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post #31021 of 31357 Old 05-09-2019, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
I'm talking specifically about the DEQ component of Audyssey which is separate from the filters XT32 applies. I personally have not had an issue with it and like the DEQ effects at low volumes. However there are many many users over the years that have turned off DEQ and have reported their bass to be cleaner sounding. I suspect some of that has to due with too much of a bass boost from DEQ in some setups/rooms but not sure if there are any other reasons.
I suppose it could be too much of a boost at the lowest frequencies, which many subs can not handle without higher distortion. I have only used it with subs that have very low frequency extension so I have not experienced any muddiness.

It's worth experimenting with, however that is not the first place I would be looking. I would measure to see what kind of result you are getting in your frequency response and in the time domain (waterfall, etc). And maybe, as someone else mentioned, your sub could be in a corner. Also note that ported SVS subs are not designed to produce the kind of tight, articulate sound that some others are, so expectations should be realistic. It's just not that kind of subwoofer.

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post #31022 of 31357 Old 05-09-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Audyssey definitely does not muddy sub-bass - at least not XT32.

It's the sub and/or its placement.
+1

The XT32 does a nice job for equalization for all speakers and the sub/s, so it can be remove as the culprit.
Since the OP @Ethos4Lyfe has a PB4000, I also doubt it is the sub.
I suspect, it is the location of the sub in that room. And also with the DEQ set to On, it could emphasise the problem of that present location.
Since the DEQ increase bass level, when playing at lower volume. And not all sub can achieve reference level, especially if it is large area.


Ray
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post #31023 of 31357 Old 05-09-2019, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
+1

The XT32 does a nice job for equalization for all speakers and the sub/s, so it can be remove as the culprit.
Since the OP @Ethos4Lyfe has a PB4000, I also doubt it is the sub.
I suspect, it is the location of the sub in that room. And also with the DEQ set to On, it could emphasise the problem of that present location.
Since the DEQ increase bass level, when playing at lower volume. And not all sub can achieve reference level, especially if it is large area.


Ray
Thanks for all the great info - I will check if I have that turned on, as well as toy w/ some other settings.
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post #31024 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Ethos4Lyfe View Post
Hey guys!

I love this sub, but sometimes I feel it just lacks a little detail. I know ported has this issue over sealed typically, but I wonder if there's a way to clean it up a bit? I haven't used a umik-1 or run REW. I've just used Audyssey settings (I have the Marantz 8805), and then adjust the subs gain. I know I can go in and mess w/ the EQ and room gain compensation and such in the SVS app. What is the easiest/best way to try and clean this up a bit?
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
There are lots of factors that could be playing a role. One could just be suboptimal placement so you can experiment with that if able. Corner placement may get you more gain but also more bloat and less detail. Some people find that Audyssey’s DEQ muddies the bass a bit. If you have it on you can either try turning it off or taming it’s effect by increasing the reference level offset. If you turn it off you will likely need to add some additional sub gain back especially at lower listening levels.
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+1

The XT32 does a nice job for equalization for all speakers and the sub/s, so it can be remove as the culprit.
Since the OP @Ethos4Lyfe has a PB4000, I also doubt it is the sub.
I suspect, it is the location of the sub in that room. And also with the DEQ set to On, it could emphasise the problem of that present location.
Since the DEQ increase bass level, when playing at lower volume. And not all sub can achieve reference level, especially if it is large area.

Ray


I think that both of these posts, and another longer one of Darth's that I left out, are very helpful to the OP. I would look first at the sub's location. The place in the room where the sub seems loudest may not be the place where the sub seems clearest, so there may be some compromise involved between loudness and clarity. Doing a sub crawl, either by moving the sub around, or by placing the sub in the listening position and moving around the room, really can help to find the best location.

DEQ is also a likely culprit when someone thinks that bass sounds muddy. First, DEQ adds bass to all of the channels, and not just to the subwoofers. For some people, that extra bass can make dialogue coming from the center channel less clear. Second, DEQ adds proportionally more low-bass to the subwoofers than it does mid-bass. Relatively heavier low-bass may make bass sound heavier/muddier than some people prefer.

This part of DEQ's action is a little complicated, but DEQ adds more boost below 70Hz, increasing to a maximum of 2.2db per -5 MV at 30Hz and below. That is the first way that DEQ adds more low-bass relative to mid-bass. But, there is a second way that relates to the way that we hear very low-frequencies in relation to higher bass frequencies. Our hearing is less acute below 500Hz than it is for frequencies in our normal hearing range of 500Hz to 5000Hz. That's why we add bass to begin with, especially at lower volume levels, and that's why DEQ was created.

