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post #23671 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
Hey guys I have really appreciated all the input to my quest for a better dual sub combination than my dual Energy S12.3 subs.
I was really interested in the PC-2000 for an upgrade because it would only be a $1500 upgrade for duals, compared to
$2400 for dual PC12 +

I sent an email out to SVS and Ed Mullen actually responded to my email, that was great. He said the PC-2000 would
be a significant upgrade with almost an entire octave of deep extension. He said the S12.3 rolls off steeply at 30hz.
The PC-2000 would also have a flatter frequency response in the mid-bass region. Is this something I am going to hear and feel
at a normal listening position, or will I only notice this at louder volumes as far as the one octave of deeper extension?

From the PC12 + and Ultra owners I got good reviews and it seemed like that was the way to go. There would be no doubt
I would have a really good Noticable upgrade for now and in the future. With that said would the PC-2000 still be a good upgrade over what I have now
with an 1848 cubic foot room and also if my room in the future was around 4000 cubic feet. With an $800 difference between dual 2000's and the dual PC12 +
what would I be getting for that money? I have just started looking and appreciating what the impact of subs can do. I appreciate the communities tolerance for my questions.
The 2000's would be fine for 1900 cu ft but if your going 4000 later on why not just future proof your investment if budget allows. I would go for the Pluses or if possible remove all the what ifs and get the Ultras.
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post #23672 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 05:36 AM
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So yesterday I was doing some experimenting with my dual PB-1000s as I wait for parts to build dual DIY 18" Martys. Damn the PB-1000s can really pump out a lot if you ask them to. I went outside and the window was shaking pretty damn good while playing Future's Purple Rain album . I only had the dial at -6 and subs +6 on the trim. Moving them to the corners from the middle of the room really improved things a lot. I don't know if I'll be able to part with them after I build my DIY subs!

I think +6 on the trim is too much most of the time the more I listen unless it's hip-hop. Not sure how some bass heads listen +10 or more..
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post #23673 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 06:08 AM
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So yesterday I was doing some experimenting with my dual PB-1000s as I wait for parts to build dual DIY 18" Martys. Damn the PB-1000s can really pump out a lot if you ask them to. I went outside and the window was shaking pretty damn good while playing Future's Purple Rain album . I only had the dial at -6 and subs +6 on the trim. Moving them to the corners from the middle of the room really improved things a lot. I don't know if I'll be able to part with them after I build my DIY subs!

I think +6 on the trim is too much most of the time the more I listen unless it's hip-hop. Not sure how some bass heads listen +10 or more..

Hi,

I don't really think of myself as a bass head (certainly not compared to many on the Forum ), but I do boost my sub trims by +10, or more--usually about +12. But I only do it for movies. I don't want, or need, a lot of extra bass for music, although some people perhaps boost a lot for everything.

I think there are two factors in play regarding the bass boost for movies. First, is your master volume. Mine is normally not more than -14 MV, and may be 2 or 3db less, depending on the movie. Second, is the question of how much mid-bass and infrasonic bass you want to hear/feel. The chest thump in mid-bass is pretty cool, and so is some of the ultra-low bass in movies like "Edge of Tomorrow", "War of the Worlds", etc. If you are using Audyssey with DEQ, that can also be a factor, as that boosts the bass too. I use Audyssey, but not DEQ.

But the really low bass requires a lot of SPL to hear and feel, and unless you are listening at near Reference levels, which is just too loud for me, you need to crank your sub trim a lot to get that same low bass effect. I suspect that if you are building DIY subs, and also considering keeping your PB-1000's, you may end up being a bass head yourself.

Regards,
Mike
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post #23674 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 06:12 AM
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Yeah I use DEQ. I haven't really done much side by side comparison of on v.s off but I guess I've just been going off most around here keeping it on. How does DEQ affect music since that's much more of a constant sound?
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post #23675 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
Hey guys I have really appreciated all the input to my quest for a better dual sub combination than my dual Energy S12.3 subs.
I was really interested in the PC-2000 for an upgrade because it would only be a $1500 upgrade for duals, compared to
$2400 for dual PC12 +

I sent an email out to SVS and Ed Mullen actually responded to my email, that was great. He said the PC-2000 would
be a significant upgrade with almost an entire octave of deep extension. He said the S12.3 rolls off steeply at 30hz.
The PC-2000 would also have a flatter frequency response in the mid-bass region. Is this something I am going to hear and feel
at a normal listening position, or will I only notice this at louder volumes as far as the one octave of deeper extension?

