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post #31141 of 31234 Old 05-22-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pau View Post
Allready bought and getting it next weekend. Just speculating for now what ifs and how to best integrate it.
No need for speculation...that’s where Mike’s (mthomas47) guide comes in.
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post #31142 of 31234 Old 05-22-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by tommaazz View Post
I advise you to get a pair of sb3000 as that will be an upgrade from a pair of sb1000 (2000 wont be that huge upgrade but 3000 will be for sure)...if you can then just go for it. I went from two sb2000 to one sb13U a few years back and that also was quite an upgrade but added a 2nd sb13u a few months later as i couldnt live without a dual subs (once you taste dual you cant go back to single sub )...my living room is aprox. 1500 cubic feet. I had a ported sub before but i didnt like it as it exaggerated low freq too much for my taste but good pair of sealed sub is the heaven for me
In terms of sound quality, each of us have our own preferences. It would be helpful to know/understand (1) if your use case is primarily music or movies and (2) what ported subwoofer you previously had.
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post #31143 of 31234 Old 05-22-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tommaazz View Post
I advise you to get a pair of sb3000 as that will be an upgrade from a pair of sb1000 (2000 wont be that huge upgrade but 3000 will be for sure)...if you can then just go for it. I went from two sb2000 to one sb13U a few years back and that also was quite an upgrade but added a 2nd sb13u a few months later as i couldnt live without a dual subs (once you taste dual you cant go back to single sub )...my living room is aprox. 1500 cubic feet. I had a ported sub before but i didnt like it as it exaggerated low freq too much for my taste but good pair of sealed sub is the heaven for me
The story I hate to read so often here is the not significant enough upgrade, spending good money after bad only to be left underwhelmed. The one thing I've learned about bass, the only thing really as I still know nothing, is you have to overshoot what you think you need. I mean, you already know you want more. It's sometimes cheaper to just take any possibility of not overkilling it out of the cards vs. little one level up baby steps, buying a little more, wanting more, rinse & repeat until you eventually get there. I am here to submit, if there is any question, and it is self evident someone asking in a forum does have a question, then just go ahead and get much, much more than you'd ever possibly need. Then, you're done for sure. No expert or armchair opinions necessary.

IDK that it necessarily accomplishes the above, but dual PB3K's would be nice here, I think. I am a fan of those.

Last edited by Leon!; 05-22-2019 at 01:21 PM.
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post #31144 of 31234 Old 05-22-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post
The story I hate to read so often here is the not significant enough upgrade, spending good money after bad only to be left underwhelmed. The one thing I've learned about bass, the only thing really as I still know nothing, is you have to overshoot what you think you need. I mean, you already know you want more. It's sometimes cheaper to just take any possibility of not overkilling it out of the cards, than to take baby steps, buying and losing rinse & repeat until you eventually get there. I submit, if there's any question, and someone asking in a forum does have a question, then just go ahead and get much, much more than you'd ever possibly need. Then, you're done for sure.

IDK that it necessarily accomplishes the above, but dual PB3K's would be nice here, I think.
There is some degree of reality in your observations, comments, and conclusions. However, the greater reality is that everyone's needs and preferences are different. And until one has taken the time and effort to learn, understand, and experience what pleases you in terms of performance needs, the choices of others only reflect other's preferences...which may or may not mirror yours. As expressed often by many experienced users and professionals here, preferred/best bass performance is a nebulous term that is determined/governed objectively by use case/application, environment and subjectively by aesthetics and WAF. Once you gain an appropriate level of knowledge, you gotta hear it for yourself...and one of the best approaches is offered by SVS's Bill of Rights!

