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post #31351 of 31454 Old 07-15-2019, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Yes and no! It depends on the specific design. For instance, SVS sealed subwoofers have drivers that are specifically optimized for operation as sealed subs, whereas the ported subwoofers have drivers which are optimized for porting. But, the differences can be subtle, since the better/more expensive ported models are also designed to be versatile enough to operate as sealed subs, and the frequency responses and sound qualities are fairly close to that of the sealed models.

The other prerequisite to convert a ported subwoofer, which is also designed to operate as a sealed subwoofer (besides plugging the ports to seal the cabinets), is to change the DSP in the subwoofer's amplifier. That controls at what frequencies SPL is apportioned to the sub, and the sub's roll-off. With SVS subs, that is done using the digital GUI. With other subwoofer companies, such as some ported HSU subs, that is done directly on the plate amp.

It should go without saying that only ported subwoofers which are specifically designed to also operate as sealed subwoofers should have their ports completely plugged. And, even where they are designed to operate that way, it is important to match the port plug to the DSP.

Just to wrap-up this post, I would personally prefer to operate a ported sub as a ported sub, and a sealed sub as a sealed sub, but the versatility to do both has always been appealing to some people, and it remains a trademark of the top-of-the-line SVS ported subs.

Regards,
Mike
Great post. Thanks for the education
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post #31352 of 31454 Old 07-16-2019, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
Hi

I have a few questions for anyone whos kind enough to answer.

I have dual SVS PB 1600 Ultras in a 7.2 setup

I dont have a dedicated room , but the room is kind of rectangle .

Basically a 7m x 5m room with an open room attatched on the far back side. The smaller room is around 3.5m x 3.5m

I do have some room treatment going on as well . All the windows are sealed with thick MDF boards and curtains as well as acoustic pin board

So basically, im trying to determine the best location for these two large subs.

Im using REW /Umik

I use ARC Genesis to calibrate via an AVM 60

Theres a large dip that occurs no matter where i place the subs.
...
REW Graph shows current position measurements .

Have you used REW's excellent Room Simulator yet?


It is amazing! By moving the sub(s) around, it creates a feeling on which wall, or which corners certain problems are reduced or emphasized.




Then use some cables, move the speakers to these positions and give the theoretical positions a try. The difference can blow you away.
The difference can be so dramatic, that trying different speaker placement and the MLP could also become an additonal option.



No amount of equipment can overcome physics. Always work with the laws of nature. In that case, find the mathematical good locations with REW and then fine tune and decide for the best compromise of sound and usability.
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Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.

Last edited by Skinfax1; 07-16-2019 at 07:55 AM.
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post #31353 of 31454 Old 07-16-2019, 08:39 AM
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Well after having the BIC F12 for 8 years it is time for an upgrade. Went with the SVS PB-3000. Did alot of research here and decided on this model. Should be here end of next week. Until then i'm going to relearn how to setup and adjust the new sub. I'm excited to see how the new subs sounds.
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post #31354 of 31454 Old 07-16-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Bodyslide View Post
Well after having the BIC F12 for 8 years it is time for an upgrade. Went with the SVS PB-3000. Did alot of research here and decided on this model. Should be here end of next week. Until then i'm going to relearn how to setup and adjust the new sub. I'm excited to see how the new subs sounds.
You are in for quite a pleasant surprise.

 
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post #31355 of 31454 Old 07-16-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Bodyslide View Post
Well after having the BIC F12 for 8 years it is time for an upgrade. Went with the SVS PB-3000. Did alot of research here and decided on this model. Should be here end of next week. Until then i'm going to relearn how to setup and adjust the new sub. I'm excited to see how the new subs sounds.
Congrats...and if you haven’t already, a good place to start is...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html

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You are in for quite a pleasant surprise.
+1 Totally agree!
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post #31356 of 31454 Old 07-16-2019, 11:42 AM
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Thanks, I have been reading what seems like now for the past 2 weeks prior to the purchase.

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post #31357 of 31454 Old 07-17-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Zelko,

The whole business of tuning modes can get a little complicated, especially with as many models, and options within models, as SVS has. First, the subwoofer being discussed in the post you quoted is the SB3000 ("S" for sealed models; "P" for ported models). Sealed subwoofers have cabinets that are literally sealed to the outside air. They have no portholes or ventilation slots to move air in-and-out, giving them lower frequency SPL. So, they can only operate as sealed subs.

