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post #31561 of 31809 Old 09-19-2019, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Blame that idiom on my age - been saying that one for decades.


Lol, I’ve said it a few times myself. I just had to laugh consider the thread. Keep up the good fight Ed.
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post #31562 of 31809 Old 09-20-2019, 05:37 AM
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They said it was an error that they corrected. Then after I got off the phone I got another email with shipping label that also said pb2000. Ha. I guess we’️ll see what I end up with. I’️ve got a backup sub and can handle a delay if necessary.
Sorry about that!

I double-checked the RMA and the Sales Order and they are now correct for the PB12-NSD.

The return shipping label was sent out so quickly it was based on the 1st RMA instead of the corrected one. But don't worry about that - the return shipping label is the same for all amps - it will get back to us no problem.

Thanks and sorry for the trouble with the amp - she'll be thumping again in no-time flat.
It’s no problem. I figured you guys probably had it under control. So far, this has been the most painless electronics warranty/repair claim I’ve ever had to deal with.
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post #31563 of 31809 Old 09-21-2019, 08:24 AM
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Hi, I plan on getting the SB16 sub, and was wondering how long do subwoofers last before the amplifier starts to break down ? This is an expensive sub and hope that it will last for a long time.
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post #31564 of 31809 Old 09-21-2019, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Banner23 View Post
Hi, I plan on getting the SB16 sub, and was wondering how long do subwoofers last before the amplifier starts to break down ? This is an expensive sub and hope that it will last for a long time.
If by "starts to break down" you mean gradually deteriorate then it doesn't really work like that. Most amplifiers today are almost exclusively digital so they don't progressively become less capable; typically they work or they don't. But as far as life expectancy of an amplifier in general... if properly cared for - not overheated, not exposed to dirty power or surges - they should last for many years. The quality of components today is quite good.
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post #31565 of 31809 Old 09-21-2019, 11:00 AM
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Hi, I plan on getting the SB16 sub, and was wondering how long do subwoofers last before the amplifier starts to break down ? This is an expensive sub and hope that it will last for a long time.
Think they will last a long long time, have my duals since mid 2017 and they are running fine without issues, also don't forget that SVS have the best customer service on the planet.

I am planning to keep them for at least another 5-6 years.

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post #31566 of 31809 Old 09-21-2019, 11:17 AM
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Hi, I plan on getting the SB16 sub, and was wondering how long do subwoofers last before the amplifier starts to break down ? This is an expensive sub and hope that it will last for a long time.
IIRC, they come with a 5 year guarantee. I think if they last that long there's a good chance of having many more years of life. Personally I wouldn't be concerned unless I read about a number of failures while while reading posts here. In any case amplifiers can be replaced.

Abusive use could be an issue with any sub.
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post #31567 of 31809 Old 09-21-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
IIRC, they come with a 5 year guarantee. I think if they last that long there's a good chance of having many more years of life. Personally I wouldn't be concerned unless I read about a number of failures while while reading posts here. In any case amplifiers can be replaced.

Abusive use could be an issue with any sub.
Big +1

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Hi, I plan on getting the SB16 sub, and was wondering how long do subwoofers last before the amplifier starts to break down ? This is an expensive sub and hope that it will last for a long time.
I had my dual PB13 for around 10 years, with the old BASH amps. And never had an issue
My preference listening level are around -10 to -13dB, from reference. With a +2dB boost after calibration with PEQ set to Off, with a flat curve.


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post #31568 of 31809 Old 09-22-2019, 04:18 PM
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I finally joined the SVS club, purchasing two sb-3000s. I would of loved to gone ported but I didn’t have the space for them. These replaced two klipsch 12” subs which were underwhelming to say the least, and the Klipsch subs were a replacement for a M&K MX 5000 mkii which the both the amplifier and one woofer blew. That sub was a beast and could pound the house.

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post #31569 of 31809 Old 09-23-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Big +1



I had my dual PB13 for around 10 years, with the old BASH amps. And never had an issue
My preference listening level are around -10 to -13dB, from reference. With a +2dB boost after calibration with PEQ set to Off, with a flat curve.


Darth
My dual PB13 with Bash amps for around 11-12 years experienced 4 amplifier failures. They are rarely used and not being pushed hard enough. The last amp failure was catastrophic. I had to reverse engineer this amp in order to repair it. It was serious enough that I ordered 2 Sledge amps but I prefer Bash amps in my setup so I had no choice but to fix it. Likely I took lots of pictures and will share them with community in a near future.
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post #31570 of 31809 Old 09-23-2019, 07:38 PM
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My dual PB13 with Bash amps for around 11-12 years experienced 4 amplifier failures. They are rarely used and not being pushed hard enough. The last amp failure was catastrophic. I had to reverse engineer this amp in order to repair it. It was serious enough that I ordered 2 Sledge amps but I prefer Bash amps in my setup so I had no choice but to fix it. Likely I took lots of pictures and will share them with community in a near future.
While I am truly sorry for all the trouble you had, I will admit if having a failure. I would order some Sledge Amp right away. Since they seem to be reliable, and be done with-it.

