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post #23701 of 31627 Old 04-21-2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
You could very well be right. The 1db per -5 MV is a nominal ratio across the frequency range, but your graph shows about 5db of boost at 30hz and I would agree that it looks like about 8db at 20Hz. So, thanks for posting that. With your permission, I may share it on the Audyssey thread, for some reactions.

In some respects, if DEQ is boosting even more than that nominal 1db per -5, at frequencies below 30Hz, it makes the need to stay in a negative sub trim, with DEQ employed, even more imperative, because 8db of boost at 20Hz takes a ton of amplifier power compared to 4 or 5db at 30Hz or higher.

Thanks again!

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Mike
Hi, yes feel free to share it.

Also, yes, applying a negative trim is essential regardless of whether you use DEQ as the AVR can still clip the signal when running + trims, many people seem to disregard this but I'd much rather have a higher sub gain with a lower trim, even if it's -10.. as this way you can also apply a decent amount of boost and still be within a negative trim. Doing it the other way round is just asking for trouble in my opinion.

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post #23702 of 31627 Old 04-21-2016, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by paulst View Post
Hi, yes feel free to share it.

Also, yes, applying a negative trim is essential regardless of whether you use DEQ as the AVR can still clip the signal when running + trims, many people seem to disregard this but I'd much rather have a higher sub gain with a lower trim, even if it's -10.. as this way you can also apply a decent amount of boost and still be within a negative trim. Doing it the other way round is just asking for trouble in my opinion.
So you run Audyssey and then apply gain post Audyssey? Do you measure nearfield (I've seen some measure 90db nearfield for gain) and match the subs to desired level or measure from the MLP each sub?
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post #23703 of 31627 Old 04-21-2016, 11:27 AM
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So you run Audyssey and then apply gain post Audyssey? Do you measure nearfield (I've seen some measure 90db nearfield for gain) and match the subs to desired level or measure from the MLP each sub?
Set the gain for each sub at the MLP to read around 78db each, then run Audyssey and get a sub trim of around -8 to -10, after I check with REW and turn the sub trim up by about 5db. I don't use Dynamic EQ by the way..

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post #23704 of 31627 Old 04-21-2016, 01:41 PM
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On these top ported PC12 plus is there a lot of air movement coming out of the top of these?
The grill on mine was loose fitting and while doing some bass tracks off youtube it actually blew off. So yes there CAN be a lot of air coming out the top.

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post #23705 of 31627 Old 04-21-2016, 04:21 PM
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The grill on mine was loose fitting and while doing some bass tracks off youtube it actually blew off. So yes there CAN be a lot of air coming out the top.

The grilles on my PC's are pretty tight fitting, but even with a loose fit, that still sounds like quite an accomplishment. I imagine seeing your grille become a Frisbee got your attention.

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post #23706 of 31627 Old 04-22-2016, 07:56 PM
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Well back to the drawing board. Just couldn't do the cylinder style sub.
My room 16 x 14. 90% movies/OTA. Either dual PB-2000 or just one PB-12 plus.
I cant spring for dual PB-12 plus. Also PB-13 Ultra is out of the question.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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post #23707 of 31627 Old 04-22-2016, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
Well back to the drawing board. Just couldn't do the cylinder style sub.
My room 16 x 14. 90% movies/OTA. Either dual PB-2000 or just one PB-12 plus.
I cant spring for dual PB-12 plus. Also PB-13 Ultra is out of the question.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
If the top port on the plus was the deciding factor to move away from the cylinder, just keep in mind the PC-2000 is rear ported. If not, I would go dual PB-2000s over a single plus...just my two cents.

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post #23708 of 31627 Old 04-22-2016, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
Well back to the drawing board. Just couldn't do the cylinder style sub.
My room 16 x 14. 90% movies/OTA. Either dual PB-2000 or just one PB-12 plus.
I cant spring for dual PB-12 plus. Also PB-13 Ultra is out of the question.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
What happened to your dual PC-Pluses plan? Well if only option is 2 PB-2000 or one PB12-Plus then winner is 2 PB-2000 all day long without even hard thinking. Only when I will say go for Plus is when you will add second in near furture.
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post #23709 of 31627 Old 04-22-2016, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mmmmmmbacon View Post
If the top port on the plus was the deciding factor to move away from the cylinder, just keep in mind the PC-2000 is rear ported. If not, I would go dual PB-2000s over a single plus...just my two cents.