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Last edited by gene4ht; 05-22-2019 at 01:53 PM. Reason: typo
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post #31145 of 31234 Old 05-22-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by abba1 View Post
Quick question...presently I have duel sb1000 in a 1000 cu ft room connected to a Yamaha 1080. I am thinking about upgrading to duel sb2000 or sb3000. This will be for movies only. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.
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Originally Posted by tommaazz View Post
I advise you to get a pair of sb3000 as that will be an upgrade from a pair of sb1000 (2000 wont be that huge upgrade but 3000 will be for sure)...if you can then just go for it. I went from two sb2000 to one sb13U a few years back and that also was quite an upgrade but added a 2nd sb13u a few months later as i couldnt live without a dual subs (once you taste dual you cant go back to single sub )...my living room is aprox. 1500 cubic feet. I had a ported sub before but i didnt like it as it exaggerated low freq too much for my taste but good pair of sealed sub is the heaven for me


I think the last several posts have offered some excellent thoughts and advice. Like Darth, who commented earlier, I tend to be a fan of ported subs for movies. But, I also think it is important to keep things in perspective with respect to room size. A 1000^3 room is pretty small. That means two things. First, there will be a lot of room gain, starting at about 30Hz, and second, the subwoofers will be fairly close to the listening position(s).

A lot depends on the individual, but going from dual SB1000's, I think that dual ported subs bigger than the PB2000's could be a little bit overwhelming to many people in a space that size. With room gain already boosting the low-frequencies, it might be hard to play even the PB2000's with much volume. (Ported subs can sometimes sound boomier in more confined spaces, especially when tactile sensations increase our perceptions of low-bass.) I believe that not everyone likes as much tactile response, which ported subs produce more of, in a smaller room, at close quarters.

Gene's comment on the advisability of using the free-trial period is right on the mark, in my opinion. But, starting with two SB1000's in a 1000^3 room, I might lean toward a couple of SB3000's, unless the OP is certain that he wants a lot of additional low-bass SPL and tactile response. I believe it is likely that the dual SB3000's will be enough, and if they aren't, there will be several ported models the OP can try. I just thought I would add a different perspective on this.

Regards,
Mike
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post #31146 of 31234 Old 05-22-2019, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommaazz View Post
I advise you to get a pair of sb3000 as that will be an upgrade from a pair of sb1000 (2000 wont be that huge upgrade but 3000 will be for sure)...if you can then just go for it. I went from two sb2000 to one sb13U a few years back and that also was quite an upgrade but added a 2nd sb13u a few months later as i couldnt live without a dual subs (once you taste dual you cant go back to single sub [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] )...my living room is aprox. 1500 cubic feet. I had a ported sub before but i didnt like it as it exaggerated low freq too much for my taste but good pair of sealed sub is the heaven for me [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
The story I hate to read so often here is the not significant enough upgrade, spending good money after bad only to be left underwhelmed. The one thing I've learned about bass, the only thing really as I still know nothing, is you have to overshoot what you think you need. I mean, you already know you want more. It's sometimes cheaper to just take any possibility of not overkilling it out of the cards vs. little one level up baby steps, buying a little more, wanting more, rinse & repeat until you eventually get there. I am here to submit, if there is any question, and it is self evident someone asking in a forum does have a question, then just go ahead and get much, much more than you'd ever possibly need. Then, you're done for sure. No expert or armchair opinions necessary.

IDK that it necessarily accomplishes the above, but dual PB3K's would be nice here, I think. I am a fan of those.
This is my feeling as well. When I recently got my basement renovated and put in a new 5.1.4 I went with dual PC4000 even though it is a relatively small space. I would rather have MORE then enough bass then not enough. Well worth the cost of not ever having a case of the what if’s or having to spend more down the road when upgrading. Also nice having more then enough extra headroom/woofage.

Couldn’t be happier!
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post #31147 of 31234 Old 05-22-2019, 10:16 PM
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Ack! My 13 year old PB12 Plus/2 died.

Sucks because of how it happened. I noticed the green light was on when my system was off. Oops....must have bumped it off Auto. I flipped it back to Auto. The LED did not go red for 15 minutes so I power cycled the amp. I heard a hiss and it never powered back on. No light.

