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post #27901 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I don't think that the direction that the subwoofers face will be an issue. Although the ports also move air, the bass sound waves are emitted omnidirectionally, so which way the subs are facing shouldn't be an issue. The only issue is whether they work well together when placed on the same wall, and that is something that you can only decide by listening to them (and/or by measuring them). Sometimes, moving a sub just a little, or rotating it a little, can make a difference in the way it interacts with the room, so that is something to keep in mind if you are ever in the mood to experiment.

If they are on the same wall, and equidistant from the MLP, Mark Seaton recommends Y-connecting subs into the same sub out on your AVR. That seems to work better, even if you have something like Audyssey XT-32. Just run your calibration and see what happens, but again, which way the subs face shouldn't be a factor at all.

Regards,
Mike
Since this issue of dual subs on the same wall has been raised, I will share my experience. My room is 22ft long and 16ft wide, with subs on left side 22' wall about 8-9 feet apart, one a couple feet in front of and one slightly further behind the sofa that is the MLP. My bass is strong. Using XLR connectors, I have AVR trim after Audyssey XT32 at -11 and the two subs (with a 6db boost!) at -22 (for rear) and -24 (for front). I get the attached REW plot. This is with the subs' PEQ applied to help flatten the Audyssey result. My room is completely untreated and has lots of openings and irregularities (fireplace sticking out and bay window behind TV and front speakers). Mike, do you think moving the subs right and left a bit might help? I know that is the next step other than room treatment (I can't really place the subs on another wall).
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post #27902 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
Since this issue of dual subs on the same wall has been raised, I will share my experience. My room is 22ft long and 16ft wide, with subs on left side 22' wall about 8-9 feet apart, one a couple feet in front of and one slightly further behind the sofa that is the MLP. My bass is strong. Using XLR connectors, I have AVR trim after Audyssey XT32 at -11 and the two subs (with a 6db boost!) at -22 (for rear) and -24 (for front). I get the attached REW plot. This is with the subs' PEQ applied to help flatten the Audyssey result. My room is completely untreated and has lots of openings and irregularities (fireplace sticking out and bay window behind TV and front speakers). Mike, do you think moving the subs right and left a bit might help? I know that is the next step other than room treatment (I can't really place the subs on another wall).
Hi Mark,

I certainly think that it would be worth trying to move them around a bit. Although the overall frequency response isn't bad at all, you do have a pretty extensive dip between 40 and 50Hz, which is about 7db deep at ~ 45Hz. That is deep enough and wide enough to make a difference in what you hear--or in this case, in what you don't hear. Since you can measure as you adjust their position (including rotating them) you should be able to determine exactly what works best.

The other concern I might have is one that I am almost reluctant to raise, if it isn't something you notice now. With both subwoofers on the left wall, I would be a little concerned about subwoofer localization. Remembering the competence of the speakers in your front soundstage, my guess is that you won't be able to localize your subwoofers with a 60Hz crossover. You might also want to consider adding some bass boost to your front speakers, with the tone control, to see if you can fill-in that 40 to 50Hz gap a little.

Ideally, I would like to see you position one of your subwoofers somewhere along the right-hand wall. Are you sure that isn't possible? When I was positioning multiple subwoofers in my room, I found that looking at the room from a fresh perspective enabled me to see placement opportunities I didn't originally think I had. I simply made some very modest rearrangements and was able to position subwoofers right where I wanted them. That fresh perspective allowed me to be a little more imaginative about placement. It might be worth a try.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #27903 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

If they are on the same wall, and equidistant from the MLP, Mark Seaton recommends Y-connecting subs into the same sub out on your AVR. That seems to work better, even if you have something like Audyssey XT-32. Just run your calibration and see what happens, but again, which way the subs face shouldn't be a factor at all.

