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post #31981 of 32361 Old 12-14-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by promtber View Post
So to keep my topic going. I have the PB12 and it sounds really good just large and doesn’t match my Ultra towers in piano. What would you pick for a good movie / music sub for a 20x20 room normal ceiling heights. I currently have a Denon 4500.

1 PC2000
2 PC4000
3 SB3000
4 SB4000
5 Just keep what I have
You could try a sb4000 but I think you will lose some output down low. I was in the same position with you about the piano black and ended up going with a pb4000 but might be switching to a 16u

5.2.4
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post #31982 of 32361 Old 12-14-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by promtber View Post
So to keep my topic going. I have the PB12 and it sounds really good just large and doesn’t match my Ultra towers in piano. What would you pick for a good movie / music sub for a 20x20 room normal ceiling heights. I currently have a Denon 4500.

1 PC2000
2 PC4000
3 SB3000
4 SB4000
5 Just keep what I have

Hi,

I think it's important to be able to differentiate between the relative capabilities of ported and sealed subs, with respect to both bass volume (SPL), and with respect to tactile response (TR). A ported sub will have much more <35Hz SPL, and much more low-bass TR than a comparable sealed sub. Low-bass TR includes the rumbling, vibrating, thudding effects that we feel in movies.

Below about 30Hz or so, it can be difficult to separate what we hear from what we feel, so those deep bass sensations can be quite important to many people.

You currently have a ported sub, so you are already experiencing some of the low-bass TR that I referred to. You might miss those deep bass sensations if you moved to a sealed sub. You would have to move up to at least an SB4000 to equal the low-bass (<30Hz) SPL of your PB12-NSD, and you still wouldn't equal the low-bass TR. (The SB3000 or 4000 would have a lot more mid-bass SPL, though.)

So, if you are looking for more low-bass sound and TR, in order to fully enjoy the special effects in movies, you will need to move-up to at least the PC2000 (P for ported) for an incremental upgrade, and to the PC4000 for a really substantial upgrade. (Both of those subs will also have more mid-bass SPL than you have now. The PC4000 will simply have more of everything, and it will have a lot more than the PC2000.)

Unless you are specifically looking for more mid-bass, and not necessarily for more low-bass excitement, I would exclude the sealed subs (#3 and #4 ) from consideration. Ideally, it is better to buy the best sub you can afford. Otherwise, this upgrade is not likely to be the last one for you. I would move-up to a PC4000, if I were you. And, if I ever found myself wanting even more than that, or an improved frequency response, I could always add a second one.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31983 of 32361 Old 12-14-2019, 07:19 PM
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Great info . I do like the PC 4000 just so expensive. It’s doable. Is dual PC2000 better than single PC4000? Maybe I can buy one and maybe later get another. But I do like the look of single to make a happy wife.
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post #31984 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I think it's important to be able to differentiate between the relative capabilities of ported and sealed subs, with respect to both bass volume (SPL), and with respect to tactile response (TR). A ported sub will have much more <35Hz SPL, and much more low-bass TR than a comparable sealed sub. Low-bass TR includes the rumbling, vibrating, thudding effects that we feel in movies.

Below about 30Hz or so, it can be difficult to separate what we hear from what we feel, so those deep bass sensations can be quite important to many people.

You currently have a ported sub, so you are already experiencing some of the low-bass TR that I referred to. You might miss those deep bass sensations if you moved to a sealed sub. You would have to move up to at least an SB4000 to equal the low-bass (<30Hz) SPL of your PB12-NSD, and you still wouldn't equal the low-bass TR. (The SB3000 or 4000 would have a lot more mid-bass SPL, though.)

So, if you are looking for more low-bass sound and TR, in order to fully enjoy the special effects in movies, you will need to move-up to at least the PC2000 (P for ported) for an incremental upgrade, and to the PC4000 for a really substantial upgrade. (Both of those subs will also have more mid-bass SPL than you have now. The PC4000 will simply have more of everything, and it will have a lot more than the PC2000.)

Unless you are specifically looking for more mid-bass, and not necessarily for more low-bass excitement, I would exclude the sealed subs (#3 and #4 ) from consideration. Ideally, it is better to buy the best sub you can afford. Otherwise, this upgrade is not likely to be the last one for you. I would move-up to a PC4000, if I were you. And, if I ever found myself wanting even more than that, or an improved frequency response, I could always add a second one.

