as if your question got lost a bit in the other discussions. I would not personally characterize this as a lateral move at all. But, I think it depends somewhat on what you are looking for. PSA ported subwoofers have port tunes in about the low to mid 20Hz range, depending on the model. But, they are typically stronger than comparable SVS subs in the mid-bass range (from about 60 to 100Hz). Tom doesn't use very low port tunes, which is a primary factor in determining low-frequency extension, and he deliberately concentrates more amplifier power in the mid-bass range than SVS does.

The lowest frequencies, on the other hand, require several factors to achieve. Those factors typically include: larger cabinet volumes, lower port tunes, more amplifier power concentrated in the low frequencies, and stiffer drivers (woofer cones) with greater motor strength. So, the two subwoofers will offer significantly different advantages. In my personal opinion, most people with good quality dual subs will have plenty of mid-bass SPL. Once they have that, they will probably upgrade for more low-bass SPL and TR (tactile response). And, the PB4000's will have a very sizable advantage in that respect.

You can find CEA-2010 test data for the PB4000, but you can't find comparable test data for most PSA subs. Max output is never listed, by individual frequency, for direct comparison purposes. What is shown, though, is the native frequency response of the PSA subwoofers. And, if you compare those, to the native frequency response of other subwoofers, you can see the difference in low-frequency extension.

For instance, you could look at the V15DF, on the PSA website, which is probably the closest current example to your sub. If you click on the Performance tab, you will note in both the frequency response graph, and the compression graph, that the sub begins to roll-off quite perceptibly at about 30Hz. By 20Hz, it is down by 3db, and by about 17Hz, it is down by about another 5db. So, the sub loses about 8db between ~ 30Hz and ~ 17Hz.

If you compare that to the PB4000, on the SVS website (clicking on Tech Info), you will see that the sub is almost ruler flat in the Extended Mode (16Hz port tune) from 30Hz out to about that same 17Hz. That gives the PB4000 about an 8db advantage at 17Hz. That is an enormous difference, which should be perceived as additional bass weight with most content, and which should increase both audible and tactile low-bass special effects in movies. The subwoofer also has some user-adjustability features which can help to tailor the sound and FR somewhat to your room and personal tastes.

The big SVS ported subs are low-frequency specialists in Extended mode. But, with duals, they should also have enough mid-bass SPL to satisfy most listeners. That is why I say that, depending on what you are looking for, they are not a lateral move, in my opinion. For me, at least, they would constitute a pretty serious upgrade. I hope that you find this analysis helpful!

Regards,
Mike



so these numbers are 9db more, give or take , than what audioholics measure at 2m, open space, when they measure ?

psa df15




16Hz - 25Hz: 115.8 dB

31Hz - 50Hz: 124.0 dB

63Hz - 100Hz: 126.3 dB

16Hz - 100Hz: 123.2 dB






pb 4000 from audioholics website
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post #30463 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Demetri Zuev View Post
Hey Mike!

Thanks again for a great answer. Seems like Bookshelfs are indeed more suitable for my room. The towers also won't get high enough in order for their tweeters to be ear height for me, they are going to be chest height. I don't know if that's really that important, but I read about that a lot.

I suppose that towers with two subs would be the ultimate package though

P.S.: Ultras are very nice but their size is a beast, and in my current apartment I definitely don't have space for them.
Other than money, I do not see the small size difference would stop you from having the Ultra as the next step-up
A bookshelf on a sturdy stand will occupied the same foot step, therefore the same space.

While the center speaker is a little big bigger, it only by a few inches.
Prime 7.7 x 18.6 x 9.2", (H x W x D).
Ultra 8.2 x 22 x 10.9", (H x W x D).


