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post #32221 of 32276 Old 01-08-2020, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SaskCanesFan View Post
Thanks Ed! I Have to say SVS support was extremely quick responding to me this morning and saying the same thing about getting an amp to me right away, and I believe they would have done exactly that. Unfortunately I'm in Canada so told to reach out to electronicsforless first about replacement amp, and their customer service has been non existent to this point in responding to either my email or RMA request from this morning. Being 5PM ET now I'm guessing I won't hear from them until tomorrow at the earliest. Do you know if they ship out replacement amps as well or are they likely to want me to send the sub back?
Let's let the dealer react to your request first. If they have an amp in stock, they can send it on. If they don't, we'll work with the dealer and you directly to make it happen. Either way we'll take care of you.

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post #32222 of 32276 Old 01-09-2020, 08:00 AM
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Well this is a bit embarrassing but I took the amp off a second time last night to test and after putting it back on I've got power like I'm supposed to. Not sure exactly what happened, nothing seemed loose but maybe one of the wires wasn't seated quite properly in the connector, regardless it seems to be working now and I obviously should have played more with it the first night that what I did.

I want to give full credit to SVS as their service- both from their online support and Ed himself - were exactly as advertised. If not for my own time constraints or if I had literally any idea what I was doing, I'm pretty sure this would have been sorted in less than 2 hours instead of 2 days. Really excited to try this thing out now, may need to fake a cough to get out of work!
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post #32223 of 32276 Old 01-09-2020, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SaskCanesFan View Post
Well this is a bit embarrassing but I took the amp off a second time last night to test and after putting it back on I've got power like I'm supposed to. Not sure exactly what happened, nothing seemed loose but maybe one of the wires wasn't seated quite properly in the connector, regardless it seems to be working now and I obviously should have played more with it the first night that what I did.

I want to give full credit to SVS as their service- both from their online support and Ed himself - were exactly as advertised. If not for my own time constraints or if I had literally any idea what I was doing, I'm pretty sure this would have been sorted in less than 2 hours instead of 2 days. Really excited to try this thing out now, may need to fake a cough to get out of work!
I agree. Their service is top notch. I got my sub amp replaced - took 2 days. They had me run a test and once it was confirmed that it was my amp vs the driver, I got the amp in 2 days and I shipped out my old amp the following day.

This is the best service I have ever experienced. They were even very patient when I originally bought the SB16 but changed my mind the next day to get PB16. The SB16 was in transit and all that mess but it was handled with professionalism on their end and I’m an extremely happy customer. This PB16 is awesome.
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post #32224 of 32276 Old 01-09-2020, 11:36 AM
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PB-2000 & PB-2000 Pro Integration (4 Sub CFG)

Hello Ed
I currently have a 4 sub config, Front Subs are a pair recently purchased PB-2000s, Rear Subs are vintage Paradigm Ported 12" Subs one a PW2200 & the other PS1200.

I have used a Minidap 2x4, REW and Multi-Sub Optimizer to optimize the subs. Results are very good despite having different brand of subs in my dedicated 22'(L) x 12'(w) x 7.5(H) sealed room. Very even response on my 3 seat sofa. I primarily watch movies and listen at -20db from reference.

My question is if I were to replace the Paradigm Subs with a pair of the newer PB-2000s Pros would they integrate well with the front PB-2000s?

Thanks
Tim

Last edited by WingmanHD; 01-09-2020 at 11:41 AM.
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post #32225 of 32276 Old 01-10-2020, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by WingmanHD View Post
Hello Ed
I currently have a 4 sub config, Front Subs are a pair recently purchased PB-2000s, Rear Subs are vintage Paradigm Ported 12" Subs one a PW2200 & the other PS1200.

I have used a Minidap 2x4, REW and Multi-Sub Optimizer to optimize the subs. Results are very good despite having different brand of subs in my dedicated 22'(L) x 12'(w) x 7.5(H) sealed room. Very even response on my 3 seat sofa. I primarily watch movies and listen at -20db from reference.

My question is if I were to replace the Paradigm Subs with a pair of the newer PB-2000s Pros would they integrate well with the front PB-2000s?

Thanks
Tim
The PB-2000 Pro and the PB-2000 do have different phase responses - but they are ostensibly much closer to parity that the two different Paradigm subs you are using now. So if anything I would expect even better results.

You'll have to start from scratch again of course with REW, MSO, miniDSP, etc.

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post #32226 of 32276 Old 01-11-2020, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
The PB-2000 Pro and the PB-2000 do have different phase responses - but they are ostensibly much closer to parity that the two different Paradigm subs you are using now. So if anything I would expect even better results.

You'll have to start from scratch again of course with REW, MSO, miniDSP, etc.
Thanks Ed
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post #32227 of 32276 Old 01-13-2020, 07:38 PM
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Anyone knows how much delay does the DSP on the PB12-NSD add ? I do not have the means to measure this via Audyssey or Rew.
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post #32228 of 32276 Old 01-14-2020, 03:35 AM
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I found after getting my sb-4000 that I was running it too hot and reduces it a lot. I am going to get a second one at tax time which will allow me to have a greater overall output while lower the volume on the sub a bit more than what I have now ( I came from 2 subs so this is what I'm used to ).