Regards,
Mike
I have the pc13 ultra which is much like the pc4000 so if i want more then i should add another one. The problem is theres no more space for a pb or pc but i might fit an sb2000 or sb3000. Would you recommend this if i can only put it in 1 location 2meters away from my pc13 ultra? I have a denon x4500 with audyssey xt32 and 2 sub outs.
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post #31985 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by promtber View Post
Great info . I do like the PC 4000 just so expensive. It’s doable. Is dual PC2000 better than single PC4000? Maybe I can buy one and maybe later get another. But I do like the look of single to make a happy wife.
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Originally Posted by joms View Post
I have the pc13 ultra which is much like the pc4000 so if i want more then i should add another one. The problem is theres no more space for a pb or pc but i might fit an sb2000 or sb3000. Would you recommend this if i can only put it in 1 location 2meters away from my pc13 ultra? I have a denon x4500 with audyssey xt32 and 2 sub outs.

I will try to answer both quoted questions in one post. With respect to the first question, dual PC2000's will come close to a single PC4000 at some frequencies, but if you try that and still want more, you will still need to move to dual PC4000's to get it. And, dual PC2000's will never be as strong below 20Hz as a single PC4000. Personally, I would just start with a PC4000, if I were you, and could afford to do so.


With respect to the question in the second post, I would not recommend mixing ported subs and sealed subs. Together they might actually sound worse than the single PC13 does now. And, it might sound much worse if the two subs start cancelling each other at about 30Hz or so. You could actually lose some of your deeper bass, and XT-32 with SubEQ won't be able to help you integrate two subs with very different frequency responses.

All the two sub outs do is allow Audyssey to set distance (timing) and levels separately for two subs. That part is helpful, but the two different subs are still EQed based on their combined frequency response. If the subs don't match to begin with, and can't help each other by filling-in dips at some frequencies and pulling down peaks at others (which is what we would like for dual subs to do) then Audyssey can't really do much about that.

The bottom line is that you need for your subs to match, especially ported with ported, and ideally with the same port tune as well. Even then, getting two subs to play well together isn't automatically easy, because the room itself is still messing with your frequency response, depending on the specific subwoofer positions you choose.

(If you stack two identical subs, or place them side-by-side, you take room influences completely out of the equation, and you have 6db more at every frequency, but no improvement in frequency response. The two subs just act as a single larger sub.)

I would start by making sure that are you getting the most you can from your current PC13, including turning-up the volume more if necessary, and then look harder for a second PC or PB13 position (including some slight furniture rearrangement) if obtaining even more bass than that is really important to you.

Section II of the Guide, linked below, may help if you want to understand a little more about implementing subwoofer volume increases. (Hint: you can get just a little more undistorted SPL from the PC13 if you use the sub's own gain control to increase your subwoofer volume. That idea doesn't apply as much to the newer models.)


I hope that helps, guys because I'm tapped-out.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31986 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I will try to answer both quoted questions in one post. With respect to the first question, dual PC2000's will come close to a single PC4000 at some frequencies, but if you try that and still want more, you will still need to move to dual PC4000's to get it. And, dual PC2000's will never be as strong below 20Hz as a single PC4000. Personally, I would just start with a PC4000, if I were you, and could afford to do so.


With respect to the question in the second post, I would not recommend mixing ported subs and sealed subs. Together they might actually sound worse than the single PC13 does now. And, it might sound much worse if the two subs start cancelling each other at about 30Hz or so. You could actually lose some of your deeper bass, and XT-32 with SubEQ won't be able to help you integrate two subs with very different frequency responses.

All the two sub outs do is allow Audyssey to set distance (timing) and levels separately for two subs. That part is helpful, but the two different subs are still EQed based on their combined frequency response. If the subs don't match to begin with, and can't help each other by filling-in dips at some frequencies and pulling down peaks at others (which is what we would like for dual subs to do) then Audyssey can't really do much about that.

The bottom line is that you need for your subs to match, especially ported with ported, and ideally with the same port tune as well. Even then, getting two subs to play well together isn't automatically easy, because the room itself is still messing with your frequency response, depending on the specific subwoofer positions you choose.

(If you stack two identical subs, or place them side-by-side, you take room influences completely out of the equation, and you have 6db more at every frequency, but no improvement in frequency response. The two subs just act as a single larger sub.)

I would start by making sure that are you getting the most you can from your current PC13, including turning-up the volume more if necessary, and then look harder for a second PC or PB13 position (including some slight furniture rearrangement) if obtaining even more bass than that is really important to you.

Section II of the Guide, linked below, may help if you want to understand a little more about implementing subwoofer volume increases. (Hint: you can get just a little more undistorted SPL from the PC13 if you use the sub's own gain control to increase your subwoofer volume. That idea doesn't apply as much to the newer models.)


