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post #31411 of 31449 Old 08-09-2019, 02:01 PM
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Hi, I currently have the PB12-NSD subwoofer and I am looking to upgrade because I don't think the sub is good for my room. The room is 18 x 19 x8 and is an open concept. I was looking at the SB 4000, I like the size of this sub, do you think this would be a significant improvement over my current sub ? Also, my listening is mostly movies and tv.

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Thanks, the PB4000 is a large sub, I might be able to get it. The SB16 is smaller in size, do you think that would be okay for an open concept ?

Hi,

In order to really understand and benefit from the advice you are getting, you need to start by understanding the difference between sealed and ported subs. Sealed subs are smaller and are less costly than the same model of ported sub would be. Ported subs are larger in order to accommodate the ports which let them play lower frequencies at louder volume levels.

It is the combination of larger cabinet volume, ports, and port tuning, and the way that the amplifier is configured to maximize SPL at certain frequencies, that gives ported subs their ability to play frequencies below about 50Hz louder than sealed subs can. And, the difference becomes much greater below about 30 or 35Hz. For the very low-frequencies that we enjoy in 5.1 movies, and some TV shows, a single ported sub can play as loudly as anywhere from 2-4 comparable sealed subs.

For a large open room, and for primarily movie/TV viewing, I agree with the recommendations to move to a PB4000 or a PC4000. Either of those ported subwoofer models will be much more powerful in the frequencies below about 35Hz than a sealed SB16. It's those frequencies below about 35Hz that really sets the home theater experience apart from a commercial cinema. We are able to get much more low-bass, with good subwoofers in our HT's, than a movie theater can. You will like it!

If you want to understand more about the difference between sealed and ported subs, the following link will explain the differences in some detail.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...nces.html#VIII

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31412 of 31449 Old 08-09-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

In order to really understand and benefit from the advice you are getting, you need to start by understanding the difference between sealed and ported subs. Sealed subs are smaller and are less costly than the same model of ported sub would be. Ported subs are larger in order to accommodate the ports which let them play lower frequencies at louder volume levels.

It is the combination of larger cabinet volume, ports, and port tuning, and the way that the amplifier is configured to maximize SPL at certain frequencies, that gives ported subs their ability to play frequencies below about 50Hz louder than sealed subs can. And, the difference becomes much greater below about 30 or 35Hz. For the very low-frequencies that we enjoy in 5.1 movies, and some TV shows, a single ported sub can play as loudly as anywhere from 2-4 comparable sealed subs.

For a large open room, and for primarily movie/TV viewing, I agree with the recommendations to move to a PB4000 or a PC4000. Either of those ported subwoofer models will be much more powerful in the frequencies below about 35Hz than a sealed SB16. It's those frequencies below about 35Hz that really sets the home theater experience apart from a commercial cinema. We are able to get much more low-bass, with good subwoofers in our HT's, than a movie theater can. You will like it!

If you want to understand more about the difference between sealed and ported subs, the following link will explain the differences in some detail.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...nces.html#VIII

Regards,
Mike

Thanks, this is good advice.
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post #31413 of 31449 Old 08-09-2019, 02:36 PM
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I was just looking at the specs for the SB 4000, PB4000 and PB2000. The PB2000 is close to the sub that I got, it says that around 20hz the db is 88, with the SB4000 the db is 91 and the PB4000 is 96. Does this mean that at that 20 hz the higher number will play louder ? Is going from 88 to 91 a big difference ?
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post #31414 of 31449 Old 08-09-2019, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Banner23 View Post
I was just looking at the specs for the SB 4000, PB4000 and PB2000. The PB2000 is close to the sub that I got, it says that around 20hz the db is 88, with the SB4000 the db is 91 and the PB4000 is 96. Does this mean that at that 20 hz the higher number will play louder ? Is going from 88 to 91 a big difference ?