Ray
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post #30464 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by nodoubt View Post
so these numbers are 9db more, give or take , than what audioholics measure at 2m, open space, when they measure ?

psa df15


16Hz - 25Hz: 115.8 dB

31Hz - 50Hz: 124.0 dB

63Hz - 100Hz: 126.3 dB

16Hz - 100Hz: 123.2 dB


pb 4000 from audioholics website
Hi,

Yes, the 9db difference in output is correct. In case someone else doesn't understand what you are referring to, there are two different ways to measure subwoofers outdoors. Both methods are credible and acceptable, and both are done in an open field or parking lot with no structures nearby to add boundary gain. One way is the method used by PSA on their website. HSU uses the same method. It is a measurement taken at 1m from the cone of the driver, using max burst.

The method used by Data-Bass, Audioholics, and most others, measures subwoofers from 2m and measures max continuous burst--RMS. Outdoors, a doubling in distance equals 6db less SPL. (Indoors, it is about a 3db difference due to boundary gain.) The difference between the two measurement methods is 9db--6db for the difference in distance, and 3db for the difference between max burst and RMS.

So, to compare measurements among subwoofers tested using different methods, it is necessary to subtract 9db from the numbers shown on the PSA and HSU websites. The PSA website is a little more confusing than HSU because max SPL isn't shown by individual frequencies, but instead is shown as an average of a range of frequencies.

That works well for most of the frequency range, but shows a somewhat artificial representation of the lowest frequencies, because ported subwoofers with 20Hz plus port tunes are dropping-off pretty fast below 25Hz, and may start to roll-off as early as 30Hz, as they do in the example I cited. That makes comparisons more difficult, which is why I like to look at graphs of the native frequency response.

I actually believe that the FR graphs tell us more about how a subwoofer will actually sound--with more mid-bass emphasis, or with more low-bass emphasis, somewhat irrespective of volume level. Low-tuned subwoofers, for instance, will tend to sustain more bass weight even at moderate volume levels. Of course, that depends somewhat on the low-bass content. I hope this more detailed explanation helps!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #30465 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetri Zuev View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I'm really glad to hear that you are enjoying your new PB3000 so much! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

You can get different opinions on anything, and the issue of whether to get tower speakers or bookshelves is no exception. Speaking personally, I think that tower speakers make a lot of sense in large rooms where the speakers are widely separated, and fairly distant from the main listening position. Among other things, the distances involved put a greater premium on the speakers' ability to play lower frequencies at reasonable volumes.

In smaller rooms, where speakers are closer together, and closer to the MLP, bookshelf speakers make a lot of sense to me. They should image as well or better than tower speakers, at close range, and they should have plenty of SPL for the frequencies they need to support the bass in the subwoofers effectively.

All they really need to do is to be able to go down to a little below 80Hz or so, to give a smooth transition to the subs. (That's assuming an 80Hz crossover, but you could choose to use a 90 or 100Hz crossover, depending on your own preferences. And then, towers would have even less value in your room.) At a distance of about 2m, the 80Hz crossovers to your front soundstage should be a piece of cake. So, given your room size and listening distance, I would recommend going with the bookshelf speakers and the second PB3000.

I think that the SVS Primes will please you, and so will the second PB3000. If I were going to consider another upgrade later, it might be to the Ultra bookshelves and center. Personally, I would probably do that, in your room, before going to towers. But, that could happen later, if you ever decided to upgrade speakers again.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I just went to the SVS website to check on the prices of the various speakers being discussed, and I noticed that some of the links aren't working. From my web browser, at least, I am unable to get to the Ultra speakers by clicking on the heading. But, looking at the Outlet gives me an idea of the differences in price. It looks to me as if the Prime bookshelves would definitely be the way to go.
Hey Mike!

Thanks again for a great answer. Seems like Bookshelfs are indeed more suitable for my room. The towers also won't get high enough in order for their tweeters to be ear height for me, they are going to be chest height. I don't know if that's really that important, but I read about that a lot.

I suppose that towers with two subs would be the ultimate package though [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

P.S.: Ultras are very nice but their size is a beast, and in my current apartment I definitely don't have space for them.
I think there are plenty of towers where the tweeters may not actually be at ear height but in fact lower (chest). I really don’t think that’s a problem anymore then most people having centre channel tweeters and drivers below tower tweeters and much below ear height.