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It was actually the size of the cylinder upward. I kept hearing water heater in my head. I finally just went
down and tried to visualize duals in the room. After that couldn't do it. If I had a big wide front stage
that may have been different. So I opted to have the traditional style box.

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post #23710 of 31627 Old 04-22-2016, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
It was actually the size of the cylinder upward. I kept hearing water heater in my head. I finally just went
down and tried to visualize duals in the room. After that couldn't do it. If I had a big wide front stage
that may have been different. So I opted to have the traditional style box.
Well, aesthetics are important, and the cylinders aren't for everyone. So, if you are sure, it is better to find out now. I think almost everyone will advise you to go with dual PB-2000's then. And you can still keep looking toward the future. Perhaps when you move to a larger space, if necessary you can sell one PB-2000 (people sell these all the time) and upgrade one sub to a PB-2000 Plus (later adding the second one the same way), or even better, try to sell both and upgrade both at the same time. That plan assumes that you still want to pursue your plan of using your BB option, and that at some point you decide that you definitely want two Pluses. No way to know for sure that you will absolutely need two Pluses.

There is more than one way to skin this cat, and not many here probably got to exactly where they wanted to go all at once.

Regards,
Mike
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post #23711 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
It was actually the size of the cylinder upward. I kept hearing water heater in my head. I finally just went
down and tried to visualize duals in the room. After that couldn't do it. If I had a big wide front stage
that may have been different. So I opted to have the traditional style box.
Understood. I actually went through the same thought process. Couldn't get my head above round the way they would look. If I was going plus or ultra, the PC would have been out...they are just too tall. Fortunately, the PC-2000s are shorter and fit perfectly across my center stage area under my in wall DT UIW RLS IIs, so I went for it. Since it's a dedicated media room, the wife could have cared less..."not my space, not my concern!"

That being said, the PCs are definitely a conversation starter when friends or family come over. Everyone is curious what they are, so then you play the opening of Edge of Tomorrow and, voila, no more questions but a lot of 😆.

Again, enjoy whatever you end up buying. There isn't a bad choice from 2000, plus or ultra, but there are 45 days to alter course. I would just recommend duals regardless of form factor.

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post #23712 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 01:48 PM
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Well, aesthetics are important, and the cylinders aren't for everyone.

There is more than one way to skin this cat, and not many here probably got to exactly where they wanted to go all at once.
You sir, have never seen my theater. I gave up on aesthetics a long time ago. You are right thought that the cylinders aren't for everybody. They work great in my theater and the ability to lay them on their sides has been a huge help for me.

No shame in building a theater up piece by piece. My current theater has been a three year project and still isn't done.
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post #23713 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 02:00 PM
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You sir, have never seen my theater. I gave up on aesthetics a long time ago. You are right thought that the cylinders aren't for everybody. They work great in my theater and the ability to lay them on their sides has been a huge help for me.

No shame in building a theater up piece by piece. My current theater has been a three year project and still isn't done.

LOL! I had forgotten about you putting your cylinders on their sides. I think you posted a picture of one lying behind a sofa once. It looked very restful there.

I actually do care about aesthetics in my mixed-use room. It's just that everyone's idea of what is attractive is so completely different. I have two cylinders in a big room, with dark paneling, and they blend in very nicely. But where I needed to put my third sub, the cylinder would have stood out too much, so I went with a PB instead.

Yeah, I think it's almost impossible to get to an end point all at once, partly because as we continue to learn, our audio tastes and goals continue to evolve. Plus, tinkering with things is part of the fun for me.

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post #23714 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 03:59 PM
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I have my 2 Pluses in living room just next to RF-7II's and it really looks great. No water issue for me or my wife at all. Much easier for us to place it now in smaller room. I probably still have room for box type of subs but I also liked outlet price with additional discount what I end up with.

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post #23715 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 06:30 PM
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Any advise on the best way to fix a rattling grill on a PB2000?