At 1000Hz, a 10db increase in volume is perceived as a doubling in loudness. But, as frequencies drop toward 30Hz, we actually notice increases in volume more than we do with mid-bass frequencies. It's possible that is an evolutionary adaptation, since in nature low-bass sounds are typically not good. (Large predators and natural disasters may produce strong low-bass. So, perhaps we are wired to notice those low-bass sounds more than higher bass sounds.)

In any event, at about 30Hz and below, it only takes about a 5db increase in volume to be perceived as a doubling in loudness. So, by adding more boost at very low-frequencies, than it is adding at mid-bass frequencies, DEQ is actually calling even more attention to those low-frequencies than the amount of the boost alone would indicate. Boosting below 30Hz and above 30Hz frequencies equally would already have called more attention to the lowest frequencies, due to the way our hearing works. Boosting the lowest frequencies even more than the mid-bass and higher bass frequencies sort of doubles the effect.

Ported subs may already sound slower (they aren't) or muddier to some people, simply because they are emphasizing low-bass frequencies more than sealed subs do. And, SVS ported subs, such as the PB4000, put relatively more emphasis on low-bass frequencies than some other subs do. Now, throw DEQ into the mix, with it's greater boosts in the very low-bass compared to the mid-bass, and we add still another opportunity to make the bass sound relatively heavy. Some people may like that heavier sound and some people may characterize it as "muddy".

I would probably approach the issue systematically, starting with some variation of a sub crawl to find the location where the sub sounds clearest. Then, I might experiment with both the 20Hz Standard port tune and the 16Hz Extended port tune. I would definitely try turning DEQ off and/or using the RLO settings. And finally, I might try lowering the LPF of LFE to 80Hz, and experimenting with cascading crossovers, as Darth suggested in an earlier post.

I would be very surprised if the clarity of the PB4000 couldn't be improved by some combination of those measures.

Regards,
Mike
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post #31025 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 07:14 AM
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Thanks for the reply. When i play movies like Aquaman and Into the Spider Verse the bass is loud so i think i am missing the chest thumping mid bass that tower speakers would provide.

If I did upgrade my sub i would stick with sealed despite the obvious advantage to ported so i would probably get a SB4000 but finding full tower speakers looks like my best option.
I did some playing with my system last night and my crossover was set to 80Hz. I know my NHT bookshelves go down to 56Hz ish but i think my crossover is too low and that could be why i have no mid bass. I switched it to 100Hz and was watching the John Wick scene at the Red Circle club. So far i cannot tell much difference but i need to listen to a lot before i can really tell if something is missing or not as good.

What crossover do you guys use when you have bookshelf speakers with your SVS subs?

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post #31026 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 07:37 AM
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What crossover do you guys use when you have bookshelf speakers with your SVS subs?
I use 80, sounds great for my setup with Focal bookshelf speakers!

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post #31027 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 09:47 AM
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I currently own a svs SB2000 and thinking about upgrading to the SB3000, will there be a noticeable difference sound quality?
Output and extension would likely be noticeable but I doubt SQ will differ much. While the 3000 is not simply a bigger 2000, in all likelihood SVS voiced them similarly so they would align with the rest of their offerings (except for the Ultra series perhaps, which is where they pulled out all the stops).
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post #31028 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 10:16 AM
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I currently own a svs SB2000 and thinking about upgrading to the SB3000, will there be a noticeable difference sound quality?
Output and extension would likely be noticeable but I doubt SQ will differ much. While the 3000 is not simply a bigger 2000, in all likelihood SVS voiced them similarly so they would align with the rest of their offerings (except for the Ultra series perhaps, which is where they pulled out all the stops).
would the difference be like going from a sb1000 to a sb2000?
The sb3000 is quite a bit more powerful than the sb2000 so it should outperform the sb2000 quite easily?
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post #31029 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 10:45 AM
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I currently own a svs SB2000 and thinking about upgrading to the SB3000, will there be a noticeable difference sound quality?
The SB-3000 extends deeper and has considerably higher dynamic output - so most upgraders report a very obvious performance jump, especially on demanding source material at higher playback levels.

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post #31030 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 12:14 PM
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would the difference be like going from a sb1000 to a sb2000?
The sb3000 is quite a bit more powerful than the sb2000 so it should outperform the sb2000 quite easily?
Amplifier wattage is but one criteria used to determine the capabilities of a subwoofer. Taken in isolation not much can be derived from that single specification.
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post #31031 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 01:26 PM
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I did some playing with my system last night and my crossover was set to 80Hz. I know my NHT bookshelves go down to 56Hz ish but i think my crossover is too low and that could be why i have no mid bass. I switched it to 100Hz and was watching the John Wick scene at the Red Circle club. So far i cannot tell much difference but i need to listen to a lot before i can really tell if something is missing or not as good.