And, that's a good thing, in this case, because the OP was concerned about disturbing his neighbors, and the low-frequency SPL from a ported sub would be much more likely to do that than the low-frequency SPL (and low-frequency tactile response) from a sealed sub. Mid-bass frequencies aren't quite as big a problem, because they won't travel as far, and the vibrations from those frequencies won't move the floor, or other structural elements, as much as very low-frequencies can at higher volume levels.

Second, the PB3000 (the ported version of the SB3000 we were discussing) has just two tuning options: ported and sealed (sealed plugs both the ports to create a sealed cabinet). The Ultra subwoofer lines, above the PB3000, have three tuning options. They are the same for the PB/PC4000 and for the PB16: Extended (16Hz with one port plugged), Standard (20Hz with two ports plugged), and Sealed (all three ports plugged to create a sealed cabinet).

With respect to what people would pick for what size room, there would be a strong component of personal preference to the choice. But, in general, I think that people in a smaller room would be a little more likely to pick the Standard 20Hz mode, and people in a larger room would be more likely to pick the Extended 16Hz mode. That is because in a smaller room, there would be much more <20Hz room gain available, and the 16Hz mode might not seem as necessary or as desirable.

In a much larger room, the room gain would commence at a lower frequency, and the magnitude of the gain would not be as great. In that case, the lower tuning mode of 16Hz might be much more desirable, because the subwoofer would be producing much more SPL <20Hz than the Standard mode would. Those are just generalizations, though. Different individuals might make very different choices in exactly the same size room.

I hope this explanation helps!

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike,

If you don't mind I had one question regarding standard and extended mode with my PB16. I know that above 20hz the standard mode is stronger but when in extended mode above 20hz to about 60hz you lose about 1.5db but gain 9db under 20hz. So what I'm asking is with my normal 6db boost without DEQ will I be losing some boost above 20hz and gaining more under 20hz when using extended mode.
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post #31358 of 31454 Old 07-18-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Thanks Mike,

If you don't mind I had one question regarding standard and extended mode with my PB16. I know that above 20hz the standard mode is stronger but when in extended mode above 20hz to about 60hz you lose about 1.5db but gain 9db under 20hz. So what I'm asking is with my normal 6db boost without DEQ will I be losing some boost above 20hz and gaining more under 20hz when using extended mode.

Hi Zelko,

DEQ is a software program that operates in a fixed and predictable way. It adds bass (and a little bit of treble) to all of the channels, including the subwoofer(s), based entirely on your master volume. Section V of the Guide explains how the boost is added at different master volume levels, so I won't repeat that here.

When you add an independent subwoofer boost, you are doing some of the same things that DEQ does. The difference is that instead of your boost having a slope of its own, with more boost added at lower frequencies, your subwoofer boost will be uniform (6db, in this case) across the full operating bandwidth of the subwoofer. So, your 6db boost will occur both above and below 20Hz, irrespective of which mode you are in, including sealed mode.

The differences in the practical effect of your 6db boost, however, will depend on your mode. That is because your boost will still be subject to the same shape of frequency response that the subwoofer starts with, depending on the selected mode and on your room. So, if you are getting 1.5db more above 60Hz in Standard mode, the 6db will add to that, and if you are getting 9db more at 16.5Hz in Extended mode, the 6db will add to that.

It is entirely a matter of personal preference (with room influences and TR as part of that equation) whether you prefer Standard mode with a 6db sub boost, or Extended mode with a 6db sub boost, or some other combination entirely. But, you will, in any case, simply be boosting whatever your subs are already doing, and your boost will still be subject to the same natural roll-off that would already be occurring.

I know that may sound a little complicated, but I hope that the explanation helps! Just think of a subwoofer boost as increasing the volume of the frequencies that the subwoofer is already playing.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31359 of 31454 Old 07-18-2019, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Zelko,

DEQ is a software program that operates in a fixed and predictable way. It adds bass (and a little bit of treble) to all of the channels, including the subwoofer(s), based entirely on your master volume. Section V of the Guide explains how the boost is added at different master volume levels, so I won't repeat that here.

When you add an independent subwoofer boost, you are doing some of the same things that DEQ does. The difference is that instead of your boost having a slope of its own, with more boost added at lower frequencies, your subwoofer boost will be uniform (6db, in this case) across the full operating bandwidth of the subwoofer. So, your 6db boost will occur both above and below 20Hz, irrespective of which mode you are in, including sealed mode.