Regards,
Mike
I’ve recently learned of this rec from Mark Seaton. I’m still experimenting with my pc-4000s. If I put them both in rear corners they are not exactly equidistant but differ by 3ft. Actual is 9 vs 12 but wireless delay of 16 on top for each. You think that’s close enough to calibrate as one sub out?
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post #27904 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Brettmckinney View Post
Hey all! Well it's the long weekend and I'm keen to try out a few things with my dual-PB-200's! Has anyone tried running duals with front left corner and rear left corner? I currently have mine both at the front as I know this is recommended however I have a 3rd subwoofer that is connected separate to my 2 channel turntable setup and I have to say that whilst the sound is a little localised, the bass coming that position is pretty good and can be felt nicely at my seating position. Due to the room layout though I can't do the rear right corner as I have a fire place there. Thinking I might try 1 of my SVS in that rear left and see how they play. Better do some stretches!
With dual subs, it is usually much more preferable to have one in front and one in back rather than both up front.
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post #27905 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
I’ve recently learned of this rec from Mark Seaton. I’m still experimenting with my pc-4000s. If I put them both in rear corners they are not exactly equidistant but differ by 3ft. Actual is 9 vs 12 but wireless delay of 16 on top for each. You think that’s close enough to calibrate as one sub out?
I don't know, but it might be. You can certainly test it that way to see if you can determine any difference.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #27906 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Mark,

The other concern I might have is one that I am almost reluctant to raise, if it isn't something you notice now. With both subwoofers on the left wall, I would be a little concerned about subwoofer localization. Remembering the competence of the speakers in your front soundstage, my guess is that you won't be able to localize your subwoofers with a 60Hz crossover. You might also want to consider adding some bass boost to your front speakers, with the tone control, to see if you can fill-in that 40 to 50Hz gap a little.

Ideally, I would like to see you position one of your subwoofers somewhere along the right-hand wall. Are you sure that isn't possible? When I was positioning multiple subwoofers in my room, I found that looking at the room from a fresh perspective enabled me to see placement opportunities I didn't originally think I had. I simply made some very modest rearrangements and was able to position subwoofers right where I wanted them. That fresh perspective allowed me to be a little more imaginative about placement. It might be worth a try.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike, thanks for the reply. The idea of dropping crossover on the fronts to 60 and working on bass boost is interesting. I will give it a try. On the opposite wall part, it is really impossible. That opposite wall has the 4.5 foot wide open door at the rear and a fireplace in the middle and all the wall space is filled. I could move one of them on the back wall as shown by the arrow on the diagram attached below. Do you think that might be preferable?
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post #27907 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 01:37 PM
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Hello, my plan is to put them on the opposite wall across from each other. The distance between then is 9 feet
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post #27908 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
Hi Mike, thanks for the reply. The idea of dropping crossover on the fronts to 60 and working on bass boost is interesting. I will give it a try. On the opposite wall part, it is really impossible. That opposite wall has the 4.5 foot wide open door at the rear and a fireplace in the middle and all the wall space is filled. I could move one of them on the back wall as shown by the arrow on the diagram attached below. Do you think that might be preferable?
You are very welcome! There are no hard-and-fast rules about any of this, but in general, when we put subs on different walls we engage different room modes. And, when that happens, we have a better opportunity to avoid random peaks and valleys in the frequency response. I think that it is worth a try to take your rear subwoofer and move it to that back wall. I wouldn't just measure, though, I would also listen to find out if your bass sounds better that way.

If that works really well, then you are done. If not, and you still want to experiment, the other thing I would consider trying is leaving one sub on that back wall and moving the other sub to the space between the TV and the left front speaker. I know that you said you have a bay window behind the TV, so there may be reasons why that won't work. But, I might try it if you can. With furniture sliders, moving those subs around isn't too big a deal.