That said as a side bar, while suggested to start a calibration with the gain on the subs around 12 o'clock. I start mine at 10 o'clock, and always get a reading from my Audyssey XT32 for been too high (in the 90 dB). And end-up with the gains level, around 8:30 o'clock.


Darth

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post #31571 of 31809 Old 09-24-2019, 10:55 PM
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Hi all,

I've had a PB-4000 for about a month. For the most part it's incredible although I'm seriously considering trading it for a JTR 2400 if I can get a hold of Jeff...

If I do stick with SVS I'm probably going to upsize to the PB-16. I had an interesting experience tonight that I'd like some thoughts on. I often read that SVS is nigh-on indestructible due to the built in protection. Is this protection exclusive to damage from over-driving (i.e. excursion) or is there thermal overload protection for the driver as well?

I ask because I was watching Logan tonight. Sub is in extended mode, 0dB (-3 in Audyssey) with MV around -10. There's a scene (Xavier in the hotel...) that has some insane bass, and a sustained low rumble for probably over a minute (edit: 3 minutes). If you've seen it you know the scene. It knocked a painting off my neighbor's wall...

Towards the end I noticed an odd smell - the smell of very hot electronics. I'm an electrical engineer and that smell is unmistakable. I didn't see smoke and the sub didn't skip a beat, but pretty clearly either the voice coil or the amp was getting HOT. Despite running the bass at a pretty high volume it was making no weird noises; no odd mechanical sounds, no chuffing. So that brings me to my question: should I be concerned that the sub will self destruct if I run the bass hot in scenes like this? If that scene had gone on another 30 seconds... I have no doubt SVS will take care of it if something dies but I'd like to know the limits all the same.

Anyone had their sub die from sustained bass in movies/music? I was pretty happy with the level of bass that thing was putting out but if this is on the edge and likely to damage something that's all the more reason to upgrade to a more powerful sub.

Last edited by Sergey Feingold; 09-25-2019 at 01:55 AM.
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post #31572 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Sergey Feingold View Post
Hi all,

I've had a PB-4000 for about a month. For the most part it's incredible although I'm seriously considering trading it for a JTR 2400 if I can get a hold of Jeff...

If I do stick with SVS I'm probably going to upsize to the PB-16. I had an interesting experience tonight that I'd like some thoughts on. I often read that SVS is nigh-on indestructible due to the built in protection. Is this protection exclusive to damage from over-driving (i.e. excursion) or is there thermal overload protection for the driver as well?

I ask because I was watching Logan tonight. Sub is in extended mode, 0dB (-3 in Audyssey) with MV around -10. There's a scene (Xavier in the hotel...) that has some insane bass, and a sustained low rumble for probably over a minute (edit: 3 minutes). If you've seen it you know the scene. It knocked a painting off my neighbor's wall...

Towards the end I noticed an odd smell - the smell of very hot electronics. I'm an electrical engineer and that smell is unmistakable. I didn't see smoke and the sub didn't skip a beat, but pretty clearly either the voice coil or the amp was getting HOT. Despite running the bass at a pretty high volume it was making no weird noises; no odd mechanical sounds, no chuffing. So that brings me to my question: should I be concerned that the sub will self destruct if I run the bass hot in scenes like this? If that scene had gone on another 30 seconds... I have no doubt SVS will take care of it if something dies but I'd like to know the limits all the same.

Anyone had their sub die from sustained bass in movies/music? I was pretty happy with the level of bass that thing was putting out but if this is on the edge and likely to damage something that's all the more reason to upgrade to a more powerful sub.

Hi Sergey,

According to what I have read, there is sometimes a residue of glue on the amplifier, or elsewhere, which can scorch if the subwoofer becomes very hot. That could have been what you smelled if the voice coil appears to be undamaged. In theory, I believe that the limiter and high-pass filter built-into the subwoofer should also provide thermal protection, but I don't think there is anything beyond those to provide specific thermal protection. And, as far as I know, that would be the case with any subwoofer.

Although sustained low-frequency sounds, especially involving sine waves, can damage a voice coil, my guess is that you didn't damage your sub. And, if you did, the warranty would cover it. With that said, I think that with a subwoofer setting of 0, and -3 in Audyssey (potentially also with DEQ engaged which would add another ~4.5db) and a volume of -10 MV, I think you are pushing your single subwoofer right to its limits. The fact that the PB4000 didn't make any bad sounds under those circumstances is a testament to its build quality.

But, my take on this is that if you want to continue to listen at those total bass volumes, you either need another PB4000 or you need to move-up in power. Frankly, I'm not sure that moving-up to a single PB16 would do it. The difference between the two models only averages about 3db below ~ 35Hz. I think you would get more total headroom, across the operating bandwidth, with dual PB4000's.