From the PC12 + and Ultra owners I got good reviews and it seemed like that was the way to go. There would be no doubt
I would have a really good Noticable upgrade for now and in the future. With that said would the PC-2000 still be a good upgrade over what I have now
with an 1848 cubic foot room and also if my room in the future was around 4000 cubic feet. With an $800 difference between dual 2000's and the dual PC12 +
what would I be getting for that money? I have just started looking and appreciating what the impact of subs can do. I appreciate the communities tolerance for my questions.
As others have noted, you can always try them out and go another direction if you arent happy with the 2000.

What I will say is I am a previous S12.3 owner and am now running dual PC-2000s in my dedicated room (~2300 cu ft). These have way more headroom than I will probably ever need and, Ed is correct, offer much better extension down low without drastic rolloff. Once you get them configured properly, these things hit hard and never break a sweat. I can only imagine what dual pluses or ultras would be like, but the pc-2000s fully pressurize my room and offer a tremendous value.

The key is dual to get the best response from your room...other than that, it's just how much kick in the pants you are willing to pay for.

Either way, enjoy!!! You will love them.

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post #23676 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 07:21 AM
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Yeah I use DEQ. I haven't really done much side by side comparison of on v.s off but I guess I've just been going off most around here keeping it on. How does DEQ affect music since that's much more of a constant sound?

That's a good question since DEQ was really designed for movies played at below Reference volumes on home theater systems. As you probably know, DEQ is a separate software program, or app, which is independent of the filters that Audyssey sets to EQ your speakers.

According to what I have read, and seen, most people prefer to watch movies at about -10 to -20 MV, and DEQ tries to maintain tonal balance at those volumes, and lower, by boosting the bass and treble slightly, while leaving the mid-range (where our hearing is most acute) untouched. In theory, we will then hear the movie soundtrack the way the film mixer intended for us to hear it, even if we listen at volumes well below Reference. As you note, music doesn't have a Reference to start with, and may not have as wide a dynamic range, so it was always a bit of a kludge for that.

DEQ adds about 1db of boost for every 5db below Reference. So, at -15 MV, DEQ would add 3db of both treble and bass boost. At -20 MV, it would add 4db, and so on. This is one reason dialogue can become harder to hear at lower volumes with DEQ engaged. Because DEQ is boosting everything except the mid-range where dialogue is found.

If you are listening at -15, for instance, and using +6 sub trim, you are actually at +9 compared to where Audyssey set your subs relative to Reference. Not so far from my +12 without DEQ.

DEQ also boosts the surrounds by about that same 1db per 5db below Reference. And this is one of the main complaints you may hear about DEQ. Some people love the surround boost, and some don't. What I found was that a lot of movies and TV shows already have pretty loud surround effects. With some of them, DEQ made the surrounds overwhelming for me, particularly since I have a 7.1 system, and it was boosting 4 of my 7 speakers.

I never liked DEQ at all for music, although I did use it off-and-on for movies for a couple of years. But DEQ boosts the bass not only for the subs, but for all of the channels. I eventually got to the point where I found it better to just apply my own sub boost to movies and leave my music pretty much the way it was recorded, just increasing or decreasing the MV, as I needed to, or using the tone controls (which are disabled when DEQ is engaged) to make slight adjustments.

But all of this is purely a matter of personal preference, and I respect other viewpoints on the use of DEQ. Some people I know use it for everything and love it. YMMV! Incidentally, if you like DEQ, you might want to experiment a little with the Reference Level Offset feature (RLO) in your AVR as a way to adjust the effect of DEQ. The FAQ, linked below, explains RLO in some detail.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23677 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 08:27 AM
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The FAQ, linked below, explains RLO in some detail.
Link?
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post #23678 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 08:43 AM
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Link?