What crossover do you guys use when you have bookshelf speakers with your SVS subs?
I use 100 or even 120 with my towers and everything else at 120. Just sounds cleaner. I have 2 subs (very different subs) so I have zero localization issues. I suppose I could try 80hz but my PC12+ has more output at 80-120hz than my towers do so I figure, why not use it?

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post #31032 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Kiler View Post
I did some playing with my system last night and my crossover was set to 80Hz. I know my NHT bookshelves go down to 56Hz ish but i think my crossover is too low and that could be why i have no mid bass. I switched it to 100Hz and was watching the John Wick scene at the Red Circle club. So far i cannot tell much difference but i need to listen to a lot before i can really tell if something is missing or not as good.

What crossover do you guys use when you have bookshelf speakers with your SVS subs?
Even if my Towers go below 56Hz, I still set them at 80Hz.
Tried 60Hz for a while, and got better results with 80Hz during loud and heavy bass moments.

Since your Bookshelf, that go down to 56Hz.
Try 80,100 and 120Hz. Listening to some loud with lower frequencies bass moments.
Since a crossover is not a brick wall, and some lower frequencies are still played to some extend.
Than choose what sound best to you, and let the sub/s do what they are design to do.


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 05-10-2019 at 06:28 PM.
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post #31033 of 31357 Old 05-10-2019, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kiler View Post
I did some playing with my system last night and my crossover was set to 80Hz. I know my NHT bookshelves go down to 56Hz ish but i think my crossover is too low and that could be why i have no mid bass. I switched it to 100Hz and was watching the John Wick scene at the Red Circle club. So far i cannot tell much difference but i need to listen to a lot before i can really tell if something is missing or not as good.

What crossover do you guys use when you have bookshelf speakers with your SVS subs?
Even if my Towers go below 56Hz, I still set them at 80Hz.
Tried 60Hz for a while, and got better results with 80Hz during loud and heavy bass moments.

Since your Bookshelf, that go down to 56Hz.
Try 80,100 and 120Hz. Listening to some loud with lower frequencies bass moments.
Since a crossover is not a brick wall, and some lower frequencies are still played to some extend.
Than choose what sound best to you, and let the sub/s do what they are design to do.


Ray
Ray-I have not got an answer to this in another thread . I use 8 inch Monitor audio in ceilings (CT280-IDC) with the rest of my MA gold 5.1.4 +PC4000s setup should I be using higher then 80 Hz with my ceiling height speakers even if they can handle it (is 100 or 120 better then 80 for ceilings)?

Right now all my speakers are just arbitrarily at 80 pre DIRAC since I heard 80 is safest/most common.

Is it better to keep all the crossovers the same or at times is it good to have the ceiling/heights at a higher crossovers then the rest?

Any opinions on this matter would be greatly appreciated thanks!

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post #31034 of 31357 Old 05-11-2019, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Kiler View Post
I did some playing with my system last night and my crossover was set to 80Hz. I know my NHT bookshelves go down to 56Hz ish but i think my crossover is too low and that could be why i have no mid bass. I switched it to 100Hz and was watching the John Wick scene at the Red Circle club. So far i cannot tell much difference but i need to listen to a lot before i can really tell if something is missing or not as good.

What crossover do you guys use when you have bookshelf speakers with your SVS subs?
I have 7 identical DefTech StudioMonitor 65's for my main speaker layer. The front 3, I have set at I think either 80 or 90 Hz to offload to my subs. I see no reason to buck conventional wisdom here.

My 4 Surrounds, however......

Audyssey set them at a 40Hz crossover, and I left them like that. It doesn't happen much, but for instance in thunderstorm scenes, the thunder actually ROLLS around the room! I wouldn't bump them to 80 Hz now if you paid me, personally. Of course, it depends heavily on the performance your bookshelves can give, and also if your amp can handle the additional load of 40 Hz.

Feel free to experiment with what your ears tell you is best
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post #31035 of 31357 Old 05-11-2019, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Kiler View Post
I did some playing with my system last night and my crossover was set to 80Hz. I know my NHT bookshelves go down to 56Hz ish but i think my crossover is too low and that could be why i have no mid bass. I switched it to 100Hz and was watching the John Wick scene at the Red Circle club. So far i cannot tell much difference but i need to listen to a lot before i can really tell if something is missing or not as good.

What crossover do you guys use when you have bookshelf speakers with your SVS subs?
I have 7 identical DefTech StudioMonitor 65's for my main speaker layer. The front 3, I have set at I think either 80 or 90 Hz to offload to my subs. I see no reason to buck conventional wisdom here.

