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post #32791 of 33538 Old 03-16-2020, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gene4ht View Post
Highly recommend visiting and reviewing the wealth of information in the following thread. Although the “guide” is comprehensive and can seem to be initially intimidating...take your time and seek the information you currently need/want...i.e. Section VIII-A. Then post any clarifying questions you may have.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html
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Originally Posted by rocksarkar View Post
Need advice on buying new subs for my system... i have been using deftech supercube 1 /7002 tower for years and always suffered with boomy sounds and never able to enjoy music.. but now getting serious and got kef r11 and r2c....marantz 8805/emotiva xpa-5... i am planing to go with dual pb-2000 pro or sb-2000 but not sure of difference ported or sealed..i listen music and movies 50/50 .. and also footprints of subs.i am attaching my room size pic
A direct link for the Section, mention by Gene;
VIII-A: Sealed Versus Ported Subwoofers:

And want to point out, while the Guide do seem intimating at first. It is worth reading a few time, to digest everything. You can also start with the Cliff Notes at the beginning of-it, since it is a very good mini version for a good starting point. And then revisit those important point to you, when time permit.

And should mention, that port sub/s are my Bias.


Darth
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post #32792 of 33538 Old 03-17-2020, 06:08 AM
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Official SVS Owners/Support Thread.

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Originally Posted by rocksarkar View Post
... always suffered with boomy sounds and never able to enjoy music..

Are you using room correction software and/or room treatments? Boomy sound isn’t typically a problem with the speaker, but rather a problem with the room. Or the speaker’s position in the room.


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post #32793 of 33538 Old 03-17-2020, 06:37 AM
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I will test those modes one day when I get a chance with REW but in the mean time I see that you have a Yamaha receiver, so I am sure you have seen and maybe tried the Extra Bass setting under the option menu. Those options typically get a bad name and rightly so for movie watching and general calibration, but for listening to music it might be what you are looking for until you make a change with subwoofers.

I measured the Extra Bass setting in the past and what it did at my house was pull down around 250Hz slightly before beginning to boost around 180 to 200 Hz. The boost was approximately 5-7db depending on volume and it stayed consistent and flat until about 40Hz where it sloped off at around a 24db slope before evening off at approximately the spl where it began it's boost.

Easy enough to engage and disengage when you want to listen to music and it won't effect any custom calibration or integration that you performed when setting up the sub.
I finally played with settings on my receiver last night and came to the conclusion that these settings are not intuitive. I got my Paradigm towers last May and left them set as small because otherwise it does not use the sub. I turned extra bass on last night because Audioholics said it allows my towers to get the full spectrum of sound. Boy did that make a difference! Granted even without extra bass i was still feeling the port of my towers move but now it really moves.

So the settings on my Yamaha I can set my fronts to full and it defaults to the sub off unless i turn on extra bass. Or i set the speakers to small and get the sub on by default but it must put the crossover much higher. I definitely noticed that all those old music tracks sound boomy again like they did back in the day. Thank you so much!

I think i will leave my settings to be speakers set to small and i can then i can turn extra bass on or off to determine how much bass to send to the towers. This way i can reduce the bass on the towers since a lot of movies may not need the port when the Sub is enough. Otherwise if I use speakers set to full then the tweak is simply sub on or off.

The thing i am trying to understand is if i am using speakers set to small does the crossover work? I could not tell a difference and am wondering if setting the speakers to small is somehow overriding the crossover frequency. i will have to play with it more by turning the speakers on full and see if can notice a difference with different crossover frequencies.

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post #32794 of 33538 Old 03-17-2020, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Kiler View Post
I finally played with settings on my receiver last night and came to the conclusion that these settings are not intuitive. I got my Paradigm towers last May and left them set as small because otherwise it does not use the sub. I turned extra bass on last night because Audioholics said it allows my towers to get the full spectrum of sound. Boy did that make a difference! Granted even without extra bass i was still feeling the port of my towers move but now it really moves.

So the settings on my Yamaha I can set my fronts to full and it defaults to the sub off unless i turn on extra bass. Or i set the speakers to small and get the sub on by default but it must put the crossover much higher. I definitely noticed that all those old music tracks sound boomy again like they did back in the day. Thank you so much!

I think i will leave my settings to be speakers set to small and i can then i can turn extra bass on or off to determine how much bass to send to the towers. This way i can reduce the bass on the towers since a lot of movies may not need the port when the Sub is enough. Otherwise if I use speakers set to full then the tweak is simply sub on or off.

The thing i am trying to understand is if i am using speakers set to small do the crossover work? I could not tell a difference and am wondering if setting the speakers to small is somehow overriding the crossover frequency. i will have to play with it more by turning the speakers on full and see if can notice a difference with different crossover frequencies.

Hi Jim,

You have many different ways to enjoy your speakers and your subwoofer. If you set your speakers to Small, you are implementing what's called "bass management". That involves allowing your speakers to play only higher bass frequencies, and allowing your subwoofers to play the lower bass frequencies for which they were designed. The crossovers will definitely be in operation when the speakers are set to Small. If you want to hear your subwoofer more, when your speakers are set to Small, just turn-up the volume on your sub.

There is also a feature which is often referred to by the generic term "double-bass". (That sounds like the Extra Bass your Yamaha lets you use. With Audyssey, it is called LFE+Main.) As a general rule, allowing both your speakers and your subwoofer to play the same frequencies will result in the perception of more bass, but it may also result in what is sometimes called "one-note bass", where some frequencies are emphasized at the expense of others. That "boomy" sound that you mentioned would be pretty characteristic of allowing both your speakers and sub to play the same frequencies at the same time.

