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post #31651 of 31818 Old 10-22-2019, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DarkEnigma View Post
If you're not going to use a subwoofer, the ultra towers will be worth the wait.
Agreed. I think you would find the Ultra Bookshelf sound quality (imaging, soundstage, detail, etc.) to be an upgrade - but the RTi8 is no slouch in the bass department, so you would be losing extension/dynamic output. I would look at Prime Pinnacle or Ultra Tower to get the deep/dynamic bass you are accustomed to.
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post #31652 of 31818 Old 10-22-2019, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEnigma View Post
If you're not going to use a subwoofer, the ultra towers will be worth the wait.
Agreed. I think you would find the Ultra Bookshelf sound quality (imaging, soundstage, detail, etc.) to be an upgrade - but the RTi8 is no slouch in the bass department, so you would be losing extension/dynamic output. I would look at Prime Pinnacle or Ultra Tower to get the deep/dynamic bass you are accustomed to.
Ed-how different is the PB16 form the PC4000s that I have?? A little or a lot?

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post #31653 of 31818 Old 10-22-2019, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
How does the PC(PB)4000 compare to the 16 in those lower freq?
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Ed-how different is the PB16 form the PC4000s that I have?? A little or a lot?

Hi,

I just got back from a tough business trip and saw your question. A single PC4000 would be virtually identical to a single PB16 from about 35Hz up. The PB16 has about a 3db advantage over the PC4000 from about 35Hz down to about 14 or 15Hz. The two subwoofers have approximately the same tuning point so there would be no advantage in the larger PB16 below about 14Hz. For instance, they measure the same max SPL at 12.5Hz.

A pair of PC4000's will exceed a single PB16 everywhere, and a pair of PB16's would only offer that same 3db increase over the dual PC4000's at the frequencies described above. Unless you are in a larger room (maybe >3000^3), or unless you feel that you are specifically lacking sufficient low-frequency SPL or TR after cranking your PC4000's up to loud volume levels, you are not likely to achieve a substantial benefit from the upgrade.

When I upgraded, I was aware that the PB16's had more overall bass weight then the Ultra's they replaced, but it was an incremental difference and not what some people would describe as a night-and-day difference. I did it more because I am in a large room (6000^3) on concrete, and because I could, rather than because my earlier PB13's (which the PB/PC 4000's replaced) were actually lacking.

Regards,
Mike
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post #31654 of 31818 Old 10-23-2019, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
How does the PC(PB)4000 compare to the 16 in those lower freq?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Ed-how different is the PB16 form the PC4000s that I have?? A little or a lot?

Hi,

I just got back from a tough business trip and saw your question. A single PC4000 would be virtually identical to a single PB16 from about 35Hz up. The PB16 has about a 3db advantage over the PC4000 from about 35Hz down to about 14 or 15Hz. The two subwoofers have approximately the same tuning point so there would be no advantage in the larger PB16 below about 14Hz. For instance, they measure the same max SPL at 12.5Hz.

A pair of PC4000's will exceed a single PB16 everywhere, and a pair of PB16's would only offer that same 3db increase over the dual PC4000's at the frequencies described above. Unless you are in a larger room (maybe >3000^3), or unless you feel that you are specifically lacking sufficient low-frequency SPL or TR after cranking your PC4000's up to loud volume levels, you are not likely to achieve a substantial benefit from the upgrade.

When I upgraded, I was aware that the PB16's had more overall bass weight then the Ultra's they replaced, but it was an incremental difference and not what some people would describe as a night-and-day difference. I did it more because I am in a large room (6000^3) on concrete, and because I could, rather than because my earlier PB13's (which the PB/PC 4000's replaced) were actually lacking.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the response. I think I’ll be good with my dual PC4000. It’s only a small room 1600v3 but it opens to the rest of the basement on one side but seems to be still enough thump and never maxed out the gain yet
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post #31655 of 31818 Old 10-24-2019, 10:06 AM
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Dual SB12-NSD vs single SB-2000

Hello

Currently, I have one SB-2000 which I got back in 2013. I wanted to add an extra SB-2000 to go dual. The local SVS dealer has the SB-2000 for about 1000$ in my country. However, he told me that he still has 2 last new SB12-NSD subs in stock. I can have both of them with a 5-year warranty for an extra 800$ if I return by SB-2000 for a trade-in deal.