The differences in the practical effect of your 6db boost, however, will depend on your mode. That is because your boost will still be subject to the same shape of frequency response that the subwoofer starts with, depending on the selected mode and on your room. So, if you are getting 1.5db more above 60Hz in Standard mode, the 6db will add to that, and if you are getting 9db more at 16.5Hz in Extended mode, the 6db will add to that.

It is entirely a matter of personal preference (with room influences and TR as part of that equation) whether you prefer Standard mode with a 6db sub boost, or Extended mode with a 6db sub boost, or some other combination entirely. But, you will, in any case, simply be boosting whatever your subs are already doing, and your boost will still be subject to the same natural roll-off that would already be occurring.

I know that may sound a little complicated, but I hope that the explanation helps! Just think of a subwoofer boost as increasing the volume of the frequencies that the subwoofer is already playing.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you my friend,

Totally understand and it makes plenty of sense. Was actually thinking that would be the answer but wanted it confirmed by a higher authority.

Regards
Z
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post #31360 of 31454 Old 07-18-2019, 05:12 PM
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Thank you my friend,

Totally understand and it makes plenty of sense. Was actually thinking that would be the answer but wanted it confirmed by a higher authority.

Regards
Z

You are very welcome! I don't really think of myself as a higher authority, but I appreciate the compliment!
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31361 of 31454 Old 07-19-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DT4 View Post
I have a different but related question.
How does one decide based in REW or any other measurements if a SVS sub upgrade will help or if the current sub just does not have enough power?

Just measure at lower SPL levels, too and compare the soft and loud measurements.
Compare THD, frequency response and impulse response.

If there are significant differences between the softer and the loud measurement, you have an indication that the amplifier/speaker system could have a problem somewhere.
Say you measure @65 dB(a) and @105 db (a). In REW just shift the softer measurement graph +40 dB to make both curves overlay. (during the measuring phase, make sure you always are standing in the same position with the same posture, otherwise that will result in measured differences not originating from the system but your body).



If the louder measurement shows a higher THD, or even a less clean and snappy transient response compared to the softer measurement then that indicates, that the amp/speaker system could be stressed.


If the measurement data are almost identical, you know the system is not lacking power but there is a problem somewhere else (probably acoustics).


Don't be a Marxist. Work with mother nature, not against it! That means let the laws of physics tell you, what to do.


REW has a great room simulator, too.
Use it to find inspiration for the best positions for speakers, sub and listening positions.
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Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #31362 of 31454 Old 07-19-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Just measure at lower SPL levels, too and compare the soft and loud measurements.
Compare THD, frequency response and impulse response.

If there are significant differences between the softer and the loud measurement, you have an indication that the amplifier/speaker system could have a problem somewhere.
Say you measure @65 dB(a) and @105 db (a). In REW just shift the softer measurement graph +40 dB to make both curves overlay. (during the measuring phase, make sure you always are standing in the same position with the same posture, otherwise that will result in measured differences not originating from the system but your body).



If the louder measurement shows a higher THD, or even a less clean and snappy transient response compared to the softer measurement then that indicates, that the amp/speaker system could be stressed.


If the measurement data are almost identical, you know the system is not lacking power but there is a problem somewhere else (probably acoustics).


Don't be a Marxist. Work with mother nature, not against it! That means let the laws of physics tell you, what to do.


REW has a great room simulator, too.
Use it to find inspiration for the best positions for speakers, sub and listening positions.
I had the same question. So thank you for the answer.
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post #31363 of 31454 Old 07-19-2019, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

You are very welcome! I like helping when I can, and I'm trying to be a good sport about this, but these are about the last questions I'm going to have time to answer.

I think that music is not recorded to any kind of a standard. In general, however, a reasonably flat frequency response may best reflect artistic intent. For the type of music I like to listen to, I don't personally like to add much bass to whatever is in the recording, as long as I have a fairly flat frequency response to start with. But, that's just a matter of personal preference. Even if we could actually define artistic intent, it may be a higher priority for some people than it is for others. Audio enjoyment is subjective, and we may all like different bass levels, for different content, at different times.