If you want to understand how crossovers work, Section III of the Guide, linked in my signature, explains them in some detail. The terms used are written from the perspective of the more commonly-used Audyssey systems, but the same basic principles apply to your system. Just substitute the relevant Yamaha terms.

Here is a direct link to Section III:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ences.html#III

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #32795 of 33538 Old 03-17-2020, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post
I will test those modes one day when I get a chance with REW but in the mean time I see that you have a Yamaha receiver, so I am sure you have seen and maybe tried the Extra Bass setting under the option menu. Those options typically get a bad name and rightly so for movie watching and general calibration, but for listening to music it might be what you are looking for until you make a change with subwoofers.

I measured the Extra Bass setting in the past and what it did at my house was pull down around 250Hz slightly before beginning to boost around 180 to 200 Hz. The boost was approximately 5-7db depending on volume and it stayed consistent and flat until about 40Hz where it sloped off at around a 24db slope before evening off at approximately the spl where it began it's boost.

Easy enough to engage and disengage when you want to listen to music and it won't effect any custom calibration or integration that you performed when setting up the sub.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Jim,

You have many different ways to enjoy your speakers and your subwoofer. If you set your speakers to Small, you are implementing what's called "bass management". That involves allowing your speakers to play only higher bass frequencies, and allowing your subwoofers to play the lower bass frequencies for which they were designed. The crossovers will definitely be in operation when the speakers are set to Small. If you want to hear your subwoofer more, when your speakers are set to Small, just turn-up the volume on your sub.

There is also a feature which is often referred to by the generic term "double-bass". (That sounds like the Extra Bass your Yamaha lets you use. With Audyssey, it is called LFE+Main.) As a general rule, allowing both your speakers and your subwoofer to play the same frequencies will result in the perception of more bass, but it may also result in what is sometimes called "one-note bass", where some frequencies are emphasized at the expense of others. That "boomy" sound that you mentioned would be pretty characteristic of allowing both your speakers and sub to play the same frequencies at the same time.

If you want to understand how crossovers work, Section III of the Guide, linked in my signature, explains them in some detail. The terms used are written from the perspective of the more commonly-used Audyssey systems, but the same basic principles apply to your system. Just substitute the relevant Yamaha terms.

Here is a direct link to Section III:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ences.html#III

Regards,
Mike
yes my old Marantz used the terms sub, main, or main+LFE. So a year ago when i played with the crossover i could not tell a sound difference and my speakers were set to small. My towers go down to 54Hz and with extra bass they are definitely getting more range. I honestly did not care about the sound for most movies with a DD or better encoding but all my old music had no bass. The only exception was my 5.1 DVD's like Nine Inch Nails which were mastered with more low end frequencies.

I am thinking i will use extra bass when listening to music or older movies that do not have a lot of ultra low frequencies. But before i was contemplating a sub upgrade and now I think i need a receiver upgrade with more advanced controls because i would like to have more full range to the towers but the yamaha is making it too boomy at times. I bought a sealed sub because i prefer more tight controlled bass. I am sure there is a happy medium i can find. I should try the YPAO again as well. Maybe that will sound better.
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post #32796 of 33538 Old 03-17-2020, 08:43 AM
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So connected all my subs together (daisy chained) and ran only my sub 1 pre-out on my Marantz to see if this helps as some have suggested. it was actually worse than having my front pair connected to sub 1 and my rear pair connected to sub 2. i guess i have no luck. although at the moment the sound is way better than when i had two subs but i feel there is always more. i don't have an XLR splitter (y-cable) that's why i ran them like this, i think it's the same thing.
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post #32797 of 33538 Old 03-17-2020, 05:32 PM
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So connected all my subs together (daisy chained) and ran only my sub 1 pre-out on my Marantz to see if this helps as some have suggested. it was actually worse than having my front pair connected to sub 1 and my rear pair connected to sub 2. i guess i have no luck. although at the moment the sound is way better than when i had two subs but i feel there is always more. i don't have an XLR splitter (y-cable) that's why i ran them like this, i think it's the same thing.
More likely due to the reasont, your calibration system. Have no way to set, the different subs distance.

Buy a couple of XLR splitter, and run your front subs to Sub 1 and the rear ones to Sub 2. Having both front subs at an equidistance from your MLP, and the same for your rear ones. This way, your calibration system will see two different subs. And adjust different distance between the front and back ones. Will help to have better result, after your calibration.

The front and back subs, do not need to be a the same distance from your MLP. Just the distance of the front as a pair to your MLP, and rear ones as another pair.


Darth

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post #32798 of 33538 Old 03-18-2020, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Jim,

You have many different ways to enjoy your speakers and your subwoofer. If you set your speakers to Small, you are implementing what's called "bass management". That involves allowing your speakers to play only higher bass frequencies, and allowing your subwoofers to play the lower bass frequencies for which they were designed. The crossovers will definitely be in operation when the speakers are set to Small. If you want to hear your subwoofer more, when your speakers are set to Small, just turn-up the volume on your sub.

There is also a feature which is often referred to by the generic term "double-bass". (That sounds like the Extra Bass your Yamaha lets you use. With Audyssey, it is called LFE+Main.) As a general rule, allowing both your speakers and your subwoofer to play the same frequencies will result in the perception of more bass, but it may also result in what is sometimes called "one-note bass", where some frequencies are emphasized at the expense of others. That "boomy" sound that you mentioned would be pretty characteristic of allowing both your speakers and sub to play the same frequencies at the same time.

If you want to understand how crossovers work, Section III of the Guide, linked in my signature, explains them in some detail. The terms used are written from the perspective of the more commonly-used Audyssey systems, but the same basic principles apply to your system. Just substitute the relevant Yamaha terms.