I for example have monitor audio Gold 200 towers and they are lower then ear height..,but stronger then bookshelves!

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post #30466 of 33546 Old 02-10-2019, 05:38 PM
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Late to the party, but another vote for Mike being a great dude. He has helped me plenty and never responds in an insulting manner, no matter how simple the question. I have come to trust his opinion greatly and follow what he reccomends. Great value to this site, thanks again Mike.
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post #30467 of 33546 Old 02-11-2019, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

It can be a little bit hard to narrow down your subwoofer choices. But, it may help to realize that all of the people giving you advice have probably been in your shoes with respect to their own rooms and subwoofer choices. And, the advice that they give is based on their own experiences, and on observing similar experiences from many others. All we can do, in giving you advice, is to base the advice on the things you tell us, combined with the observations above.

But, I think that the advice to go ported, and to go as big as you can, is the best approach in this case. If the PB3000 is the biggest sub that you think you can accommodate, then that is the one I would start with. Later, you may find that you can add another one. But, starting with the low-frequency extension that you are looking for is important, and subwoofer size is a major factor in that. It's especially important when you have a large room--or combined spaces in this case. That is because you won't get a lot of room gain to augment the low-bass frequencies, so the subwoofer will need to produce as much of that as possible.

For 70% HT, in a large room, a large ported subwoofer is going to be the most common recommendation about 99% of the time. And, that's where observing the experiences of so many other people is helpful. When we aren't sure exactly what to do, but we know that we want a lot of bass, starting with the largest (lowest extension) subwoofer we can afford, and adding another one when we can, is an awfully good approach.

You might find a video review of the PB3000, from Post 228 of this thread, helpful:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...woofers-8.html

Regards,
Mike
Mike! UDAMan! I checked out that vid/review and I'm going to try out the PB3000 1st. I was thinking two PB2000's but I like the app capabilities of the 3000 and since it's possible try out multiple subs during this selection process it just seems like a good starting place. I could go SB4000 based on enclosure and budget being 1500, but then I'm getting back to that same debate between sealed and ported again, clouding my decisions. LOL

I think I told you before about current sub set up...but here it is again just in case, and if it makes any difference.
Marantz 5013
Vandersteen 2Wq sub - speaker level input - tied into R/L channel vandersteen bookshelf's VLR-1's (no x-2 crossover installed currently)
Velodyne 15" sub DSL-R 15 - (LFE) (Just borrowing this sub from in-laws.)

The Velodyne is newer than my Vander, but I like sound and feel of the Vander. I could never tell where the bass was coming from with the Vander...it just felt tight and clean and only came on when necessary for movies and/or music in the single sub configuration. The Velodyne, mixed in with this current setup, LFE, just seems be firing most of the time, so maybe just a set up issue, and you can tell it's coming from behind the couch in the right corner of the room (Vander is currently diagonal left front corner of the room).

The Marantz Audyssey set up put the fronts as large, maybe do to the Vander being speaker level input, but I switch them to small manually and the rest of the speakers, center and surround were already small, and then the Velodyne is LFE.

So my decisions are remove the Vander completely, and just run a new SVS via LFE, or keep the Vander and run new SVS as well. Just not sure what makes the most sense. The Vander still sounds great when run in stereo for music and I've had that sub for so long it's hard to let go! LOL I had it hooked up for about 4 years and then we moved to rental and it sat in the box for 4 years until we just purchased a house 3 years ago and I pulled it back out.