My 4 Surrounds, however......

Audyssey set them at a 40Hz crossover, and I left them like that. It doesn't happen much, but for instance in thunderstorm scenes, the thunder actually ROLLS around the room! I wouldn't bump them to 80 Hz now if you paid me, personally. Of course, it depends heavily on the performance your bookshelves can give, and also if your amp can handle the additional load of 40 Hz.

Feel free to experiment with what your ears tell you is best [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
That’s mystifying as I have always heard that if not all the crossovers the same at least have the front three set to lower freq crossovers and the surrounds and or in ceilings set to be higher NOT lower then the mains, and in some case up to 120 Hz

40Hz for surrounds seems unconventional

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post #31036 of 31357 Old 05-11-2019, 07:26 AM
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That’s mystifying as I have always heard that if not all the crossovers the same at least have the front three set to lower freq crossovers and the surrounds and or in ceilings set to be higher NOT lower then the mains, and in some case up to 120 Hz

40Hz for surrounds seems unconventional

Hi,

I agree that using 40Hz crossovers for any speakers, much less for surround channels, is unconventional. But, if Keith likes the way they sound with that crossover...

I have answered a lot of your questions over the last year or two, and a common theme has emerged from those questions. You really want someone to tell you the rules to use in your HT: what subwoofer locations would be best for you, what settings would work best for you, and so on. I'm not making fun of that! I think a lot of us probably started off the same way.

I still believe that it is important to understand (not simply memorize, but understand) some best practice principles with respect to our audio/HT systems. But, at some point, you have to give yourself permission to trust what you hear and what you like. Some people will undoubtedly find it easier to do that, and some people will find it harder to give themselves permission to trust their own hearing and their own listening preferences.

A good general rule to follow is to not use crossovers lower than about 80Hz where there is significant bass content. Where there is less bass content in a recording, the crossover is less important. It may also generally be a good idea to use the same crossover across the front soundstage where that is easy to do. But, the center channel and the front speakers may not have exactly the same bass capabilities (either due to their drivers and cabinet volume, or due to their placement) so that isn't always possible or desirable.

Where surround and ceiling speakers are concerned, I would lean toward 80Hz or higher crossovers. And, if I were in any doubt, I would go with higher crossovers in order to preserve amplifier headroom in my AVR, and to minimize the possibility of distortion. It is almost always a good idea to set crossovers at least as high as where they were set during your Dirac calibration, but there should be no harm in going higher than that if you choose to do so. You shouldn't normally be able to localize the subwoofers, for instance, regardless of how high your ceiling crossovers are.

The higher your crossovers are, the more you are off-loading bass from your relatively small and relatively weak speakers to your much more powerful subwoofers. But, you still have to exercise some independent judgment about what sounds best to you. The higher your volume levels, the more that it may make sense to off-load bass from your relatively weaker AVR to your subs. At lower master volume levels of about -15 or less, it probably doesn't matter as much.

In any event, if you want to raise the crossovers for your ceiling speakers to 100Hz or higher, it certainly won't hurt anything, and it may help with respect to overall headroom. At some point, you will either have to trust your own hearing, or your own judgment, for the crossovers you select. You really aren't going to hurt anything if you experiment to tell whether you can hear any difference. I hope this post helps you in a more general way than with just the crossover question.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31037 of 31357 Old 05-11-2019, 10:30 AM
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I just picked up a pair of SB-3000s and I am using a Y Splitter cable to go from the single LFE output to the subwoofers. The volume on both subs is at 0 and I have the go up to +2 or higher to get the bass that could be felt/heard. Is that normal? I've been reading most folks have to put their sub volume to -10 or -20.
After a week of listening and tuning the 2 subs placed in diagonal corners of the room, they sound like they have too much mid bass punch. Too tight sounding. I can’t get them to sound a little deeper.
Does this mean I should look into the PBS instead?
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post #31038 of 31357 Old 05-11-2019, 11:37 AM
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After a week of listening and tuning the 2 subs placed in diagonal corners of the room, they sound like they have too much mid bass punch. Too tight sounding. I can’t get them to sound a little deeper.
Does this mean I should look into the PBS instead?

Hi,

It's interesting how much different peoples' impressions and preferences vary, and how we use the terms we do to describe what we hear. For some people, "tight" punchy mid-bass is a good thing. But, I know what you mean. If you turn-up the volume on your subs, in an effort to hear more deep bass, you have to also turn-up the mid-bass to do it. And, what you seem to really be looking for is more deep bass in proportion to the mid-bass.