Sorry, the link in my signature. There are some graphs showing the effects of RLO at various settings in the technical section of the FAQ. That is here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...html#addendum3

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Last edited by mthomas47; 04-19-2016 at 08:47 AM.
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post #23679 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 09:54 AM
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Sorry, the link in my signature. There are some graphs showing the effects of RLO at various settings in the technical section of the FAQ. That is here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...html#addendum3
Ah..thanks. Im using the mobile version of AVS so your signature doesnt show.
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post #23680 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 11:05 AM
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Ah..thanks. Im using the mobile version of AVS so your signature doesnt show.

You are welcome! The mobile version is much better than nothing, but frustrating for me sometimes as I try to navigate.

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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
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post #23681 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 11:39 AM
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But all of this is purely a matter of personal preference, and I respect other viewpoints on the use of DEQ. Some people I know use it for everything and love it. YMMV! Incidentally, if you like DEQ, you might want to experiment a little with the Reference Level Offset feature (RLO) in your AVR as a way to adjust the effect of DEQ. The FAQ, linked below, explains RLO in some detail.
I've gone through the FAQ before but I think it's time for another go through..
I guess I need to dig into a favorite scene at -10 (usual listening for a movie) and see what I prefer. I've already been playing with sub trim level. Everyone's ears are different!

One thing I noticed also after moving my PB-1000s to the corner is my SVS Towers don't sound quite as good for music. I guess they prefer a wide soundstage? They're only 5 Feet apart now. Ah well.. experimenting is fun.
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post #23682 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 12:51 PM
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I've gone through the FAQ before but I think it's time for another go through..
I guess I need to dig into a favorite scene at -10 (usual listening for a movie) and see what I prefer. I've already been playing with sub trim level. Everyone's ears are different!

One thing I noticed also after moving my PB-1000s to the corner is my SVS Towers don't sound quite as good for music. I guess they prefer a wide soundstage? They're only 5 Feet apart now. Ah well.. experimenting is fun.

I think that is a large part of the hobby for me. I love just listening to music, for instance, but I get a lot of pleasure out of tweaking my room, set-up, and system too.

5' of separation does sound pretty close for your fronts. An equilateral triangle with your listening position is the traditional recommendation. But I would go wider before I went narrow, if I could help it. Sometimes the room just won't let you do what you want, but I would probably try to play with that one a little.
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23683 of 31553 Old 04-19-2016, 11:04 PM
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One of my dual sb13ultras started clipping and going into protect mode when I play the opening scene of the Edge of Tomorrow. One was handling it with ease while the other one acted up. I was able to reset and make it work again but same thing happens with that opening bass scene. It is on its way to SVS for a replacement.

Anyone here experienced a faulty Sledge STA-1000D? My sub is less than 2 years old and played very moderate -18 MV.
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One of my dual sb13ultras started clipping and going into protect mode when I play the opening scene of the Edge of Tomorrow. One was handling it with ease while the other one acted up. I was able to reset and make it work again but same thing happens with that opening bass scene. It is on its way to SVS for a replacement.

Anyone here experienced a faulty Sledge STA-1000D? My sub is less than 2 years old and played very moderate -18 MV.
I've seen a few other people in this thread have issues, but the Sledge amps on the whole seem to be a whole lot more reliable then the Bash amps were. I would chalk it up to some bad luck and not stress it.

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My Sledge amp had a problem, but on the input side.
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Made my decision, going with the dual PC12 + over the dual PC-2000. for no other reason than to future proof my system.
I'm in a 1881 cf room, after re-measuring. I should be more than good if I ever step up to a room 4000 cf again. I was offered
a very impressive price for either one BNIB but chose the pluses.
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Ive got some stuff
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post #23687 of 31553 Old 04-20-2016, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
Made my decision, going with the dual PC12 + over the dual PC-2000. for no other reason than to future proof my system.
I'm in a 1881 cf room, after re-measuring. I should be more than good if I ever step up to a room 4000 cf again. I was offered
a very impressive price for either one BNIB but chose the pluses.
Enjoy, they will rock that 1881 cu ft room!