If we are looking for absolute rules, I believe that we have picked the wrong subject in which to find them. The terms that you mentioned represent hearing impressions. They are essentially subjective in nature, and I don't know what objective measurements you could use to define and verify those subjective descriptions. The only impressions that really matter, anyway, are your own. What do you hear, and what do you like when you hear it?

In my opinion, buying a different subwoofer and testing it in your room, with your other equipment, and with your preferred listening content, is the only way that you will be 100% sure that an upgrade is worth it. There are usually people in our geographical areas who will let us audition other equipment in their HT's, though, and that is also something you could try. Here is a link to the last page of a thread where those auditions are offered:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...thread-24.html

If you continue to be curious about whether a subwoofer upgrade would be worthwhile, I would probably take advantage of SVS's 45-day trial period with free return shipping. If you decide that there is no audible advantage to having a newer and more powerful model, you would simply return the sub for a full refund.

In that case, I would recommend trying either the sealed SB3000, since you are 100% music, or the PB3000 which has both a ported and sealed mode that you could compare with each other. This is the only way I know to be sure whether an upgrade will be worthwhile to you. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

Let me know if you like this method for finding out if I need an upgrade of not.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...3&share_type=t
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post #31364 of 31454 Old 07-20-2019, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Hi Mike,

Let me know if you like this method for finding out if I need an upgrade of not.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...3&share_type=t

Hi,

Sure, I think that the method mentioned a couple of posts before this one is fine. Something else you could do to test the limitations of your subwoofer, in your room, would be to perform a compression test. That would actually be a little simpler to perform using REW. I am linking Data-Bass test results for your subwoofer, performing long-term output sweeps.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5b11...9d6d?_k=awycma

Where some frequencies stop getting louder (compressing) in relation to other frequencies, your subwoofer is running out of headroom. You will note that the graphed frequency responses show the graph lines getting closer together, at about 100db (2m outdoors) especially at lower frequencies. The lowest frequencies are where most subwoofers exhibit the earliest indications of compression. This is a pretty easy test to perform. You just keep increasing the volume, in 5db increments, to determine where you start to run out of headroom.

But, there is something missing from both of these tests. And, that is the human element---you, in other words! The tests will show you the limits of your subwoofer, at that position, in your room. But, the tests still won't tell you whether or not you need an upgrade, because you may or may not actually listen at the volume levels required to produce distortion or compression for your subwoofer. Knowing your subwoofer's limits is only helpful if you ever actually reach those limits.

This is an important point that I have tried to make to you before. If you are satisfied with your current subwoofer performance (perhaps including confirmation that your sub is not distorting or compressing at your normal listening levels) then there is no reason to consider an upgrade, purely from the standpoint of output. But, the key is still your listening levels, in relation to your subwoofer's output limitations, and your satisfaction level. If you are truly satisfied with your current subwoofer performance, then why worry about this at all?

If on the other hand, your curiosity about an upgrade persists, then the only real way that you will know whether an upgrade would be worthwhile for you would be to try a better and more powerful subwoofer. You don't know what you don't know! Until you compare something else to what you have now, you will never know whether or not you are actually missing anything, especially with respect to the frequencies under about 20 or 25Hz, because that's where the PB12-NSD really starts to roll-off.

In that case, as previously stated, I would recommend an SB3000, or a PB3000 if you can afford it, because either version will be a better subwoofer in every respect than the one you have now. In my personal opinion, there really isn't a better answer to your question about whether or not you need an upgrade.

Regards,
Mike


PS: As a personal note, like many SVS owners, I started with a PC12-NSD as my first "good" subwoofer. And, I enjoyed it! It was only when I became curious about what I might have been missing with respect to the lowest frequencies that I started to upgrade. And, in my large room, on concrete, I found the differences to be profound. But, that is really a YMMV issue.

There is no reason to even consider an upgrade, if you are truly satisfied with your current performance, or unless you are truly curious about whether you are missing anything. And, there is only one way to satisfy that curiosity about whether you are missing anything. That is to try something else to compare to what you are used to.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-20-2019 at 11:22 AM. Reason: Clarification
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post #31365 of 31454 Old 07-20-2019, 01:00 PM
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Budget $3000

Hello,
I have dual pb 2000's but after hearing the pb 4000, I think my final setup would have two pb 4000's in addition to the 2000's. What are subs should I look at in this price range? I listen to music 10 %, and home theater 90% of the time. I know it's an SVS thread, but I know you guys are open minded about other brands too. Total budget for subs is $3000. Thank you.