I took it apart. External fuse good. Thermistor good. 160vDC coming off transformer circuit. I have no schematic so cannot figure out test points for DC DC converter voltages.

I read about SVS selling new Sledge amps for the PB13. Not sure if they have an amp for my unit...the original 900w BASH.

Any ideas or is she a goner?
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post #31148 of 31234 Old 05-22-2019, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Eveci View Post
Ack! My 13 year old PB12 Plus/2 died.

Sucks because of how it happened. I noticed the green light was on when my system was off. Oops....must have bumped it off Auto. I flipped it back to Auto. The LED did not go red for 15 minutes so I power cycled the amp. I heard a hiss and it never powered back on. No light.

I took it apart. External fuse good. Thermistor good. 160vDC coming off transformer circuit. I have no schematic so cannot figure out test points for DC DC converter voltages.

I read about SVS selling new Sledge amps for the PB13. Not sure if they have an amp for my unit...the original 900w BASH.

Any ideas or is she a goner?
I'd contact SVS support, they are very responsive, and probably will be able to sell you the appropriate amp or diagnose the issue. Ed Mullin, of SVS, often participates in the discussion, so he may have something to add, as well.

https://www.svsound.com/pages/customer-service
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post #31149 of 31234 Old 05-23-2019, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon! View Post
The story I hate to read so often here is the not significant enough upgrade, spending good money after bad only to be left underwhelmed. The one thing I've learned about bass, the only thing really as I still know nothing, is you have to overshoot what you think you need. I mean, you already know you want more. It's sometimes cheaper to just take any possibility of not overkilling it out of the cards, than to take baby steps, buying and losing rinse & repeat until you eventually get there. I submit, if there's any question, and someone asking in a forum does have a question, then just go ahead and get much, much more than you'd ever possibly need. Then, you're done for sure.

IDK that it necessarily accomplishes the above, but dual PB3K's would be nice here, I think.
...the choices of others only reflect other's preferences...which may or may not mirror yours...
I was talking about those who come here complaining about being underwhelmed by their recent sub upgrade, how what they chose did not satisfy their own preferences, not mine

In those cases , it turns out their choice didn't fully reflect their preference, and that's the story I hate to read so often.

Last edited by Leon!; 05-23-2019 at 02:28 AM.
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post #31150 of 31234 Old 05-23-2019, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post
I was talking about those who come here complaining about being underwhelmed by their recent sub upgrade, how what they chose did not satisfy their own preferences, not mine

In those cases , it turns out their choice didn't fully reflect their preference, and that's the story I hate to read so often.
Exactly, my apologies if it appeared my reference was to you specifically. Quite the opposite...we’re talking about the same thing.
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post #31151 of 31234 Old 05-23-2019, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
This is my feeling as well. When I recently got my basement renovated and put in a new 5.1.4 I went with dual PC4000 even though it is a relatively small space. I would rather have MORE then enough bass then not enough. Well worth the cost of not ever having a case of the what if’s or having to spend more down the road when upgrading. Also nice having more then enough extra headroom/woofage.

Couldn’t be happier!

Yes, the solution to having erred on the side of too much sub is better, to me, than going the other way, can just turn it down.
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Originally Posted by Leon! View Post
I was talking about those who come here complaining about being underwhelmed by their recent sub upgrade, how what they chose did not satisfy their own preferences, not mine

In those cases , it turns out their choice didn't fully reflect their preference, and that's the story I hate to read so often.