The subwoofers have approximately the same port tune, so you wouldn't gain any lower extension with the PB16, just more SPL from <35Hz, down to about 14 or 15Hz. (Your room gain would augment the lowest frequencies the subwoofers could play, regardless of the model involved.) And, dual subwoofers of the same model could add 6db, averaged across the full operating bandwidth of the subs.

Long-term, I think that you may be a good candidate for dual subs of whatever model you choose. The JTR Cap 2400ULF would be a good choice, given your affection for loud, low bass. The PSA TV36 iPal would be another excellent choice. That sub has a port tune of about 13.5Hz, rather than the 10Hz port tune of the Cap 2400. But, somewhere around 13 to 15Hz seems to be the sweet spot, for low-tuned ported subs, from every sub maker except Jeff. (Jeff admits that he is more of a niche designer.)

I like the capabilities of the Cap 2400ULF a lot, but I think the new TV36 iPal (which is a slightly larger, more expensive sub) is a better all-around performer. And, the customer service between the two is not comparable. If you do decide to move away from SVS subs, I would also take a hard look at the TV36 iPal. That's an outstanding subwoofer.

It's always tempting to encourage people to stay with the subs you own. I have three PB16's and a nearfield (22") PB4000, in my large room, on concrete. I am very happy with my subwoofers, in every respect, and there is literally no way that I can push them into any kind of distress at all. But, I am also aware of the reality that there are even more powerful subwoofers available, and that I could get equivalent headroom with fewer subwoofers, and less total expense.

When I try to help someone else with subwoofer selections, I think it is important to set aside my own circumstances and preferences and try to address his. Even though this is an SVS thread, that is what I have tried to do here.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 09-25-2019 at 07:13 AM.
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post #31573 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 07:31 AM
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I'm hoping someone can set me straight on whether an svs sb 4000 is enough for my room.

I have 2 monitor audio gold 15" subs but they are trash, vibrating on one and the other with no doubt a bad amp.

Performance was great when they were good but I have a 15×12×8 room with an open entrace on one side. I will be replacing my subs with just one at first and it will either be an sb 4000 or an sb 16 ultra. Room is small, got peaks I have to smooth.

I really reallly don't want to have to get an sb 16 ultra if I don't have to but also want a sub that unlike my others that had problems amd quality control issues from day one will sound great and just work. I have read amzing things about the sb 16 ultra but almost all reviews of the 4000 series are of the ported one.

If I were to watch blade runner 2049 with the sub at 0db ( not because I intend to...but because I want to know it is same to run and not on the verge of breaking if I were to ever turn it up from -10 etc ) at 0db on the receiver...would the sb 4000 bottom out of start to show distortion?

I know you can set a curve at the low end but I don't ever want to have to as I have implemented all kinds of limiters on my faulty subs to try and keep them tolerable and I just want to smooth the peaks and go with any source without worry.

Will probably run -10db and movies at -10db max volume.

Second sub will be bought next year, 2 is mandatory, after hearing how much it smooths the sound out I can never go back to one.

Thanks and sorry for rambling.
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post #31574 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 09:25 AM
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I'm hoping someone can set me straight on whether an svs sb 4000 is enough for my room.

I have 2 monitor audio gold 15" subs but they are trash, vibrating on one and the other with no doubt a bad amp.

Performance was great when they were good but I have a 15×12×8 room with an open entrace on one side. I will be replacing my subs with just one at first and it will either be an sb 4000 or an sb 16 ultra. Room is small, got peaks I have to smooth.

I really reallly don't want to have to get an sb 16 ultra if I don't have to but also want a sub that unlike my others that had problems amd quality control issues from day one will sound great and just work. I have read amzing things about the sb 16 ultra but almost all reviews of the 4000 series are of the ported one.

If I were to watch blade runner 2049 with the sub at 0db ( not because I intend to...but because I want to know it is same to run and not on the verge of breaking if I were to ever turn it up from -10 etc ) at 0db on the receiver...would the sb 4000 bottom out of start to show distortion?

I know you can set a curve at the low end but I don't ever want to have to as I have implemented all kinds of limiters on my faulty subs to try and keep them tolerable and I just want to smooth the peaks and go with any source without worry.

Will probably run -10db and movies at -10db max volume.

Second sub will be bought next year, 2 is mandatory, after hearing how much it smooths the sound out I can never go back to one.

Thanks and sorry for rambling.


Hi,

Questions like these are extremely difficult to answer, in my opinion. The only way to know for sure whether a specific subwoofer will be enough is to try one and see. In my personal opinion, the room size is not quite as important a consideration as a particular individual's desire for low and mid-bass SPL and TR. But FWIW, I will try to answer your questions.

First, any sub can bottom-out. The only real question is where it will finally happen. If you watched BR 2049 with your subwoofer gain at 0 and your AVR trim setting at 0.0, at a master volume of -10, I absolutely believe that a single SB4000 would run out of gas. (A single SB16 probably would as well, although you might not be having to push it quite as hard to achieve the same listening objectives.) Whether or not the SB4000 would make any audibly bad noises as it ran out of headroom is another question.