Sincerely,

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post #31366 of 31454 Old 07-20-2019, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
Hello,
I have dual pb 2000's but after hearing the pb 4000, I think my final setup would have two pb 4000's in addition to the 2000's. What are subs should I look at in this price range? I listen to music 10 %, and home theater 90% of the time. I know it's an SVS thread, but I know you guys are open minded about other brands too. Total budget for subs is $3000. Thank you.


Sincerely,
Go look at the PSA V1811.
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post #31367 of 31454 Old 07-20-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
Hello,
I have dual pb 2000's but after hearing the pb 4000, I think my final setup would have two pb 4000's in addition to the 2000's. What are subs should I look at in this price range? I listen to music 10 %, and home theater 90% of the time. I know it's an SVS thread, but I know you guys are open minded about other brands too. Total budget for subs is $3000. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Hi Dan,

That's a pretty open-ended question, especially for an SVS thread. The Rythmik FV18 and the PSA V1811 are subs that you could also consider.

But, I think that the more important questions are what you are hoping to accomplish with an expenditure of ~$3000 and whether you would be able to use the PB2000's with whatever additional subs you bought? As a general rule, it is not that easy to combine subwoofers with different port tunes. That will generally result in cancellation (no bass) somewhere at or slightly above the port tune of the higher-tuned sub.

With the PB4000 or the FV18, the PB2000 would have the higher port tune. With the V1811, the V1811 might have a slightly higher port tune. But, in all cases, there would be cancellation somewhere around 20Hz and below, and you might actually lose some low-frequency SPL compared to what you have now.

It's actually much better to have identical ported subs, if at all possible, unless you have the means to measure your frequency response and to make potential corrections with a miniDSP. Automated room correction won't help with the problem I am describing.

So, for instance, you could add two more PB2000's. That would give you 6db more max output than you have now, and potentially, an even better frequency response. Or, you could sell/trade-in the PB2000's for two PB4000's. That would give you more low-frequency SPL than four PB2000's would, and more of everything else than your current PB2000's, including innately better sound quality than you have now.

Another option would be to switch to dual PSA V1811's. You still wouldn't want to use your PB2000's, though, as the overall frequency response would be completely different. The V1811's would have much more mid-bass than your PB2000's and more than a pair of PB4000's. But, they would fall short of the PB4000's below 20Hz where many movie special effects are heard and felt.

The Rythmik FV18's would go even lower in frequency than the PB4000's, but they would have a somewhat lighter and clearer sound signature, and they would also have less low-bass tactile response (TR) than the PB4000's. If you were 90/10 music/movies instead of the other way around, you might really like the FV18's. As it is, I can't be sure that you wouldn't prefer the slightly warmer and more robust sound and feel of the SVS subs.

That's about the best I can do. If you like the sound and tactile sensations of your PB2000's, I would either add two more of them, or even better, I would buy dual PB/PC4000's. I would not mix the PB2000's and the PB4000's, though. Or, if I wanted to try something entirely different, I would sell the PB2000's, and try the V1811's (excellent mid-bass specialists, with good chest thump and decent extension) or the FV18's (excellent mid-bass and extension, with a lighter/clearer sound signature and a little less low-bass TR).

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 07-20-2019 at 03:52 PM. Reason: Typo
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post #31368 of 31454 Old 07-20-2019, 02:11 PM
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Mike,
That's about all? Lol! That's a crazy informative response. I guess if I were to upgrade, I'd still want my subterranean bass. I'm surprised how well the pb 2000's do for music. I will probably sell the pb 2000's when I do the upgrading, and I'm sure someone will enjoy them as much as I have. I love the extension of the ported SVS subs, and I was also thinking since the pb 4000 is a variable tune subwoofer, I can just seal it up for music. Thanks for the detailed response Mike! Your passion comes through in the well thought out responses, and the details you provided sealed the deal with me. Now I just have to save up for them!


Sincerely,
Dan





Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Dan,

That's a pretty open-ended question, especially for an SVS thread. The Rythmik FV18 and the PSA V1811 are subs that you could also consider.

But, I think that the more important questions are what you are hoping to accomplish with an expenditure of ~$3000 and whether you would be able to use the PB2000's with whatever additional subs you bought? As a general rule, it is not that easy to combine subwoofers with different port tunes. That will generally result in cancellation (no bass) somewhere at or slightly above the port tune of the higher-tuned sub.