Yeah, I think a lot of people come in thinking that “I had a 10” sealed JL that totally destroyed my car when I was in high school”, why is this single ported 12” not pressurizing my 8000cuft concrete bunker basement? Or they plop it down in the best “looking” location and don’t properly integrate it. Or they come in thinking they know what they want, done some research, ask all the questions, but really only want confirmation. Not advice.
I think truthfully, many people just don’t know what to expect. Therefore the expectation isn’t met more than the preference isn’t.
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post #31153 of 31234 Old 05-23-2019, 06:21 AM
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Yeah, I think a lot of people come in thinking that “I had a 10” sealed JL that totally destroyed my car when I was in high school”, why is this single ported 12” not pressurizing my 8000cuft concrete bunker basement? Or they plop it down in the best “looking” location and don’t properly integrate it. Or they come in thinking they know what they want, done some research, ask all the questions, but really only want confirmation. Not advice.
I think truthfully, many people just don’t know what to expect. Therefore the expectation isn’t met more than the preference isn’t.
That’s exactly why Mike’s (mthomas47) Guide is a MUST read for everyone...it’s the “sticky of stickies.” Many buyers are wholly dependent on unrelated experiences, opinions, and anecdotal evidence rather than the knowledge that science and actual facts offer.

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[quote=drh3b;58087160]I'd contact SVS support, they are very responsive, and probably will be able to sell you the appropriate amp or diagnose the issue. Ed Mullin, of SVS, often participates in the discussion, so he may have something to add, as well.


Did that this morning! They have an amp!!!!! Ordering it today. Wow - what a company. A 13 year old amazing piece of equipment that a company is still willing to service and help with. Ted @ SVS was great. Can't wait to get my bass back!! I wish more companies like SVS existed. Such a rare breed.
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post #31155 of 31234 Old 05-23-2019, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Yeah, I think a lot of people come in thinking that “I had a 10” sealed JL that totally destroyed my car when I was in high school”, why is this single ported 12” not pressurizing my 8000cuft concrete bunker basement? Or they plop it down in the best “looking” location and don’t properly integrate it. Or they come in thinking they know what they want, done some research, ask all the questions, but really only want confirmation. Not advice.
I think truthfully, many people just don’t know what to expect. Therefore the expectation isn’t met more than the preference isn’t.

I think that's a great point! Getting expectations, preferences, and reality to align is not a simple process. Most of us, absolutely including myself, have had to work at it.

I also think that both expectations and preferences evolve, as people begin to experience higher-quality and lower-frequency bass. I believe that's especially true for watching movies in our HT's, with low-frequency special effects which can easily exceed what we are accustomed to experiencing in commercial movie theaters.

So, even in those instances where initial expectations and preferences do align, they may change over time, as we realize how much we enjoy having higher-quality and lower-frequency bass. I think that all of those factors influence the subwoofer upgraditis which most of us have experienced. The advice to go with more subwoofage than we might initially think we will need is good advice, particularly for the type of people who come to AVS.

Regards,
Mike

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post #31156 of 31234 Old 05-23-2019, 03:44 PM
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[quote=Eveci;58088520]
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I'd contact SVS support, they are very responsive, and probably will be able to sell you the appropriate amp or diagnose the issue. Ed Mullin, of SVS, often participates in the discussion, so he may have something to add, as well.


Did that this morning! They have an amp!!!!! Ordering it today. Wow - what a company. A 13 year old amazing piece of equipment that a company is still willing to service and help with. Ted @ SVS was great. Can't wait to get my bass back!! I wish more companies like SVS existed. Such a rare breed.
Happy to help. We do still have some BASH amps for the dual driver subwoofers - and it's great to see you are keeping the classic running! I have dual Ultra/2 subs in one of my systems - still cranking out great bass.

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post #31157 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 12:06 AM
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[quote=Ed Mullen;58090572]
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Originally Posted by Eveci View Post

Happy to help. We do still have some BASH amps for the dual driver subwoofers - and it's great to see you are keeping the classic running! I have dual Ultra/2 subs in one of my systems - still cranking out great bass.
I'm curious, what are you using for your main system? Pb16s?