Anyway, TMI I know but this is where I am currently and I just know I need to return the Velodyne and pick up the SVS ASAP.
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post #30468 of 33546 Old 02-11-2019, 10:59 AM
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Mike! UDAMan! I checked out that vid/review and I'm going to try out the PB3000 1st. I was thinking two PB2000's but I like the app capabilities of the 3000 and since it's possible try out multiple subs during this selection process it just seems like a good starting place. I could go SB4000 based on enclosure and budget being 1500, but then I'm getting back to that same debate between sealed and ported again, clouding my decisions. LOL

I think I told you before about current sub set up...but here it is again just in case, and if it makes any difference.
Marantz 5013
Vandersteen 2Wq sub - speaker level input - tied into R/L channel vandersteen bookshelf's VLR-1's (no x-2 crossover installed currently)
Velodyne 15" sub DSL-R 15 - (LFE) (Just borrowing this sub from in-laws.)

The Velodyne is newer than my Vander, but I like sound and feel of the Vander. I could never tell where the bass was coming from with the Vander...it just felt tight and clean and only came on when necessary for movies and/or music in the single sub configuration. The Velodyne, mixed in with this current setup, LFE, just seems be firing most of the time, so maybe just a set up issue, and you can tell it's coming from behind the couch in the right corner of the room (Vander is currently diagonal left front corner of the room).

The Marantz Audyssey set up put the fronts as large, maybe do to the Vander being speaker level input, but I switch them to small manually and the rest of the speakers, center and surround were already small, and then the Velodyne is LFE.

So my decisions are remove the Vander completely, and just run a new SVS via LFE, or keep the Vander and run new SVS as well. Just not sure what makes the most sense. The Vander still sounds great when run in stereo for music and I've had that sub for so long it's hard to let go! LOL I had it hooked up for about 4 years and then we moved to rental and it sat in the box for 4 years until we just purchased a house 3 years ago and I pulled it back out.

Anyway, TMI I know but this is where I am currently and I just know I need to return the Velodyne and pick up the SVS ASAP.
Hi,

I especially like that last part, about picking up the PB3000 ASAP. I think it is a good choice, and I think you will like it a lot!

With respect to whether to run the PB3000 by itself, or in combination with your older Vandersteen subwoofer, I would recommend just starting with the SVS subwoofer. The capabilities and roll-off characteristics of the subwoofers are very different. I don't think that they are likely to work well together. In fact, you may actually get cancellation starting at or above the port tune of the PB3000 if you run them together.

Audyssey won't be able to help much with respect to the differences in the two subs. Audyssey will simply stop EQing, at all, at the frequency where the Vandersteen is rolling-off by 3db, relative to the SVS sub. It does that to prevent the weaker subwoofer from being inadvertently over-boosted by the control points Audyssey sets. Automated room EQ isn't very helpful where we have significantly mismatched subs.

So, I would place the PB3000 in its best position in the room, which might be that front left corner you mentioned, and I would run Audyssey. Then, I would spend some time tweaking settings and adjusting the subwoofer volume. Once you have a pretty good baseline for the inherent sound quality of the PB3000, if you are still really curious, you could add the 2Wq somewhere to determine whether it actually degrades the sound quality you get with just the PB3000. I think it probably will.

Mixing ported and sealed subwoofers, with very different frequency responses and output capabilities is rarely a good idea, unless we are able to spend some effort measuring and independently EQing the resulting frequency response. YMMV!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Hi,

I especially like that last part, about picking up the PB3000 ASAP. I think it is a good choice, and I think you will like it a lot!

With respect to whether to run the PB3000 by itself, or in combination with your older Vandersteen subwoofer, I would recommend just starting with the SVS subwoofer. The capabilities and roll-off characteristics of the subwoofers are very different. I don't think that they are likely to work well together. In fact, you may actually get cancellation starting at or above the port tune of the PB3000 if you run them together.

Audyssey won't be able to help much with respect to the differences in the two subs. Audyssey will simply stop EQing, at all, at the frequency where the Vandersteen is rolling-off by 3db, relative to the SVS sub. It does that to prevent the weaker subwoofer from being inadvertently over-boosted by the control points Audyssey sets. Automated room EQ isn't very helpful where we have significantly mismatched subs.