But I keep coming back to the long explosion scene at the end of ready player one that makes the sub struggle like nothing else. Sub trim ia 0 and sub level is 0 in the receiver and I lowered the volume of the sub to -18 to make a scene in alita battle angel totally flawless which was the only scene that showed strain....until ready player one.

I have to lower the sub to -25 in order to get rid of the strain at -12 on the reciever, if I had 2 subs right now that wouldn't be a problem as overall output would be good for music too.

But in order to avoid those sub killer moments that I'm assuming something like edge of tomorrow would also cause ( I haven't listened to it in years and don't own it currently to test ), then -25 makes the sub extremely weak for music and I don't want to always have the sub dialed back just for one scene in one movie but I would like to have the sub at a safe setting for all circumstances at all times, at least for the movie setting.


At 0dB trim, 0dB sub level and the receiver and -25 on the sub to account for the worst possible scenario in a movie at my -12dB receiver setting is that normal? Do sealed subs just strain badly in potential -20hz content or something because mad max, blade runner...anything else can be ran much higher to ear bleed levels with no problems.

Can one scene bring a sub to it's knees?

As I said once I have 2 subs -25 won't be a compromise.

Should I just make a seperate setting for movies with ridiculous bass or should I keep that as the bass movie setting just in case?
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post #32229 of 32276 Old 01-14-2020, 08:33 AM
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If the difference in volume between music and movies is -12 or so which is what you like then yea I think just changing the volume is your only option.

If it was a small amount you could probably handle it a different way.

That does seem like a lot though, if I had to guess you probably need another sub for more output and smoother frequency response.

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post #32230 of 32276 Old 01-14-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post

Should I just make a seperate setting for movies with ridiculous bass or should I keep that as the bass movie setting just in case?
Are you still within your first year of ownership? If so, have you considered trading up to a pb-4000?

I am still torn between sb-16 Ultras for their smaller footprint or pb-4000s for their greater tactile response. I don't know which I'd regret more, getting a sub-woofer that is too big or doesn't give me the TR I want.

Question: would I hear dishes/glasses/etc. rattle in the kitchen during high TR scenes? My living room is open to the kitchen (they share the 40' wall from front to back of my house).
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post #32231 of 32276 Old 01-14-2020, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by blSwagger View Post
Are you still within your first year of ownership? If so, have you considered trading up to a pb-4000?

I am still torn between sb-16 Ultras for their smaller footprint or pb-4000s for their greater tactile response. I don't know which I'd regret more, getting a sub-woofer that is too big or doesn't give me the TR I want.

Question: would I hear dishes/glasses/etc. rattle in the kitchen during high TR scenes? My living room is open to the kitchen (they share the 40' wall from front to back of my house).
In an open room I think you will be fine, in a closed room which I have yea things can rattle a bit but with the door open the pressure is much less so I just don't think it will an issue.

Cosmetically I like the SB-16 better but after running my PB-4000 in sealed vs standard I wouldn't go back to sealed.
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post #32232 of 32276 Old 01-14-2020, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post
I found after getting my sb-4000 that I was running it too hot and reduces it a lot. I am going to get a second one at tax time which will allow me to have a greater overall output while lower the volume on the sub a bit more than what I have now ( I came from 2 subs so this is what I'm used to ).

But I keep coming back to the long explosion scene at the end of ready player one that makes the sub struggle like nothing else. Sub trim ia 0 and sub level is 0 in the receiver and I lowered the volume of the sub to -18 to make a scene in alita battle angel totally flawless which was the only scene that showed strain....until ready player one.

I have to lower the sub to -25 in order to get rid of the strain at -12 on the reciever, if I had 2 subs right now that wouldn't be a problem as overall output would be good for music too.

But in order to avoid those sub killer moments that I'm assuming something like edge of tomorrow would also cause ( I haven't listened to it in years and don't own it currently to test ), then -25 makes the sub extremely weak for music and I don't want to always have the sub dialed back just for one scene in one movie but I would like to have the sub at a safe setting for all circumstances at all times, at least for the movie setting.


At 0dB trim, 0dB sub level and the receiver and -25 on the sub to account for the worst possible scenario in a movie at my -12dB receiver setting is that normal? Do sealed subs just strain badly in potential -20hz content or something because mad max, blade runner...anything else can be ran much higher to ear bleed levels with no problems.

Can one scene bring a sub to it's knees?

As I said once I have 2 subs -25 won't be a compromise.

Should I just make a seperate setting for movies with ridiculous bass or should I keep that as the bass movie setting just in case?
Try increasing the gain on your subwoofer amp pre calibration such that you get a more negative trim post room correction on the AVR. You may be clipping at the AVR having the AVR sub trim at 0. Rule of thumb around here is keep your sub trims around -5 so as not to clip at the AVR. That amp on the SB4000 has a ton of power, make use of it and lesson the AVR burden.