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Made my decision, going with the dual PC12 + over the dual PC-2000. for no other reason than to future proof my system.
I'm in a 1881 cf room, after re-measuring. I should be more than good if I ever step up to a room 4000 cf again. I was offered
a very impressive price for either one BNIB but chose the pluses.
Congrats, you will live them, good choice they are excellent subs!!!
Let us know how you like them!!!

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post #23689 of 31553 Old 04-20-2016, 01:52 PM
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I can't seem to drive my SVS Ultra Towers past -10 with my 7 channel setup (Onkyo 3010). It starts sounding 'harsh'. Is that a case of my amp being over driven or is acoustic treatment a more likely culprit? I currently have none. From what I've gathered the 3010 should be supplying enough power...

(Yes I realize this is the subs thread but there is no real ultra owners thread).
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On these top ported PC12 plus is there a lot of air movement coming out of the top of these?

Ive got some stuff
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@baron2, Mine knocked spider webs off the ceiling. I know I have PC13's. Pluses will do it, too.
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I can't seem to drive my SVS Ultra Towers past -10 with my 7 channel setup (Onkyo 3010). It starts sounding 'harsh'. Is that a case of my amp being over driven or is acoustic treatment a more likely culprit? I currently have none. From what I've gathered the 3010 should be supplying enough power...

(Yes I realize this is the subs thread but there is no real ultra owners thread).

It might depend to some extent on room size and listening distance, but room acoustics are almost certainly the main culprit. Our brains can interpret distortion as loud and unpleasant. So, at lower volumes, if a room has too much mid and high frequency distortion caused by early and late reflections, our brains can kind of ignore it--listening through it. But when we turn the volume up, that same distortion can intensify to the point that we can't really ignore it anymore. We may be able to consciously recognize it as distortion, or it may just sound too loud.

Room treatments would definitely help if you want to listen at higher volumes, and would help with SQ in any event. I have a fair bit of treatment in my room, though, and still don't want to listen above -10 MV, so listening preferences are a factor in all of this too.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23693 of 31553 Old 04-20-2016, 04:52 PM
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Room treatments would definitely help if you want to listen at higher volumes, and would help with SQ in any event. I have a fair bit of treatment in my room, though, and still don't want to listen above -10 MV, so listening preferences are a factor in all of this too.
Sounds good, thanks for the insight. I'm actually building some frames this weekend although today I may have just confused myself by making the mistake of reading some articles from floyd toole. He's not a big fan of blanketing early reflections like Ethan Whiner and most here recommend. I'm doing ceiling+bass traps for sure I guess I'll have to measure and decide for myself how much more than that i'd need.
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post #23694 of 31553 Old 04-20-2016, 05:10 PM
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Sounds good, thanks for the insight. I'm actually building some frames this weekend although today I may have just confused myself by making the mistake of reading some articles from floyd toole. He's not a big fan of blanketing early reflections like Ethan Whiner and most here recommend. I'm doing ceiling+bass traps for sure I guess I'll have to measure and decide for myself how much more than that i'd need.

You are welcome! That's a very controversial topic. I highly respect Floyd Toole, but agree that this is something that you will need to decide for yourself. I am lucky enough not to have to deal with first reflections on the side walls due to my room size and configuration, so in my room, besides bass traps, I just want to take a little of the excess mid and high frequency energy out of the room.

As you know, many believe that side wall reflections can contribute to a sense of spaciousness and overall ambiance. If you do decide that yours are a problem though, then diffusors might be a way to scatter some of the reflections rather than completely attenuating them. I think that where, and how much treatment to add, is very much a trial-and-error process. And your personal listening preferences are definitely a factor in that.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23695 of 31553 Old 04-20-2016, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by AllenA07 View Post
I've seen a few other people in this thread have issues, but the Sledge amps on the whole seem to be a whole lot more reliable then the Bash amps were. I would chalk it up to some bad luck and not stress it.
Its a bummer this happened especially that I am from another part of the world. Good thing I have a relative who left for the US yesterday and she brought the broken amp for the replacement. I don't listen at reference. More of -20 to -18 at main volume. The Sledge amp gave up on the opening scene of Edge of Tomorrow.
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post #23696 of 31553 Old 04-20-2016, 08:43 PM
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On these top ported PC12 plus is there a lot of air movement coming out of the top of these?
I don't know about air movement, I never checked that out...But, my wife placed a nick-knack on top of mine, I told her not to...It ended up on the floor broken