How does the SB12NSD compare to the SB-2000, especially for dual subs for music mostly? Is this a better deal than paying 200$ extra to get a new SB-2000 and keep the older one?


Thanks
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post #31656 of 31818 Old 10-24-2019, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
Hello

Currently, I have one SB-2000 which I got back in 2013. I wanted to add an extra SB-2000 to go dual. The local SVS dealer has the SB-2000 for about 1000$ in my country. However, he told me that he still has 2 last new SB12-NSD subs in stock. I can have both of them with a 5-year warranty for an extra 800$ if I return by SB-2000 for a trade-in deal.

How does the SB12NSD compare to the SB-2000, especially for dual subs for music mostly? Is this a better deal than paying 200$ extra to get a new SB-2000 and keep the older one?


Thanks
I don't remember the details*, but the SB-2000 is an upgrade over the SB-12. Get the 2nd SB2000.

*IIRC it has greater maximum output, slightly lower extension, and slightly better sound quality.
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post #31657 of 31818 Old 10-24-2019, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
Hello

Currently, I have one SB-2000 which I got back in 2013. I wanted to add an extra SB-2000 to go dual. The local SVS dealer has the SB-2000 for about 1000$ in my country. However, he told me that he still has 2 last new SB12-NSD subs in stock. I can have both of them with a 5-year warranty for an extra 800$ if I return by SB-2000 for a trade-in deal.

How does the SB12NSD compare to the SB-2000, especially for dual subs for music mostly? Is this a better deal than paying 200$ extra to get a new SB-2000 and keep the older one?


Thanks
Compared to the SB12-NSD, the SB-2000 has about 3-3.5 dB higher dynamic output across the board, in addition to deeper extension and a shallower roll-off slope.

I would recommend adding another SB-2000. I would not mix and SB12-NSD and an SB-2000 - they are different amp platforms with different phase responses.
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post #31658 of 31818 Old 10-25-2019, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I just got back from a tough business trip and saw your question. A single PC4000 would be virtually identical to a single PB16 from about 35Hz up. The PB16 has about a 3db advantage over the PC4000 from about 35Hz down to about 14 or 15Hz. The two subwoofers have approximately the same tuning point so there would be no advantage in the larger PB16 below about 14Hz. For instance, they measure the same max SPL at 12.5Hz.

A pair of PC4000's will exceed a single PB16 everywhere, and a pair of PB16's would only offer that same 3db increase over the dual PC4000's at the frequencies described above. Unless you are in a larger room (maybe >3000^3), or unless you feel that you are specifically lacking sufficient low-frequency SPL or TR after cranking your PC4000's up to loud volume levels, you are not likely to achieve a substantial benefit from the upgrade.

When I upgraded, I was aware that the PB16's had more overall bass weight then the Ultra's they replaced, but it was an incremental difference and not what some people would describe as a night-and-day difference. I did it more because I am in a large room (6000^3) on concrete, and because I could, rather than because my earlier PB13's (which the PB/PC 4000's replaced) were actually lacking.

Regards,
Mike
While been out of the present subject. I Hope your are doing fine, since we are friend. And know your position
Now back to subject at hand


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post #31659 of 31818 Old 10-26-2019, 05:09 AM
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I live in the UK and I bought a couple of watt meters which arrived today. If anyone is curious as to how much power the PB-1000 uses when in standby, it's 0.2W. When on but not playing, it's ~11W. Currently listening to music at -20MV and the power usage is always <16W. My subwoofer is probably about 12-13dB hot (6dB hot on the trim + gain increase of 6 detents).

My Denon AVR-X3300W uses ~42W in Eco Mode and ~75W with Eco Mode turned off. On the Denon website they mention 45W and 80W, respectively. But they're probably being a little safe with their stated figures so that nobody complains.