If you take a look here at the bass chart for RP1 you should be able to figure out based on the heatmap what frequency may be giving you problems. You could then use either room compensation or the PEQ on your sub app to EQ that scene such that you can maintain volume for most material and flip the setting on or off for a particular scene:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56720998

EDIT (try using a room gain comp setting on your SVS app of 25hz with a 12db slope and see if that helps, looks like theres some really hot 15-20hz near the scene you mention). But also for sure make sure your AVR trims are -5 or lower.
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post #32233 of 32276 Old 01-14-2020, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post
I found after getting my sb-4000 that I was running it too hot and reduces it a lot. I am going to get a second one at tax time which will allow me to have a greater overall output while lower the volume on the sub a bit more than what I have now ( I came from 2 subs so this is what I'm used to ).

But I keep coming back to the long explosion scene at the end of ready player one that makes the sub struggle like nothing else. Sub trim ia 0 and sub level is 0 in the receiver and I lowered the volume of the sub to -18 to make a scene in alita battle angel totally flawless which was the only scene that showed strain....until ready player one.

I have to lower the sub to -25 in order to get rid of the strain at -12 on the reciever, if I had 2 subs right now that wouldn't be a problem as overall output would be good for music too.

But in order to avoid those sub killer moments that I'm assuming something like edge of tomorrow would also cause ( I haven't listened to it in years and don't own it currently to test ), then -25 makes the sub extremely weak for music and I don't want to always have the sub dialed back just for one scene in one movie but I would like to have the sub at a safe setting for all circumstances at all times, at least for the movie setting.


At 0dB trim, 0dB sub level and the receiver and -25 on the sub to account for the worst possible scenario in a movie at my -12dB receiver setting is that normal? Do sealed subs just strain badly in potential -20hz content or something because mad max, blade runner...anything else can be ran much higher to ear bleed levels with no problems.

Can one scene bring a sub to it's knees?

As I said once I have 2 subs -25 won't be a compromise.

Should I just make a seperate setting for movies with ridiculous bass or should I keep that as the bass movie setting just in case?

Hi,

I am a little bit confused by some things you are saying. You mentioned being at 0 for your sub trim and at 0 for your sub level in your AVR. Are those two separate settings? As a general rule, I think you will be getting better results if you keep your sub's AVR trim slightly in negative numbers. Your sub may be clipping a little at the 0 trim setting.

I'm also not sure that your SB4000 can achieve its full volume levels at a subwoofer gain setting of -25. I know that all of the newer model subwoofers are designed to be able to produce max volumes, with much lower sub gain settings, than some of the older model subs could. But, -25 sounds a little too low to me. Unless Ed says otherwise, I probably wouldn't go below about -20.

So, I might try to re-balance my settings to about -3 or -5 for the AVR trim level and -20 for the subwoofer gain level. That would give you about the same net volume, or just a little more than you have now. But, it might also allow your subwoofer to play with less distortion or compression than you have now, for movies with very challenging low-frequency content.

Addressing what I see as a more fundamental problem, having to dial a single sealed subwoofer back to even -20 on the gain level doesn't allow you to have much subwoofer volume. If you add another SB4000, that will only contribute another 6dB at the lowest frequencies.

If you want to be able to play low-frequencies with authority, you might want to consider pivoting to a ported subwoofer. The PB4000 (or PC4000) would have a great deal more low-frequency SPL (especially <30Hz) than the SB4000 does. Later you might end-up still adding a second sub.

But, we all really need to start with the right single sub to begin with, and then add a second one from there. It looks to me as if your SB4000 may just be inherently inadequate for the combination of room and use for which you are employing it. I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike
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post #32234 of 32276 Old 01-14-2020, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
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Anyone knows how much delay does the DSP on the PB12-NSD add ? I do not have the means to measure this via Audyssey or Rew.
A reasonably accurate approximation with Audyssey would be the difference between the reported sub distance and the actual physical sub distance.

It's not more than a few milliseconds for that particular amp platform.

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post #32235 of 32276 Old 01-14-2020, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by microwiz View Post
If the difference in volume between music and movies is -12 or so which is what you like then yea I think just changing the volume is your only option.

If it was a small amount you could probably handle it a different way.

That does seem like a lot though, if I had to guess you probably need another sub for more output and smoother frequency response.
Yep definitely getting a second. I had 2 15" sealed subs before this single sub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post

Should I just make a seperate setting for movies with ridiculous bass or should I keep that as the bass movie setting just in case?
Are you still within your first year of ownership? If so, have you considered trading up to a pb-4000?

I am still torn between sb-16 Ultras for their smaller footprint or pb-4000s for their greater tactile response. I don't know which I'd regret more, getting a sub-woofer that is too big or doesn't give me the TR I want.