I hope that helps, guys because I'm tapped-out.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks for the terrific reply. In this case, given that i use my system 90% for movies and 10% for music, would having 1x SVS PC13 Ultra still be a better choice than 2x SB3000 ? (note: as much as i want to a have 2x ported subs, there really isn't any room for a 2nd ported one unless someone invents a small ported sub that is around 15x15x15 inches only)
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post #31987 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 07:59 AM
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Help with PC4000:

I just received a new PC4000 to replace my Seaton MFW Turbo to appease my wife. She likes the cylinder form factor a lot. I figured given the MFW compact enclosure, performance wise they would be close and that the SVS would behave well at its limits so I could push it hard to keep up. I've several SVS subs in the past so figured I knew what i was getting. Either my vaulted ceilings don't work with the upfiring port or I got a bad unit, cause the PC is an enormous drop in output and even more so in tactile energy. The 4000 sounded like it was bottoming out pushing it on music hard, marking a farting sound on full excursion and on low bass tracks just didn't do much in the room. The MFW behaves much better at max output and has much more everywhere from 20 hz up. The issue is I have to run the gain very high on the 4000, to get any tactile bass out of it, so on tv, voices sound awful, very heavy and bloated. My wife really likes the look and it does free up floor space but I can't in conscious pay twice the price for this much decreased output. Did I just get a bad unit or is this normal of the 4000 series? I figured a high excursion 13.5" with 1200watts would be even match for a mid excursion 15" with only 700 watts. The PC enclosure is bigger as well by about 10%.

Any thoughts on what could be off with the PC4000? I did check and the port configuration is at all ports open in the app.
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post #31988 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 09:59 AM
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Thanks for the terrific reply. In this case, given that i use my system 90% for movies and 10% for music, would having 1x SVS PC13 Ultra still be a better choice than 2x SB3000 ? (note: as much as i want to a have 2x ported subs, there really isn't any room for a 2nd ported one unless someone invents a small ported sub that is around 15x15x15 inches only)

You are very welcome! If you feel that you are getting good sound quality (which would represent a decent frequency response) then I probably wouldn't do it. The special effects in movies require far more <30Hz capability, than most music does. And, a single PC13, in one-port plugged Extended mode, has far more <30Hz capability than a pair of SB13's.

Throw in the low-bass tactile advantages of a ported sub, which are also part of the movie special effects experience, and the fact that your use is 90% movies, and I just don't think you would be satisfied with the exchange. You would get more mid-bass with the dual sealed models, but I don't think the trade would be worth it for the low-bass SPL and TR you would lose.

If your use were 90% music, my answer would probably be different. You can compare the SPL differences on this page, although SPL numbers won't capture the low-bass tactile differences.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems?_k=vp30t4

Ported subs create stronger pressure waves (the physical movement of air particles, rather than sound waves moving through an air-filled medium) than sealed subs can, due to the air moving through the ports. For movies, that can make quite a difference. Personally, I would just enjoy what I have, and try to maximize its performance.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #31989 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 05:44 PM
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If anyone sees a review for the new Pro series, could you please post them? I got a PC2000 back in March, trying to decide if its worth the $250 quote from SVS to upgrade to the PC2000 pro. The app support alone seems pretty convenient though, as I find myself having to adjust the sub pretty often for different types of music, movies, etc.
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post #31990 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docethic View Post
Help with PC4000:

I just received a new PC4000 to replace my Seaton MFW Turbo to appease my wife. She likes the cylinder form factor a lot. I figured given the MFW compact enclosure, performance wise they would be close and that the SVS would behave well at its limits so I could push it hard to keep up. I've several SVS subs in the past so figured I knew what i was getting. Either my vaulted ceilings don't work with the upfiring port or I got a bad unit, cause the PC is an enormous drop in output and even more so in tactile energy. The 4000 sounded like it was bottoming out pushing it on music hard, marking a farting sound on full excursion and on low bass tracks just didn't do much in the room. The MFW behaves much better at max output and has much more everywhere from 20 hz up. The issue is I have to run the gain very high on the 4000, to get any tactile bass out of it, so on tv, voices sound awful, very heavy and bloated. My wife really likes the look and it does free up floor space but I can't in conscious pay twice the price for this much decreased output. Did I just get a bad unit or is this normal of the 4000 series? I figured a high excursion 13.5" with 1200watts would be even match for a mid excursion 15" with only 700 watts. The PC enclosure is bigger as well by about 10%.