You could certainly try some other placement options, but based on your description, I am skeptical that different subwoofer placements would solve the inherent problem. Yes, moving to ported subwoofers would be the solution if you are looking for more deep bass. With sealed subs, the mid-bass will be relatively stronger compared to the deep bass unless individualized PEQ is used to create more of a house curve for the lowest frequencies, or unless the room is so small and the room gain is so great, that a deep bass house curve happens naturally.

Since you already have your subs in corners, I'm guessing that the room gain is not going to be sufficient for you to get the deep bass you are after. Ported subs are sort of the direct opposite of what I just described. Particularly with SVS subs, the lowest frequencies are relatively stronger compared to the mid-bass frequencies. When you turn-up the volume on the ported subs, the low-frequencies get emphasized a little more than the mid-bass frequencies, due to the way we perceive volume increases below about 50Hz, and especially below 30Hz, where the ported models have the biggest advantage.

So, I would recommend moving-up to the PB3000's, and the PB/PC4000's might work even better for your purposes. Either of those models would give you a great deal more of the deep bass you are after than your sealed SB3000's can. A single ported model will give you the equivalent of about three sealed models at very low-frequencies.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #31039 of 31357 Old 05-11-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

It's interesting how much different peoples' impressions and preferences vary, and how we use the terms we do to describe what we hear. For some people, "tight" punchy mid-bass is a good thing. But, I know what you mean. If you turn-up the volume on your subs, in an effort to hear more deep bass, you have to also turn-up the mid-bass to do it. And, what you seem to really be looking for is more deep bass in proportion to the mid-bass.

You could certainly try some other placement options, but based on your description, I am skeptical that different subwoofer placements would solve the inherent problem. Yes, moving to ported subwoofers would be the solution if you are looking for more deep bass. With sealed subs, the mid-bass will be relatively stronger compared to the deep bass unless individualized PEQ is used to create more of a house curve for the lowest frequencies, or unless the room is so small and the room gain is so great, that a deep bass house curve happens naturally.

Since you already have your subs in corners, I'm guessing that the room gain is not going to be sufficient for you to get the deep bass you are after. Ported subs are sort of the direct opposite of what I just described. Particularly with SVS subs, the lowest frequencies are relatively stronger compared to the mid-bass frequencies. When you turn-up the volume on the ported subs, the low-frequencies get emphasized a little more than the mid-bass frequencies, due to the way we perceive volume increases below about 50Hz, and especially below 30Hz, where the ported models have the biggest advantage.

So, I would recommend moving-up to the PB3000's, and the PB/PC4000's might work even better for your purposes. Either of those models would give you a great deal more of the deep bass you are after than your sealed SB3000's can. A single ported model will give you the equivalent of about three sealed models at very low-frequencies.

Regards,
Mike
I am not giving up on them just yet. I played with the parametric eq and low pass filter a little bit more and it improved things a bit.
Watching T2 on 4K disc, the sounds of explosions are a lot more forceful than say shotguns being fired. If I turn up the bass where you can hear the roar of the shotgun being fired, then the explosion scenes are extremely loud. I’m trying to get this adjustment correct so the bass is more even
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I am not giving up on them just yet. I played with the parametric eq and low pass filter a little bit more and it improved things a bit.

Watching T2 on 4K disc, the sounds of explosions are a lot more forceful than say shotguns being fired. If I turn up the bass where you can hear the roar of the shotgun being fired, then the explosion scenes are extremely loud. I’m trying to get this adjustment correct so the bass is more even


Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

It's interesting how much different peoples' impressions and preferences vary, and how we use the terms we do to describe what we hear. For some people, "tight" punchy mid-bass is a good thing. But, I know what you mean. If you turn-up the volume on your subs, in an effort to hear more deep bass, you have to also turn-up the mid-bass to do it. And, what you seem to really be looking for is more deep bass in proportion to the mid-bass.

You could certainly try some other placement options, but based on your description, I am skeptical that different subwoofer placements would solve the inherent problem. Yes, moving to ported subwoofers would be the solution if you are looking for more deep bass. With sealed subs, the mid-bass will be relatively stronger compared to the deep bass unless individualized PEQ is used to create more of a house curve for the lowest frequencies, or unless the room is so small and the room gain is so great, that a deep bass house curve happens naturally.

Since you already have your subs in corners, I'm guessing that the room gain is not going to be sufficient for you to get the deep bass you are after. Ported subs are sort of the direct opposite of what I just described. Particularly with SVS subs, the lowest frequencies are relatively stronger compared to the mid-bass frequencies. When you turn-up the volume on the ported subs, the low-frequencies get emphasized a little more than the mid-bass frequencies, due to the way we perceive volume increases below about 50Hz, and especially below 30Hz, where the ported models have the biggest advantage.