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post #23697 of 31553 Old 04-21-2016, 06:15 AM
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As you know, many believe that side wall reflections can contribute to a sense of spaciousness and overall ambiance. If you do decide that yours are a problem though, then diffusors might be a way to scatter some of the reflections rather than completely attenuating them. I think that where, and how much treatment to add, is very much a trial-and-error process. And your personal listening preferences are definitely a factor in that.
Yeah I have a small, tough room (gotta work with what I've got). It's open on two sides at the rear. I think I need plenty of trapping at the rear and some heavy curtains over the opening. Are diffusers something that measurements can reveal I need v.s absorption for the early reflections? Would I just decide that on experimentation? The main problem I have with diffusers is they're ugly as sin, I think I'd probably end up figuring a way to stretch fabric over an outside frame around a diffuser pattern.
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post #23698 of 31553 Old 04-21-2016, 08:40 AM
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Yeah I have a small, tough room (gotta work with what I've got). It's open on two sides at the rear. I think I need plenty of trapping at the rear and some heavy curtains over the opening. Are diffusers something that measurements can reveal I need v.s absorption for the early reflections? Would I just decide that on experimentation? The main problem I have with diffusers is they're ugly as sin, I think I'd probably end up figuring a way to stretch fabric over an outside frame around a diffuser pattern.

Hi,

I think that diffusers are a little ugly too. I like your idea of putting some fabric on the outside, and according to what I have read, some kind of microfiber would still allow the diffuser to work just fine.

There are different schools of thought on using measurement to determine the need for treatment of early reflections. One school of thought is that you are timing the reflection, and trying to treat anything under about 6ms. (I think that number's right.) My own view is that your ears are the final judge, because everything is a trade-off. It isn't just about distortion, or the measurements could be the final arbiter. I believe that is one of the conclusions that Floyd Toole reached from the listening tests he and Harmon conducted.

So, I don't know if you could draw any definitive conclusions about the use of diffusers via measurement. But I think that you could experiment to find out what really sounds best to you. In my room, I have added treatment very slowly and conservatively, sometimes moving things around a bit and listening as I go. That way is actually a little slow, but also quite sure, and rewarding, because I am listening for subtle nuances in the sound, and I get to hear every incremental improvement. I like that better than just putting up treatment, based on some arbitrary measurement standard, and then wondering why the room sounds too dead, or why the soundstage seems constricted, or whatever.

FWIW, I think that various kinds of music, and particularly music involving acoustic instruments (since most of us have a pretty good idea of what they are supposed to sound like), is a good way to test your room's acoustics, and to find the balance that works best for you.

Regards,
Mike
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post #23699 of 31553 Old 04-21-2016, 09:56 AM
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DEQ adds about 1db of boost for every 5db below Reference. So, at -15 MV, DEQ would add 3db of both treble and bass boost. At -20 MV, it would add 4db, and so on. This is one reason dialogue can become harder to hear at lower volumes with DEQ engaged. Because DEQ is boosting everything except the mid-range where dialogue is found.

I found that DEQ can boost considerably more than that.. I think you'll find it increases boost as frequency descends.

This was taken at -20db and I'd say it's applying around an 8db boost below 30hz.
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post #23700 of 31553 Old 04-21-2016, 10:36 AM
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I found that DEQ can boost considerably more than that.. I think you'll find it increases boost as frequency descends.

This was taken at -20db and I'd say it's applying around an 8db boost below 30hz.
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You could very well be right. The 1db per -5 MV is a nominal ratio across the frequency range, but your graph shows about 5db of boost at 30hz and I would agree that it looks like about 8db at 20Hz. So, thanks for posting that. With your permission, I may share it on the Audyssey thread, for some reactions.

In some respects, if DEQ is boosting even more than that nominal 1db per -5, at frequencies below 30Hz, it makes the need to stay in a negative sub trim, with DEQ employed, even more imperative, because 8db of boost at 20Hz takes a ton of amplifier power compared to 4 or 5db at 30Hz or higher.

Thanks again!

Regards,
Mike

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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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