Any thoughts on what could be off with the PC4000? I did check and the port configuration is at all ports open in the app.
You should contact svs customer support and have them trouble shoot your issues before doing anything else.
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post #31991 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by promtber View Post
Great info . I do like the PC 4000 just so expensive. It’s doable. Is dual PC2000 better than single PC4000? Maybe I can buy one and maybe later get another. But I do like the look of single to make a happy wife.
Hi,

From many previous experience, from buying all over again. Since the PC4000 is doable, I would go that way since it will superior to dual PC2000 below 20Hz as mention by Mike previously. This way, if happy with the results with one. No need to get two subs, and your wife will be happy. If you feel like you need more, then just add a second one when budget permit. While a little big bigger than dual PC2000, it will still be the same result from your wife. From having two subs in your room, but she will get use to them very fast. Also from previous experience and to sleep on, I like to say "buy once, cry once".


Darth

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post #31992 of 32361 Old 12-15-2019, 08:19 PM
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Hey guys, I currently own a pair a couple of AV123 MFW-15s and was wanting to upgrade to something with the same output as the pair but with a smaller footprint. Can anyone with any experience with the MFW15 tell me what SVS has to offer that will fit the bill?

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post #31993 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silentrecon487 View Post
If anyone sees a review for the new Pro series, could you please post them? I got a PC2000 back in March, trying to decide if its worth the $250 quote from SVS to upgrade to the PC2000 pro. The app support alone seems pretty convenient though, as I find myself having to adjust the sub pretty often for different types of music, movies, etc.
I would suggest that you contact SVS and inquire about the protection circuit built into the new amp. I had a PC2000 corner placed in my room and after calibration it was pretty flat down to 10 Hz with room gain. I now have a PC4000 in the same spot and after calibration it's flat to about 15 Hz. I don't know if that is because of an aggressive protection circuit built into the 4000 series amp or the overall design or both. The PC2000 has a 4 inch port in the rear down low and of course the PC4000 has the 3 on top.

If the new PC2000 amp has a protection circuit similar to the 4000 series, then personally I would not "upgrade" your existing PC2000, the app is no big deal once their calibrated. I never go into the app for my PC4000.
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post #31994 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 05:05 AM
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I am renovating my living room, dining room and kitchen and will be installing a 5.2.4 system. The dimensions are about 19x37x9.5. I want to make sure I get the right subs.


By way of brief background, I have a Martin Logan Dynamo 700 in my den (5.1 system) and I've been pretty happy with it, although the bass sometimes sounds boomy (especially during commercials). Aesthetics are important as this is going in a living room, not a dedicated home theater. Therefore, I figured I should stay with a sealed sub because they are substantially smaller. I would say 15% music, 15% movies, 70% TV.


I was originally thinking of getting dual SB 3000s because they seemed like a great value, but then I read a comparison between the SB 3000s and SB 4000s and realized that the SB 3000s might not be enough in my space. I called SVS to see what they recommended and the guy immediately recommended going ported. When I told him that the PB 4000 is too big, he recommended the PC 4000. I was looking at pictures of how they look in a room and I don't think I'd be happy.


I'm getting Revel f226Be towers and a c426Be center channel and I don't want 47" cylinders taking any attention away from those beautiful speakers. So now I'm leaning towards dual SB16-Ultras. They're relatively compact at only ~20x20x20.


Am I making the right decision? As I stated before, the living room is open to the kitchen. Yes, the PB16-Ultras would give much better earth-shaking bass for movies, but they would also shake my dishes and pots and pans. Plus, they would look huge in my room. Am I wrong to view dual SB16-Ultras as the best "compromise"?
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post #31995 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blSwagger View Post
I am renovating my living room, dining room and kitchen and will be installing a 5.2.4 system. The dimensions are about 19x37x9.5. I want to make sure I get the right subs.


By way of brief background, I have a Martin Logan Dynamo 700 in my den (5.1 system) and I've been pretty happy with it, although the bass sometimes sounds boomy (especially during commercials). Aesthetics are important as this is going in a living room, not a dedicated home theater. Therefore, I figured I should stay with a sealed sub because they are substantially smaller. I would say 15% music, 15% movies, 70% TV.


I was originally thinking of getting dual SB 3000s because they seemed like a great value, but then I read a comparison between the SB 3000s and SB 4000s and realized that the SB 3000s might not be enough in my space. I called SVS to see what they recommended and the guy immediately recommended going ported. When I told him that the PB 4000 is too big, he recommended the PC 4000. I was looking at pictures of how they look in a room and I don't think I'd be happy.


I'm getting Revel f226Be towers and a c426Be center channel and I don't want 47" cylinders taking any attention away from those beautiful speakers. So now I'm leaning towards dual SB16-Ultras. They're relatively compact at only ~20x20x20.