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post #23716 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 07:17 PM
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Any advise on the best way to fix a rattling grill on a PB2000?

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Take it off?

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post #23717 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 07:18 PM
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Take it off?
That is what I am thinking

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post #23718 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 08:31 PM
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That is what I am thinking

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Is the grille fitting loosely? Are you using isolation feet? It would probably be fine without the grille, although with my luck I would stumble and put my foot through the woofer. I might look for a way to attach it more tightly, or to isolate the sub from the floor a little.

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post #23719 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 08:33 PM
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Is the grille fitting loosely? Are you using isolation feet? It would probably be fine without the grille, although with my luck I would stumble and put my foot through the woofer. I might look for a way to attach it more tightly, or to isolate the sub from the floor a little.
I took it off massive improvement!

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post #23720 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 08:36 PM
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Hi,

I think that diffusers are a little ugly too. I like your idea of putting some fabric on the outside, and according to what I have read, some kind of microfiber would still allow the diffuser to work just fine.

There are different schools of thought on using measurement to determine the need for treatment of early reflections. One school of thought is that you are timing the reflection, and trying to treat anything under about 6ms. (I think that number's right.) My own view is that your ears are the final judge, because everything is a trade-off. It isn't just about distortion, or the measurements could be the final arbiter. I believe that is one of the conclusions that Floyd Toole reached from the listening tests he and Harmon conducted.

So, I don't know if you could draw any definitive conclusions about the use of diffusers via measurement. But I think that you could experiment to find out what really sounds best to you. In my room, I have added treatment very slowly and conservatively, sometimes moving things around a bit and listening as I go. That way is actually a little slow, but also quite sure, and rewarding, because I am listening for subtle nuances in the sound, and I get to hear every incremental improvement. I like that better than just putting up treatment, based on some arbitrary measurement standard, and then wondering why the room sounds too dead, or why the soundstage seems constricted, or whatever.

FWIW, I think that various kinds of music, and particularly music involving acoustic instruments (since most of us have a pretty good idea of what they are supposed to sound like), is a good way to test your room's acoustics, and to find the balance that works best for you.

Regards,
Mike
Well I actually had some massive success today. It could all be in my head but I think I noticed some pretty big improvement today. Namely I could not find any 'harshness' with either music or movies after putting in 2 bass traps I made today. They aren't even floor to ceiling, above the monitors in the corner of my HT room I do plan to put another bass trap. I have no REW measurements yet (will try tomorrow just got my Umik the other day) but I could easily push past -10 without any perceived distortion. I stopped around -6 for watching The Revenant and turned down my sub trim to about +4 gain (from audyssey original of -9 to -5) because of recent discussions on DEQ/sub trim level and I only have dual PB-1000s. At least to my ears there was a fair amount more clarity. It was also easier to carry on a normal conversation during even the loudest parts, another side of good acoustic treatment or so I've read.

I used some free insulation and shrink from work and some 2x8s so the project was pretty darn cheap. Even got the GOM for $9 a yard (CAD) because it was leftover from a project at a local acoustics place. Super cheap project to (already) have had such an impact. Fabric didn't go on as 'nice' as I wanted, ah well. Bass trap is about 6" thick of insulation and 8" gap behind, with the plastic around to filter out high frequencies.
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post #23721 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 08:56 PM
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Well I actually had some massive success today. It could all be in my head but I think I noticed some pretty big improvement today. Namely I could not find any 'harshness' with either music or movies after putting in 2 bass traps I made today. They aren't even floor to ceiling, above the monitors in the corner of my HT room I do plan to put another bass trap. I have no REW measurements yet (will try tomorrow just got my Umik the other day) but I could easily push past -10 without any perceived distortion. I stopped around -6 for watching The Revenant and turned down my sub trim to about +4 gain (from audyssey original of -9 to -5) because of recent discussions on DEQ/sub trim level and I only have dual PB-1000s. At least to my ears there was a fair amount more clarity. It was also easier to carry on a normal conversation during even the loudest parts, another side of good acoustic treatment or so I've read.