Question: would I hear dishes/glasses/etc. rattle in the kitchen during high TR scenes? My living room is open to the kitchen (they share the 40' wall from front to back of my house).
Can't get a pb-4000, room ia small and rattling would be terrible and the sound of sealed subs is what I like. I think a massive ported sub would sound incredibly boomy to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Fowler View Post

Try increasing the gain on your subwoofer amp pre calibration such that you get a more negative trim post room correction on the AVR. You may be clipping at the AVR having the AVR sub trim at 0. Rule of thumb around here is keep your sub trims around -5 so as not to clip at the AVR. That amp on the SB4000 has a ton of power, make use of it and lesson the AVR burden.

If you take a look here at the bass chart for RP1 you should be able to figure out based on the heatmap what frequency may be giving you problems. You could then use either room compensation or the PEQ on your sub app to EQ that scene such that you can maintain volume for most material and flip the setting on or off for a particular scene:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56720998

EDIT (try using a room gain comp setting on your SVS app of 25hz with a 12db slope and see if that helps, looks like theres some really hot 15-20hz near the scene you mention). But also for sure make sure your AVR trims are -5 or lower.
Thanks I will raise the sub level a bit and lpwer the sub level in the avr, but I have a yamaha receiver and as part if the calibration it doesn't use the sub trim setting isn't even used. I believe that in a yamaha that setting is kind of a dynamic sub deq thing and that sub level is what I would have to set. When I set the sub to -20 the avr came back recommending -4 in calibration which would be the equivalent of 0dB sub level in the avr and -24 on the sub which is only 1dB difference than the worst case scenario setting I was going to set. But from what I've read people say having a negative sub level/trim is better for the sub.

So should I set the receiver to something like -6dB and set the sub to -18 or -19 and see if that does anythinf?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post


Hi,

I am a little bit confused by some things you are saying. You mentioned being at 0 for your sub trim and at 0 for your sub level in your AVR. Are those two separate settings? As a general rule, I think you will be getting better results if you keep your sub's AVR trim slightly in negative numbers. Your sub may be clipping a little at the 0 trim setting.

I'm also not sure that your SB4000 can achieve its full volume levels at a subwoofer gain setting of -25. I know that all of the newer model subwoofers are designed to be able to produce max volumes, with much lower sub gain settings, than some of the older model subs could. But, -25 sounds a little too low to me. Unless Ed says otherwise, I probably wouldn't go below about -20.

So, I might try to re-balance my settings to about -3 or -5 for the AVR trim level and -20 for the subwoofer gain level. That would give you about the same net volume, or just a little more than you have now. But, it might also allow your subwoofer to play with less distortion or compression than you have now, for movies with very challenging low-frequency content.

Addressing what I see as a more fundamental problem, having to dial a single sealed subwoofer back to even -20 on the gain level doesn't allow you to have much subwoofer volume. If you add another SB4000, that will only contribute another 6dB at the lowest frequencies.

If you want to be able to play low-frequencies with authority, you might want to consider pivoting to a ported subwoofer. The PB4000 (or PC4000) would have a great deal more low-frequency SPL (especially <30Hz) than the SB4000 does. Later you might end-up still adding a second sub.

But, we all really need to start with the right single sub to begin with, and then add a second one from there. It looks to me as if your SB4000 may just be inherently inadequate for the combination of room and use for which you are employing it. I hope this helps! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Regards,
Mike
Thanks mike. The sub trim and sub level are 2 seperate settings in the receiver. Sub level is just the channel dB adjustment same as all channels but the trim on a yamaha is some kind of dynamic deq thing and not just an additional volume trim like other brands I think so I will change the level but leave the trim and see what happens.
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post #32236 of 32276 Old 01-15-2020, 12:25 AM
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Stupid question but how do you turn this thing on and off without reaching all the way to the back for the switch? I can't believe they didn't include a simple power button on the remote. I know you can connect a trigger wire to it, but can't I just turn it on/off independently somehow?

Also what's the difference between standby=auto/on/off in app settings?

There is an app setting for turning the display off after 10s but doesn't look like it's working as expected.
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post #32237 of 32276 Old 01-15-2020, 12:47 AM
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Thanks for all the tips. I am way happier with my sb-4000 now and really looking forward to getting my second one. I was a bit depressed about selling my 2 subs to buy this ine and then running into trouble.

I set the sub to -6dB in the receiver and was able to tirn the sub from -25 to -12 and still not run into the kind of distortion if that's what you could call it that I had before.

At -22 when I ran the test last it recommend that I set the receiver to -4. But at -12 it is saying to set it to -10 on the receiver which is as low as it goes and so I ran the test again at -15 gain on the sub and it said to set it to -7.5 on the receiver.

I really feel that the volume on the sub is the same at -12 with -6 on the receiver as it was with -25 with 0dB on the receiver but maybe without the distortion it just sounds different.

I think the fact that according to those tests -12db is 0.5db higher than when it would start to recommend increasing the volume on the sub means I am at the perfect point now.

Will have to test more at some point but kids are asleep now.

Will listen to some music with a beat but quietly because before at -25 to beat the distorted LFE in that scene it made muaic weak. I hope now I can have one setting for everything.

Is there any way to do the maths on the end volume. I know it's not just like plus and minus equals with volume right?