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post #31660 of 31818 Old 10-26-2019, 07:33 PM
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I've got a Prime center in a Salamander Triple 21 cabinet because the tv is on top of the stand. I'm having a new tv wall mounted so I'll have the top free, would moving the center on top improve the sound? I have the Prime Towers on either side for reference.
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post #31661 of 31818 Old 10-27-2019, 07:14 AM
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I've got a Prime center in a Salamander Triple 21 cabinet because the tv is on top of the stand. I'm having a new tv wall mounted so I'll have the top free, would moving the center on top improve the sound? I have the Prime Towers on either side for reference.

Hi,

I can't click on the image you provided, but I think I can visualize your situation well enough from your description. Typically, placing a center channel (or other speaker) inside a cabinet creates some distortion due to reflections from the cabinet walls. So, getting that speaker out of the cabinet, and on top of it, should give you clearer sound. You may especially notice that with respect to dialogue intelligibility for movies and TV.

There are two things I would advise you to do that will further enhance your sound quality. First, make sure you pull your CC forward so that it overlaps the front edge of the cabinet by about an inch. Sound waves leave the speakers in a cone shape, so that will help with unwanted reflections from the cabinet surface. Second, it would be a good idea to make sure that the speaker is pointed more-or-less directly at your seated ear level. You can shim-up your speaker slightly if you need to.

Be sure to rerun any automated room correction, such as Audyssey or YPAO, after repositioning the speaker.

Regards,
Mike
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post #31662 of 31818 Old 10-27-2019, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I can't click on the image you provided, but I think I can visualize your situation well enough from your description. Typically, placing a center channel (or other speaker) inside a cabinet creates some distortion due to reflections from the cabinet walls. So, getting that speaker out of the cabinet, and on top of it, should give you clearer sound. You may especially notice that with respect to dialogue intelligibility for movies and TV.

There are two things I would advise you to do that will further enhance your sound quality. First, make sure you pull your CC forward so that it overlaps the front edge of the cabinet by about an inch. Sound waves leave the speakers in a cone shape, so that will help with unwanted reflections from the cabinet surface. Second, it would be a good idea to make sure that the speaker is pointed more-or-less directly at your seated ear level. You can shim-up your speaker slightly if you need to.

Be sure to rerun any automated room correction, such as Audyssey or YPAO, after repositioning the speaker.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you, don't know why the photo isn't uploading but you've validated my thinking on the subject. I figured getting the center more to ear level would help but I didn't think about reflections, etc.
I bought the Prime Towers in piano gloss but saved a hundred on the center by going black oak, never thinking it would be visible, if anything maybe the dull finish will keep down reflections from the tv. Most people mount tv's too high but I am mounting just above the center, probably eight inches, for better sight lines. Off to one side i'm finally adding a turntable.
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post #31663 of 31818 Old 10-27-2019, 06:13 PM
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Are there SVS models that utilize Servo control?

Hi

I was wondering if any of the SVS subwoofers employ a servo based closed-loop control system? I mean where you have an additional sensing coil built into the driver, which is used for determining the actual location of the membrane/voice coil, for a better transient response ("fast bass"). I've been told that this approach is superior to any conventional open-loop approaches. If not, I'd love to hear Ed's comments about this subject.

Thanks
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post #31664 of 31818 Old 10-27-2019, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
Hi



I was wondering if any of the SVS subwoofers employ a servo based closed-loop control system? I mean where you have an additional sensing coil built into the driver, which is used for determining the actual location of the membrane/voice coil, for a better transient response ("fast bass"). I've been told that this approach is superior to any conventional open-loop approaches. If not, I'd love to hear Ed's comments about this subject.



Thanks


No they don’t, but they do offer a lot of driver protection. Fast bass? Not a thing. 30hz is 30hz. Poor integration with the rest of the system can make bass seem slow, but it’s a not function of the sub itself. At least not well
Designed ones.
Ed can explain their thoughts on servos.
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post #31665 of 31818 Old 10-28-2019, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mylan View Post
I've got a Prime center in a Salamander Triple 21 cabinet because the tv is on top of the stand. I'm having a new tv wall mounted so I'll have the top free, would moving the center on top improve the sound? I have the Prime Towers on either side for reference.
I agree with all of Mike's comments, but unlike him, I was able to open your picture.