Here is a direct link to Section III:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ences.html#III

Regards,
Mike
I reran Yamaha YPAO last night and it set all my speakers to large and wanted my crossover to be 40Hz. It left extra bass on, but i am not sure it modifies that setting.
I did change the sub from -10 back to 0 and then I tested it and it was too shallow sounding so i went to 60Hz. I definitely noticed a difference in the crossover frequency now and while at times 80Hz was fine, it got too boomy a couple of times so 60Hz is a good compromise.

Time to rewatch some movies that i know have good bass but did not feel it last time like Rambo (2008) and Oblivion. Other movies with the ULF like Blade Runner 2049 always sounded good even with my poorly calibrated system!

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post #32799 of 33538 Old 03-18-2020, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I have a question about the PB-3000 and the SB-4000. How does a pair of PB-3000's compare to a pair of SB-4000's? My issue is space, the PB-3000's take up a lot of space and are somewhat difficult to locate and get the best performance without destroying the aesthetics of the room they're in. Would I be shooting myself in the foot making the move from the PB-3000 to the SB-4000? All for the sake of having them fit more naturally and pleasingly in the room they'll be used in?

Thanks
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In terms of output the PB3000s are going to destroy or equal the SB4000s at literally every frequency over 16hz (even midbass) if we go off the SB16 Ultra review. I couldn't find CEA measurements of the SB4000.

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...000/conclusion

https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...a/measurements

At 20hz the PB3000 have 8 more db of output then the SB16 ultra, 7 more db at 25, 2 more db at 31. The gap would be even wider between the PB3000 and the SB 4000.

So if its a home theater application my opinion is that a PB3000 is quite a bit better then even the SB16 ultra much less the SB4000.

For music I'm sure the SB4000 and SB16 Ultra have subjective improvements in sound quality, for movies I'd take the PB3000 all day. You could plug the ports on the PB3000 as well and get a subjective SQ improvement on music. Maybe its still not a match, hard to quantify especially when you factor the room in etc. You have more finish options with the SB4000 and SB16 too for what its worth.

One more thing, the measurements are max output, so if you don't listen very loud then you could go SB4000.
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Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post
Although those graphs provided by Audioholics may appear to show the ported sub to far out perform the sealed through most frequencies, we don't typically use these subs in a parking lot where those were tested. In a room, with room gain, the sealed sub would perform quite well and in some rooms outperform the ported one in many frequencies including sub 20 Hz.
Both great points - yes, the PB-3000 has more output down deep than the SB-4000. With that said, the SB-4000 will take better advantage of room gain, and its in-room performance at ULFs will be considerably better than the CEA-2010 deltas might otherwise suggest.

Further, if you aren't pushing the SB-4000s to their limits at ULFs - to the point compression would occur - then there is literally no downside to going with them, only upsides/benefits. This would be a function of your typical master volume setting, how hot the subs are running, and the source material - but typically in a living/family room setting, duplicating IMAX theater playback levels is not a high priority.

I would be shocked if a pair of SB-4000s in a living room system don't exceed your expectations in every way and would be my first choice - particularly when lifestyle considerations like size, footprint, visual impact and decor integration are also high priorities.
I have been debating similar options. I was running pb2000 and returned due to the pro series release but, have decided maybe I should go ahead and step it up a notch now and buy something more long term. I was mostly satisfied with the pb2000 performance as it was definitely better than the out going Velodyne cht 12’s That I have owned for the last 15 yrs or so.
At what point would you consider the pb3000’s over the sb4000’s ? I keep going back and forth on what to get and was all but decided on the pb3k until I read this.
My room is 20x15 9ft ceilings. It has a double opening to the foyer (10x6) and a double opening to the dinning room.
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post #32800 of 33538 Old 03-18-2020, 07:29 AM
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I have been debating similar options. I was running pb2000 and returned due to the pro series release but, have decided maybe I should go ahead and step it up a notch now and buy something more long term. I was mostly satisfied with the pb2000 performance as it was definitely better than the out going Velodyne cht 12’s That I have owned for the last 15 yrs or so.
At what point would you consider the pb3000’s over the sb4000’s ? I keep going back and forth on what to get and was all but decided on the pb3k until I read this.
My room is 20x15 9ft ceilings. It has a double opening to the foyer (10x6) and a double opening to the dinning room.
Most of us understand that sound quality is subjective, have a preference for a particular sound signature, and very dependent on a particular room’s physical and acoustic properties/characteristics. Your answer/decision is and should be based on which product sounds best to you in your environment. If you’re located in the U.S., SVS’s Bill Of Rights affords you the opportunity to do just that!
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post #32801 of 33538 Old 03-18-2020, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Blake2163 View Post
I have been debating similar options. I was running pb2000 and returned due to the pro series release but, have decided maybe I should go ahead and step it up a notch now and buy something more long term. I was mostly satisfied with the pb2000 performance as it was definitely better than the out going Velodyne cht 12’s That I have owned for the last 15 yrs or so.
At what point would you consider the pb3000’s over the sb4000’s ? I keep going back and forth on what to get and was all but decided on the pb3k until I read this.
My room is 20x15 9ft ceilings. It has a double opening to the foyer (10x6) and a double opening to the dinning room.

Hi Blake,

Your primary room is 2700^3. You will get "most" of the room gain that an approximately 3000^3 room would get. Some bass will inevitably escape into adjoining spaces, but I believe the fact that you have four walls, returning at each corner, will still enable you to get most of the room gain that a room of about 3000^3 would get.