I want to know what the volume of the sub is compared with before because it's hard to tell with the distortion gone. Because in theory it is 7dB louder than before but I fell like it might be a few dB quieter, I just didn't want to push my luck.

0 trim -25 sub is -25 but it the receiver-6 and the sub is -12 I don't think it's as simple as -18 total.

Does
I can't believe they sell top of the line receivers that clip the $#!+ out of the signal at 0db sub level/trim.

Last edited by dchalfont; 01-15-2020 at 01:04 AM.
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post #32238 of 32276 Old 01-15-2020, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by serg472 View Post
Stupid question but how do you turn this thing on and off without reaching all the way to the back for the switch? I can't believe they didn't include a simple power button on the remote. I know you can connect a trigger wire to it, but can't I just turn it on/off independently somehow?

Also what's the difference between standby=auto/on/off in app settings?

There is an app setting for turning the display off after 10s but doesn't look like it's working as expected.


Lol when I had my sb3000’s I was wondering the same thing..... to this day my conclusion so far is the auto function is broken and does not turn on, even if using a 1RCA to 2RCA y cable, utilizing all the voltage gain from both left and right RCA’s on the sub plate amplifier on the sb3000.

The trigger solution does work flawlessly but the downside at least for my case was any 1/8th mono ts cable I used that was longer than 3 feet introduced a faint but annoying hum. I needed 6 feet in length and yeah that didn’t work out. I just ended up leaving it in auto and when I wanted to play music or something I would turn on Bluetooth on my iPhone, open up the svs app, switch it from “auto” to “ON” and then reopen the settings page on my iPhone’s iOS and turn off the Bluetooth again completely, as I personally believe having it on while streaming via airplay 2 does slightly compress and/or compromise the sound quality coming from my iPhone (versus just swiping down to the control panel menu and just disabling Bluetooth from actively attempting to pair to a device, but still technically leaving Bluetooth on).


If you ever find a simple on off please do post as I would like to know even though I don’t have my sb3000’s snymore lol. Cheers.

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post #32239 of 32276 Old 01-15-2020, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post
Thanks for all the tips. I am way happier with my sb-4000 now and really looking forward to getting my second one. I was a bit depressed about selling my 2 subs to buy this ine and then running into trouble.

I set the sub to -6dB in the receiver and was able to tirn the sub from -25 to -12 and still not run into the kind of distortion if that's what you could call it that I had before.

At -22 when I ran the test last it recommend that I set the receiver to -4. But at -12 it is saying to set it to -10 on the receiver which is as low as it goes and so I ran the test again at -15 gain on the sub and it said to set it to -7.5 on the receiver.

I really feel that the volume on the sub is the same at -12 with -6 on the receiver as it was with -25 with 0dB on the receiver but maybe without the distortion it just sounds different.

I think the fact that according to those tests -12db is 0.5db higher than when it would start to recommend increasing the volume on the sub means I am at the perfect point now.

Will have to test more at some point but kids are asleep now.

Will listen to some music with a beat but quietly because before at -25 to beat the distorted LFE in that scene it made muaic weak. I hope now I can have one setting for everything.

Is there any way to do the maths on the end volume. I know it's not just like plus and minus equals with volume right?

I want to know what the volume of the sub is compared with before because it's hard to tell with the distortion gone. Because in theory it is 7dB louder than before but I fell like it might be a few dB quieter, I just didn't want to push my luck.

0 trim -25 sub is -25 but it the receiver-6 and the sub is -12 I don't think it's as simple as -18 total.

Does
I can't believe they sell top of the line receivers that clip the $#!+ out of the signal at 0db sub level/trim.
The overriding theme here needs to be the subwoofer calibration level, relative to that of the speaker channels.

Discussing the subwoofer volume (gain) setting, the AVR sub channel level, or even the sub volume and the sub channel level - really doesn't tell us the actual calibration level of the subwoofer., relative to that of the speaker channels.

The level matching of all channels (including the subwoofer) is accomplished during auto-set-up. And even then - if the subwoofer gain is set too high - sometimes the AV processor won't be able to level match the subwoofer without running out of trim. Some AV processors give you a warning about this - most do not. The only potential clue is the AVR sub channel level is bottomed out at the minimum value after set-up is run.

If you have a real SPL meter with C/Slow (like a Galaxy CM-130) - it can be used as a sanity check for level matching all channels, including the subwoofer. The C-weighted filter will typically read 2-3 dB LOW on the rumble tone - so account for that when level matching.

Regardless, if the subwoofer is level matched to the speaker channels (via auto-set-up or an SPL meter), the chances of it overloading on any particular scene (like the RP1 referenced above) is greatly reduced.

It's very possible (likely even) that a 0 dB subwoofer volume and a 0 dB AVR sub channel level with an SB-4000 will result in the subwoofer being 10-20 dB too hot - and is just ends-up being a compressed droning mess with no dynamic range. The quiet bass is way too loud - and the loudest bass won't get any louder than the DSP limiter/compressor allows.