But, at some point, it would have just quit getting any louder at all. And, prior to that, there would probably be some compression, with mid-bass frequencies increasing while low-bass frequencies stayed the same. You might also be able to hear some frequencies clipping, with both your gain level and your trim level that high.

So, that's probably an honest answer to your question. The volume levels you mentioned would put a lot of demand on any single subwoofer. I couldn't find any third-party test data for your W15's, but based on the technical specs, I would expect a single SB4000 to be approximately equal to dual W15's in good operating condition. The SB4000 is a very good subwoofer, with excellent customer service as well, so I wouldn't expect you to experience any of the quality control problems you have described.

But again, the ability of any given subwoofer to sound good is somewhat dependent on how hard you choose to push it. Any subwoofer can be extended beyond its limits. One of the many benefits to buying SVS subwoofers is the free-trial period, with free return shipping. If I were you, I would take advantage of that. If I were in your place, I would buy a PB4000 rather than an SB4000.

The PB4000 can be operated in three separate modes, including sealed. I would try the PB4000 in all three modes, with the most demanding material I have, and pushing the subwoofer as hard as I ever thought I would. If the sealed mode is sufficient, you could always send the PB4000 back in exchange for an SB4000. If one of the ported modes gives you just a little more of what you like (it is the lowest frequencies which put the most demand on a subwoofer, and the ported model has a big advantage down to a little below its port tune) then you can simply keep the PB4000 and add a second one for improved frequency response when you can.

Of course, you can also use the free-trial period to test an SB4000 rather than the variable tune model. But, I am not entirely sure that a single SB4000 will satisfy you, in the short-term, until you can add the second one. As you know, adding the second sub will not only help to smooth the in-room frequency response, it will also add approximately 6db of headroom averaged across the bandwidth. Dual SB4000's are much more likely to satisfy you, long-term, than a single one would be.

The SB16 is also an option for the free-trial purchase, but since you are leaning toward the 4000 series, I kept my advice directed there. A single SB16 would also probably come closer to giving you what you are looking for than a single SB4000. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 09-25-2019 at 09:31 AM.
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post #31575 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 09:41 AM
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Hi Sergey,
I like the capabilities of the Cap 2400ULF a lot, but I think the new TV36 iPal (which is a slightly larger, more expensive sub) is a better all-around performer. And, the customer service between the two is not comparable. If you do decide to move away from SVS subs, I would also take a hard look at the TV36 iPal. That's an outstanding subwoofer.
Thank you for the detailed response!

I've looked at the PSA offerings quite a few times, and they're certainly tempting. I've also looked at the Rhythmik FV25HP. The eventual plan is to go dual with any of the choices, and the primary reason I've shied away from subs like the TV36 is the size. It's just too tall, there are no good places to put it where I currently live. I was mainly considering the 2400 (not the ULF) because it's relatively compact compared to either the Rhythmik or PSA. Of course I won't be in my current location forever and the next place I live may be better (or worse) in terms of fitting those large subs.

One thing I know for certain is that there's nobody I know who would come experience dual PB-16s (or even the single PB-4000) and say "yeah, you need more bass." So that's certainly an option. Jeff @ JTR has been somewhat responsive but overall it's taken 10 days to send a few e-mails, and it's been 3 days since I said "let's get an order started" with no response yet. So that is a pretty big concern.

Is there any test data available on the TV36 you're aware of?
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post #31576 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 10:49 AM
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Towards the end I noticed an odd smell - the smell of very hot electronics. I'm an electrical engineer and that smell is unmistakable. I didn't see smoke and the sub didn't skip a beat, but pretty clearly either the voice coil or the amp was getting HOT.
Being an EE... was it a tantalum smell, like when a large cap lets go? It probably wasn't - considering the amp kept working - but I know it's a pretty distinct smell when that cooks.

 
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post #31577 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 12:47 PM
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Thank you for the detailed response!

I've looked at the PSA offerings quite a few times, and they're certainly tempting. I've also looked at the Rhythmik FV25HP. The eventual plan is to go dual with any of the choices, and the primary reason I've shied away from subs like the TV36 is the size. It's just too tall, there are no good places to put it where I currently live. I was mainly considering the 2400 (not the ULF) because it's relatively compact compared to either the Rhythmik or PSA. Of course I won't be in my current location forever and the next place I live may be better (or worse) in terms of fitting those large subs.

One thing I know for certain is that there's nobody I know who would come experience dual PB-16s (or even the single PB-4000) and say "yeah, you need more bass." So that's certainly an option. Jeff @ JTR has been somewhat responsive but overall it's taken 10 days to send a few e-mails, and it's been 3 days since I said "let's get an order started" with no response yet. So that is a pretty big concern.

