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post #18661 of 31350 Old 11-13-2014, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
The SVS AS-EQ1 is basically a DSP with Audissey MultEQ XT32 applied on a single channel if I remember correctly. So it's automated, set and forget. The MiniDSP is more flexible but correcting the FR is with it is much more involved (taking REW measurements, computing correction filters, uploading them to the MiniDSP vs just pressing the button).
The SVS AS-EQ1 support mono in -> mono out, stereo in -> mono out and stereo in -> stereo out. It only lowers peaks. It doesn't raise dips.
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post #18662 of 31350 Old 11-13-2014, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
But this is not the case in general: you may create a *bump* between the crossover and the roll-off of your speakers.
This is why I never thought of doing anything but setting speakers to small and sticking with the THX recommended x/o of 80 Hz previously. Now that I see the REW result, there doesn't appear to be any peak as a result, in fact much the opposite. The 156 Hz peak I'm fairly certain is because of the two mains being 7 1/2' apart and was always there.

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Another issue with double bass is the power budget and the limits of the setup. One of the benefit of having the sub is relieving the amp's need to power the mains at low frequencies (which is very power hungry). Running double bass negates that benefit. This also means that raising the volume, you may hit your amp's (or main speakers') limits before you hit the limits of your sub, potentially leading to unwanted distortion even though the subwoofer would be capable of higher clean output.

These issues are not necessarily deal breakers but it's important to be aware of them.
I came home this morning and started listening with the fronts set as full band/double bass, which I've never done before. It certainly sounds good and I'm going to try to compare as best I can between the two options. My perception is that the bass response has smoothed out even more across the listening area, beyond the addition of the second sub alone. I'll see what happens over time but doubt I'll tax the AVR's upper power limit based on my listening habits, though time will tell. I'll see what happens with movie soundtracks but isn't most of that high impact bass fed directly to the subs through the LFE (.1) channel anyway?

I was seriously thinking about getting a third sub but I'm going to play around with this for awhile and decide if that's really necessary. I have yet to test FR beyond my MLP and would like to do that at some point around the listening area with these various combos and see how well my ears and the objective data correlate.

I was pretty comfortable following the usual advice for a long time but now believe I've seen improvement objectively and subjectively deviating from the "prohibition" of first utilizing two different subs together and now employing the fronts as full band with double bass. I was just surprised that something I have read countless times not to do is apparently working so well.

I really appreciate your comments!

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post #18663 of 31350 Old 11-13-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post



It is true that using double bass may help you smooth out your frequency response, in the same way as using multiple subs will do.

Using double bass results in twice the output in the frequency band in which the mains and the sub overlap. In your case (and presumably @Kini62 's too) this doesn't seem to be a problem as you're filling out a dip in the frequency response, leading to a flatter overall response. But this is not the case in general: you may create a *bump* between the crossover and the roll-off of your speakers.



Another issue with double bass is the power budget and the limits of the setup. One of the benefit of having the sub is relieving the amp's need to power the mains at low frequencies (which is very power hungry). Running double bass negates that benefit. This also means that raising the volume, you may hit your amp's (or main speakers') limits before you hit the limits of your sub, potentially leading to unwanted distortion even though the subwoofer would be capable of higher clean output.

These issues are not necessarily deal breakers but it's important to be aware of them.
Highly unlikely it will be twice the output in the overlapped range. That would be quite an accomplishment if I doubled what my two subs can do over that range with a 45 watt/channel amp and 4 6.5" drivers.

Maybe I have a dip in response in that area but I don't think I do. It still sounds good with a crossover but it sounds a little better without.

As for running out of power at my movie listening level of 15-12db I don't.

Only when I was testing my sub with some YouTube stuff above -10 did I start to notice what sounded like some strain and by -5 it was there for sure. But that is well above what I listen at so I'm good with power.

Every room is different, every set of ears is different. Just do what sounds or works best for you. There is no one standard that works for everyone.
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post #18664 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gurba View Post
The SVS AS-EQ1 support mono in -> mono out, stereo in -> mono out and stereo in -> stereo out. It only lowers peaks. It doesn't raise dips.
Thanks for the precision! Do you know if it will act on the full band? E.g. could you use it as a room correction DSP for a 2.0 setup? I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that it runs Audyssey MultEQ XT32.