The best advice I can offer here is to re-run auto-set-up, making sure the post-calibration AVR subwoofer channel level isn't bottomed out at the minimum value. If that occurs - lower the subwoofer volume/gain and re-run set-up until you get something other than the minimum value. At that point, the combination of the subwoofer volume/gain and the post-calibration subwoofer channel level accurately defines the true level match for the subwoofer channel.

Any upward deviations from that baseline combination is - by definition - running the subwoofer channel 'hot'. How hot is a matter of subjective preference which seems chronically up for debate. But suffice it to say - adding gain over the baseline calibration level chews up dynamic headroom which would otherwise be available for the subwoofer to play demanding peaks without running into compression.

To the extent personal preference for 'hotness' and the overall system playback level is inconsistent with the maximum uncompressed dynamic output limits of the subwoofer - the typical recommendation is to add another subwoofer or upgrade to a more powerful subwoofer - with the end goal being uncompressed (or minimally compressed) playback of the subwoofer channel.
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post #32240 of 32276 Old 01-15-2020, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post
Thanks for all the tips. I am way happier with my sb-4000 now and really looking forward to getting my second one. I was a bit depressed about selling my 2 subs to buy this ine and then running into trouble.

I set the sub to -6dB in the receiver and was able to tirn the sub from -25 to -12 and still not run into the kind of distortion if that's what you could call it that I had before.

At -22 when I ran the test last it recommend that I set the receiver to -4. But at -12 it is saying to set it to -10 on the receiver which is as low as it goes and so I ran the test again at -15 gain on the sub and it said to set it to -7.5 on the receiver.

I really feel that the volume on the sub is the same at -12 with -6 on the receiver as it was with -25 with 0dB on the receiver but maybe without the distortion it just sounds different.

I think the fact that according to those tests -12db is 0.5db higher than when it would start to recommend increasing the volume on the sub means I am at the perfect point now.

Will have to test more at some point but kids are asleep now.

Will listen to some music with a beat but quietly because before at -25 to beat the distorted LFE in that scene it made muaic weak. I hope now I can have one setting for everything.

Is there any way to do the maths on the end volume. I know it's not just like plus and minus equals with volume right?

I want to know what the volume of the sub is compared with before because it's hard to tell with the distortion gone. Because in theory it is 7dB louder than before but I fell like it might be a few dB quieter, I just didn't want to push my luck.

0 trim -25 sub is -25 but it the receiver-6 and the sub is -12 I don't think it's as simple as -18 total.

Does
I can't believe they sell top of the line receivers that clip the $#!+ out of the signal at 0db sub level/trim.
I have two SB13 ultra the predecessors of the sb4000. My subs are at -24 when i am doing a audyssey calibration and in the receiver it comes back at -9 db. After the calibration i put both sub amp gains at -19 db and in the receiver i put it at -5 db for both subs. I am not running a DYN EQ and that is why i run them that HOT (8-9db)...and when i watch that same Ready player one scene the subs doesent seem to struggle at -10 or even at -7 db (just for test purposes ) on the receiver but it sounds powerful ...i normally listen at or around -15 db from reference but never more than -10db and i havent heard the sign of struggles from the subs at my levels. I am extremely happy with them (espescially becasue i have two ) and i hope they serve me for many years (i have them for around 3-4 years).

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Last edited by tommaazz; 01-15-2020 at 11:08 AM.
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post #32241 of 32276 Old 01-15-2020, 02:32 PM
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I have two SB13 ultra the predecessors of the sb4000. My subs are at -24 when i am doing a audyssey calibration and in the receiver it comes back at -9 db. After the calibration i put both sub amp gains at -19 db and in the receiver i put it at -5 db for both subs. I am not running a DYN EQ and that is why i run them that HOT (8-9db)...and when i watch that same Ready player one scene the subs doesent seem to struggle at -10 or even at -7 db (just for test purposes ) on the receiver but it sounds powerful ...i normally listen at or around -15 db from reference but never more than -10db and i havent heard the sign of struggles from the subs at my levels. I am extremely happy with them (espescially becasue i have two ) and i hope they serve me for many years (i have them for around 3-4 years).
The Sledge 1000 is happier with a higher gain setting. Instead of splitting the difference between the subs and the AVR - I would leave the AVR at -9 and just add all 9 dB of (total) gain at the subs.

For example: -19 subs and -5 AVR is the same overall calibration level as -15 subs and -9 AVR - but the Sledge amps will make more peak power.

In fact as long as the subs are still waking up OK, I would even try -12 subs and -12 AVR (again same overall calibration level - just more gain at the sub amps).
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post #32242 of 32276 Old 01-15-2020, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by serg472 View Post
Stupid question but how do you turn this thing on and off without reaching all the way to the back for the switch? I can't believe they didn't include a simple power button on the remote. I know you can connect a trigger wire to it, but can't I just turn it on/off independently somehow?

Also what's the difference between standby=auto/on/off in app settings?

There is an app setting for turning the display off after 10s but doesn't look like it's working as expected.
Most common set-up:

Set the power mode to auto. Set the display to Off. Set the display time-out to 10 seconds.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Power mode On = the amp stays on/active all the time and will pull about 20W from the line.