Is there any test data available on the TV36 you're aware of?
Before you jump the ship see if you can place PB4000 in the nearfield. Depending on your setup it may give you substantially higher SPL as well as smooth frequency response without the need for EQ. Though based on my personal experience with Sledge amps it may be a no go as the noise floor on sledge amps is really high. Changing amp settings (such as gain, PEQ...) has no effect on the noise floor. Anyhow something to try if you can accommodate nearfield placement.
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JimWilson: It wasn't a tantalum smell. It was the smell when you unpack a new bench power supply or open frame supply. It's that generic "new electronics smell." Which makes me think it's more than likely the amp as epoxy and magnet wire lacquer smells different. Nothing burning as far as I could tell. It could be that it just got properly warm (but in no real danger) for the first time and was outgassing enough that I noticed. And in that case it's no big deal but still made me wonder. I always assumed in subs of this caliber that A) if you aren't pushing the driver to over-excursion you won't damage anything, and B) the power handling capability of the driver is well beyond the max sustained output of the amp. The latter is an assumption based on looking at the specs of high-end subs in which this is often the case. If true the first conclusion is that thermal damage to the driver is all but impossible assuming no massive DC offset.

Tpaxadpom: There aren't great options for nearfield. Short of using it as a coffee table I suppose! The room is 12x35 (~3800 cu.ft. and open to two stairwells) and the screen is mounted on the long wall. Couch back against the opposite wall with the AV shelf on the right and my desk on the left. The sub is inside the fronts on the left, so if you're on the left side of the couch you're only about 6 feet away. Not sure what nearfield means for low bass. Mostly I see folks in here putting them right against the back of the couch but that's not an option here unfortunately. I really do like the SVS subs. The app is fantastically useful and the sub looks great. But...now that I've got an addiction and am seriously considering spending 1-2 months rent on subs I figure go big or go home, and it seems like SVS sets a lower cap on their limits than other less sane companies. I didn't realize it til I got a taste of real bass but some of those scenes with really low bass where you feel pressure waves in your head and can't figure out why are pretty addicting.
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post #31579 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 02:51 PM
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Thank you for the detailed response!

I've looked at the PSA offerings quite a few times, and they're certainly tempting. I've also looked at the Rhythmik FV25HP. The eventual plan is to go dual with any of the choices, and the primary reason I've shied away from subs like the TV36 is the size. It's just too tall, there are no good places to put it where I currently live. I was mainly considering the 2400 (not the ULF) because it's relatively compact compared to either the Rhythmik or PSA. Of course I won't be in my current location forever and the next place I live may be better (or worse) in terms of fitting those large subs.

One thing I know for certain is that there's nobody I know who would come experience dual PB-16s (or even the single PB-4000) and say "yeah, you need more bass." So that's certainly an option. Jeff @ JTR has been somewhat responsive but overall it's taken 10 days to send a few e-mails, and it's been 3 days since I said "let's get an order started" with no response yet. So that is a pretty big concern.

Is there any test data available on the TV36 you're aware of?

You are very welcome! There hasn't been any independent bench testing of the TV36 so far, although several owners have posted in-room frequency response graphs on the PSA subwoofer thread. If you examine them, they will give you a pretty good idea of the subwoofer's capabilities. One owner, @Hopinater had dual Cap 2400ULF's in his large room, on concrete, before switching to the TV36 iPal's. I remember that he did a pretty good write-up of his impressions. You might want to PM him to discuss the two subwoofers, if you are sufficiently interested.

Since you have already contacted Jeff about an order it sounds as if you are ready to pull the trigger. Unfortunately, communication issues are not unusual with his one-man shop, although his designs and build quality are first-rate. If you decide to go that way, I hope he gets back with you soon.

As you know, the larger cabinets have real advantages with respect to low-frequency SPL. It is possible to compensate for some of that, in a smaller cabinet, by using higher excursion drivers, and by directing more of the DSP into the lower frequencies, at the expense of some mid-bass. The pro-style Neo drivers work a little differently. They have mid-bass for miles, and the sub makers direct some of that excess SPL into the low-frequencies. And, they use larger cabinets. Data-Bass has tested the 21" iPal driver, and the results should be pretty comparable to the dual 18's in the TV36 iPal. Early user reports, from experienced sub owners, are very encouraging.

If you decide to go with a taller cabinet, don't forget that you can lay it on its side, and it will operate perfectly well that way. Jeff can also make the original low-profile version of the Cap 2400ULF, which is much longer than it is tall. Speaking personally, one of the things that I really like about both models of SVS ported Ultra's is the proportions. Most people speak of subwoofer aesthetics only in terms of the surface finish, or of chamfered edges. But, I also really like the overall proportions of the big SVS subs, as opposed to subs which are either very long or very tall.

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post #31580 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 04:25 PM
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JimWilson: It wasn't a tantalum smell. It was the smell when you unpack a new bench power supply or open frame supply. It's that generic "new electronics smell." Which makes me think it's more than likely the amp as epoxy and magnet wire lacquer smells different. Nothing burning as far as I could tell. It could be that it just got properly warm (but in no real danger) for the first time and was outgassing enough that I noticed.
If you can smell outgassing in a 3800 ft^3 room it must have been pretty potent. There may be nothing wrong but I would keep an eye on it for sure.