Hi,

I'm not sure what specs you are referring to, but those numbers aren't correct. Perhaps you are looking at the graphs of the frequencies responses under Tech Info, on the SVS website. But, those just show you the shape of the frequency response. They aren't intended to demonstrate the maximum capabilities of the subwoofers.

Lower frequencies are harder for us to hear. An increase of 3db would be meaningful, but 91db is still not very loud. (Your ported PB12 would have more max SPL at 20Hz, than a sealed SB4000 has. Of course, the SB4000 would do better than the little guy with higher frequencies.)

Let's compare actual max output, as independently tested for the SB4000 and the PB4000. (I'm actually looking at measurements for the PB4000 operating in sealed mode, but the results would be fairly similar for an SB4000.) At 20Hz, an SB4000 can produce approximately 95 to 96db, where the PB (or PC) 4000 in Extended mode can produce 109db. That is a difference of 13-14db or about 2.5 SB4000's. At 16Hz, the gap widens even more.

The SB4000 and the PB/PC4000 replaced the older 13 Ultra's, which were made contemporaneously with your PB12-NSD. You can look at the table below to see the differences in low-bass output among the various older model SVS subs, and the differences with the newer 4000 Ultra models would be similar.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems?_k=89utej

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31415 of 31449 Old 08-09-2019, 03:29 PM
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Hi,

I'm not sure what specs you are referring to, but those numbers aren't correct. Perhaps you are looking at the graphs of the frequencies responses under Tech Info, on the SVS website. But, those just show you the shape of the frequency response. They aren't intended to demonstrate the maximum capabilities of the subwoofers.

Lower frequencies are harder for us to hear. An increase of 3db would be meaningful, but 91db is still not very loud. (Your ported PB12 would have more max SPL at 20Hz, than a sealed SB4000 has. Of course, the SB4000 would do better than the little guy with higher frequencies.)

Let's compare actual max output, as independently tested for the SB4000 and the PB4000. (I'm actually looking at measurements for the PB4000 operating in sealed mode, but the results would be fairly similar for an SB4000.) At 20Hz, an SB4000 can produce approximately 95 to 96db, where the PB (or PC) 4000 in Extended mode can produce 109db. That is a difference of 13-14db or about 2.5 SB4000's. At 16Hz, the gap widens even more.

The SB4000 and the PB/PC4000 replaced the older 13 Ultra's, which were made contemporaneously with your PB12-NSD. You can look at the table below to see the differences in low-bass output among the various older model SVS subs, and the differences with the newer 4000 Ultra models would be similar.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems?_k=89utej

Regards,
Mike

Thanks, yea, I was looking at there tech info. I am glad you mentioned that my current sub would have more SPL at 20 hz than the SB4000, I certainly don't want to go worst than what I have now.
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post #31416 of 31449 Old 08-11-2019, 12:33 PM
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In an open concept room, you would want to stick with ported subs. The PB4000 would be an excellent choice and a major step up.
Thanks, the PB4000 is a large sub, I might be able to get it. The SB16 is smaller in size, do you think that would be okay for an open concept ?
Go with the PC4000-same as the PB with low end but not as big-just taller, but you could put on ground. I have 2

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post #31417 of 31449 Old 08-12-2019, 08:02 AM
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For all you SVS owners out there I need your opinion. I have a small HT...about 1000 cubic feet. Just my wife and I use this for movies only. Our sound system is powered by a Yamaha 1080. The sound level is at low to moderate levels. Budget is about $1000. For my situation would you suggest duel SB2000 or a single SB 3000? Thanks in advance.
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post #31418 of 31449 Old 08-12-2019, 08:53 AM
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For all you SVS owners out there I need your opinion. I have a small HT...about 1000 cubic feet. Just my wife and I use this for movies only. Our sound system is powered by a Yamaha 1080. The sound level is at low to moderate levels. Budget is about $1000. For my situation would you suggest duel SB2000 or a single SB 3000? Thanks in advance.