So, I would place the PB3000 in its best position in the room, which might be that front left corner you mentioned, and I would run Audyssey. Then, I would spend some time tweaking settings and adjusting the subwoofer volume. Once you have a pretty good baseline for the inherent sound quality of the PB3000, if you are still really curious, you could add the 2Wq somewhere to determine whether it actually degrades the sound quality you get with just the PB3000. I think it probably will.

Mixing ported and sealed subwoofers, with very different frequency responses and output capabilities is rarely a good idea, unless we are able to spend some effort measuring and independently EQing the resulting frequency response. YMMV!

Regards,
Mike
Mike! You're the best man! PB3000 on order! Keep you posted. I think the info provided is very very helpful and looking forward to more posts and info once I get into this thing...ordered the SVS Soundpath Subwoofer Iso kit and RCA connection too.

edit: Hey Mike, do you have a DL/printable file for the "Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences?"

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Originally Posted by Lowball_156xxx View Post
Mike! You're the best man! PB3000 on order! Keep you posted. I think the info provided is very very helpful and looking forward to more posts and info once I get into this thing...ordered the SVS Soundpath Subwoofer Iso kit and RCA connection too.

edit: Hey Mike, do you have a DL/printable file for the "Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences?"
No, unfortunately I don't! Several people have indicated that they were going to print-out the Guide, in order to make it easier to read. And, I agree that it might be a little easier to read that way. The downside to that, though, would be an inability to follow links to other websites, defining complex topics or illustrating things in more detail. There are also several short videos which illustrate the sound of different frequencies, or of room distortion, or something else along that line.

The other issue is that I continue to edit the Guide at unpredictable intervals. I have made several edits in the last week or so, and although they consumed no more than a few paragraphs in total, I consider all of them somewhat substantive. Major edits, involving new subsections for instance, are announced in the Guide thread, so that people will know to look for them. But, I frequently think of additional examples I want to add, or slightly better or more detailed ways to explain things, and there is no way to keep track of those edits. I simply do the edits directly to the Guide here on AVS forum.

I have printed out record copies for myself, a couple of times, and I think I converted one to a Word format before I did it. But, I can't really keep up with all of my own edits (and editions) without devoting more time to the process than I am willing to commit. So, we are all pretty much in the same boat, in that respect. If I were you, I would just try to read and refer to the Guide on your computer. That way, you will always be certain that you are reading the latest version, and that you aren't missing-out on any links or videos that might help to clarify things.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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Late to the party, but another vote for Mike being a great dude. He has helped me plenty and never responds in an insulting manner, no matter how simple the question. I have come to trust his opinion greatly and follow what he reccomends. Great value to this site, thanks again Mike.
First, Thank you for your post to add to all others that appreciate what He do for us

Mike @mthomas47, has help many, and still do out of Love for this Hobby
He also did help me a great deal, and now very Happy with the way my bass sound.

He also have the attitude, that there is no question too big or too small.
In a simple word. "You do not know, what you do not know".
And the only way to learn, is to ask if your search has fail you


Ray
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post #30472 of 33546 Old 02-11-2019, 06:19 PM
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No, unfortunately I don't! Several people have indicated that they were going to print-out the Guide, in order to make it easier to read. And, I agree that it might be a little easier to read that way. The downside to that, though, would be an inability to follow links to other websites, defining complex topics or illustrating things in more detail. There are also several short videos which illustrate the sound of different frequencies, or of room distortion, or something else along that line.

The other issue is that I continue to edit the Guide at unpredictable intervals. I have made several edits in the last week or so, and although they consumed no more than a few paragraphs in total, I consider all of them somewhat substantive. Major edits, involving new subsections for instance, are announced in the Guide thread, so that people will know to look for them. But, I frequently think of additional examples I want to add, or slightly better or more detailed ways to explain things, and there is no way to keep track of those edits. I simply do the edits directly to the Guide here on AVS forum.