I used some free insulation and shrink from work and some 2x8s so the project was pretty darn cheap. Even got the GOM for $9 a yard (CAD) because it was leftover from a project at a local acoustics place. Super cheap project to (already) have had such an impact. Fabric didn't go on as 'nice' as I wanted, ah well. Bass trap is about 6" thick of insulation and 8" gap behind, with the plastic around to filter out high frequencies.
Outstanding! I think it looks pretty good, and the plastic was a smart touch. I seriously doubt that the audio improvement you heard was in your head. The first thing I noticed when I started adding bass traps was not just the perceived increase in bass, but the increase in clarity all the way up the frequency spectrum. Destructive interference is called that for a reason, but even so I was surprised how much effect it had.

I just recently added some more acoustic treatment, went a little too far with the mid-range frequencies, and backed off a little. It's just right for me now. Good fun!

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23722 of 31627 Old 04-23-2016, 09:08 PM
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Outstanding! I think it looks pretty good, and the plastic was a smart touch. I seriously doubt that the audio improvement you heard was in your head. The first thing I noticed when I started adding bass traps was not just the perceived increase in bass, but the increase in clarity all the way up the frequency spectrum. Destructive interference is called that for a reason, but even so I was surprised how much effect it had.

I just recently added some more acoustic treatment, went a little too far with the mid-range frequencies, and backed off a little. It's just right for me now. Good fun!
In the end its our ears we have to please.

It's crazy to me so few put much effort at all into their rooms or even placement when it can be done for pretty cheap and have a huge effect. I know a fellow at work who has 5x the money put into his stereo only system and he refuses to believe me when I say he should look into room treatment! And yeah while it may not be perfect I have level 0 woodworking skills so I learned a fair bit putting those bass traps together. Next project.. DIY dual 18" subs. I will be experimenting with moving the PB-1000s nearfield. Could be interesting integrating all 4 subs and a buttkicker but I have this new minidsp to play with as well. Honestly don't know if I could part with them. For 10" subs they really can belt out a lot of bass.
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post #23723 of 31627 Old 04-24-2016, 04:49 AM
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Any advise on the best way to fix a rattling grill on a PB2000?

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Rattling? Meaning it's fitting loose in one or more of the mounting hole's? If so you can take a piece of black electrical tape to wrap around once on the mounting pin that's fitting loose on the grill. Do the same to the other pins also if there loose fitting. If once around the pin is not enough then add another layer till it's tight.
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post #23724 of 31627 Old 04-24-2016, 07:38 AM
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My all in budget now or in the near future would allow me to go dual PB12 Plus or PB-2000 x3. The largest space this would go into
is around 4000 cf. From talking to Ed at SVS dual 2000 would work so I know either way I would have enough head room. I don't listen
to movies or OTA louder than -15 on MV with my Pioneer SC-89. I dont use this setup for music that much since I have a separate system for that. With that said is the PB12 Plus any better for music than the PB-2000?

Ive got some stuff
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post #23725 of 31627 Old 04-24-2016, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
My all in budget now or in the near future would allow me to go dual PB12 Plus or PB-2000 x3. The largest space this would go into
is around 4000 cf. From talking to Ed at SVS dual 2000 would work so I know either way I would have enough head room. I don't listen
to movies or OTA louder than -15 on MV with my Pioneer SC-89. I dont use this setup for music that much since I have a separate system for that. With that said is the PB12 Plus any better for music than the PB-2000?
I think I would go with the dual PB12 Plus if it were me. The wood finish and the better amp with more EQ options are worth it if you can afford to get two of them within your budget.
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post #23726 of 31627 Old 04-24-2016, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by baron2 View Post
My all in budget now or in the near future would allow me to go dual PB12 Plus or PB-2000 x3. The largest space this would go into
is around 4000 cf. From talking to Ed at SVS dual 2000 would work so I know either way I would have enough head room. I don't listen
to movies or OTA louder than -15 on MV with my Pioneer SC-89. I dont use this setup for music that much since I have a separate system for that. With that said is the PB12 Plus any better for music than the PB-2000?

Man, you do keep posing tough questions. I take it you just expanded your budget far enough to encompass the dual Pluses.

I think that there are advantages to having three subs, both in terms of EQ, and in terms of envelopment. On the other hand, in the shorter term, three would be overkill and you would have to find an additional location for a third sub. I got the impression you were pressed for space.