Is that speaker cloth on the cabinet door, or is it some sort of metal mesh? If it is not speaker cloth, along with the benefits Mike already mentioned, you are going to notice a HUGE difference in sound quality from the center just be removing an obstruction like that from in front of the speaker.
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post #31666 of 31818 Old 10-28-2019, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I agree with all of Mike's comments, but unlike him, I was able to open your picture.

Is that speaker cloth on the cabinet door, or is it some sort of metal mesh? If it is not speaker cloth, along with the benefits Mike already mentioned, you are going to notice a HUGE difference in sound quality from the center just be removing an obstruction like that from in front of the speaker.
It is metal mesh, I went with that because it passes I.R. and the reason I left the grill off. Yeah I think i'm going to wish I had done this sooner, thank you for your input!
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post #31667 of 31818 Old 10-28-2019, 12:12 PM
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It is metal mesh, I went with that because it passes I.R. and the reason I left the grill off. Yeah I think i'm going to wish I had done this sooner, thank you for your input!
Yeah, metal mesh is great for allowing more ventilation to equipment...not so great at passing sound waves through.
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post #31668 of 31818 Old 10-28-2019, 02:25 PM
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Thoughts on a used SVS PB12 NSD older model for 160 euro?
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post #31669 of 31818 Old 10-28-2019, 02:28 PM
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It is metal mesh, I went with that because it passes I.R. and the reason I left the grill off. Yeah I think i'm going to wish I had done this sooner, thank you for your input!
At first listen with regular tv there is a night and day difference but I still have to rerun YPAO.
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post #31670 of 31818 Old 10-28-2019, 02:49 PM
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At first listen with regular tv there is a night and day difference but I still have to rerun YPAO.
Great to hear!
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Ed has been great by answering questions but for those who used ported and sealed subwoofers. Will I be disappointed coming from a ported 18hz to SB 4000 sealed. Or am I only comparing apples to oranges.

I’m more of a movie guy but music is important too and listen to moderate volume -20 away from reference level w/ dynamic eq on.

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@mylan

Just to add to Mike @mthomas47 and Alan @Alan P, great suggestion's that I very much agree with. Moving the shelving down by an inch, will permit you to angle up a little. And moving your Center speaker past the shelf, so is removing that door. Since both will create some early reflection point, and never good to have. Will give you a better sound from your Center speaker.

Here's some instructions, I wrote a few years ago. To find to perfect angle;

-First, go get yourself a cheap laserpointer, a flat one if possible.
-Then put-it on top of one of your main (does not matter which one, since they are both the same height).
-Point at your listening area.
-Put a piece of tape to mark the position.
-measure with a ruler the distance from the top of the speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your piece of tape at your listening area and subtract that distance going down.
-Put a new piece of tape and remove the first one.
-Now do the same for the center speaker with a little difference.
-First measure the distance from the top of the center speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your main listening area.
-Remember piece of tape #2
-now take the distance from the top of your center to the center of tweeter and go up from the piece of tape #2 to that distance.
-put piece of tape #3 , and piece of tape #2 can be remove if you like, since it was the distance of your main speakers tweeter.
-put the laser pointer on top of your center
-adjust angle until the light hit that piece of tape (#3 ).
Now you're done, all tweeters should hit the main listening position at the same height(for the main listening position)."
Also, Make sure your center speaker is sticking out of the cabinet by about an inch.
Sound reflection from the edge of a cabinet can play havoc on your sound.

And if you want to follow, those instruction's. I also suggest that you paste, copy and print them. Instead of going by memory, since it is a step by step.


Darth
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post #31673 of 31818 Old 10-29-2019, 08:32 AM
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Extended Mode

I've got two PB4000's coming tomorrow and I was wondering, what would be a reason NOT to use the extended mode?

Pioneer SC-95, Axiom M80, VP180, Dual SVS PB-4000 subs, ISCO III, RS540 + Stewart Cima Neve 133
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post #31674 of 31818 Old 10-29-2019, 08:46 AM
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I've got two PB4000's coming tomorrow and I was wondering, what would be a reason NOT to use the extended mode?


Possibly being in a gigantic room. Lowering the tune will increase extension, but that also adds a lot of excursion. In any normalish sized room you’ll probably be fine. Plus SVS builds in a lot of protection.
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post #31675 of 31818 Old 10-29-2019, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airborn007 View Post
Ed has been great by answering questions but for those who used ported and sealed subwoofers. Will I be disappointed coming from a ported 18hz to SB 4000 sealed. Or am I only comparing apples to oranges.