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post #31158 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by abba1 View Post
Quick question...presently I have duel sb1000 in a 1000 cu ft room connected to a Yamaha 1080. I am thinking about upgrading to duel sb2000 or sb3000. This will be for movies only. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.
It's a small room which will likely be prone to a mid-bass null (standing wave cancellation). So I would stay with duals to help fill-in that null (try opposite diagonal corners) and go with the dual SB-2000s. They will have similar mid/upper bass dynamics as a single SB-3000 and better dynamic output <35 Hz.
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post #31159 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bonscott View Post
Looking to add a second sub. My only location that works is on a back wall which would require
A cable up the wall or across the floor. SVS wireless transmitter is an option. Wondering if you can run it with one sub hardwired
And the other wireless
The wireless connection will introduce about 25 ms of latency. So you'll need to adjust the phase control on the rear sub to get optimal blending/integration with the front wired subwoofer. While this can be done by ear, using something like REW and a UMIK-1 to measure the combined FR is very helpful.

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post #31160 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 05:51 AM
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The wireless connection will introduce about 25 ms of latency. So you'll need to adjust the phase control on the rear sub to get optimal blending/integration with the front wired subwoofer. While this can be done by ear, using something like REW and a UMIK-1 to measure the combined FR is very helpful.
Can this be done using audyssey on my Denon AVR-X6200W
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Can this be done using audyssey on my Denon AVR-X6200W
Yes, but it's a bit clunky and slow - since you need to re-run XT32 each time you make a change to the subwoofer location/phase, and then pull-up the 'before' graph for the subwoofer channel.

With REW and the UMIK-1, you can generate a new FR graphs in seconds, making the dial-in process much quicker. The graph size/resolution is better too, naturally.

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post #31162 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 06:27 AM
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[quote=DarkEnigma;58091926]
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

I'm curious, what are you using for your main system? Pb16s?
That is my main 7.2.4 system - the Ultra/2 cabinets are the same height/finish as my entertainment center, so they are staying. I run them in sealed mode, and that room has lots of room gain - response is flat to 10 Hz.

I have a PB16-Ultra in my living room 5.1 system - that's staying too because I don't feel like moving it.
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post #31163 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 08:07 AM
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Can this be done using audyssey on my Denon AVR-X6200W
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Yes, but it's a bit clunky and slow - since you need to re-run XT32 each time you make a change to the subwoofer location/phase, and then pull-up the 'before' graph for the subwoofer channel.

With REW and the UMIK-1, you can generate a new FR graphs in seconds, making the dial-in process much quicker. The graph size/resolution is better too, naturally.
Ed, even if you feel Audyssey is too clunky and slow, wouldn't it be better to use the distance adjustments in the AVR rather than the phase-adjustment? With REW and the phase control you may end up with phase-alignment but not time-alignment. The two subs can end up period(s) apart.
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post #31164 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 08:44 AM
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Ed, even if you feel Audyssey is too clunky and slow, wouldn't it be better to use the distance adjustments in the AVR rather than the phase-adjustment? With REW and the phase control you may end up with phase-alignment but not time-alignment. The two subs can end up period(s) apart.
If he opts for dual subwoofers in the set-up assistant, XT32 will set the distance for each subwoofer strictly based on the amount of time it takes for the ping to reach the microphone.

There are two potential issues with this approach - 1) the required distance for the rear wireless subwoofer may exceed the distance limitation in the AVR (we see this pretty frequently actually) and 2) strictly time-aligning both subwoofers may not actually result in an optimal FR - I have seen this create a significant phase cancellation.

Provided the distance limit in the AVR is not exceeded for the wireless subwoofer, the OP can stay with the two sub set-up in the AVR (and your point is well taken). If the distances set by XT32 result in phase cancellation, then he can tweak the distance settings for the subwoofers and re-measure to see if the phase cancellation can be minimized. The only issue here is that XT32 can't be re-run at this point to optimize the EQ filters which were already built for the combined subwoofer response.

The other option is to specify a single subwoofer in the AVR, run both subwoofers off the same feed, measure the combined FR of both subwoofers, adjust the phase as needed to obtain the smoothest combined FR, and then running XT32 and allowing it to select a single subwoofer distance and then re-assessing the combined FR again to see if the single distance setting introduced any additional phase anomalies.