So, I would recommend moving-up to the PB3000's, and the PB/PC4000's might work even better for your purposes. Either of those models would give you a great deal more of the deep bass you are after than your sealed SB3000's can. A single ported model will give you the equivalent of about three sealed models at very low-frequencies.

Regards,
Mike


Don’t forget, the content has to be there too. Like pushing my hand deeper into my pocket doesn’t make it have more money lol. If it’s movies your testing with, try something like hacksaw ridge that’s know to have very deep bass. Not sure T2 has much.
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post #31041 of 31357 Old 05-11-2019, 06:15 PM
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Ray-I have not got an answer to this in another thread . I use 8 inch Monitor audio in ceilings (CT280-IDC) with the rest of my MA gold 5.1.4 +PC4000s setup should I be using higher then 80 Hz with my ceiling height speakers even if they can handle it (is 100 or 120 better then 80 for ceilings)?

Right now all my speakers are just arbitrarily at 80 pre DIRAC since I heard 80 is safest/most common.

Is it better to keep all the crossovers the same or at times is it good to have the ceiling/heights at a higher crossovers then the rest?

Any opinions on this matter would be greatly appreciated thanks!

Also
While I use 80Hz all around, Towers/Center/the 4 surrounds and the front Ceiling Speakers.
The 2 rear Ceiling Speakers, are set at 90Hz on my system.
Since the rear ones had some vibrations from the ceiling (or could be something near-by, that I could not identified), when set at 80Hz.

That said, not too much lower frequencies normally go to the Surrounds and Ceiling speakers.
Therefore, 80Hz is a safe choice. Unless you hear something you don't like I did, if this happen.
Find the culprit speaker, and slowly increase in some increments of 10Hz for the pair. Until it all sound good.
I underline "for the pair". Since no matter if it is right/left surrounds, rear right/left surround and ceiling right/left. They should be done in pair, not individually.


Darth
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Last edited by darthray; 05-11-2019 at 06:32 PM.
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post #31042 of 31357 Old 05-11-2019, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Ray-I have not got an answer to this in another thread . I use 8 inch Monitor audio in ceilings (CT280-IDC) with the rest of my MA gold 5.1.4 +PC4000s setup should I be using higher then 80 Hz with my ceiling height speakers even if they can handle it (is 100 or 120 better then 80 for ceilings)?

Right now all my speakers are just arbitrarily at 80 pre DIRAC since I heard 80 is safest/most common.

Is it better to keep all the crossovers the same or at times is it good to have the ceiling/heights at a higher crossovers then the rest?

Any opinions on this matter would be greatly appreciated thanks!

Also
While I use 80Hz all around, Towers/Center/the 4 surrounds and the front Ceiling Speakers.
The 2 rear Ceiling Speakers, are set at 90Hz on my system.
Since the rear ones had some vibrations from the ceiling (or could be something near-by, that I could not identified), when set at 80Hz.

That said, not too much lower frequencies normally go to the Surrounds and Ceiling speakers.
Therefore, 80Hz is a safe choice. Unless you hear something you don't like I did, if this happen.
Find the culprit speaker, and slowly increase in some increments of 10Hz for the pair. Until it all sound good.
I underline "for the pair". Since no matter if it is right/left surrounds, rear right/left surround and ceiling right/left. They should be done in pair, not individually.


Darth
Thanks for the advice Darth and mthomas
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Last edited by Chirosamsung; 05-12-2019 at 11:53 AM.
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post #31043 of 31357 Old 05-12-2019, 01:10 PM
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Situation:
In my country the SB16 is about same price as PC4000. I have SB13u that has integrated nicely with the system. One sweet spot found for sub where allmost flat curve 17-200 except 50hz peak that i eq away ). Moving even 5-10 inch will lower the responce noticeable in curve.
Haven't found any other spot in the L- shaped house that is even close to as good so dual subs could bring more problems than cure.


My usage:
I mostly listen far from reference levels (-30 typical to - 20 max) but boost low freqs with DEQ And +-6db hot signal to subwoofer. Which of the two PC4000 or SB16 would suite my purpose better when looking more ultra low sounds (10-20hz) And tactile feeling?

Might have headroom to push SB13 more but i have itch for upgrade. Is it waste of money? Was initially considering PC4000 just to test ported but SB16 brings another element to the consider.