So, let's start with that. You don't have what I would consider to be a small room, and that means that you won't get quite as much room gain as you might wish to have. Most people define somewhere in about the 2500^3 to 3000^3 range as the dividing line for recommending ported versus sealed subs. That is especially the case for primarily movie/HT/Gaming applications.

The second factor for me is how well you liked your PB2000? (I couldn't tell whether you had one or two.) You said that you were mostly satisfied with it's performance, but what does that mean? Did you feel it was deficient in some way? Did it lack sufficient clarity, or low-frequency output? Did you enjoy the additional low-bass tactile sensations (TR) that the ported sub provided, compared to the sealed Velodynes you had?

Some people do hear differences between ported subs and sealed subs. I believe that some of what they hear is a greater preponderance of low-frequencies with the ported subs. Room gain amplifies both ported and sealed subs, so ported subs will typically have proportionally more low-bass to mid-bass than sealed subs will. And, room EQ will not entirely make-up that difference, in most cases. Ported subs also produce more low-bass TR than comparable sealed subs will. And, that can also influence our listening impressions in either positive or negative ways.

I agree with Gene that SVS's free-trial policy works in your favor here. If I were you, I would try either a PB3000 or a PB4000. (Or a pair of either PB3000's or PB4000's if you are running a pair of subs.) The difference between the two models will be in the lowest frequencies. The PB4000 will be far stronger below 20Hz. Both of those models will allow you to compare ported modes, and sealed modes, for the same subwoofer. That should be the easiest way to tell what you prefer.

One of my concerns is, that if you liked the lower-bass tactile sensations of the PB2000, you might miss those if you moved to a sealed sub. That might be part of the reason you liked the PB2000 better than your Velodynes. But, buying either a PB3000, or a PB4000 (or a PC4000), will allow you to test ported versus sealed, in your own room, as if you had one of each subwoofer type to try. I think that experiment will be the best way to determine whether you prefer ported or sealed, in your specific room, for your specific preferences.

What you choose to do then, depends on what you discover.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #32802 of 33538 Old 03-18-2020, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake2163 View Post
I have been debating similar options. I was running pb2000 and returned due to the pro series release but, have decided maybe I should go ahead and step it up a notch now and buy something more long term. I was mostly satisfied with the pb2000 performance as it was definitely better than the out going Velodyne cht 12’️s That I have owned for the last 15 yrs or so.
At what point would you consider the pb3000’️s over the sb4000’️s ? I keep going back and forth on what to get and was all but decided on the pb3k until I read this.
My room is 20x15 9ft ceilings. It has a double opening to the foyer (10x6) and a double opening to the dinning room.

Hi Blake,

Your primary room is 2700^3. You will get "most" of the room gain that an approximately 3000^3 room would get. Some bass will inevitably escape into adjoining spaces, but I believe the fact that you have four walls, returning at each corner, will still enable you to get most of the room gain that a room of about 3000^3 would get.

So, let's start with that. You don't have what I would consider to be a small room, and that means that you won't get quite as much room gain as you might wish to have. Most people define somewhere in about the 2500^3 to 3000^3 range as the dividing line for recommending ported versus sealed subs. That is especially the case for primarily movie/HT/Gaming applications.

The second factor for me is how well you liked your PB2000? (I couldn't tell whether you had one or two.) You said that you were mostly satisfied with it's performance, but what does that mean? Did you feel it was deficient in some way? Did it lack sufficient clarity, or low-frequency output? Did you enjoy the additional low-bass tactile sensations (TR) that the ported sub provided, compared to the sealed Velodynes you had?

Some people do hear differences between ported subs and sealed subs. I believe that some of what they hear is a greater preponderance of low-frequencies with the ported subs. Room gain amplifies both ported and sealed subs, so ported subs will typically have proportionally more low-bass to mid-bass than sealed subs will. And, room EQ will not entirely make-up that difference, in most cases. Ported subs also produce more low-bass TR than comparable sealed subs will. And, that can also influence our listening impressions in either positive or negative ways.

I agree with Gene that SVS's free-trial policy works in your favor here. If I were you, I would try either a PB3000 or a PB4000. (Or a pair of either PB3000's or PB4000's if you are running a pair of subs.) The difference between the two models will be in the lowest frequencies. The PB4000 will be far stronger below 20Hz. Both of those models will allow you to compare ported modes, and sealed modes, for the same subwoofer. That should be the easiest way to tell what you prefer.

One of my concerns is, that if you liked the lower-bass tactile sensations of the PB2000, you might miss those if you moved to a sealed sub. That might be part of the reason you liked the PB2000 better than your Velodynes. But, buying either a PB3000, or a PB4000 (or a PC4000), will allow you to test ported versus sealed, in your own room, as if you had one of each subwoofer type to try. I think that experiment will be the best way to determine whether you prefer ported or sealed, in your specific room, for your specific preferences.

What you choose to do then, depends on what you discover.

Regards,
Mike
Thank you guys for the replies ! Sorry I was pre occupied while posting earlier and should have included a few things I didn’t.

My primary use will be HT. Some music. I have done extensive reading on the subject trying to gather my on conclusion on what would fit me best. Unfortunately the has proven to be harder than expected due to everyone’s individual opinions on what works best for given scenarios.

The out going subs are slot ported 12” subs. They have no real tactile response what so ever. I enjoyed the pb2000 enough that I would have kept it and purchased a second had they not released the pro. I sent it back wanting to get the pro for the new design and added PEQ. The only issues I really had with the pb2k was some extra tactile response would be great because it didn’t come through much but the few times it does definitely bring a smile. The only other real complaint was a low end lingering boom the stay too long and tended to be a little over bearing on certain material and on certain types of music that I enjoy such as DMB and some of John Mayer’s older music would get over blown. Maybe some EQ or just turning it down a notch would have cured the problem. I do have a umik1 and got things as smooth as I could for the time. Maybe it was clarity I was looking for ?