Am I making the right decision? As I stated before, the living room is open to the kitchen. Yes, the PB16-Ultras would give much better earth-shaking bass for movies, but they would also shake my dishes and pots and pans. Plus, they would look huge in my room. Am I wrong to view dual SB16-Ultras as the best "compromise"?
There is no right or wrong. A living room is often a place where compromises have to be made as long as you understand the compromises. The reason SVS suggested a ported sub is due to your room volume being huge (> 6000 cuft). It's hard to get impact from the very low bass frequencies in large spaces which is what can significantly add to movie enjoyment. In large spaces you need powerful ported subs to do that. Sealed subs can do it with room gain but that only applies to much smaller rooms. You would still get lots of high quality bass from dual SB16s but it will likely be limited below 30Hz or so. The PC-4000s are nice in that they take up little floor space but the design is not for everyone. I don't know your room layout but they don't necessary have to go upfront. I have dual PC-4000s in the rear of our living room and don't think they look too bad. See pic. Of course placement isn't all about aesthetics and some positions will work better than others.
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post #31996 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blSwagger View Post
I am renovating my living room, dining room and kitchen and will be installing a 5.2.4 system. The dimensions are about 19x37x9.5. I want to make sure I get the right subs.

By way of brief background, I have a Martin Logan Dynamo 700 in my den (5.1 system) and I've been pretty happy with it, although the bass sometimes sounds boomy (especially during commercials). Aesthetics are important as this is going in a living room, not a dedicated home theater. Therefore, I figured I should stay with a sealed sub because they are substantially smaller. I would say 15% music, 15% movies, 70% TV.

I was originally thinking of getting dual SB 3000s because they seemed like a great value, but then I read a comparison between the SB 3000s and SB 4000s and realized that the SB 3000s might not be enough in my space. I called SVS to see what they recommended and the guy immediately recommended going ported. When I told him that the PB 4000 is too big, he recommended the PC 4000. I was looking at pictures of how they look in a room and I don't think I'd be happy.

I'm getting Revel f226Be towers and a c426Be center channel and I don't want 47" cylinders taking any attention away from those beautiful speakers. So now I'm leaning towards dual SB16-Ultras. They're relatively compact at only ~20x20x20.

Am I making the right decision? As I stated before, the living room is open to the kitchen. Yes, the PB16-Ultras would give much better earth-shaking bass for movies, but they would also shake my dishes and pots and pans. Plus, they would look huge in my room. Am I wrong to view dual SB16-Ultras as the best "compromise"?

Hi,

I typically like to recommend ported subwoofers for movies, and especially for movies in large rooms. But, aesthetics are important to me too. FWIW, I think you would find that larger piano black ported subs would blend in very well, after just a short while, so I really don't believe you would find the PB4000's to be quite as noticeable as you think.

With that said, given the use you described, I think that dual SB16's would also be a very good choice. You already know that you will be giving-up some ULF volume, and some tactile response, for movies. But, in my experience, those are less important for most TV shows, and far less important for most music. So, I don't see the SB16's as a bad compromise at all. As a matter of fact, many people get perfectly satisfactory performance, for all listening purposes, from sealed subs. That is partly because our individual bass preferences vary. You just need to identify your own preferences, and proceed accordingly.

One of the nice things about the SVS free trial period is the ability to determine for ourselves how well a particular subwoofer model works in our rooms. I recommend listening critically to the SB16's, and pushing them to achieve the maximum low-bass you believe you will ever want. They should always have plenty of overall bass volume, so the only question will be whether you feel that you are missing anything from the standpoint of low-bass special effects in movies and some TV shows.

If you are not really missing anything, then you have made the right decision. If you feel that you are missing something, you can use the smaller form of the SB16 to determine whether the slightly larger cabinet of the PB4000, as viewed from the front, would be a problem for you. As noted in the first paragraph, if you do decide to move to the larger ported models at that point, I really don't think you will find the difference in size to be very noticeable after the first few days.

Good luck with whatever direction you choose!

Regards,
Mike
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Am I making the right decision? As I stated before, the living room is open to the kitchen. Yes, the PB16-Ultras would give much better earth-shaking bass for movies, but they would also shake my dishes and pots and pans. Plus, they would look huge in my room. Am I wrong to view dual SB16-Ultras as the best "compromise"?
I'm with the others, dual SB16's is not likely to be considered much of a compromise. Your situation really does suggest ported but if the decor won't allow for them than go with the best you can get. I wrote an eval of the SB16 a few years back so you can click this link for one mans opinion. Note that the website switched hosting platforms and all the pictures and graphs were stripped away when they did, but the text is still there.
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Hey guys, I currently own a pair a couple of AV123 MFW-15s and was wanting to upgrade to something with the same output as the pair but with a smaller footprint. Can anyone with any experience with the MFW15 tell me what SVS has to offer that will fit the bill?
What version of the MFW-15 do you have? There were several and each had different capabilities.