 
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post #31581 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 06:32 PM
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I'm hoping someone can set me straight on whether an svs sb 4000 is enough for my room.

I have 2 monitor audio gold 15" subs but they are trash, vibrating on one and the other with no doubt a bad amp.

Performance was great when they were good but I have a 15&#195;—12&#195;—8 room with an open entrace on one side. I will be replacing my subs with just one at first and it will either be an sb 4000 or an sb 16 ultra. Room is small, got peaks I have to smooth.

I really reallly don't want to have to get an sb 16 ultra if I don't have to but also want a sub that unlike my others that had problems amd quality control issues from day one will sound great and just work. I have read amzing things about the sb 16 ultra but almost all reviews of the 4000 series are of the ported one.

If I were to watch blade runner 2049 with the sub at 0db ( not because I intend to...but because I want to know it is same to run and not on the verge of breaking if I were to ever turn it up from -10 etc ) at 0db on the receiver...would the sb 4000 bottom out of start to show distortion?

I know you can set a curve at the low end but I don't ever want to have to as I have implemented all kinds of limiters on my faulty subs to try and keep them tolerable and I just want to smooth the peaks and go with any source without worry.

Will probably run -10db and movies at -10db max volume.

Second sub will be bought next year, 2 is mandatory, after hearing how much it smooths the sound out I can never go back to one.

Thanks and sorry for rambling.


Hi,

Questions like these are extremely difficult to answer, in my opinion. The only way to know for sure whether a specific subwoofer will be enough is to try one and see. In my personal opinion, the room size is not quite as important a consideration as a particular individual's desire for low and mid-bass SPL and TR. But FWIW, I will try to answer your questions.

First, any sub can bottom-out. The only real question is where it will finally happen. If you watched BR 2049 with your subwoofer gain at 0 and your AVR trim setting at 0.0, at a master volume of -10, I absolutely believe that a single SB4000 would run out of gas. (A single SB16 probably would as well, although you might not be having to push it quite as hard to achieve the same listening objectives.) Whether or not the SB4000 would make any audibly bad noises as it ran out of headroom is another question.

But, at some point, it would have just quit getting any louder at all. And, prior to that, there would probably be some compression, with mid-bass frequencies increasing while low-bass frequencies stayed the same. You might also be able to hear some frequencies clipping, with both your gain level and your trim level that high.

So, that's probably an honest answer to your question. The volume levels you mentioned would put a lot of demand on any single subwoofer. I couldn't find any third-party test data for your W15's, but based on the technical specs, I would expect a single SB4000 to be approximately equal to dual W15's in good operating condition. The SB4000 is a very good subwoofer, with excellent customer service as well, so I wouldn't expect you to experience any of the quality control problems you have described.

But again, the ability of any given subwoofer to sound good is somewhat dependent on how hard you choose to push it. Any subwoofer can be extended beyond its limits. One of the many benefits to buying SVS subwoofers is the free-trial period, with free return shipping. If I were you, I would take advantage of that. If I were in your place, I would buy a PB4000 rather than an SB4000.

The PB4000 can be operated in three separate modes, including sealed. I would try the PB4000 in all three modes, with the most demanding material I have, and pushing the subwoofer as hard as I ever thought I would. If the sealed mode is sufficient, you could always send the PB4000 back in exchange for an SB4000. If one of the ported modes gives you just a little more of what you like (it is the lowest frequencies which put the most demand on a subwoofer, and the ported model has a big advantage down to a little below its port tune) then you can simply keep the PB4000 and add a second one for improved frequency response when you can.

Of course, you can also use the free-trial period to test an SB4000 rather than the variable tune model. But, I am not entirely sure that a single SB4000 will satisfy you, in the short-term, until you can add the second one. As you know, adding the second sub will not only help to smooth the in-room frequency response, it will also add approximately 6db of headroom averaged across the bandwidth. Dual SB4000's are much more likely to satisfy you, long-term, than a single one would be.

The SB16 is also an option for the free-trial purchase, but since you are leaning toward the 4000 series, I kept my advice directed there. A single SB16 would also probably come closer to giving you what you are looking for than a single SB4000. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike

Thank so much for the response. My sub now has problems because of obvious defaults where one sub is clearly bottoming out whe both subs are runnjng the same source at the same volume so if an sb 4000 could potentially be twice as powerful as a properly functioning w15 then that's all I need to know as it will be plenty for me.
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post #31582 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 09:55 PM
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Hi all,

I've had a PB-4000 for about a month. For the most part it's incredible although I'm seriously considering trading it for a JTR 2400 if I can get a hold of Jeff...