I don’t have room for anything as large as pb4k which is why I have come to the choices of sb4k thinking that 2 of those considering bigger driver and more than twice the power and with room gain involved would match or exceed 2 pb2k. The second choice is 2 Pb3k’s as a kind of meet in the middle compromise as the only add about 1” to the depth. The pb3k’s will just be a little more limited on placement than the sb4k’s would. Whatever I choose will be duals.

Do the sealed 4k’s lack TR? Or is it just different than what the 2k or 3k would have.

Blake

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post #32803 of 33538 Old 03-18-2020, 12:51 PM
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I reran Yamaha YPAO last night and it set all my speakers to large and wanted my crossover to be 40Hz. It left extra bass on, but i am not sure it modifies that setting.
I did change the sub from -10 back to 0 and then I tested it and it was too shallow sounding so i went to 60Hz. I definitely noticed a difference in the crossover frequency now and while at times 80Hz was fine, it got too boomy a couple of times so 60Hz is a good compromise.

Time to rewatch some movies that i know have good bass but did not feel it last time like Rambo (2008) and Oblivion. Other movies with the ULF like Blade Runner 2049 always sounded good even with my poorly calibrated system!

YPAO will bypass any settings selected in the option menu so having Extra Bass engaged would not effect the measurement.

YPAO sets my speakers to large as well and apparently most speakers if you peruse the receiver forums, I change mine to 80Hz as I have found that gives me the best balance in my room

Extra Bass is mostly a boost in the 40 to 60Hz region and if I had to guess I would say it's oriented to music tracks as that region will give some weight to the music. Also, I would guess that Yamaha is assuming that you are using the YPAO channel levels that were set during the calibration which of course would not provide any boost to the subwoofer channel or running it "hot" as we say. If you are running the sub hot then the Extra Bass setting could definitely sound boomy and over the top.

You could play with the Enhancer as well, I measured the Enhancer and it provides the old loudness curve which is a boost in the low and high end. I think the boost in the high end is harsh with my setup so I determined through REW that if you turn on the Enhancer and then set the treble control to -3 you will in effect have just have a low frequency boost. The boost in the low end is around 3 db and not a bad quick fix if you are watching a movie or listening to music and feel that it needs a little bottom.
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post #32804 of 33538 Old 03-18-2020, 12:58 PM
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Thank you guys for the replies ! Sorry I was pre occupied while posting earlier and should have included a few things I didn’t.

My primary use will be HT. Some music. I have done extensive reading on the subject trying to gather my on conclusion on what would fit me best. Unfortunately the has proven to be harder than expected due to everyone’s individual opinions on what works best for given scenarios.

The out going subs are slot ported 12” subs. They have no real tactile response what so ever. I enjoyed the pb2000 enough that I would have kept it and purchased a second had they not released the pro. I sent it back wanting to get the pro for the new design and added PEQ. The only issues I really had with the pb2k was some extra tactile response would be great because it didn’t come through much but the few times it does definitely bring a smile. The only other real complaint was a low end lingering boom the stay too long and tended to be a little over bearing on certain material and on certain types of music that I enjoy such as DMB and some of John Mayer’s older music would get over blown. Maybe some EQ or just turning it down a notch would have cured the problem. I do have a umik1 and got things as smooth as I could for the time. Maybe it was clarity I was looking for ?

I don’t have room for anything as large as pb4k which is why I have come to the choices of sb4k thinking that 2 of those considering bigger driver and more than twice the power and with room gain involved would match or exceed 2 pb2k. The second choice is 2 Pb3k’s as a kind of meet in the middle compromise as the only add about 1” to the depth. The pb3k’s will just be a little more limited on placement than the sb4k’s would. Whatever I choose will be duals.

Do the sealed 4k’s lack TR? Or is it just different than what the 2k or 3k would have.

Blake

You are very welcome! I think you will notice quite a bit more low-bass TR from ported subs, compared to sealed subs. There can be differences between low-bass tactile sensations, in about the 14Hz to 20Hz range, and the room compression or pressurization which can sometimes be felt in sealed rooms, at high volume levels. If you want to read more about the mechanism that causes low-bass tactile sensations, both Section VII and Section VIII of the Guide, linked in my signature, explore that phenomenon in some detail.

One reason I mentioned the PC4000 was for the reduced foot print that it offers. The PB/PC4000 will go much lower than the PB2000 or the PB3000. You pay extra for the <20Hz frequencies, so if you want more ULF SPL and TR, that is something to keep in mind.

The PB3000's will have slightly clearer bass than your single PB2000 did, and they will have much more mid-bass. I believe that a single PB3000 would also have a little more low-bass than a single PB2000 would, and dual PB3000's will add about another +6dB to the low-frequencies, above what a single one would add. I suspect that some of the boominess you heard was from a single sub, operating in a larger space, and there may have been some setting issues involved too.

As for whether you will like sealed or ported better, I repeat that the best way to determine that is to buy a ported sub with a sealed mode, and test it both ways. If you like ported better, you keep it and get another identical one. If you like sealed better, I would return it and get two identical sealed subs. Of course, you could keep the ported sub and run it in sealed mode, but that doesn't seem as cost-effective to me. SVS will work with you, whatever you decide.