Do you already have a sub in there that you know measures well at your seating area (no big nulls)? If yes, I would go for the SB3000 for sure. If not, it's hard to say without getting at least one sub in the room first and doing measurements so you can see how the bass is reacting with the room at your seating area depending on sub location. If you can't find a spot in the room with just one sub that performs well then 2x SB2000 would probably be the way to go.

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post #31419 of 31449 Old 08-12-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by abba1 View Post
For all you SVS owners out there I need your opinion. I have a small HT...about 1000 cubic feet. Just my wife and I use this for movies only. Our sound system is powered by a Yamaha 1080. The sound level is at low to moderate levels. Budget is about $1000. For my situation would you suggest duel SB2000 or a single SB 3000? Thanks in advance.
I would suggest a single PC2000 even though you didn’t mention it. It’s a great sub for everything in a small room.

Ideally, if your budget was higher, I would suggest the best sealed sub that you could swing and a set of Crowson’s. That would cover every base and you would get great TR at low volumes which would really bring movies to life in that size room without destroying your hearing
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post #31420 of 31449 Old 08-13-2019, 01:55 AM
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2000 series does not have PEQs and Yamaha is pretty poor for subwoofer EQ.
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post #31421 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by abba1 View Post
For all you SVS owners out there I need your opinion. I have a small HT...about 1000 cubic feet. Just my wife and I use this for movies only. Our sound system is powered by a Yamaha 1080. The sound level is at low to moderate levels. Budget is about $1000. For my situation would you suggest duel SB2000 or a single SB 3000? Thanks in advance.
If the room is enclosed, a small listening space like this will likely have a decent amount of 'room gain', making a sealed sub a good choice.

Something like the SB-2000 or SB-3000 will extend much deeper in-room (with room gain added) than the quasi-anechoic FR would otherwise suggest.

Dual SB-2000 will have more output in the 18-36 Hz octave than a single SB-3000. The two options will be similar in the 40-80 Hz octave.

Small rooms are notorious for a mid-bass null near the center of the room - so I would lean toward the dual SB-2000 if you can place them in opposite diagonal corners (which is the best arrangement to combat this type of standing wave null).

At your stated playback levels (low to moderate) you'll have plenty of dynamic headroom.

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post #31422 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 09:40 AM
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I was just looking at the specs for the SB 4000, PB4000 and PB2000. The PB2000 is close to the sub that I got, it says that around 20hz the db is 88, with the SB4000 the db is 91 and the PB4000 is 96. Does this mean that at that 20 hz the higher number will play louder ? Is going from 88 to 91 a big difference ?
We vary the sweep level of the FR to obtain good S/N ratio and data acquisition at the deepest frequencies. So some sweeps are louder than others.

The FR sweep level doesn't denote the maximum output capability of the subwoofer - and we state this below the FR graphs.

When comparing the max dynamic output (CEA-2010 ground plane) of an SB and a PB within the same family, the following max output deltas roughly apply:

40 Hz: 1.5X
32 Hz: 2X
25 Hz: 3X
20 Hz: 4X

The two will be typically much closer in the 50-100 Hz octave.

This doesn't make the SB an inferior choice for a given application. The room size and room layout (both of which affect room gain), playback level, source material, distance to the subwoofer, how hot the sub is running, etc. are all variables which need to be taken into consideration.

On the contrary, the SB is often the better choice, provided its dynamic limits will not be exceeded for a given application.
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post #31423 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 09:56 AM
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We vary the sweep level of the FR to obtain good S/N ratio and data acquisition at the deepest frequencies. So some sweeps are louder than others.

The FR sweep level doesn't denote the maximum output capability of the subwoofer - and we state this below the FR graphs.

When comparing the max dynamic output (CEA-2010 ground plane) of an SB and a PB within the same family, the following max output deltas roughly apply:

40 Hz: 1.5X
32 Hz: 2X
25 Hz: 3X
20 Hz: 4X

The two will be typically much closer in the 50-100 Hz octave.