Power mode Auto = the amp will drop into standby after 20 min of no signal. Power consumption will drop to 0.5W. When the amp drops into standby, the display will briefly illuminate and say 'goodbye'. When the amp wakes up with a signal, the display will briefly illuminate the last menu navigation location and then go dark again.

Power mode Trigger = the amp will stay powered on if the trigger input sees voltage and the amp will power down within seconds if the trigger input does not see any voltage.

Display mode Off = the display will illuminate when you are actively navigating with the app, remote or front panel display. After 10 seconds of no active use, it will go dark. You can change the time-out to longer than 10 seconds if you want - but there typically isn't a need.

++++++++++++++++++++

While it's not necessary if the amp is in Auto mode - if you want it to power down immediately for some reason, simply select Trigger mode and it will power down within seconds if there is nothing connected to the trigger input.
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post #32243 of 32276 Old 01-15-2020, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

The overriding theme here needs to be the subwoofer calibration level, relative to that of the speaker channels.

Discussing the subwoofer volume (gain) setting, the AVR sub channel level, or even the sub volume and the sub channel level - really doesn't tell us the actual calibration level of the subwoofer., relative to that of the speaker channels.

The level matching of all channels (including the subwoofer) is accomplished during auto-set-up. And even then - if the subwoofer gain is set too high - sometimes the AV processor won't be able to level match the subwoofer without running out of trim. Some AV processors give you a warning about this - most do not. The only potential clue is the AVR sub channel level is bottomed out at the minimum value after set-up is run.

If you have a real SPL meter with C/Slow (like a Galaxy CM-130) - it can be used as a sanity check for level matching all channels, including the subwoofer. The C-weighted filter will typically read 2-3 dB LOW on the rumble tone - so account for that when level matching.

Regardless, if the subwoofer is level matched to the speaker channels (via auto-set-up or an SPL meter), the chances of it overloading on any particular scene (like the RP1 referenced above) is greatly reduced.

It's very possible (likely even) that a 0 dB subwoofer volume and a 0 dB AVR sub channel level with an SB-4000 will result in the subwoofer being 10-20 dB too hot - and is just ends-up being a compressed droning mess with no dynamic range. The quiet bass is way too loud - and the loudest bass won't get any louder than the DSP limiter/compressor allows.

The best advice I can offer here is to re-run auto-set-up, making sure the post-calibration AVR subwoofer channel level isn't bottomed out at the minimum value. If that occurs - lower the subwoofer volume/gain and re-run set-up until you get something other than the minimum value. At that point, the combination of the subwoofer volume/gain and the post-calibration subwoofer channel level accurately defines the true level match for the subwoofer channel.

Any upward deviations from that baseline combination is - by definition - running the subwoofer channel 'hot'. How hot is a matter of subjective preference which seems chronically up for debate. But suffice it to say - adding gain over the baseline calibration level chews up dynamic headroom which would otherwise be available for the subwoofer to play demanding peaks without running into compression.

To the extent personal preference for 'hotness' and the overall system playback level is inconsistent with the maximum uncompressed dynamic output limits of the subwoofer - the typical recommendation is to add another subwoofer or upgrade to a more powerful subwoofer - with the end goal being uncompressed (or minimally compressed) playback of the subwoofer channel.
Thanks for all the info and tips. I've never ran the sub at 0dB.

In all the svs documentation etc it says that the sub should typically be run between -5 and -15dB. What sub channel level from the avr would be expected at this level. Is -6dB receiver sub level and -12dB sub at -12dB avr within this expected range?
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post #32244 of 32276 Old 01-16-2020, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post
Thanks for all the info and tips. I've never ran the sub at 0dB.

In all the svs documentation etc it says that the sub should typically be run between -5 and -15dB. What sub channel level from the avr would be expected at this level. Is -6dB receiver sub level and -12dB sub at -12dB avr within this expected range?
Set the subwoofer volume/gain to -15 and run auto-set-up and let us know where it trims out the subwoofer. Then we'll know what the true level match baseline is and we can go from there.

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post #32245 of 32276 Old 01-16-2020, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post
Thanks for all the info and tips. I've never ran the sub at 0dB.

In all the svs documentation etc it says that the sub should typically be run between -5 and -15dB. What sub channel level from the avr would be expected at this level. Is -6dB receiver sub level and -12dB sub at -12dB avr within this expected range?
Set the subwoofer volume/gain to -15 and run auto-set-up and let us know where it trims out the subwoofer. Then we'll know what the true level match baseline is and we can go from there.
At -15dB gain the calibration came back at -7.5.


I have since left the receiver at -6dB sub level and set the sub to -16 but I'm not sure if that is where it will stay. Thanks fir the help.
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post #32246 of 32276 Old 01-16-2020, 06:36 AM
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At -15dB gain the calibration came back at -7.5.


I have since left the receiver at -6dB sub level and set the sub to -16 but I'm not sure if that is where it will stay. Thanks fir the help.
Jot down -15/-7.5 as the baseline calibration level. Leave the subwoofer volume at -15. Adjust the subwoofer channel level up/down (from -7.5) as needed in the AVR.