The key point, though, is that you won't be able to decide this on an abstract level. If we were good at doing that, we wouldn't have to exchange and upgrade our subs as much as we do on these threads. You really need to test the ported/sealed option, in your own room, to decide what you like better. And, your final choice may involve some sort of compromise, where one priority emerges as more important than a competing one. That is another reason why abstract discussions, like this one, can only take you so far.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: Based on something Blake said in response to the above post, I decided to edit my post for others who may be reading along. I definitely think that room size, and room construction, can be very important factors in subwoofer selection. For instance, small rooms can add a lot of room gain, and a room with a suspended wood floor can make low-frequencies sound and feel very different, compared to a concrete floor laid on soil.

Having said that though, I honestly believe that personal listener preference may be an even more important factor than the room. People who are able to visit other HT's, and hear subs demoed there, are often able to make much better informed subwoofer choices, even though their own rooms don't offer identical SPL and TR characteristics. For most of us, who don't have those opportunities however, trial-and-error is still the best way to select subwoofers for our own rooms.

We just need to find ways to take advantage of the opportunities that SVS's free-trial period give us. If we are considering moving-up to one of the higher model subs, and we are debating sealed versus ported, we can try both modes in some of the ported subwoofers. That is the easiest head-to-head comparison that we will ever make, because we never even have to move the subwoofer from the room position that works best. And, if we are willing to dispense with room EQ for some of our listening comparisons, we can cycle back-and-forth between sealed and ported fairly quickly if we want to.

Personally, I prefer longer listening sessions, when I am evaluating any kind of speakers. So, the quick back-and-forth is not as helpful for me, as just allowing impressions to form gradually, in their own time. But, a subwoofer with both sealed and ported modes affords us multiple ways to make comparisons, in order to better define our own preferences. Then, we just go with the type of subwoofer we like best.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #32805 of 33538 Old 03-18-2020, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake2163 View Post
Thank you guys for the replies ! Sorry I was pre occupied while posting earlier and should have included a few things I didn&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t.

My primary use will be HT. Some music. I have done extensive reading on the subject trying to gather my on conclusion on what would fit me best. Unfortunately the has proven to be harder than expected due to everyone&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s individual opinions on what works best for given scenarios.

The out going subs are slot ported 12&#226;€ subs. They have no real tactile response what so ever. I enjoyed the pb2000 enough that I would have kept it and purchased a second had they not released the pro. I sent it back wanting to get the pro for the new design and added PEQ. The only issues I really had with the pb2k was some extra tactile response would be great because it didn&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t come through much but the few times it does definitely bring a smile. The only other real complaint was a low end lingering boom the stay too long and tended to be a little over bearing on certain material and on certain types of music that I enjoy such as DMB and some of John Mayer&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s older music would get over blown. Maybe some EQ or just turning it down a notch would have cured the problem. I do have a umik1 and got things as smooth as I could for the time. Maybe it was clarity I was looking for ?

I don&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t have room for anything as large as pb4k which is why I have come to the choices of sb4k thinking that 2 of those considering bigger driver and more than twice the power and with room gain involved would match or exceed 2 pb2k. The second choice is 2 Pb3k&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s as a kind of meet in the middle compromise as the only add about 1&#226;€ to the depth. The pb3k&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s will just be a little more limited on placement than the sb4k&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s would. Whatever I choose will be duals.

Do the sealed 4k&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s lack TR? Or is it just different than what the 2k or 3k would have.

Blake

You are very welcome! I think you will notice quite a bit more low-bass TR from ported subs, compared to sealed subs. There can be differences between low-bass tactile sensations, in about the 14Hz to 20Hz range, and the room compression or pressurization which can sometimes be felt in sealed rooms, at high volume levels. If you want to read more about the mechanism that causes low-bass tactile sensations, both Section VII and Section VIII of the Guide, linked in my signature, explore that phenomenon in some detail.

One reason I mentioned the PC4000 was for the reduced foot print that it offers. The PB/PC4000 will go much lower than the PB2000 or the PB3000. You pay extra for the <20Hz frequencies, so if you want more ULF SPL and TR, that is something to keep in mind.

The PB3000's will have slightly clearer bass than your single PB2000 did, and they will have much more mid-bass. I believe that a single PB3000 would also have a little more low-bass than a single PB2000 would, and dual PB3000's will add about another +6dB to the low-frequencies, above what a single one would add. I suspect that some of the boominess you heard was from a single sub, operating in a larger space, and there may have been some setting issues involved too.

As for whether you will like sealed or ported better, I repeat that the best way to determine that is to buy a ported sub with a sealed mode, and test it both ways. If you like ported better, you keep it and get another identical one. If you like sealed better, I would return it and get two identical sealed subs. Of course, you could keep the ported sub and run it in sealed mode, but that doesn't seem as cost-effective to me. SVS will work with you, whatever you decide.

The key point, though, is that you won't be able to decide this on an abstract level. If we were good at doing that, we wouldn't have to exchange and upgrade our subs as much as we do on these threads. You really need to test the ported/sealed option, in your own room, to decide what you like better. And, your final choice may involve some sort of compromise, where one priority emerges as more important than a competing one. That is another reason why abstract discussions, like this one, can only take you so far.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks again. I will give those sections of the guide a read. I hate that it’s so room dependent on what happens with any particular sub or speakers! I’m sure most feel the same way though. Sounds like physical trial and error maybe the only way to eliminate questions.