As far as the issue of subwoofer localization is concerned, some people notice it more than others. But, when you get the subs really well-positioned in the room, the bass just seems to come from everywhere. Some of us refer to that as "bass envelopment", and when you experience it, I think you will like it.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #27909 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 01:53 PM
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Hello, my plan is to put them on the opposite wall across from each other. The distance between then is 9 feet
That should still be fine, but I would probably try them first with separate sub outs (if your AVR has them) and then, if you want to, with them Y-connected into a single sub out. As you may be gathering from some of the other discussion, finding out what works best with subwoofers in a particular room is largely a process of trial-and-error.
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #27910 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That should still be fine, but I would probably try them first with separate sub outs (if your AVR has them) and then, if you want to, with them Y-connected into a single sub out. As you may be gathering from some of the other discussion, finding out what works best with subwoofers in a particular room is largely a process of trial-and-error.
Thanks a lot for all the feedback, I have a Marantz sr7011 and that has 2 subwoofer connections. So I will go with your first suggestion.
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post #27911 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 03:30 PM
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Pb16 Ultra on its way. Going to have to test it with the PB4000.
Pb16 farside front left and PB4000 nearside rear right. Might keep both

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
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post #27912 of 31459 Old 03-30-2018, 04:04 PM
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I finally had some time to crank up the Dual SVS SB-16 Ultra Subwoofers. They sound absolutely AMAZING!

Maybe tomorrow I can carve out some time to watch my first video with this setup. Hope you enjoy -
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post #27913 of 31459 Old 03-31-2018, 04:59 AM
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Just bought an SB2000 to run with my Marantz SR5012 receiver. What volume setting do you guys normally run your sub at? What's a good volume for general tv watching?
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post #27914 of 31459 Old 03-31-2018, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
With dual subs, it is usually much more preferable to have one in front and one in back rather than both up front.
Great thanks! Is there generally any concerns about having them on the same side? If I go diagonal then the front right sub is not in a corner but on the inside of my front main speaker which sits up against the entrance to a hall way and open area. Otherwise I'll have front left corner and back rear corner.

With my Onkyo 807 having dual sub outputs but only Audyssey XT, I'm not sure how it'll go calculating distance with them each at opposite sides of the room!
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post #27915 of 31459 Old 03-31-2018, 08:24 PM
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Been trying to help others in other post. and did not keep-up with this one


But do see, a certain pattern.
Many questions about their own room.


This link, offer many answers;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences


There is a reason that it now part of my signature, just like Alan P and some others
mthomas47, do reply to all posts.


Ray
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post #27916 of 31459 Old 04-01-2018, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
....I think that it is worth a try to take your rear subwoofer and move it to that back wall. I wouldn't just measure, though, I would also listen to find out if your bass sounds better that way.
...
As far as the issue of subwoofer localization is concerned, some people notice it more than others. But, when you get the subs really well-positioned in the room, the bass just seems to come from everywhere. Some of us refer to that as "bass envelopment", and when you experience it, I think you will like it.

Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike, I moved the rear sub to the back wall and re-ran Audyssey, and then did some REW sweeps. I would say overall the flatness of the response isn't much better, but is it is slightly different. As you advised I also just listened to it. I wasn't having much sub localization before, but when I tried it with one on left wall in front of mlp and the second on the back wall (rather than the other position behind the mlp on the same side wall), I do think that the overall envelopment is noticeably better. The lfe sounds more 'in front or around me' rather than possibly to the side. I think I like it, and will listen to it this way for awhile. I need to read more on the REW thread, but I wonder if modifying the phase of one of the subs would help? I tried changing the front L/R speakers crossover from 80 hz to 40 and 60 hz, but as before, that seems to cause an interference and makes the REW spl curves noticeably worse. I'll continue to experiment with sub PEQ and phase, etc.
Best,
Mark
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post #27917 of 31459 Old 04-01-2018, 03:11 PM
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Hi, i have a single pb12nsd and as soon as I can find one for sale somewhere I'm going to add a second. My current avr is a denon s530bt, so it does not have audyssey but it does have two sub out lines. My current sub is on the front right from listening position which makes it just a little off center from mid wall in the front. Couple questions...

1. Will I need to upgrade my AVR to properly integrate a second sub? Or any other calibration tips?
2. My two placement options are symmetrical on the front left side (wired) or rear left behind listening position. I would have to use a wireless kit for this position, and this would also put the sub in a corner. Which seems more ideal before testing and is putting it in a corner without audyssey a bad idea?