If it's the most recent variant it was pretty potent so the first thing that springs to mind is the PB-3000, maybe even the PB-4000. Neither of them will reduce the footprint though as both are pretty sizable. What about a cylinder sub, would that be too large?

 
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The reason SVS suggested a ported sub is due to your room volume being huge (> 6000 cuft). It's hard to get impact from the very low bass frequencies in large spaces which is what can significantly add to movie enjoyment. In large spaces you need powerful ported subs to do that. Sealed subs can do it with room gain but that only applies to much smaller rooms.
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I typically like to recommend ported subwoofers for movies, and especially for movies in large rooms. But, aesthetics are important to me too. FWIW, I think you would find that larger piano black ported subs would blend in very well, after just a short while, so I really don't believe you would find the PB4000's to be quite as noticeable as you think... I really don't think you will find the difference in size to be very noticeable after the first few days.
Thanks for your feedback. I am seriously considering dual PB-4000s, particularly because they're the same price, but produce better ULF for movies. Additionally, I plan on creating profiles on my processor to listen to music in 2.0 or 2.2, depending on the type of music I'm listening to. For tracks with deep, computerized bass, a ported sub might be better (Techno Dad, or whatever his name is, on YouTube said so).

The reason why I want to go all out on subs is because of what I experienced at one of the audio stores I visited. They have a JBL Synthesis theater with quad ported subs hidden behind a screen. I have never felt bass that way before and would love to get as close to that as possible. It was really amazing. Immersive sound makes you feel like you're in the action and bass plays a major role in that area. I think what may have pushed me away from ported subs is what the first audio store told me: that the sb-3000 would be much better than the pb-3000. The guy that came to my house said the pb-3000 is too big for my living room and it wouldn't sound nearly as good as the sb-3000. Then again, I didn't agree with any of the ceiling speakers he recommended. In fact, everyone who commented about his recommendation said he was wrong, so I'm thinking I should take his advice with a grain of salt. I can always start with the PB-4000 and if the size is okay, I can keep them, otherwise exchange them for SB-16u's.

I don't think the height or width of the pb-4000 would be an issue. The problem is that it sticks out an extra 7" compared to the SB16-u. The SB16-u would be nearly flush with the towers and AV cabinet, but the PB-4000 would stick out over half a foot (I've already ruled out PC-4000s). That shouldn't be a problem for the right subwoofer because it'll be close to the 25" deep pantry. The left subwoofer might be an issue sticking out because the sectional I plan on buying will be a few feet away (for guests in the living room, not really for watching TV) and I have to walk between the couch and subwoofer to get to the window. How far does the couch have to be from the ports?

I'm thinking the PB-4000s in piano gloss black would look pretty cool next to the f226Be towers in piano glass black. They have a front facing port, which would complement the SVS's pretty well.

One more question - is there a distinct difference in quality between the ported and sealed SVS subwoofers? I've watched most of the videos by Subwoofer 101 on YouTube and the guy said for him, sealed subs are fatiguing to his ears. The sealed sub in my den gives me ear fatigue sometimes, but that could just be due to poor calibration, too close to the corner, and it's down firing into a concrete slab. I loved the bass in the JBL Synthesis theater, but that's the only decent ported sub I've listened to (that I'm aware of).

I think my dilemma boils down to the following - I want the deep bass from a ported sub, but the form factor of a sealed sub. So long as I can live with the extra 7" depth of the PB-4000 vs. the SB16-u, is that definitely the way to go? Any additional thoughts?
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Yes, and set the correct port configuration
^This. :-)

Audyssey will see the deeper extension and also a slightly different sensitivity from the subwoofer - and it will build a new set of equalization filters and calibration level.

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If i have a denon x4500 that has 2 sub out, do i connect both of that to the 2 rca of my PC13 ultra? Right now im only connecting 1sub out using 1rca then using a splitter near the subs to connect the rca to the 2 rca input of the subs.
One RCA cable from the Denon sub pre-out to the LFE input on the subwoofer is fine. There is no need to use a Y splitter at either device.

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post #32002 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 02:17 PM
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What would sound better pb12 or sb3000? I m in a 20x20 room, mostly movies and tv. Currently have the PB12 but its huge and doesn't match my SVS Ultra Piano Finish. Would the sb3000 sound better for the upgrade in price or just keep it as is?
I suspect you would find the SB-3000 to be an improvement in subjective sound quality and certainly a big jump in mid/upper bass dynamic output, but the PB12-NSD will still have the edge in the 20-30 Hz bandwidth.