I’m more of a movie guy but music is important too and listen to moderate volume -20 away from reference level w/ dynamic eq on.


I think it’s apples and oranges. If using a single cod definitely go with a PB vs an SB. Especially for movies, w Deq on. Music will still be nice and tight/smooth as well. Great subwoofers.
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post #31676 of 31818 Old 10-29-2019, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
Possibly being in a gigantic room. Lowering the tune will increase extension, but that also adds a lot of excursion. In any normalish sized room you’ll probably be fine. Plus SVS builds in a lot of protection.
Thanks!

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post #31677 of 31818 Old 10-29-2019, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
I've got two PB4000's coming tomorrow and I was wondering, what would be a reason NOT to use the extended mode?
You will have less dynamic headroom from 20~40Hz if you use the extended mode.

In my experience the sound signature is also different.

You'll have to listen to it yourself to understand.

5.2.2 | Samsung KS8500 | Sony UBP-X800 | Yamaha RX-A1060 | SVS Ultra Center | SVS Ultra Towers | SVS Ultra Bookshelves | SVS Prime Elevations | 2x PB16-Ultra | Emotiva XPA-3 Gen3 | Emotiva BasX A-300
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post #31678 of 31818 Old 10-29-2019, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyrythm1k View Post
I think it’s apples and oranges. If using a single cod definitely go with a PB vs an SB. Especially for movies, w Deq on. Music will still be nice and tight/smooth as well. Great subwoofers.
I would go for the PB4000 but it’s just too massive and I’m not interested in the 3000 series.

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post #31679 of 31818 Old 10-29-2019, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
@mylan

Just to add to Mike @mthomas47 and Alan @Alan P, great

suggestion's that I very much agree with. Moving the shelving down by an inch, will permit you to angle up a little. And moving your Center speaker past the shelf, so is removing that door. Since both will create some early reflection point, and never good to have. Will give you a better sound from your Center speaker.

Here's some instructions, I wrote a few years ago. To find to perfect angle;

-First, go get yourself a cheap laserpointer, a flat one if possible.
-Then put-it on top of one of your main (does not matter which one, since they are both the same height).
-Point at your listening area.
-Put a piece of tape to mark the position.
-measure with a ruler the distance from the top of the speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your piece of tape at your listening area and subtract that distance going down.
-Put a new piece of tape and remove the first one.
-Now do the same for the center speaker with a little difference.
-First measure the distance from the top of the center speaker to the center of the tweeter.
-Go back to your main listening area.
-Remember piece of tape #2
-now take the distance from the top of your center to the center of tweeter and go up from the piece of tape #2 to that distance.
-put piece of tape #3 , and piece of tape #2 can be remove if you like, since it was the distance of your main speakers tweeter.
-put the laser pointer on top of your center
-adjust angle until the light hit that piece of tape (#3 ).
Now you're done, all tweeters should hit the main listening position at the same height(for the main listening position)."
Also, Make sure your center speaker is sticking out of the cabinet by about an inch.
Sound reflection from the edge of a cabinet can play havoc on your sound.

And if you want to follow, those instruction's. I also suggest that you paste, copy and print them. Instead of going by memory, since it is a step by step.


Darth
Darth, thank you for your detailed response, I plan on following it to the letter. Today I spent hooking up the 4k blu ray player, and honestly just sitting and staring at this new monster tv I just had mounted and being blown away.
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post #31680 of 31818 Old 10-29-2019, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mylan View Post
Darth, thank you for your detailed response, I plan on following it to the letter. Today I spent hooking up the 4k blu ray player, and honestly just sitting and staring at this new monster tv I just had mounted and being blown away.
You will enjoy 4K, made the word of difference for me. And I use a front projector, for an 114" diagonal screen sitting at 12fts from the front

If you have any questions, about my instructions. Feel free to either "quote me", "mention me" or PM me. Since I response to many posts and thread, and may bypass this one. And will be glad to help you!


Darth
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Last edited by darthray; 10-29-2019 at 07:56 PM.
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