I think, if I were in your shoes I would probably get the dual Pluses now, as you had originally planned to do before deciding that the cylinders won't work in your current room. Then, when you move to the bigger space it is quite likely that the Pluses will entirely satisfy you, but if at that point you become curious again about the what if of having three subs, you can always explore the possibility of adding a third Plus (a PC or a PB). As most of us discover in this audio hobby, our budgets can become a little more flexible in the future than we sometimes think.

Frankly, I would rather have two of the better and more powerful subs, and worry about ever needing yet a third sub, if and when it becomes an issue.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
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Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #23727 of 31627 Old 04-24-2016, 03:19 PM
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Frankly, I would rather have two of the better and more powerful subs, and worry about ever needing yet a third sub, if and when it becomes an issue.
^^^This, I would go the PB12+ route.
I don't know if one would be "better" for music than the other, I think it really depends on how well they are integrated into your system/room. Both can sound very good...or bad...depending...

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post #23728 of 31627 Old 04-24-2016, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Man, you do keep posing tough questions. I take it you just expanded your budget far enough to encompass the dual Pluses.

I think that there are advantages to having three subs, both in terms of EQ, and in terms of envelopment. On the other hand, in the shorter term, three would be overkill and you would have to find an additional location for a third sub. I got the impression you were pressed for space.

I think, if I were in your shoes I would probably get the dual Pluses now, as you had originally planned to do before deciding that the cylinders won't work in your current room. Then, when you move to the bigger space it is quite likely that the Pluses will entirely satisfy you, but if at that point you become curious again about the what if of having three subs, you can always explore the possibility of adding a third Plus (a PC or a PB). As most of us discover in this audio hobby, our budgets can become a little more flexible in the future than we sometimes think.

Frankly, I would rather have two of the better and more powerful subs, and worry about ever needing yet a third sub, if and when it becomes an issue.

Regards,
Mike
Yes Mike this has turned into a tough one. There was only a $700 difference with going to the dual PC12 plus over the dual PC-2000.
I ended not really wanting a cylinder because of the height. So in came the idea of the dual PB- 2000 and the dual PB12 plus. BUT the dual PB12 plus would be $1029 more than the dual PB-2000. ( discounted both models not MSRP )I really do think those 2000's would be more than enough for my room now. But saying that I was looking into this being my last sub upgrade so the cost of 3 PB 2000's would be just a little cheaper than the dual PB12 plus at the price I can get these all for. I wouldn't run 3 subs in my room I have now, but if I wanted to upgrade in the future that 3rd PB-200 could be that upgrade. But if 3 of those is no better than dual PB12 plus I wouldn't gain anything.

I have read a couple hundred pages in these threads, it seems I'm not the only one that has struggled with a budget and trying to future proof at the same time.

Ive got some stuff
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post #23729 of 31627 Old 04-24-2016, 03:43 PM
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I know this is the SVS thread, but here is another option and would blow your current choices away...
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/15v
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post #23730 of 31627 Old 04-24-2016, 03:51 PM
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^^^^^Thanks for the link. I found the hobby of video a lot easier than audio as far as what to purchase.
I read something in here that when the dust settles made sense. He said a very small percentage of movies
needed what the subs he was looking at offered. Most movies don't have sound tracks that need subs to dig that
low or play that loud.

I was watching a movie last night and it hit me I could of just used a pair of my 10 inch Veritas
subs for that sound track. They didn't need to dig that deep or play that load to enjoy that movie.
OTA is like that as well. I think the hard part about this hobby compared to video is that with video
its a constant, you either have a bad, good or excellent picture. With audio, speakers and with subs
it seems like Oh My God if I don't have that extra ooommphh in my tank I will miss something.

I think after writing this down just now and looking at my progression in this hobby, this is one addictive hobby.
Always in search to make sure nothing has been missed. When you think you have found it and future proofed the bug
comes back to keep looking.

I have enough gear to setup 4 nice HT rooms, not to mention the vintage 70's gear just hanging around. I have become a audio hoarder.

Ive got some stuff

Last edited by baron2; 04-24-2016 at 04:11 PM.
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