Thanks for your help!
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post #27918 of 31459 Old 04-01-2018, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mummer43 View Post
Just bought an SB2000 to run with my Marantz SR5012 receiver. What volume setting do you guys normally run your sub at? What's a good volume for general tv watching?
Whatever volume is necessary to calibrate the sub properly with your speakers in your room. Which will be different from anyone else.

When you run room correction/speaker set up with your AVR, you will be asked to set the sub to approximately 75 dB for calibration purposes. The amount of gain or "volume" needed to achieve this will vary depending on room size, placement, distance to MLP, etc. I would shoot of a volume setting closer to 80-82 dB which is louder than what it should be. This will cause your AVR to reduce your subwoofer output level 6-7 dB i.e. -6 to -7 for calibration. This will give you the freedom to increase the volume on your sub by 6-7 dB with your AVR's subwoofer trim controls without exceeding 0 subwoofer volume level in the AVR. This increase in subwoofer volume is almost universally common as far as listener preference.
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post #27919 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Brettmckinney View Post
Great thanks! Is there generally any concerns about having them on the same side?
Yes, localization. Sometimes...but not all the time...if both subs are on one side of the room, the bass can seem to be "heavy" on one side. No way to know until you try.


Quote:
With my Onkyo 807 having dual sub outputs but only Audyssey XT, I'm not sure how it'll go calculating distance with them each at opposite sides of the room!
You can use the phase adjustment on the closer sub to try and get them in phase. If no success, you will either need a new AVR or some sort of outboard box to time align the subs (e.g. MiniDSP).
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post #27920 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bamzam View Post
Hi, i have a single pb12nsd and as soon as I can find one for sale somewhere I'm going to add a second. My current avr is a denon s530bt, so it does not have audyssey but it does have two sub out lines. My current sub is on the front right from listening position which makes it just a little off center from mid wall in the front. Couple questions...

1. Will I need to upgrade my AVR to properly integrate a second sub? Or any other calibration tips?
2. My two placement options are symmetrical on the front left side (wired) or rear left behind listening position. I would have to use a wireless kit for this position, and this would also put the sub in a corner. Which seems more ideal before testing and is putting it in a corner without audyssey a bad idea?

Thanks for your help!
I'm not quite clear on your placement options for the dual subs. Did you mean that you would place them either both up front (front left) or both in back (rear left)?

If you are going to use one wired and one wireless connection for the dual subs, you will need either a new AVR that can set separate distances for each sub or a MiniDSP. Wireless connections induce huge amounts of delay that cannot be overcome with the sub's phase control.
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post #27921 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 09:50 AM
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I'm not quite clear on your placement options for the dual subs. Did you mean that you would place them either both up front (front left) or both in back (rear left)?

If you are going to use one wired and one wireless connection for the dual subs, you will need either a new AVR that can set separate distances for each sub or a MiniDSP. Wireless connections induce huge amounts of delay that cannot be overcome with the sub's phase control.
Sorry, to clarify, I will leave my current one where it is in the front right. The second sub I would put in either front left or rear left. But thank you, based on your answer I will probably put it in front left symmetrically since it sounds like I should keep it wired until I can u upgrade my receiver
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post #27922 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I'm not quite clear on your placement options for the dual subs. Did you mean that you would place them either both up front (front left) or both in back (rear left)?

If you are going to use one wired and one wireless connection for the dual subs, you will need either a new AVR that can set separate distances for each sub or a MiniDSP. Wireless connections induce huge amounts of delay that cannot be overcome with the sub's phase control.
THANKS............ Never done wireless before......old dog new trick. I am looking at different wireless options for friends 5.2 system as it looks like they have a transceiver and receiver I have to connect to each amp output and speaker IN on each cabinet. He passed away and his sister has all his home/equipment and wants to move it around in the room. I helped wire that room 20 years ago LOL getting to old now to crawl up the attic and drill thru two 2X4 ( top plate) and fish the wires. Plus one rear speaker there is NOT a wall/corner so wireless is only option................. ALSO...... How can I use one send/rec unit to two subs stacked????