I have printed out record copies for myself, a couple of times, and I think I converted one to a Word format before I did it. But, I can't really keep up with all of my own edits (and editions) without devoting more time to the process than I am willing to commit. So, we are all pretty much in the same boat, in that respect. If I were you, I would just try to read and refer to the Guide on your computer. That way, you will always be certain that you are reading the latest version, and that you aren't missing-out on any links or videos that might help to clarify things.

Regards,
Mike
Agree very much on this one
Loosing "The downside to that, though, would be an inability to follow links to other websites, defining complex topics or illustrating things in more detail", would be a downer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowball_156xxx View Post
Mike! You're the best man! PB3000 on order! Keep you posted. I think the info provided is very very helpful and looking forward to more posts and info once I get into this thing...ordered the SVS Soundpath Subwoofer Iso kit and RCA connection too.

edit: Hey Mike, do you have a DL/printable file for the "Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences?"
Here's the way I did-it, while it was a long time ago. When the Guide was new, and lot's have been added since then.
It does require some patience, if you screw-up during the Highlight to copy process

You go at the beginning of the first post, start to highlight the whole post and click on copy.
Go to "Microsoft Office Word", open-it and paste. Then start printing, and yes-it will take a while and lots of ink. The reason I only use Laser printer now (Black, no color) only
Then repeat these steps for the second post (the rest of the Guide).

And Enjoy your new Toy


Ray
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New sub problem

I just received my Duel PC4000s today from Aamir of Summit Hifi in Ontario (great customer service).
I’m having problems hearing anything out of the sub and want to see why. It appears my cables are correct:
I have the sub rca cable going from the “audio pre-out sub” port in my NAD 758 and it is going into the LFE port on the PC4000. The power is on both and the app is connected. Even at -10 or less on sub I don’t hear or feel any bass. My NAD has my speakers set to small and the crossover is at 80. Any idea why there is no sound coming from my sub??

Sony 75Z9D (5.2.4) Samsung 65JS9500
Monitor Audio Gold 200(2), Gold 350, Gold 50(2), Gold CT280-IDC(4). SVS PC4000(2).
NAD 758, Anthem MCA-5
Apple TV 4K, Nvidea Shield. Mac Mini (2018). Samsung UHD BluRay and X-Box One X. 14 Sonos
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post #30474 of 33546 Old 02-11-2019, 08:13 PM
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I just received my Duel PC4000s today from Aamir of Summit Hifi in Ontario (great customer service).
I’m having problems hearing anything out of the sub and want to see why. It appears my cables are correct:
I have the sub rca cable going from the “audio pre-out sub” port in my NAD 758 and it is going into the LFE port on the PC4000. The power is on both and the app is connected. Even at -10 or less on sub I don’t hear or feel any bass. My NAD has my speakers set to small and the crossover is at 80. Any idea why there is no sound coming from my sub??
Both subs have no output or just one?

LG OLED65C7P (Chad B Calibrated) | Denon X4300H | HDHomeRun Quatro | Nvidia Shield Pro 2019 | ATV 4K | Oppo UDP-203 | 40TB Plex server
5.2.4 | Front Klipsch RP-160M x2 | Center Klipsch RP-450C | Surrounds Klipsch RP-150M x2 | Atmos Klipsch RP-140SA x 4 | Subs SVS PC-4000 x 2 | miniDSP 2x4 HD
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post #30475 of 33546 Old 02-11-2019, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I just received my Duel PC4000s today from Aamir of Summit Hifi in Ontario (great customer service).
I’m having problems hearing anything out of the sub and want to see why. It appears my cables are correct:
I have the sub rca cable going from the “audio pre-out sub” port in my NAD 758 and it is going into the LFE port on the PC4000. The power is on both and the app is connected. Even at -10 or less on sub I don’t hear or feel any bass. My NAD has my speakers set to small and the crossover is at 80. Any idea why there is no sound coming from my sub??
Both subs have no output or just one?
Only tried one-they are monsters and don’t plan on opening the other one for a bit till Reno is done in a few weeks. Just wanted to try one out in upstairs until ready.