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I'll see what happens with movie soundtracks but isn't most of that high impact bass fed directly to the subs through the LFE (.1) channel anyway?
Yes, the LFE track has more impact because it's played back with a 10 dB boost (meaning the peaks can be 10 dB SPL higher than for other channels). That being said there is no restriction on bass content for other channels and bass is indeed very present there as well.

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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
Highly unlikely it will be twice the output in the overlapped range. That would be quite an accomplishment if I doubled what my two subs can do over that range with a 45 watt/channel amp and 4 6.5" drivers.
When you listen below the limits of your amp+speakers, with double bass enabled, the same signal is played by the mains and the sub so yes, it could theoretically lead to up to +6 dB in the overlap band. Of course as you raise the volume, you will hit the amp and speakers' limits first.

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Maybe I have a dip in response in that area but I don't think I do.
Sometimes a bump *does* sound good

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Only when I was testing my sub with some YouTube stuff above -10 did I start to notice what sounded like some strain and by -5 it was there for sure. But that is well above what I listen at so I'm good with power.
Yeah music is often mixed at a higher level than movie tracks.

I bet the strain did come from your mains? If so this probably means you could push higher by turning double bass off.

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Every room is different, every set of ears is different. Just do what sounds or works best for you. There is no one standard that works for everyone.
Agreed and I'm not saying double bass is necessarily bad. After all the results are right there in @DocCasualty 's measurements. But as I said before, you've got to be aware of the limitations this entails.
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post #18665 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post

I bet the strain did come from your mains? If so this probably means you could push higher by turning double bass off.
But I don't want to push it higher. At -10 it's already louder than I'm willing to sit and listen to. I'd like to keep my hearing or what's left of it for a little while longer.

Maybe if I had a treated room and something like JTRs or Seaton Catalyst I'd be able to listen louder more comfortably but I'd still end up with hearing loss.

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post #18666 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
But I don't want to push it higher. At -10 it's already louder than I'm willing to sit and listen to. I'd like to keep my hearing or what's left of it for a little while longer.

Maybe if I had a treated room and something like JTRs or Seaton Catalyst I'd be able to listen louder more comfortably but I'd still end up with hearing loss.
Then everything is alright

I have to admit, for movies -10 dB is about the level I'd like to be ideally (normally with kids sleeping I rarely go past -25 dB). Only once did I watch a movie at -6 dB from ref and it was a bit to much but awesome at the same time. That being said, the bass really wasn't a problem -- the highs (crashing sounds in particular) were the ones that were the hardest to take.

That's why many people prefer theirs subs hot. I myself prefer a house curve that begins to climb way under my crossover so only special effects are enhanced. I can take more rumbles and it doesn't feel unbalanced at all.

You are right though -- perhaps with a treated room and top notch speakers I could stand louder sounds. That being said, you likely won't get hearing damage listening to a movie at reference level -- the peaks are very brief and it's sustained high levels that are the most damaging. For music, well I like the occasionally loud tune but I've never listened very loud for an entire evening.

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post #18667 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Thanks for the precision! Do you know if it will act on the full band? E.g. could you use it as a room correction DSP for a 2.0 setup? I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that it runs Audyssey MultEQ XT32.
It's MultiEQ XT and it corrects the subs only.


It has twice the filter resolution of most consumer MultEQ XT systems from the time it was launched. How it compares With the newest Audessey AVRs I don't know. I got one because I own a Yamaha AVR.
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post #18668 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 01:09 PM
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So i just got a sb-2000 about 2 weeks ago. Coming from a lower end polk i am blown away. Music is sounding better than ever and it even handles movies pretty good too. Now my issue is my setup is in a fairly small room and im in the market for a house now. Would it be worth it to upgrade to the pb-2000 for a 100bucks? Before this sub i wouldve said i was 80/20 music/movies but now i think it may be about dead even, even though long term i could see myself replaying cds more so than movies. I know for movies its a significant upgrade but i also dont want to downgrade music quality by going ported. What do you guys think is the better sub in general.
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post #18669 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Bruce View Post
So i just got a sb-2000 about 2 weeks ago. Coming from a lower end polk i am blown away. Music is sounding better than ever and it even handles movies pretty good too. Now my issue is my setup is in a fairly small room and im in the market for a house now. Would it be worth it to upgrade to the pb-2000 for a 100bucks? Before this sub i wouldve said i was 80/20 music/movies but now i think it may be about dead even, even though long term i could see myself replaying cds more so than movies. I know for movies its a significant upgrade but i also dont want to downgrade music quality by going ported. What do you guys think is the better sub in general.
Its a misconception that ported is bad for music. Only stay with sealed if you want to take advantage of room gain and stay in a fairly small room.
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post #18670 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 02:18 PM
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Its a misconception that ported is bad for music. Only stay with sealed if you want to take advantage of room gain and stay in a fairly small room.
Good advice here. An 18 Hz port tune is not going to affect 40 Hz+ music notes. The PB2000 will sound 100% just as good on music as the SB2000, and demolish it for output on movies(four times the output around tune). Sealed subs don't have a sound quality advantage for music. They have two advantages: smaller and cheaper. But less output for movies.
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post #18671 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 04:13 PM
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Well you gentlemen have certainly helped me decide on which route to go. The wife has seen side by side pictures and is ok with the pb-2000. Still refuses to let me get a cylinder but i can live with that lol. I appreciate the help and clearing up the sealed vs ported myth
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post #18672 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 04:49 PM
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Well you gentlemen have certainly helped me decide on which route to go. The wife has seen side by side pictures and is ok with the pb-2000. Still refuses to let me get a cylinder but i can live with that lol. I appreciate the help and clearing up the sealed vs ported myth
You need to tell us little more, what is your room size? , what speakers do you have and what you will using for system the most?