Going to -15/-7.5 to -16/-6 only changed the overall gain level by +0.5 dB - so I'm not sure what you were attempting to accomplish with that particular set of adjustments.

It's typical/common to run the subwoofer at least a few dB hot. You might want to try -15/-3.5 which is a 4 dB gain increase and will be quite noticeable.

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post #32247 of 32276 Old 01-16-2020, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchalfont View Post
At -15dB gain the calibration came back at -7.5.


I have since left the receiver at -6dB sub level and set the sub to -16 but I'm not sure if that is where it will stay. Thanks fir the help.
Jot down -15/-7.5 as the baseline calibration level. Leave the subwoofer volume at -15. Adjust the subwoofer channel level up/down (from -7.5) as needed in the AVR.

Going to -15/-7.5 to -16/-6 only changed the overall gain level by +0.5 dB - so I'm not sure what you were attempting to accomplish with that particular set of adjustments.

It's typical/common to run the subwoofer at least a few dB hot. You might want to try -15/-3.5 which is a 4 dB gain increase and will be quite noticeable.
Basically I just didn't want to have to change the receiver setting again as it was easier to increase the sub. It all comes back to that scene and I felt that maybe it was struggling a bit at the -12/-6 I set it to initially so I dialed it back a bit.

The only other scene that caused it trouble was in the intro to alita battle angel and that noise went away when I reduced the volume to -14/0dB before I even started reducing further for ready player one. Basically I could run it another 7dB hotter I think and have no problema even with the next worst case scenario LFE but I don't even want to damage the sub or have to hear distortion. If I could I would raise it a few more dB but the second sub will get me there at tax time and I won't have to worry.
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post #32248 of 32276 Old 01-16-2020, 09:03 AM
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The Sledge 1000 is happier with a higher gain setting. Instead of splitting the difference between the subs and the AVR - I would leave the AVR at -9 and just add all 9 dB of (total) gain at the subs.

For example: -19 subs and -5 AVR is the same overall calibration level as -15 subs and -9 AVR - but the Sledge amps will make more peak power.

In fact as long as the subs are still waking up OK, I would even try -12 subs and -12 AVR (again same overall calibration level - just more gain at the sub amps).
Thank you very much Ed for a very useful tip . I will first try -12 and -12 as i am almost sure it will work fine because the subs wake up with no problem at around -40db on receiver so -12 on AVR will not be a problem. I am otherwise a very take a good care of your equipment guy as i always want to be on the safe side of the things nad not push it (or my luck) too much . Even though it seems that i am running subs very hot (around +9db post calibration-i am not using DYN EQ) it seems that the audyssey is very conservative with sub level because if i take a measurement on my analog sound level meter (on slow and C weightening) it only shows around 4-5 db above the calibrated levels of my speakers...if i take it with the audyssey calibrated levels then the subs are well below 75 db on sound meter...odd But the most important thing is that it sounds fantastic , no boominess no fatiguing just pure bass when needed . Thanks Ed and co for such a wonderful subs and all the support and help .

DENON AVR-X4300 running 5.2.4, monitor audio bx6,bx center,bx fx (4x),bx1,sub SVS sb13ultra (2x), SAMSUNG 65Q6FN, CPU AMD Ryzen5+RX580
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post #32249 of 32276 Old 01-16-2020, 09:18 AM
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Thank you very much Ed for a very useful tip . I will first try -12 and -12 as i am almost sure it will work fine because the subs wake up with no problem at around -40db on receiver so -12 on AVR will not be a problem. I am otherwise a very take a good care of your equipment guy as i always want to be on the safe side of the things nad not push it (or my luck) too much . Even though it seems that i am running subs very hot (around +9db post calibration-i am not using DYN EQ) it seems that the audyssey is very conservative with sub level because if i take a measurement on my analog sound level meter (on slow and C weightening) it only shows around 4-5 db above the calibrated levels of my speakers...if i take it with the audyssey calibrated levels then the subs are well below 75 db on sound meter...odd But the most important thing is that it sounds fantastic , no boominess no fatiguing just pure bass when needed . Thanks Ed and co for such a wonderful subs and all the support and help .
If you are using a C-weighted SPL meter, add about 3 dB to the value displayed on the meter for the true/actual SPL on the subwoofer rumble tone. If you do that - it should correlate pretty well with how hot you are running the subwoofer over the speaker channels.

Go here for more info on the C-weighted filter curve. As you can see - the C-weighted filter will cause the SPL meter to read (on average) about 3 dB low in the subwoofer rumble tone bandwidth.

When you measure the SPL of test tones, make sure the processor master volume is set to reference level (0 dB or 82 dB typically with Denon/Marantz). Then the speaker channels should be pretty close to 75 dB C/Slow.
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post #32250 of 32276 Old 01-16-2020, 09:33 AM
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Looking at getting dual SB-3000 and I have limited placement options and curious whether the 3000 prefers the corner or being more toward the middle of the room? I’m thinking of a setup similar to what’s in the pic. Thanks




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