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post #31044 of 31357 Old 05-12-2019, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pau View Post
Situation:
In my country the SB16 is about same price as PC4000. I have SB13u that has integrated nicely with the system. One sweet spot found for sub where allmost flat curve 17-200 except 50hz peak that i eq away ). Moving even 5-10 inch will lower the responce noticeable in curve.
Haven't found any other spot in the L- shaped house that is even close to as good so dual subs could bring more problems than cure.


My usage:
I mostly listen far from reference levels (-30 typical to - 20 max) but boost low freqs with DEQ And +-6db hot signal to subwoofer. Which of the two PC4000 or SB16 would suite my purpose better when looking more ultra low sounds (10-20hz) And tactile feeling?

Might have headroom to push SB13 more but i have itch for upgrade. Is it waste of money? Was initially considering PC4000 just to test ported but SB16 brings another element to the consider.



Hi,

I have several thoughts. First, when you are positioning dual subs, it isn't just about finding the two best individual locations for the subs. It is about finding the locations where the subs will best reinforce each other. So, a dip at one frequency by one sub may be filled in with a peak at that same frequency by the other sub. You could very well be correct that you only have one good place for a subwoofer, but I don't think that you can be sure of that from the experiments you have performed with a single sub.

But, let's put that issue on hold for a moment and address your question. You want to upgrade. What would be the better upgrade for <20Hz SPL and tactile response: a PC4000 or an SB16? The answer to that is pretty easy. Rounding down for convenience, at 25Hz the PB4000 (in Extended mode) produces 110db, with 109db at 20Hz, and 107db at 16Hz. (The PC4000 is essentially identical to that.)

By comparison, the SB16 produces 106db at 25Hz (4db less), 100db at 20Hz (9db less), and only about 95db at 16Hz (a whopping 12db difference). The PC/PB4000 continues to have the advantage down to 12.5Hz (~1db) so even with the faster roll-off, the PC4000 is producing much more SPL than the SB16 down into the low-teens.

If you have read the last page or two, you know that a volume increase of about 5db at 30Hz and below is perceived as a doubling in loudness, so the PC4000 will be almost twice as loud as the SB16 at 25Hz, almost 4 times as loud at 20Hz, and well, you get the idea. There will be no comparison from 25Hz down to the low-teens.

The other aspect you mentioned was tactile response (TR). Ported subs produce much more low-bass TR than sealed subs, due to the action of the ports. Within about an octave of its port tune, a ported sub can produce a great deal more low-bass TR than an equivalent sealed sub. That is because low-bass TR is the product of both SPL and particle velocity. Section VIII-A of the Guide, linked below, explains this in much more detail if you are interested.

If more low-bass SPL and TR are what you are after, the PC4000 would give you a great deal more of both than the SB13 you have now, or the SB16 you are considering. I definitely don't think it would be a waste of money. As to whether you could benefit by adding another identical sub to whatever you end up with, that is another question. I think it is very possible that you might want to consider dual subs at some point. But, a single ported sub would still have the advantage, for the 20Hz down to low-teens frequencies, over dual sealed subs. And, it would also still have the advantage in low-bass TR.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 05-12-2019 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Typo
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I've been looking but cannot find any reviews that compare the SVS Elevation Atmos speakers to any other brand of Atmos speakers. Does anyone have any urls or can point me in the right direction?
Thanks in advance

Steve Douglas, McIntosh 8207 amp, Anthem AVM-60, Anthem MCA 50 amp, Aerial Acoustics 10T, CC3 center, AA5 and SR3 dipole/bipole, Velodyne Sub
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post #31046 of 31357 Old 05-12-2019, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I have several thoughts. First, when you are positioning dual subs, it isn't just about finding the two best individual locations for the subs. It is about finding the locations where the subs will best reinforce each other. So, a dip at one frequency by one sub may be filled in with a peak at that same frequency by the other sub. You could very well be correct that you only have one good place for a subwoofer, but I don't think that you can be sure of that from the experiments you have performed with a single sub.

But, let's put that issue on hold for a moment and address your question. You want to upgrade. What would be the better upgrade for <20Hz SPL and tactile response: a PC4000 or an SB16? The answer to that is pretty easy. Rounding down for convenience, at 25Hz the PB4000 (in Extended mode) produces 110db, with 109db at 20Hz, and 107db at 16Hz. (The PC4000 is essentially identical to that.)

By comparison, the SB16 produces 106db at 25Hz (4db less), 100db at 20Hz (9db less), and only about 95db at 16Hz (a whopping 12db difference). The PC/PB4000 continues to have the advantage down to 12.5Hz (~1db) so even with the faster roll-off, the PC4000 is producing much more SPL than the SB16 down into the low-teens.