The 'better' subwoofer isn't always the one with the highest output at the deepest frequencies. If the smaller subwoofer isn't being driven to its dynamic limits down deep at the preferred playback level, there really isn't any downside. And lifestyle considerations like size, footprint, visual impact, decor integration, etc. typically factor strongly in the decision-making process for a living room/family room.

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post #32003 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 02:24 PM
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So to keep my topic going. I have the PB12 and it sounds really good just large and doesn’t match my Ultra towers in piano. What would you pick for a good movie / music sub for a 20x20 room normal ceiling heights. I currently have a Denon 4500.

1 PC2000
2 PC4000
3 SB3000
4 SB4000
5 Just keep what I have
Aside from the finish preference, do you have any overall size/footprint preference for the subwoofer?

Also, how loud do you listen to action/sci-fi Blu-ray movies on the 4500? What percentage of the listening is music?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by promtber View Post
So to keep my topic going. I have the PB12 and it sounds really good just large and doesn&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t match my Ultra towers in piano. What would you pick for a good movie / music sub for a 20x20 room normal ceiling heights. I currently have a Denon 4500.

1 PC2000
2 PC4000
3 SB3000
4 SB4000
5 Just keep what I have
Aside from the finish preference, do you have any overall size/footprint preference for the subwoofer?

Also, how loud do you listen to action/sci-fi Blu-ray movies on the 4500? What percentage of the listening is music?
Smaller the better but I do listen to my movies somewhat loud. Music around 10%.
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post #32005 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
You should contact svs customer support and have them trouble shoot your issues before doing anything else.
Sounds like something is wrong with the subwoofer or it's a set-up issue. We'll help you resolve it either way - just reach out to our CS team - click the Support widget on the website to email, chat or call.

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post #32006 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 02:35 PM
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Smaller the better but I do listen to my movies somewhat loud. Music around 10%.
What is the 4500 MV setting typically and how hot are you running the subwoofer channel over the calibration level match?

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Originally Posted by promtber View Post
Smaller the better but I do listen to my movies somewhat loud. Music around 10%.
What is the 4500 MV setting typically and how hot are you running the subwoofer channel over the calibration level match?
I wish I knew. I actually don’t have the 4500 yet but it’s coming this week.
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post #32008 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 02:40 PM
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I am renovating my living room, dining room and kitchen and will be installing a 5.2.4 system. The dimensions are about 19x37x9.5. I want to make sure I get the right subs.


By way of brief background, I have a Martin Logan Dynamo 700 in my den (5.1 system) and I've been pretty happy with it, although the bass sometimes sounds boomy (especially during commercials). Aesthetics are important as this is going in a living room, not a dedicated home theater. Therefore, I figured I should stay with a sealed sub because they are substantially smaller. I would say 15% music, 15% movies, 70% TV.


I was originally thinking of getting dual SB 3000s because they seemed like a great value, but then I read a comparison between the SB 3000s and SB 4000s and realized that the SB 3000s might not be enough in my space. I called SVS to see what they recommended and the guy immediately recommended going ported. When I told him that the PB 4000 is too big, he recommended the PC 4000. I was looking at pictures of how they look in a room and I don't think I'd be happy.


I'm getting Revel f226Be towers and a c426Be center channel and I don't want 47" cylinders taking any attention away from those beautiful speakers. So now I'm leaning towards dual SB16-Ultras. They're relatively compact at only ~20x20x20.


Am I making the right decision? As I stated before, the living room is open to the kitchen. Yes, the PB16-Ultras would give much better earth-shaking bass for movies, but they would also shake my dishes and pots and pans. Plus, they would look huge in my room. Am I wrong to view dual SB16-Ultras as the best "compromise"?
While it's a large room, if you are sitting a typical distance from the front stage and the subwoofers, I would be shocked if you aren't very happy with a pair of SB-4000s. In a living/family room lifestyle considerations like size, weight, footprint, visual impact and decor integration are as important (if not more so) than overall subwoofer performance. And the playback level in multi-media systems like this tends to be moderate to moderately loud (typically -20 or -15 reference) and is not going to drive a pair of SB-4000s into any obvious compression.

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post #32009 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 02:42 PM
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Thanks for your feedback. I am seriously considering dual PB-4000s, particularly because they're the same price, but produce better ULF for movies. Additionally, I plan on creating profiles on my processor to listen to music in 2.0 or 2.2, depending on the type of music I'm listening to. For tracks with deep, computerized bass, a ported sub might be better (Techno Dad, or whatever his name is, on YouTube said so).