With the PB4000 or the FV18, the PB2000 would have the higher port tune. With the V1811, the V1811 might have a slightly higher port tune. But, in all cases, there would be cancellation somewhere around 20Hz and below, and you might actually lose some low-frequency SPL compared to what you have now.

It's actually much better to have identical ported subs, if at all possible, unless you have the means to measure your frequency response and to make potential corrections with a miniDSP. Automated room correction won't help with the problem I am describing.

So, for instance, you could add two more PB2000's. That would give you 6dm more max output than you have now, and potentially, an even better frequency response. Or, you could sell/trade-in the PB2000's for two PB4000's. That would give you more low-frequency SPL than four PB2000's would, and more of everything else than your current PB2000's, including innately better sound quality than you have now.

Another option would be to switch to dual PSA V1811's. You still wouldn't want to use your PB2000's, though, as the overall frequency response would be completely different. The V1811's would have much more mid-bass than your PB2000's and more than a pair of PB4000's. But, they would fall short of the PB4000's below 20Hz where many movie special effects are heard and felt.

The Rythmik FV18's would go even lower in frequency than the PB4000's, but they would have a somewhat lighter and clearer sound signature, and they would also have less low-bass tactile response (TR) than the PB4000's. If you were 90/10 music/movies instead of the other way around, you might really like the FV18's. As it is, I can't be sure that you wouldn't prefer the slightly warmer and more robust sound and feel of the SVS subs.

That's about the best I can do. If you like the sound and tactile sensations of your PB2000's, I would either add two more of them, or even better, I would buy dual PB/PC4000's. I would not mix the PB2000's and the PB4000's, though. Or, if I wanted to try something entirely different, I would sell the PB2000's, and try the V1811's (excellent mid-bass specialists, with good chest thump and decent extension) or the FV18's (excellent mid-bass and extension, with a lighter/clearer sound signature and a little less low-bass TR).

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
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post #31369 of 31454 Old 07-21-2019, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
Hi

I have a few questions for anyone whos kind enough to answer.

I have dual SVS PB 1600 Ultras in a 7.2 setup

I dont have a dedicated room , but the room is kind of rectangle .

Basically a 7m x 5m room with an open room attatched on the far back side. The smaller room is around 3.5m x 3.5m

I do have some room treatment going on as well . All the windows are sealed with thick MDF boards and curtains as well as acoustic pin board

So basically, im trying to determine the best location for these two large subs.

Im using REW /Umik

I use ARC Genesis to calibrate via an AVM 60

Theres a large dip that occurs no matter where i place the subs.
...
REW Graph shows current position measurements .

Have you used REW's excellent Room Simulator yet?


It is amazing! By moving the sub(s) around, it creates a feeling on which wall, or which corners certain problems are reduced or emphasized.




Then use some cables, move the speakers to these positions and give the theoretical positions a try. The difference can blow you away.
The difference can be so dramatic, that trying different speaker placement and the MLP could also become an additonal option.



No amount of equipment can overcome physics. Always work with the laws of nature. In that case, find the mathematical good locations with REW and then fine tune and decide for the best compromise of sound and usability.
I have 2 PC4000 and umik and REW. How would REW work with two subs for that room simulator? Does it have to test one at a time or how they both work together to make combined levels so I can keep one in the same place I want and only move the other one...is this possible and how? I want one to remain where it is for sure and may be flexible with the other

Sony 75Z9D, Samsung 65JS9500
Monitor Audio Gold 200(2), Gold 350, Gold 50(2), Gold CT280-IDC(4). SVS PC4000(2).
NAD 758, Anthem MCA-5
Apple TV 4K, Nvidea Shield. Mac Mini (2018). Samsung UHD BluRay and X-Box One X. 14 Sonos
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post #31370 of 31454 Old 07-22-2019, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I have 2 PC4000 and umik and REW. How would REW work with two subs for that room simulator? Does it have to test one at a time or how they both work together to make combined levels so I can keep one in the same place I want and only move the other one...is this possible and how? I want one to remain where it is for sure and may be flexible with the other
Yes, I believe you can choose up to 6 subs in the simulator.
How it works? Just enable the additional sub in the menu.

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
Hello,
I have dual pb 2000's but after hearing the pb 4000, I think my final setup would have two pb 4000's in addition to the 2000's.