I was going the route of PC4000’s and found one for sell close by for $1150 only 4 months old. I had the wife on board with PC2000’s. Even made a mock up of the pc2000 to exact size. Then she found out the pc4000 was even taller and I got shut down &#x1f612;. Could be worse, at least she’s ok with the other options.
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My primary use will be HT. Some music. I have done extensive reading on the subject trying to gather my on conclusion on what would fit me best. Unfortunately the has proven to be harder than expected due to everyone’s individual opinions on what works best for given scenarios.
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Your answer/decision is and should be based on which product sounds best to you in your environment. If you’re located in the U.S., SVS’s Bill Of Rights affords you the opportunity to do just that!
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What you choose to do then, depends on what you discover.
You've obviously done all the necessary homework/research to help answer your inquiries. And Mike has provided excellent technical information and explanations with even more detail available in his "guide." The last and most critical/important aspect of your research is knowledge gained from personal experience. It is only through listening to these subs in your own home with your favorite source material under your room's physical and acoustic characteristics that you will discover what you like, prefer, and performs best for you! That's the primary reason Mike and I highly suggests auditioning these subs utilizing SVS's trial offer. Good luck with your decision!
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Well update time on my broken pb16 amp (3 failures )
Svs warranty as usual perfect. Emailed again the company here in australia that deal with svs problems. They apologised for my bad luck with the amps and sent a new one out straight away they mentioned this a new batch and improved and should cause no problems.
With this one I plan to run on auto on Im sure I read that svs recommend that as before I was turning off the amp every night. Hopefully Il be operational again soon.
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post #32808 of 33538 Old 03-19-2020, 07:28 AM
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Well update time on my broken pb16 amp (3 failures )
Svs warranty as usual perfect. Emailed again the company here in australia that deal with svs problems. They apologised for my bad luck with the amps and sent a new one out straight away they mentioned this a new batch and improved and should cause no problems.
With this one I plan to run on auto on Im sure I read that svs recommend that as before I was turning off the amp every night. Hopefully Il be operational again soon.
Hi,

3 Amp failures is indeed a stream of bad luck, but it can happen with any other company. Had one Amp failure with another brand, and like SVS that always take care of there customer. I also receive a perfect CS, and only a few of them do that. SVS been of them.

I have been using the Auto On feature for years, without any issues.


Darth

Last edited by darthray; 03-19-2020 at 07:36 AM.
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I have been using the Auto On feature for years, without any issues.

Same here, and it has worked flawlessly!
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Thanks Mike - exactly correct and what I meant.

The easiest way to do this is as follows:

  • Configure the AVR for a single subwoofer.
  • Disable Audyssey completely.
  • Sweep sub #1 (sub #2 off) with phase to 0.
  • Sweep sub #2 (sub #1 off) with phase to 0.
  • Overlay both curves in REW and level match them to the extent possible.
  • Then sweep subs 1+2 with phase to 0.
  • Then sweep subs 1+2 with the phase adjusted on the closer sub in 15 degree increments.
  • You'll likely notice a phase setting where both subs have a smoother FR with less phase cancellation. You can hone-in further as needed within that 15 degree window to get the exact best phase value.
  • Then re-run Audyssey, making sure the combined level of both subs doesn't exceed about 77-78 dB (the green zone in XT32 SPL meter).
  • Then re-sweep with REW to assess how XT32 improved the FR.
[/QUOTE]
@Ed Mullen so I just recieved my PB4000 and am going to attempt to pair it with my PB16 ultra per your instructions. But just one more quick question, when you say configure my avr dor single subwoofer, do you mean using a Y splitter and having both subs connected to a single sub preout? Just wanted to clarify this. Thank you very much.
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post #32811 of 33538 Old 03-20-2020, 05:20 AM
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@Ed Mullen so I just recieved my PB4000 and am going to attempt to pair it with my PB16 ultra per your instructions. But just one more quick question, when you say configure my avr dor single subwoofer, do you mean using a Y splitter and having both subs connected to a single sub preout? Just wanted to clarify this. Thank you very much.
That is exactly correct. The AVR and XT32 cannot know there are two subs in the system - otherwise it will attempt to do level matching and time alignment on each of them.

The point of the exercise is to compare both methods and see which one measures better. I don't have a strong preference for one method over the other - the measurements will show you which is best.

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@Ed Mullen so I just recieved my PB4000 and am going to attempt to pair it with my PB16 ultra per your instructions. But just one more quick question, when you say configure my avr dor single subwoofer, do you mean using a Y splitter and having both subs connected to a single sub preout? Just wanted to clarify this. Thank you very much.
That is exactly correct. The AVR and XT32 cannot know there are two subs in the system - otherwise it will attempt to do level matching and time alignment on each of them.

The point of the exercise is to compare both methods and see which one measures better. I don't have a strong preference for one method over the other - the measurements will show you which is best.
Great! Thank you @Ed Mullen for all your help, very much appreciated. I will be setting up my new PB4000 with my PB16 Saturday night and I'll post the results I get to see what you guys think.
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post #32813 of 33538 Old 03-22-2020, 12:02 PM
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What can adding a 3rd sub do?

So I finally added a 3rd SB2000 to my setup, after considering the SB3000 and deciding to stick with identical subs (thanks Mike for your guidance!). I had a vertical null at 55 Hz that bothered me, and a bump from 25-50Hz that I couldn't get rid of - it was there with either sub on it's own, and I tried moving them, phase, etc. This is a multipurpose room, so room treatments were not an option. For reference my room is sealed, 2700 cu ft, carpeted on suspended wood floor above a 3 car garage. First sub is on the front wall, ~1/4 distance from the right corner. 2nd sub is on the left wall, ~1/4 distance from the front wall. 3rd sub is on the right wall, ~3/4 distance from the front wall. MLP is roughly centered in the room (yeah not ideal, but WAF dictated that). I run small sats so xvr is 120 Hz. All subs sit on Soundpath isolation feet.