This doesn't make the SB an inferior choice for a given application. The room size and room layout (both of which affect room gain), playback level, source material, distance to the subwoofer, how hot the sub is running, etc. are all variables which need to be taken into consideration.

On the contrary, the SB is often the better choice, provided its dynamic limits will not be exceeded for a given application.

Thanks Ed, I was thinking about going to the SB16. At 20hz would it be close to the PB-NSD12 and say around 30hz would the SB16 be a noticeable difference ?
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post #31424 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 10:04 AM
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Thanks Ed, I was thinking about going to the SB16. At 20hz would it be close to the PB-NSD12 and say around 30hz would the SB16 be a noticeable difference ?
While the PB12-NSD actually has slightly higher dynamic output at 20 Hz - I wouldn't look at this test frequency in isolation as any sort of valid subjective comparator.

Subjectively the SB16-Ultra flat-out stomps the PB12-NSD. It will have a tighter, punchier and more detailed delivery, with better perceived transient response and way more slam/impact on all source material.

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post #31425 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
While the PB12-NSD actually has slightly higher dynamic output at 20 Hz - I wouldn't look at this test frequency in isolation as any sort of valid subjective comparator.

Subjectively the SB16-Ultra flat-out stomps the PB12-NSD. It will have a tighter, punchier and more detailed delivery, with better perceived transient response and way more slam/impact on all source material.
Thanks Ed, you have been very helpful.
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post #31426 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 11:52 AM
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Based on my research it seems the answer is no but I figured I'd ask the knowledgable group here. Is there a way to turn off the lights on the PB3000 control panel? It's not a big deal as there are other ways to handle the lights but I might have missed something in my searching around. I'm a dark room viewer and the faint bluish glow while very faint is still noticeable.

Thanks!
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post #31427 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 01:50 PM
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Based on my research it seems the answer is no but I figured I'd ask the knowledgable group here. Is there a way to turn off the lights on the PB3000 control panel? It's not a big deal as there are other ways to handle the lights but I might have missed something in my searching around. I'm a dark room viewer and the faint bluish glow while very faint is still noticeable.



Thanks!


Light Dims are a cheap and effective solution.

Spoiler!
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post #31428 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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Light Dims are a cheap and effective solution.
I've used those before for other applications but they tend to leave a sticky residue once you remove them.

Short of an actual button or command to turn them off a piece a felt applied with some painter's tape will do the job nicely.
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post #31429 of 31449 Old 08-14-2019, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Based on my research it seems the answer is no but I figured I'd ask the knowledgable group here. Is there a way to turn off the lights on the PB3000 control panel? It's not a big deal as there are other ways to handle the lights but I might have missed something in my searching around. I'm a dark room viewer and the faint bluish glow while very faint is still noticeable.

Thanks!
While I do not own any of the new subs series, including the PB3000. I was under the impression that there is a way to turn off the lights, from the front of sub on the control panel. Hopefully someone else can confirm or deny.


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post #31430 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 02:07 AM
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Hi, the by SVS mentioned lowest bass (say 18 Hz) is this at -3 dB or -6 dB ? Thanks...

If you check the svsound.com website you can find quite detailed information on the frequency response of each of their subs, including the answer to your question.

A good idea and understanding lies at the base of every successful project.
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post #31431 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 05:35 AM
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@Ed Mullen , I spoke to you some time ago and im in a unique situation where for my system to sound (and measure correctly) my subs have to be in reverse polarity with my front stage.
With the PB13s to do this i just reversed the wiring on my front sound stage, but with the PB16s I've been using the negative polarity since that's a feature now.

However to my ears having the PB16s stay positive and flipping the speaker wiring still sounds better to me than negative on the 16s and positive polarity on the front sound stage.

Keeping the PB16s in their positive polarity feels more powerful but as expected the FR graph between the two settings overlap (almost perfectly) and there is no real measured spl difference.

Is there any objective reason I could be hearing/feeling a difference...or is it just my imagination?