Sony 75Z9D (5.2.4) Samsung 65JS9500
Monitor Audio Gold 200(2), Gold 350, Gold 50(2), Gold CT280-IDC(4). SVS PC4000(2).
NAD 758, Anthem MCA-5
Apple TV 4K, Nvidea Shield. Mac Mini (2018). Samsung UHD BluRay and X-Box One X. 14 Sonos
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post #30476 of 33546 Old 02-11-2019, 08:31 PM
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Only tried one-they are monsters and don’t plan on opening the other one for a bit till Reno is done in a few weeks. Just wanted to try one out in upstairs until ready.
It sounds like you have it connected and AVR set correctly. Best way to troubleshoot is probably hooking up the other PC-4000. If it works the first one has a bad amp or loose internal connection. If not it's unlikely both have bad amps and more likely a setup issue.

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5.2.4 | Front Klipsch RP-160M x2 | Center Klipsch RP-450C | Surrounds Klipsch RP-150M x2 | Atmos Klipsch RP-140SA x 4 | Subs SVS PC-4000 x 2 | miniDSP 2x4 HD

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post #30477 of 33546 Old 02-12-2019, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Only tried one-they are monsters and don’t plan on opening the other one for a bit till Reno is done in a few weeks. Just wanted to try one out in upstairs until ready.
It sounds like you have it connected and AVR set correctly. Best way to troubleshoot is probably hooking up the other PC-4000. If it works the first one has a bad amp or loose internal connection. If not it's unlikely both have bad amps and more likely a setup issue.
So after trying both and still not hearing or feeling much at normal volume even when sub was set to -10 or less I noticed if I turned the volume up a lot on a bass heavy tune I could fee a bit at the bottom of the subs when they were on but definitely didn’t feel close to tumbling anything or thumping or deep bass feel that I thought I would get in extended mode with the PC4000s.

The reason I am concerned or underwhelmed is because compared to my sonos sub that’s in the same room it is much much less powerful and noticeable with tv and music. The sonos sub I have to turn on less then half strength and it really rattles and is more felt-the Pc4000 is very very subtle with similar volume. I understand that there is some tweaking to be had but how is it that I have to go to the point of feeing underneath the subs to make sure they are on? Does this sound right? A sonos sub is about 1/8 of the size and I get in trouble with that played at medium loud with the same tracks...

Sony 75Z9D (5.2.4) Samsung 65JS9500
Monitor Audio Gold 200(2), Gold 350, Gold 50(2), Gold CT280-IDC(4). SVS PC4000(2).
NAD 758, Anthem MCA-5
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post #30478 of 33546 Old 02-12-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
So after trying both and still not hearing or feeling much at normal volume even when sub was set to -10 or less I noticed if I turned the volume up a lot on a bass heavy tune I could fee a bit at the bottom of the subs when they were on but definitely didn’t feel close to tumbling anything or thumping or deep bass feel that I thought I would get in extended mode with the PC4000s.

The reason I am concerned or underwhelmed is because compared to my sonos sub that’s in the same room it is much much less powerful and noticeable with tv and music. The sonos sub I have to turn on less then half strength and it really rattles and is more felt-the Pc4000 is very very subtle with similar volume. I understand that there is some tweaking to be had but how is it that I have to go to the point of feeing underneath the subs to make sure they are on? Does this sound right? A sonos sub is about 1/8 of the size and I get in trouble with that played at medium loud with the same tracks...
While possible seems unlikely both subs have an amp or connection issue. Not familiar with NAD AVRs but more likely a config issue. Have you re-run speaker setup/calibration? Maybe AVR doesn't know you have subs in your speaker config yet? You can directly test subs by hooking up a smartphone via a 3.5mm to RCA adapter. Connect to sub RCA inputs. Temporarily set low pass filter on subs to about 150hz and turn volume way up on phone. Play a bassy song. If no luck then call SVS to walk you through troubleshooting steps.
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
So after trying both and still not hearing or feeling much at normal volume even when sub was set to -10 or less I noticed if I turned the volume up a lot on a bass heavy tune I could fee a bit at the bottom of the subs when they were on but definitely didn’t feel close to tumbling anything or thumping or deep bass feel that I thought I would get in extended mode with the PC4000s.