If you have read the last page or two, you know that a volume increase of about 5db at 30Hz and below is perceived as a doubling in loudness, so the PC4000 will be almost twice as loud as the SB16 at 25Hz, almost 4 times as loud at 20Hz, and well, you get the idea. There will be no comparison from 25Hz down to the low-teens.

The other aspect you mentioned was tactile response (TR). Ported subs produce much more low-bass TR than sealed subs, due to the action of the ports. Within about an octave of its port tune, a ported sub can produce a great deal more low-bass TR than an equivalent sealed sub. That is because low-bass TR is the product of both SPL and particle velocity. Section VIII-A of the Guide, linked below, explains this in much more detail if you are interested.

If more low-bass SPL and TR are what you are after, the PC4000 would give you a great deal more of both than the SB13 you have now, or the SB16 you are considering. I definitely don't think it would be a waste of money. As to whether you could benefit by adding another identical sub to whatever you end up with, that is another question. I think it is very possible that you might want to consider dual subs at some point. But, a single ported sub would still have the advantage, for the 20Hz down to low-teens frequencies, over dual sealed subs. And, it would also still have the advantage in low-bass TR.

Regards,
Mike
Well, you learn something new everyday on this site
I would have thought, it should have been the other way around. Since the SVS PB/SB16 is their new Flagship

Thanks to add, once again to my Audio Education


Darth
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post #31047 of 31357 Old 05-12-2019, 06:22 PM
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I've been looking but cannot find any reviews that compare the SVS Elevation Atmos speakers to any other brand of Atmos speakers. Does anyone have any urls or can point me in the right direction?
Thanks in advance
While I do have the Elevation, and like the results for ceiling duty.
I also never saw any review pro/customers, that do either.

Not sure what other brand you are looking for, perhaps finding Threads on both from this site and others.
Can give you a general idea, of what end user like.
That said, when reading into a Thread. You Must learn to read between the line, since lots of user are Bias toward a certain brand.
For an example, I am Bias for Port Sub over a Seal one. And do try to mention-it, so the OP know-it when reading my post.


Darth

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post #31048 of 31357 Old 05-12-2019, 06:24 PM
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Well, you learn something new everyday on this site
I would have thought, it should have been the other way around. Since the SVS PB/SB16 is their new Flagship

Thanks to add, once again to my Audio Education

Darth

You and me both, Darth! There's always more to learn about this hobby of ours. A lot depends on the port tune, and the way the DSP controls the roll-off of the ported sub below it's tuning point. But in most cases, where the subwoofer models are even slightly comparable though, below about 35Hz or so, ported versus sealed really isn't a fair fight.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31049 of 31357 Old 05-12-2019, 06:40 PM
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You and me both, Darth! There's always more to learn about this hobby of ours. A lot depends on the port tune, and the way the DSP controls the roll-off of the ported sub below it's tuning point. But in most cases, where the subwoofer models are even slightly comparable though, below about 35Hz or so, ported versus sealed really isn't a fair fight.

Regards,
Mike
So true!

I am slowly going to the book, I have told you about. Around page 61 of 370, after 40 pages of introduction;
https://www.amazon.ca/Sound-Reproduc...r=8-1-fkmrnull
Lots of info, wrote in an Sound Scientist language. Got to read back a few times

So far, I have learn that No recording can be has accurate of the Live Sound, but some are closer to other.
Since we do not know, what Speakers/Mic/Engineer preference and so on..., when doing the recording.
And how it change our perception of sound, by listening below reference level.

Another Interesting point. Was most consumer like to listen below reference level. And Sound Engineer listen very loud, even more than Musician.
Very interesting research. And now getting into the juicy stuff about how we all perceive sound and preference for our Transducer (Speakers)


Darth
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Last edited by darthray; 05-12-2019 at 06:56 PM.
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post #31050 of 31357 Old 05-12-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve544 View Post
I've been looking but cannot find any reviews that compare the SVS Elevation Atmos speakers to any other brand of Atmos speakers. Does anyone have any urls or can point me in the right direction?
Thanks in advance

I'm far, far from a professional in this field, but I do have experience with 2 different models. I previously had (4) Klipsh RP-140SA and switched them out for (4) SVS Prime Elevations mounted to the ceiling. I cannot give a direct comparison as I built a house and the SVS were not used until the house was ready to go. I can say the experience is definitely different between the 2 sets. The Klipsch were not at all bad, they did give off a sound perception like it was coming from above (granted this all plays into how well the sound engineer mixes the track(s)), but the SVS are just more in your face which is to be expected, at least for myself, when you have overhead directly sending the ATMOS/DTS:X audio to your ears versus the bounce. If I had to do it over, I would definitely replace the bounce speakers.


Sorry for no URLs to link you to as that is what you asked for.

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