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post #18673 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 05:34 PM
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You need to tell us little more, what is your room size? , what speakers do you have and what you will using for system the most?
well im not basing it off of current room size as im about to buy a house. I more than likely would be using this with either 5 sm45s or 5 sm65s. My main concern was that the ported version wouldnt handle music as well as the sealed.
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post #18674 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 05:43 PM
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Probably a long shot, but does anyone have an old SCS-02 or SCS-02M to sell?

I currently have 2 SBS-01 for rears, 2 SCS-02M for surrounds, 2 SCS-01M for mains, and an SCS-01 center. I prefer the brightness of the SCS-02, but putting my mains up front doesn't blend with the center as well, so I'm wanting an SCS-02 center.
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post #18675 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 05:56 PM
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well im not basing it off of current room size as im about to buy a house. I more than likely would be using this with either 5 sm45s or 5 sm65s. My main concern was that the ported version wouldnt handle music as well as the sealed.
Considering the SM55s too? They seem like a nice compromise between the 45s and the 65s :-)

I owned a pair of refurbished SM45s for a year and a half - nice speakers.

Regardless, the PB2000 will compliment the Def Techs nicely ... please keep us posted :-)

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post #18676 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 05:58 PM
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well im not basing it off of current room size as im about to buy a house. I more than likely would be using this with either 5 sm45s or 5 sm65s. My main concern was that the ported version wouldnt handle music as well as the sealed.
Well I have cylinder Pluses and they are ported and they handle music just perfect to my ears so as movies. For Definitive Technology SM65 Bookshelf Speaker new PC-2000 is like made for design will look great together. I will get ported unless you can get sb13-Ultra it is how I'm looking it. It is all about your budget. You can try them both together, buy one ported one sealed play with them and keep one you like more and send second back with free shipping and 45 days free playing time there is no risk at all. Only risk to have 2 subs home together is you want to keep them both and it is more $$$ from your packet, I know what I'm talking about in this case for sure. I know guys who have SB13-Ultra and they love it so as guys who have Pluses or Utras ported in any of those cases there is no complains from nobody. You really can't go wrong with SVS.

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post #18677 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 06:23 PM
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SB-2000 showed up today. No time to play with it yet, never got home until late tonight, but just a quick connect next to the PB-2000 and there is no question, the PB is much better.


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post #18678 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 06:37 PM
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SB-2000 showed up today. No time to play with it yet, never got home until late tonight, but just a quick connect next to the PB-2000 and there is no question, the PB is much better.



Please paint that frame Flat black !!!!!



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post #18679 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 07:29 PM
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nope, no way. Entire room is pine, painting pine would look super cheap, frame does nothing to harm picture or "perceived picture" either.
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post #18680 of 31350 Old 11-14-2014, 10:43 PM
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nope, no way. Entire room is pine, painting pine would look super cheap, frame does nothing to harm picture or "perceived picture" either.
Looks great and it match baseboards and probably rest of the room.

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post #18681 of 31350 Old 11-16-2014, 08:29 PM
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OK Kids, I'm finally replacing my monster PB12 Ultra/2 with dual PC 12 pluses. Besides being really old, the Ultra/2 no longer fits in my room properly (new furniture and other added stuff). I am going to place the dual cylinders along the front wall (either in the corners to inside the mains).