In the end - I've never been a fan of wired/wireless subwoofers due to the latency and the issues it creates - so my preference is always wired/wired if possible.

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post #31165 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 09:12 AM
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In the end - I've never been a fan of wired/wireless subwoofers due to the latency and the issues it creates - so my preference is always wired/wired if possible.
Amen. Thanks Ed!
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post #31166 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 09:58 AM
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I hate to betray my ignorance, but goes. I was reading with interest ''cascading crossovers'' in mthomas' ''Guide to Subwoofer Calibration.'' In the Setting Procedure'' there are listed three steps. For the life of me I cannot see a difference between step one (setting speaker crossovers in the AVR) and step two (implementing an LPF of LFE to match speaker crossovers). As a side note I have a pair of SVS SB1000's and a Yamaha 1080. Thanks in advance.
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post #31167 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 11:29 AM
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LFE is a channel for itself - containing low frequency (movie) effects.

In the system which has it, subwoofer is used both for LFE channel and for low frequency sound redirected from (small) speakers by bass management.

https://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/...nal/38_LFE.pdf
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post #31168 of 31234 Old 05-24-2019, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
If he opts for dual subwoofers in the set-up assistant, XT32 will set the distance for each subwoofer strictly based on the amount of time it takes for the ping to reach the microphone.

There are two potential issues with this approach - 1) the required distance for the rear wireless subwoofer may exceed the distance limitation in the AVR (we see this pretty frequently actually) and 2) strictly time-aligning both subwoofers may not actually result in an optimal FR - I have seen this create a significant phase cancellation.

Provided the distance limit in the AVR is not exceeded for the wireless subwoofer, the OP can stay with the two sub set-up in the AVR (and your point is well taken). If the distances set by XT32 result in phase cancellation, then he can tweak the distance settings for the subwoofers and re-measure to see if the phase cancellation can be minimized. The only issue here is that XT32 can't be re-run at this point to optimize the EQ filters which were already built for the combined subwoofer response.

The other option is to specify a single subwoofer in the AVR, run both subwoofers off the same feed, measure the combined FR of both subwoofers, adjust the phase as needed to obtain the smoothest combined FR, and then running XT32 and allowing it to select a single subwoofer distance and then re-assessing the combined FR again to see if the single distance setting introduced any additional phase anomalies.


In the end - I've never been a fan of wired/wireless subwoofers due to the latency and the issues it creates - so my preference is always wired/wired if possible.
So what is your opinion on a wireless/wireless setup
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post #31169 of 31234 Old 05-25-2019, 06:38 AM
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So what is your opinion on a wireless/wireless setup
At least both subwoofers will have the same latency, which makes phasing them easier. Provided the AVR can accommodate the distance limitation (and some cannot) - I'm generally fine with a wireless/wireless set-up.

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post #31170 of 31234 Old 05-25-2019, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
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I hate to betray my ignorance, but goes. I was reading with interest ''cascading crossovers'' in mthomas' ''Guide to Subwoofer Calibration.'' In the Setting Procedure'' there are listed three steps. For the life of me I cannot see a difference between step one (setting speaker crossovers in the AVR) and step two (implementing an LPF of LFE to match speaker crossovers). As a side note I have a pair of SVS SB1000's and a Yamaha 1080. Thanks in advance.
Here's the dirty and easy way.
While you say you cannot find the crossover section, it is in available in all AVR now a day. You might be looking into the wrong place

Once there set your speakers at 80Hz for now, you can experiment later with lower/higher crossover settings.
Since cascading crossovers only involve the sub/s. try this;
-Set your LFE on your AVR to either 80 or 90Hz, instead of the default 120 Hz.
-Set your sub/s on back controls, at the same value (80 or 90Hz).

And your are done, other than experimenting what sound best to you.


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