If I do stick with SVS I'm probably going to upsize to the PB-16. I had an interesting experience tonight that I'd like some thoughts on. I often read that SVS is nigh-on indestructible due to the built in protection. Is this protection exclusive to damage from over-driving (i.e. excursion) or is there thermal overload protection for the driver as well?

I ask because I was watching Logan tonight. Sub is in extended mode, 0dB (-3 in Audyssey) with MV around -10. There's a scene (Xavier in the hotel...) that has some insane bass, and a sustained low rumble for probably over a minute (edit: 3 minutes). If you've seen it you know the scene. It knocked a painting off my neighbor's wall...

Towards the end I noticed an odd smell - the smell of very hot electronics. I'm an electrical engineer and that smell is unmistakable. I didn't see smoke and the sub didn't skip a beat, but pretty clearly either the voice coil or the amp was getting HOT. Despite running the bass at a pretty high volume it was making no weird noises; no odd mechanical sounds, no chuffing. So that brings me to my question: should I be concerned that the sub will self destruct if I run the bass hot in scenes like this? If that scene had gone on another 30 seconds... I have no doubt SVS will take care of it if something dies but I'd like to know the limits all the same.

Anyone had their sub die from sustained bass in movies/music? I was pretty happy with the level of bass that thing was putting out but if this is on the edge and likely to damage something that's all the more reason to upgrade to a more powerful sub.
Thermal protection isn't present on SVS subs, I'd know since I cooked two of their drivers during extreme music sessions (PB2000, PB12-Plus).

I thought the same thing you did but learned my lesson. (SVS replaced both drivers under warranty anyway...they're saints).

The only time I ever smelled something from my PB13s (which I assume is similar to the 4000 in terms of thermal capabilities) was when I was maxing them out while playing Maximum Excursion by bassotronics. Otherwise it seemed to handle my extended music sessions far better than the other subs only getting warm after an hour or 2 of continuous high SPL playback (I'm talking 127dB peaks).

You mention no audible artifacts but the sub was most likely stressed anyway. PB13 IMO was the best sub I've heard from SVS under stress. I could max those things all day without significant distortion to distract from the experience (to my ears anyway) and still greatly prefer them for music. I definitely can't say the same about the PB16s. I haven't really pushed the PB16s as hard (mostly because I actually don't like the way they sound for music) as my other subs but so far they seem to keep cooler.

Also 0dB(max gain?) on the amp and -3dB sub level seems pretty high to me.
I have the PB16s at -8dB on the amp and -8dB trim and I also watch all my movies at -10MV, but only have ~3dB headroom on most intense scenes.
I'd wager the PB4000 was literally giving all it had on that scene.
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Last edited by DarkEnigma; 09-25-2019 at 10:02 PM.
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post #31583 of 31809 Old 09-25-2019, 10:55 PM
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Also 0dB(max gain?) on the amp and -3dB sub level seems pretty high to me.
I have the PB16s at -8dB on the amp and -8dB trim and I also watch all my movies at -10MV, but only have ~3dB headroom on most intense scenes.
I'd wager the PB4000 was literally giving all it had on that scene.
Certainly seemed like it, but I wasn't complaining. Definitely adds to a scene like that to have the whole room shake.

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PB13 IMO was the best sub I've heard from SVS under stress. I could max those things all day without significant distortion to distract from the experience (to my ears anyway) and still greatly prefer them for music. I definitely can't say the same about the PB16s. I haven't really pushed the PB16s as hard (mostly because I actually don't like the way they sound for music)
Can you elaborate on this? What don't you like about the PB-16s for music?

I'm at that point where I think I've gathered all the information that's available on the SVS, PSA, JTR, Rhythmik subs and now I just need to spin the bottle and pick one.

mthomas47: damn you for making me seriously consider a TV36-IPAL. In a sense we're (on AVS) all sitting around hand-wringing about whether we want 20" or 21" wheels on our Bugatti Chiron. I'm sure I would be thrilled with dual PB-4000s. Or PB-16s. Or 2400s. Or FV25HPs. Or TV36's. Or FV18HPs...and so on til the end of time.

For now, I've made what I hope to remain a firm decision in that extra-giant subs like the TV36 or FV25HP are just more unwieldy than I want to deal with at this point. Maybe when I own a house it'll make sense, but I already have about ~8,000lb worth of stuff in my EE lab (I weighed the moving truck...) and the prospect of moving, effectively, 2 extra refrigerators every year or two is...bleh... And hell, none of us can honestly claim that saving money is a primary concern when discussing $5k+ sub arrangements. I'm OK with spending a little more money later to save the hassle for the next few years.

The non-ULF 2400 is a good size as is the FV18. And the cost of the TV36 is closer to the cost of dual FV18s. Both - from what I understand - have substantially more output and extension than even the PB-16, which is unfortunate because I'd love an excuse to stick with SVS. I get where SVS is coming from but I really wish they'd get a fire under their ass and make a sub to smack around the other ID companies. Just to do it as an engineering exercise. They certainly have the talent.