Did you hear the PB 4000 in your room, or did you hear it in a different location?

Quote:
What are subs should I look at in this price range? I listen to music 10 %, and home theater 90% of the time. I know it's an SVS thread, but I know you guys are open minded about other brands too. Total budget for subs is $3000. Thank you.
Have you analyzed the placement of the subs with a room simulator?


Measured the sound?


Optimized the placement of the subs, the speakers and the listening position?



Treated the room acoustically?

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #31372 of 31454 Old 07-22-2019, 05:31 PM
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Installed the new PB-3000 today, it is Huge. Next I need to find the Pioneer microphone to start the configuring.

4KTV: Sony 65 930E Receiver: Pioneer VSX-LX101 7.2 Channel ATMOS/DTS-X Speakers: JAMO S 807(2) Fronts, Andrew Jones SP-FS52 (2) Rears, Center:SP-C22, Klipsch R-14SA Atmos Subwoofer: SVS PB-3000 Subwoofer 4K Player and Misc: Sony X700, Sony X800, Samsung UBD-K8500, Comcast Arris AX014ANM and Extreme 150 Internet and PS4 (6TB Edition)
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post #31373 of 31454 Old 07-22-2019, 05:37 PM
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Skinfax,
Below are my responses:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinfax1 View Post
Did you hear the PB 4000 in your room, or did you hear it in a different location?

I heard it a showroom, a single unit in a showroom which is 3-5 times bigger than my basement.



Have you analyzed the placement of the subs with a room simulator?
I ran Audyssey and actually hated what it did with the subs, at it seemed to have cut out 30hz and below. I am running the sound without eq, and it sounds great now.

Measured the sound?
Again Audyssey performed, but I disliked it in regards to the subs only.

Optimized the placement of the subs, the speakers and the listening position?
Yes, again through Audyssey, and it cut the bass bottom end off.


Treated the room acoustically?

No. It's a basement home theater, concrete floor and block. I get very little reflection as a result. Rug over some of the floor. I have four panels for when I finish the room later.

TCL/Roku 65" R615 4K TV, SVS Ultra 5.0 Tower Surround System, Onkyo TX-SR805 for LCR, Onkyo HTR 940 for Surrounds, Dual SVS PB-2000 Subwoofers, Sony UBP X700 4K Ultra Blu-ray Player

Last edited by Dan30thz28; 07-22-2019 at 05:42 PM.
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One PB 16 Ultra or two PB 3000s? What do you think would be better? I love my subs for movies not really used for music much.
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post #31375 of 31454 Old 07-23-2019, 01:39 AM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
No. It's a basement home theater, concrete floor and block. I get very little reflection as a result. Rug over some of the floor. I have four panels for when I finish the room later.

If you heard the other sub in a diffeerent room, you can't judge it. Maybe even it was optimized while yours aren't. Most people make these invalid comparisons.

But without measurement, analysis and optimization you have not the slightest idea, how much potential your subs really have!


Sadly, what I just wrote should be the best known knowledge in a self-help forum. But sadly it's only dominated by buy buy buy...

Good sound is always the result of engineering. And engineering always starts with measuring. Consumer industry and mainstream will never tell customers about that: improvements in room acoustics are worth roughly ten (10!) times the amount spent on equipment like speakers and receivers. For example: only $500 in room treatment is worth more than spending $5000 (fivethousand) on equipment.
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post #31376 of 31454 Old 07-23-2019, 02:52 AM
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Hi, the by SVS mentioned lowest bass (say 18 Hz) is this at -3 dB or -6 dB ? Thanks...
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post #31377 of 31454 Old 07-23-2019, 06:13 AM
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For my Pioneer VSXLX101, here are the settings after the calibration:

Subwoofer: Yes
Front: Large
Center: Large
Surround: Large
Height: Small
Crossover: 100 Hz

Front Left: +5.0
Center: -1.0
Front Right: +5.0
Height Left: +.5
Height Right: +.5
Surround Right: +.5
Surround Left: +.5
Subwoofer: -5.5

Now to read more of the Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences thread. I know I will probably need to adjust the size of the Speakers(Jamo807 are the fronts and Andrew Jones SP-FS52 are the rears) and tweak the AR sub setting. And then make adjustments on the Sub. Thanks for all the great advice.