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post #31432 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 05:48 AM
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@Ed Mullen , I spoke to you some time ago and im in a unique situation where for my system to sound (and measure correctly) my subs have to be in reverse polarity with my front stage.
With the PB13s to do this i just reversed the wiring on my front sound stage, but with the PB16s I've been using the negative polarity since that's a feature now.

However to my ears having the PB16s stay positive and flipping the speaker wiring still sounds better to me than negative on the 16s and positive polarity on the front sound stage.

Keeping the PB16s in their positive polarity feels more powerful but as expected the FR graph between the two settings overlap (almost perfectly) and there is no real measured spl difference.

Is there any objective reason I could be hearing/feeling a difference...or is it just my imagination?
It sounds like your speakers were built with negative polarity. You can confirm this with a simple battery test on the binding post terminals - apply a 9V battery to the terminals (positive to positive, negative to negative). If the speaker woofer pulls inward, it's negative polarity. If the speaker woofer pushes outward, it's positive polarity.

Even if the speaker was built with positive polarity, its acoustic phase response over the bandwidth being shared by the subwoofer might be so far out of phase with the subwoofer that reversing the wiring of the speaker (or setting the subwoofer to negative polarity) makes the combined FR look smoother. That would be rare but not out of the realm of possibility.

The electrical polarity of the loudspeaker and the acoustic phase response of the loudspeaker over a given bandwidth are two different things. So let's first determine the electrical polarity of the loudspeaker and then take it from there.

If you are using REW to take in-room measurements, looking at the loudspeaker FR and phase response and the subwoofer FR and phase response will be helpful too.

Also, are you running any other loudspeakers in the system? If yes, you should also determine their electrical polarity too - I've seen situations where the front speakers and the center channel from the same manufacturer were actually built with opposite electrical polarity and this could affect your subjective perceptions.

To answer your specific question - you would have to measure both scenarios (loudspeakers wired positive/PB16U negative polarity vs. loudspeakers wired negative/PB16U positive polarity) with all other variables (i.e., mic location, sweep signal, etc.) being held constant to see if there are actual differences between the two.

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post #31433 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 06:39 AM
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It sounds like your speakers were built with negative polarity. You can confirm this with a simple battery test on the binding post terminals - apply a 9V battery to the terminals (positive to positive, negative to negative). If the speaker woofer pulls inward, it's negative polarity. If the speaker woofer pushes outward, it's positive polarity.

Even if the speaker was built with positive polarity, its acoustic phase response over the bandwidth being shared by the subwoofer might be so far out of phase with the subwoofer that reversing the wiring of the speaker (or setting the subwoofer to negative polarity) makes the combined FR look smoother. That would be rare but not out of the realm of possibility.

The electrical polarity of the loudspeaker and the acoustic phase response of the loudspeaker over a given bandwidth are two different things. So let's first determine the electrical polarity of the loudspeaker and then take it from there.

If you are using REW to take in-room measurements, looking at the loudspeaker FR and phase response and the subwoofer FR and phase response will be helpful too.

Also, are you running any other loudspeakers in the system? If yes, you should also determine their electrical polarity too - I've seen situations where the front speakers and the center channel from the same manufacturer were actually built with opposite electrical polarity and this could affect your subjective perceptions.

To answer your specific question - you would have to measure both scenarios (loudspeakers wired positive/PB16U negative polarity vs. loudspeakers wired negative/PB16U positive polarity) with all other variables (i.e., mic location, sweep signal, etc.) being held constant to see if there are actual differences between the two.
They're all SVS ultra speakers, I've done the 9V test and all the woofers push out. Polarity seems correct on all the speakers I believe it's just an odd room interaction.

The teal line is with the center wired positive/PB16s positive. The ultra towers exhibit the same dip from 40-80hz losing about 5-13dB across that range without reversing the polarity. It does sound good with the polarities reversed however. Cross over is at 60.


As for the specific question I did measure those back to back to see if the FR changed but the FR graphs overlapped (no measurable spl difference at all). The measured phase was different between the two but I'm not sure how to interpret that or if it even matters.