The reason why I want to go all out on subs is because of what I experienced at one of the audio stores I visited. They have a JBL Synthesis theater with quad ported subs hidden behind a screen. I have never felt bass that way before and would love to get as close to that as possible. It was really amazing. Immersive sound makes you feel like you're in the action and bass plays a major role in that area. I think what may have pushed me away from ported subs is what the first audio store told me: that the sb-3000 would be much better than the pb-3000. The guy that came to my house said the pb-3000 is too big for my living room and it wouldn't sound nearly as good as the sb-3000. Then again, I didn't agree with any of the ceiling speakers he recommended. In fact, everyone who commented about his recommendation said he was wrong, so I'm thinking I should take his advice with a grain of salt. I can always start with the PB-4000 and if the size is okay, I can keep them, otherwise exchange them for SB-16u's.

I don't think the height or width of the pb-4000 would be an issue. The problem is that it sticks out an extra 7" compared to the SB16-u. The SB16-u would be nearly flush with the towers and AV cabinet, but the PB-4000 would stick out over half a foot (I've already ruled out PC-4000s). That shouldn't be a problem for the right subwoofer because it'll be close to the 25" deep pantry. The left subwoofer might be an issue sticking out because the sectional I plan on buying will be a few feet away (for guests in the living room, not really for watching TV) and I have to walk between the couch and subwoofer to get to the window. How far does the couch have to be from the ports?

I'm thinking the PB-4000s in piano gloss black would look pretty cool next to the f226Be towers in piano glass black. They have a front facing port, which would complement the SVS's pretty well.

One more question - is there a distinct difference in quality between the ported and sealed SVS subwoofers? I've watched most of the videos by Subwoofer 101 on YouTube and the guy said for him, sealed subs are fatiguing to his ears. The sealed sub in my den gives me ear fatigue sometimes, but that could just be due to poor calibration, too close to the corner, and it's down firing into a concrete slab. I loved the bass in the JBL Synthesis theater, but that's the only decent ported sub I've listened to (that I'm aware of).

I think my dilemma boils down to the following - I want the deep bass from a ported sub, but the form factor of a sealed sub. So long as I can live with the extra 7" depth of the PB-4000 vs. the SB16-u, is that definitely the way to go? Any additional thoughts?

You are very welcome! It sounds as if you got some bad advice earlier, but I agree with your current thought process. The PB4000's really are better suited to your room and your goals. Incidentally, the phrase I bolded represents a pretty common dilemma. Unfortunately, lower frequencies, at louder volume levels, require larger cabinets. I'm sure you have heard the popular phrase: There is no replacement for displacement. The displacement referred to, in this context, is the displacement of air within a cabinet. Cubic volume and porting, both of which take space, are very important factors in achieving the kind of deep bass you are looking for.

With respect to whether sealed subwoofers sound better or worse for particular kinds of listening material, I believe that is an entirely subjective question. The PB4000 has both a Sealed mode and an Extended mode, in addition to the Standard 20Hz ported mode. The 16Hz Extended mode gives you the most <20Hz SPL and TR (tactile response). You can try both sealed and ported settings in your room and decide for yourself whether you would be sacrificing any audio quality in pursuing lower frequencies at louder volume levels. (Don't forget to reconfigure the subs' DSP to Sealed mode and rerun any automated room correction if you decide to test that mode.)

I will say that the ULF tactile sensations produced by ported subs tend to be much more overt than that produced by sealed subs. Running sealed subs at very high volume levels, in pursuit of that same kind of ULF TR, may produce more of a pressurization effect than would normally occur with ported subs. Ported subs would already be able to produce more deep bass TR at lower volume levels, and consequently might never cause that pressurization effect. Perhaps that is what some people experience, but that is just speculation on my part.

As far as whether a couch would interfere with the proper operation of a PB4000, you will be fine. It is typically recommended that we keep ports about one port diameter away from solid objects such as walls. Even keeping the front of your sub just a couple of inches from a sofa would work. The grille sticks out beyond the ports anyway to allow them to breathe. If anything, people sitting on the end of that couch might get to feel some extra port wind, when you really wind the subs up.

In case you were worrying about the bass frequencies themselves being affected by a couch, in close proximity to the sub, they will go through the couch as if isn't even there. Many people, including myself, deliberately position subs in the very nearfield for maximum effect. For instance, one of my subs is just 22" behind my recliner. That's actually a good thing, in my opinion.

Regards,
Mike

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post #32010 of 32361 Old 12-16-2019, 02:43 PM
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I wish I knew. I actually don’t have the 4500 yet but it’s coming this week.
SB-4000 is smaller overall, gloss, has the edge in SQ especially on music and has a lot more dynamic output everywhere except 20-30 Hz. It might be the better overall choice for you - and subjectively I think you would find it an upgrade on virtually all source material. If you purchase direct take advantage of our 45-day audition period and free shipping both ways.
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