Triple subs are a bit trickier than duals, but I followed Mike's guide and meak81's post above and it only took about an hour to dial in. To remove that vertical null I raised the 3rd sub 2 feet off the floor. I played with phases but all three at zero worked about as well as one being 30 or 60 (180 was bad) so I just left them all zero. Here's how they compare with my volume set at 45 (Sony - this is maybe 10 higher than I would play a movie):

Click image for larger version

Name:	Dual SB2000 versus triple SB2000 - 90 dB base.jpg
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ID:	2700674

So my vertical null is gone, and that 25-50 Hz bump has been mostly tamed, but I have new smaller nulls from 70-80 Hz. Maybe I'll play with those later. Then I did a max spl test, bumping up the volume in 5 increments until near max on the AVR, then tweaking the sub gains until I had low freq compression on the graphs. Here's how the triple compares to the dual - it's about 4 dB gain, less as you go up in freq as the subs are all ~12ft apart. That about works out with the theoretical 3.6 dB one should get going from 2 to 3 subs. Gotta love that room gain! The SB2000 may not be very powerful, but it has a super gentle rolloff and can really take advantage of room gain.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Dual SB2000 versus triple SB2000 - max spl.jpg
Views:	59
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ID:	2700676

Can't wait to re-watch some movies with sub-20Hz LFE. Now if only these were SB16 Ultras...
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post #32814 of 33538 Old 03-22-2020, 08:11 PM
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Highly recommend visiting and reviewing the wealth of information in the following thread. Although the “guide” is comprehensive and can seem to be initially intimidating...take your time and seek the information you currently need/want...i.e. Section VIII-A. Then post any clarifying questions you may have.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html
thanks i went with sb-4000 and god so much i am enjoying
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post #32815 of 33538 Old 03-23-2020, 06:44 AM
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So here are some measurements I took and now I need help seeing which one would be best to use. I followed the steps that @Ed Mullen gave me and these are my results so far. I have my subs connected through my sub pre out using a Y splitter and I haven't rerun audyssey yet, I wanted to see what you guys think first and if I am even doing it correctly lol. My sub placement is the best response I can achieve, I tried measuring in many other locations and where I have them is the best placement in my area. So please any more advice is greatly appreciated. Edit... the 6th picture is @105 degree phase, looks like I forgot to put it on the snap shot.
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post #32816 of 33538 Old 03-23-2020, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by meak81 View Post
So here are some measurements I took and now I need help seeing which one would be best to use. I followed the steps that @Ed Mullen gave me and these are my results so far. I have my subs connected through my sub pre out using a Y splitter and I haven't rerun audyssey yet, I wanted to see what you guys think first and if I am even doing it correctly lol. My sub placement is the best response I can achieve, I tried measuring in many other locations and where I have them is the best placement in my area. So please any more advice is greatly appreciated.
What channel of the AVR are you processing the REW signal through?

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post #32817 of 33538 Old 03-23-2020, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meak81 View Post
So here are some measurements I took and now I need help seeing which one would be best to use. I followed the steps that @Ed Mullen gave me and these are my results so far. I have my subs connected through my sub pre out using a Y splitter and I haven't rerun audyssey yet, I wanted to see what you guys think first and if I am even doing it correctly lol. My sub placement is the best response I can achieve, I tried measuring in many other locations and where I have them is the best placement in my area. So please any more advice is greatly appreciated.
What channel of the AVR are you processing the REW signal through?
I am using Java, I set the crossover at 250Hz and unplugged my left main so it would only measure the subs. I believe that is what you meant, if not I apologize I am still trying to learn how to properly use REW. Is it better to use Asio for REW measurements? @Ed Mullen

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post #32818 of 33538 Old 03-23-2020, 07:38 AM
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One of your graphs has no phase degree listed.

Also, my preference is 15 degree increments - 15/30/45/60/75/90/105/120/135/150/165/180.

With that said, it's pretty clear your sweet spot will be somewhere between 0-90 degrees, so focus on that region and get more granular as needed.

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post #32819 of 33538 Old 03-23-2020, 07:51 AM
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One of your graphs has no phase degree listed.

Also, my preference is 15 degree increments - 15/30/45/60/75/90/105/120/135/150/165/180.

With that said, it's pretty clear your sweet spot will be somewhere between 0-90 degrees, so focus on that region and get more granular as needed.
Yeah the graph with no phase degree listed is supposed to say 105 degree phase. Thanks @Ed Mullen , one more question though.. how can I properly level match the subs? My pb16 ultra is set at V-15 which gave me a trim level of -11db in my avr through audyssey. Should I put my new PB4000 at the same level as my PB16?
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post #32820 of 33538 Old 03-23-2020, 08:05 AM
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Yeah the graph with no phase degree listed is supposed to say 105 degree phase. Thanks @Ed Mullen , one more question though.. how can I properly level match the subs? My pb16 ultra is set at V-15 which gave me a trim level of -11db in my avr through audyssey. Should I put my new PB4000 at the same level as my PB16?
There are two goals here - level match both subs AND make the combined SPL within the trim range of the AVR when you run Audyssey.

Since we already have a known baseline for the PB16U i.e., -15 sub results in -11 trim, let's try this:

  • Set the PB16U volume to -22.
  • Using REW and a calibrated UMIK-1 mic, generate band-limited pink noise and measure the unweighted SPL and note that value.
  • Then change to the PB4K and send it the same signal - adjusting the volume on the PB4K until it reads the same SPL as the PB16U.
  • Then run the individual FR sweeps for both subs.
  • Then run the combined FR sweeps for both subs at 0, 15, 30, 45, 60, 75, 90, 105.
  • Whichever value looks best - get more granular and hone in on the best phase setting.
  • Then run Audyssey and the combined trim should hopefully come back around -10.

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