The reason I am concerned or underwhelmed is because compared to my sonos sub that’s in the same room it is much much less powerful and noticeable with tv and music. The sonos sub I have to turn on less then half strength and it really rattles and is more felt-the Pc4000 is very very subtle with similar volume. I understand that there is some tweaking to be had but how is it that I have to go to the point of feeing underneath the subs to make sure they are on? Does this sound right? A sonos sub is about 1/8 of the size and I get in trouble with that played at medium loud with the same tracks...
While possible seems unlikely both subs have an amp or connection issue. Not familiar with NAD AVRs but more likely a config issue. Have you re-run speaker setup/calibration? Maybe AVR doesn't know you have subs in your speaker config yet? You can directly test subs by hooking up a smartphone via a 3.5mm to RCA adapter. Connect to sub RCA inputs. Temporarily set low pass filter on subs to about 150hz and turn volume way up on phone. Play a bassy song. If no luck then call SVS to walk you through troubleshooting steps.
In the receivers menu I have set the front 3 speakers and center to small and crossover to 80. The sub is set to on in the receiver. I don’t run Dirac yet but I don’t really think that should affect the sub being loud or not...is it normal that the receiver needs to be set at -20 or louder to hear even medium bass when the sub is at -10 or -5??
I thought I would feel the bass even if it was -20 or lower. Couldn’t imagine how anemic the PB1000 or 2000 would be if that’s the case.

I don’t currently have a rca-3.5 adaptor...I guess I will have to look into one?

I do have Umik and MiniDSP 2x4 HD that i haven’t opened yet and don’t know how to use yet. Any way of quickly finding out with those?

Under tone controls I just put bass up to 6 DB from 0 on the NAD. Goes 0-10 DB . Not sure if this boost is needed or supposed to be applied. Still not blown away but seems stronger now then when it wasn’t set. Still not as strong as the sonos

Sony 75Z9D (5.2.4) Samsung 65JS9500
Monitor Audio Gold 200(2), Gold 350, Gold 50(2), Gold CT280-IDC(4). SVS PC4000(2).
NAD 758, Anthem MCA-5
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post #30480 of 33546 Old 02-12-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I just received my Duel PC4000s today from Aamir of Summit Hifi in Ontario (great customer service).
I’m having problems hearing anything out of the sub and want to see why. It appears my cables are correct:
I have the sub rca cable going from the “audio pre-out sub” port in my NAD 758 and it is going into the LFE port on the PC4000. The power is on both and the app is connected. Even at -10 or less on sub I don’t hear or feel any bass. My NAD has my speakers set to small and the crossover is at 80. Any idea why there is no sound coming from my sub??
Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
While possible seems unlikely both subs have an amp or connection issue. Not familiar with NAD AVRs but more likely a config issue. Have you re-run speaker setup/calibration? Maybe AVR doesn't know you have subs in your speaker config yet? You can directly test subs by hooking up a smartphone via a 3.5mm to RCA adapter. Connect to sub RCA inputs. Temporarily set low pass filter on subs to about 150hz and turn volume way up on phone. Play a bassy song. If no luck then call SVS to walk you through troubleshooting steps.
Something is obviously amiss...the PC4000's should challenge the integrity of your house! It's either a setup/config issue or possibly a mechanical internal amp connection issue. Take advantage of SVS's most notable product...customer service...call them and your issue will be resolved in short order.

Epson: 5040UB | Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1) | Onkyo: TX-RZ920 + M-5010 (7.2.4) | Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6 | SVS: PB16-Ultra x 2 | Philips: BDP7501, Panasonic: DMP UB900, Oppo: UDP-203
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