I couldn't think of a logical reason there would be a difference in sound(and the identical FR graphs seem to support that) but I'm pretty sure I'm hearing one.
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post #31434 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 07:08 AM
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@Ed Mullen, I spoke to you some time ago and im in a unique situation where for my system to sound (and measure correctly) my subs have to be in reverse polarity with my front stage.
With the PB13s to do this i just reversed the wiring on my front sound stage, but with the PB16s I've been using the negative polarity since that's a feature now.

However to my ears having the PB16s stay positive and flipping the speaker wiring still sounds better to me than negative on the 16s and positive polarity on the front sound stage.

Keeping the PB16s in their positive polarity feels more powerful but as expected the FR graph between the two settings overlap (almost perfectly) and there is no real measured spl difference.

Is there any objective reason I could be hearing/feeling a difference...or is it just my imagination?
It seems to me that somewhere in the chain your fronts are receiving inversed polarity signals (could be the wiring inside your AVR/processor/amplifier), and the difference you are hearing is caused by the difference in pressure at the very first arrival of a LF wave: pressurize at correct polarity, versus depressurize at inversed polarity. Some people are more susceptible to such 180 degrees phase shift than others ...


Edit: Or, more plausible, if other main speakers are active which are receiving correct polarity, they will partly cancel each other out.

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post #31435 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by maikeldepotter View Post
It seems to me that somewhere in the chain your fronts are receiving inversed polarity signals (could be the wiring inside your AVR/processor/amplifier), and the difference you are hearing is caused by the difference in pressure at the very first arrival of a LF wave: pressurize at correct polarity, versus depressurize at inversed polarity. Some people are more susceptible to such 180 degrees phase shift than others ...
I was thinking something similar to this. They sound mostly the same but the PB16s in positive polarity feel heavier; the difference is largely tactile, which is why I was asking Ed.

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post #31436 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 07:43 AM
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I was thinking something similar to this. They sound mostly the same but the PB16s in positive polarity feel heavier; the difference is largely tactile, which is why I was asking Ed.
Are you saying that with only the PB16 active (silent fronts) you still notice this difference between the two settings on the PB16? In that case my first explanation will be most plausible.

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post #31437 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 08:03 AM
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Are you saying that with only the PB16 active (silent fronts) you still notice this difference between the two settings on the PB16? In that case my first explanation will be most plausible.
Whoa I didn't think to try them in isolation but yea there actually is a difference!
Negative sounds...thinner like the bass is more distant than when its set to positive.

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post #31438 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 08:04 AM
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OK we've established all speakers are positive polarity.

We've established that 'positive wiring speakers/negative polarity sub' and 'negative wiring speakers/positive polarity sub' measure identically (and theory would support this).

We've established that positive wiring speakers/positive polarity sub results in some cancellation in the 35-75 Hz bandwidth. This cancellation is likely the result of the differences in acoustic phase response between the speaker and the subwoofer over this bandwidth. I seem to recall from our conversation months ago that changing the distance setting for the speakers didn't alter this much - but you can confirm/deny that.

We've established that this phase cancellation is largely eliminated when the speaker wiring is reversed or the subwoofer polarity is reversed. You also indicated a subjective preference for how it sounds this way.

In the end - if you like the way it sounds this way, and it also certainly does measure flatter - then I don't see the harm in leaving it that way.

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post #31439 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 10:21 AM
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OK we've established all speakers are positive polarity.
Yes, but out of scientific curiosity I would still like to check the polarity of the line level signal to verify whether the fronts are receiving a correct signal or not.

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post #31440 of 31449 Old 08-15-2019, 10:30 AM
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Yes, but out of scientific curiosity I would still like to check the polarity of the line level signal to verify whether the fronts are receiving a correct signal or not.
Sure it's a good idea. I've seen polarity reversals in amplifiers (rare) and also in XLR cables (more common).

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