To me the PB-4000 sounds great for music and by most accounts the JTR is even better. Whether the FV18HP or TV36 is slightly more better, I think I'm already reaching my personal point of diminishing returns with any of these subs. I tend to believe that most great subs are probably more similar than they are different, and that the majority of remaining differences can be minimized with DSP, sufficient headroom, and sufficient measurement equipment. Given how few people or outfits have really gotten a chance to comprehensively and objectively compare most of these subs, it may be a while til I'm disabused of that belief if mistaken.

Anyway, I'm rambling and derailing what is an SVS thread. Open to more thoughts from others! At some point it's time to focus on the feeling of being 99.5% happy vs. focusing on what that last 0.5% might be like.
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Certainly seemed like it, but I wasn't complaining. Definitely adds to a scene like that to have the whole room shake.



Can you elaborate on this? What don't you like about the PB-16s for music?
They seem less articulate as the volume goes up. Notes sound like they just smear together near or at the limits.

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They seem less articulate as the volume goes up. Notes sound like they just smear together near or at the limits.
Did you have PB13Ultra with Bash amps or Sledge amps?
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Did you have PB13Ultra with Bash amps or Sledge amps?
They were sledge. I only had them for about a year. Upgraded to the 16s a couple months ago.

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post #31587 of 31809 Old 09-26-2019, 01:17 PM
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Hi all,

I've had a PB-4000 for about a month. For the most part it's incredible although I'm seriously considering trading it for a JTR 2400 if I can get a hold of Jeff...

If I do stick with SVS I'm probably going to upsize to the PB-16. I had an interesting experience tonight that I'd like some thoughts on. I often read that SVS is nigh-on indestructible due to the built in protection. Is this protection exclusive to damage from over-driving (i.e. excursion) or is there thermal overload protection for the driver as well?

I ask because I was watching Logan tonight. Sub is in extended mode, 0dB (-3 in Audyssey) with MV around -10. There's a scene (Xavier in the hotel...) that has some insane bass, and a sustained low rumble for probably over a minute (edit: 3 minutes). If you've seen it you know the scene. It knocked a painting off my neighbor's wall...

Towards the end I noticed an odd smell - the smell of very hot electronics. I'm an electrical engineer and that smell is unmistakable. I didn't see smoke and the sub didn't skip a beat, but pretty clearly either the voice coil or the amp was getting HOT. Despite running the bass at a pretty high volume it was making no weird noises; no odd mechanical sounds, no chuffing. So that brings me to my question: should I be concerned that the sub will self destruct if I run the bass hot in scenes like this? If that scene had gone on another 30 seconds... I have no doubt SVS will take care of it if something dies but I'd like to know the limits all the same.

Anyone had their sub die from sustained bass in movies/music? I was pretty happy with the level of bass that thing was putting out but if this is on the edge and likely to damage something that's all the more reason to upgrade to a more powerful sub.
Read all of the above back/forth too.......

The amp is Class D and runs pretty cool even at loud levels and it also has thermal protect - so I doubt it was the amp.

More than likely it was the VC getting hot. That is an 8-layer edge-wound VC so it has a lot of thermal capacity - I seriously doubt you hurt it with movie source material, even at loud volumes. it was likely just the insulation/varnish getting hot - which will definitely emit that 'warm electronics' odor if the subwoofer is ported.

The DSP limiter/compressor settings are designed around movie/music source content - not something like a steady sine wave test tone (which of course can eventually burn-up a coil).
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Anyone use the harmony elite or 950 to control the subs gain? What’s the best way to do this?

Also, since I have two PC4000, I was wondering if there is any suggestions to control each or both through the harmony for subs volume up and down?

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Read all of the above back/forth too.......

The amp is Class D and runs pretty cool even at loud levels and it also has thermal protect - so I doubt it was the amp.

More than likely it was the VC getting hot. That is an 8-layer edge-wound VC so it has a lot of thermal capacity - I seriously doubt you hurt it with movie source material, even at loud volumes. it was likely just the insulation/varnish getting hot - which will definitely emit that 'warm electronics' odor if the subwoofer is ported.

The DSP limiter/compressor settings are designed around movie/music source content - not something like a steady sine wave test tone (which of course can eventually burn-up a coil).
Thanks for the info Ed! I guess I can watch that scene again then.

It wasn't a sustained sine wave, but I don't think it's too far off. It's a loud, sustained, low rumble that lasts for ~3 minutes without letting up. If you get a chance to watch that scene you'll know what I mean. Appreciate the info though, helps put my mind at ease.
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post #31590 of 31809 Old 09-26-2019, 03:04 PM
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Thanks for the info Ed! I guess I can watch that scene again then.

It wasn't a sustained sine wave, but I don't think it's too far off. It's a loud, sustained, low rumble that lasts for ~3 minutes without letting up. If you get a chance to watch that scene you'll know what I mean. Appreciate the info though, helps put my mind at ease.
Great movie - yeah that scene has a lot of broadband content - it's a work-out for any sub at a high playback level.

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