Since the Ultra/2 was overkill for my smallish room (18x22x12) I am guessing the dual pluses will give me the same skull cracking bass I am used to.
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post #18682 of 31350 Old 11-16-2014, 08:29 PM
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OK Kids, I'm finally replacing my monster PB12 Ultra/2 with dual PC 12 pluses. Besides being really old, the Ultra/2 no longer fits in my room properly (new furniture and other added stuff). I am going to place the dual cylinders along the front wall (either in the corners to inside the mains).

Since the Ultra/2 was overkill for my smallish room (18x22x12) I am guessing the dual pluses will give me the same skull cracking bass I am used to.
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post #18683 of 31350 Old 11-16-2014, 08:37 PM
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OK Kids, I'm finally replacing my monster PB12 Ultra/2 with dual PC 12 pluses. Besides being really old, the Ultra/2 no longer fits in my room properly (new furniture and other added stuff). I am going to place the dual cylinders along the front wall (either in the corners to inside the mains).

Since the Ultra/2 was overkill for my smallish room (18x22x12) I am guessing the dual pluses will give me the same skull cracking bass I am used to.
Pretty much.
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post #18684 of 31350 Old 11-16-2014, 08:37 PM
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OK Kids, I'm finally replacing my monster PB12 Ultra/2 with dual PC 12 pluses. Besides being really old, the Ultra/2 no longer fits in my room properly (new furniture and other added stuff). I am going to place the dual cylinders along the front wall (either in the corners to inside the mains).

Since the Ultra/2 was overkill for my smallish room (18x22x12) I am guessing the dual pluses will give me the same skull cracking bass I am used to.
Pretty much.
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post #18685 of 31350 Old 11-17-2014, 10:14 AM
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So comparing the SB-2000 to the PB-2000, and using the least most scientific means possible.....I have come to the grand conclusion that that PB is better


duh


Dead obvious comments aside, the PB hits lower, louder, just a generally more impressive sub. Do not get me wrong, the SB is no slouch for its size. I do like it, I'll keep it (thankfully this one showed up with zero damage ). It does suffer from the same problem...ahem, I mean "design" the PB does in that you really have the crank the volume up on bust to get it where you want.


I think both are good subs for the money. I don't think either is going to blow away any decent $2000 sub like the reviewers of the world claim. But dollar for dollar you can't go wrong with either. Just figure out what you need by room size.


How's that for extremely vague and probably painfully obvious?


Edit: Those worried about the Sealed sub box not being musical - nonsense.
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post #18686 of 31350 Old 11-17-2014, 10:45 AM
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So comparing the SB-2000 to the PB-2000, and using the least most scientific means possible.....I have come to the grand conclusion that that PB is better


duh


Dead obvious comments aside, the PB hits lower, louder, just a generally more impressive sub. Do not get me wrong, the SB is no slouch for its size. I do like it, I'll keep it (thankfully this one showed up with zero damage ). It does suffer from the same problem...ahem, I mean "design" the PB does in that you really have the crank the volume up on bust to get it where you want.


I think both are good subs for the money. I don't think either is going to blow away any decent $2000 sub like the reviewers of the world claim. But dollar for dollar you can't go wrong with either. Just figure out what you need by room size.


How's that for extremely vague and probably painfully obvious?


Edit: Those worried about the Sealed sub box not being musical - nonsense.
RE:Edit; It's actually the other way around.
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post #18687 of 31350 Old 11-17-2014, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post
RE:Edit; It's actually the other way around.

regardless, I still say nonsense. I've seen people concerned with one or the other being "musical" and I have zero issues with either one.
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post #18688 of 31350 Old 11-17-2014, 11:42 AM
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regardless, I still say nonsense. I've seen people concerned with one or the other being "musical" and I have zero issues with either one.
I'm right along with you. I have a PC13-Ultra that plays music well, to my ears.
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post #18689 of 31350 Old 11-17-2014, 12:53 PM
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I'm right along with you. I have a PC13-Ultra that plays music well, to my ears.
What tuning do you use?

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, DUAL PSA XS30SE's, ATV4K, 75X940E, UBPX700
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post #18690 of 31350 Old 11-17-2014, 01:04 PM
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What tuning do you use?
20Hz. I had port chuffing with the Server Scene with 16Hz and almost none with 20Hz. I feel 20Hz allows the sub maximum ability to move air. With the Irene Scene, I felt the house vibrating. That's at 5Hz or so.
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