4KTV: Sony 65 930E Receiver: Pioneer VSX-LX101 7.2 Channel ATMOS/DTS-X Speakers: JAMO S 807(2) Fronts, Andrew Jones SP-FS52 (2) Rears, Center:SP-C22, Klipsch R-14SA Atmos Subwoofer: SVS PB-3000 Subwoofer 4K Player and Misc: Sony X700, Sony X800, Samsung UBD-K8500, Comcast Arris AX014ANM and Extreme 150 Internet and PS4 (6TB Edition)

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How many height speakers?

My room when finished will be approximately 12'X 20'. I want to run six height speakers, but I am curious what others are doing in this size room. Thank you as always for your assistance.


Sincerely,
Daniel Maldonado

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post #31379 of 31454 Old 07-23-2019, 08:43 AM
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ARC Genesis and Nulls and REW Estimator

Quote:
Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
Hi

I have a few questions for anyone whos kind enough to answer.

I have dual SVS PB 1600 Ultras in a 7.2 setup

I dont have a dedicated room , but the room is kind of rectangle .

Basically a 7m x 5m room with an open room attatched on the far back side. The smaller room is around 3.5m x 3.5m

I do have some room treatment going on as well . All the windows are sealed with thick MDF boards and curtains as well as acoustic pin board

So basically, im trying to determine the best location for these two large subs.

Im using REW /Umik

I use ARC Genesis to calibrate via an AVM 60

Theres a large dip that occurs no matter where i place the subs.

I have tried the front centre , front corners, side walls front.
I cant reach the far back for reasons i wont go into , but the best measurement so far seems to against the side wall just in front of the MLP but against the right wall
Second sub behind the seating area against the Left wall

Small diagram shows positions

Things i tried to improve measurements

* Sub placement around room
* Adjust phase on SVS app ( made things worst. Basically moved the huge null around )
* PEQ through SVS app
*Adjust distance through speaker position through the AVM 60 ( Made no difference at all)
* Absorption panels (9 panels , NRC 1.0 @ 250hz/ 80kg/ M3. + two large bass traps, same as panels but double thickness)

My questions are :

If i can improve the null by almost 10dB using SVS PEQ, is it worth it even though im going to run ARC afterwards anyway? I mean ARC will do the same thing right?
Is it worth boosting the signal 6dB or so using PEQ before running ARC?

Also, is there anything ive missed that may help reduce the null?

From what ive read, peaks arnt such a big deal with low frequency , and i shouldnt be too worried about a few peaks that can probably be EQd by ARC anyway. Am i correct in thinking this?

REW Graph shows current position measurements . One has PEQ enabled at 100hz around 6dB or so. The other , no PEQ enabled via svs app

SECOND GRAPH IS WHAT I HAVE TO DECIDE. ONE MEASURE SHOWS SUBS AT FRONT OF ROOM OTHER HAS SUBS IN MIDDLE OF ROOM AGAINST EACH WALL AS SHOWN IN THE SKETCH. WHICH LOOKS BETTER? I CANT DECIDE TO BE HONEST

Thanks in advance
I have 4 SB16Ultras in a 5100^3 room that is also open to back on side. REW room estimator showed that the only places I can place my subs are poor. I had no choice. I also am using ARC Genesis with an AVM60.
I know you have done many of these steps, but perhaps you haven't done them exactly like this.
Deciding on position 1 is crucial. I got large differences.
After deciding on Position one, adjust phase using REW looking for flattest fr. (Not loudest)
From position 1, level match subs at the volume you will be calibrating them at.
After calibration, adjust sub distance using REW.
I do not use any SVS PEQ.

Probably won't help, but seems like I'm in a similar situation.
By the way, I understand you can't fight physics. In addition, Skinfax1 is so knowledgeable, makes me uneasy to appear to contradict him.
I have attached a REW graph showing how I got rid of two significant nulls following the above steps despite the less than optimum placement of my subs.
In addition, the best bass I've ever had in my room.
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post #31380 of 31454 Old 07-23-2019, 10:04 AM
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I currently have a 7.2.2 setup. I was debating adding another Atmos modules or another sub and have decided on the sub. I currently have dual PB-1000’s. I was thinking about adding a PC2000 but was told by a few SVS reps that it’s not a good idea, to stick with the same line. I’m planning on placing the 3rd behind my couch near my wall roughly 5 ft from MPL. My question is will 3 subs be ok or am I better with sticking with 2?
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