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post #27923 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 10:54 AM
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Yes, localization. Sometimes...but not all the time...if both subs are on one side of the room, the bass can seem to be "heavy" on one side. No way to know until you try.
....
As a data point, I just moved my rear sub from the same wall (both were on the left side wall, in front and behind the MLP) to the rear wall, and although it didn't really help the flatness of the REW frequency spl plot, it did definitely sound better in that the overall bass felt more front/surround that slightly left side heavy (which I really hadn't noticed, but would now--thanks to Mike Thomas for the suggestion).
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post #27924 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 11:10 AM
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Thinking of the svs ultra tower speakers as they are on sale here in my country. The catch is its the 'oak' finish on sale. Thoughts on this? Everyone seems to get and love the piano black finish.
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post #27925 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis Bartay View Post
THANKS............ Never done wireless before......old dog new trick. I am looking at different wireless options for friends 5.2 system as it looks like they have a transceiver and receiver I have to connect to each amp output and speaker IN on each cabinet. He passed away and his sister has all his home/equipment and wants to move it around in the room. I helped wire that room 20 years ago LOL getting to old now to crawl up the attic and drill thru two 2X4 ( top plate) and fish the wires. Plus one rear speaker there is NOT a wall/corner so wireless is only option................. ALSO...... How can I use one send/rec unit to two subs stacked????
You would just spit the output of the wireless receiver with a traditional y-splitter and on to the subs. This method will work if both subs will be stacked or equidistant to the MLP. If the subs are NOT equidistant to the MLP, you will either need to have both connected wireless or have some way to account for the large difference in delay.
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post #27926 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Troyus_ View Post
Thinking of the svs ultra tower speakers as they are on sale here in my country. The catch is its the 'oak' finish on sale. Thoughts on this? Everyone seems to get and love the piano black finish.
Oak finish veneer and even vinyl is my preference. Watching movies on my 65" OLED anything even remotely reflective absolutely glows in my room. It's very distracting. I'm not sure how people with glossy black deal with it.
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post #27927 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 02:38 PM
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The difference between my new PC-2000 and my old BIC-F12 was night and day.

What kind of difference would I expect to see from the PC-2000 to the PC-4000?

Considering shipping the 2000 back and getting the big boy now instead as I’ve mentioned previously in here. Just wasn’t sure what kind of difference to expect. Surely it can’t be the same kind of difference but what do I know

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post #27928 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 03:21 PM
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The difference between my new PC-2000 and my old BIC-F12 was night and day.

What kind of difference would I expect to see from the PC-2000 to the PC-4000?

Considering shipping the 2000 back and getting the big boy now instead as I’ve mentioned previously in here. Just wasn’t sure what kind of difference to expect. Surely it can’t be the same kind of difference but what do I know
Hi,

I don't know whether I would call the difference between the two SVS subs night-and-day, but I do think that the difference would be extremely noticeable. First, the PC4000 would have more max output at every frequency. You might not notice that, however, unless you are already pushing your PC2000 fairly hard. Where I would really notice the difference is with movies with low-bass content, because the PC 4000 would produce much more low-bass SPL than the PC2000 is capable of producing. At some frequencies, and really from about 50Hz down, the single PC4000 would be like having two PC2000's.

You can compare the max output characteristics of the two subwoofers on the two tables which follow. You can just use the PB13 in 15Hz port mode from the second table to compare to the PB2000 in the first one. (Use the right hand column in the PB2000 table.)

https://www.lifewire.com/svs-pb-2000-review-3135027

https://data-bass.com/systems

It takes a while to learn to associate specific frequency ranges with specific content, but most of us really appreciate having good SPL below about 35 or 40Hz for movies. From about 30Hz down, a 5db increase in SPL is perceived as a doubling in loudness. So, increases in SPL at those low-frequencies are especially significant and noticeable for movies. And, that's where I believe you would notice the greatest difference.

Good subwoofers are expensive, and we pay more for the increased SPL and low-frequency extension that we get from them. I can't tell exactly how much difference you will notice, but having had really powerful subwoofers, it would be hard for me to go back to those with less low-frequency output.

Considering your enthusiasm for your new subwoofer, and the fact that you are already thinking of adding another subwoofer, or moving up to a PC4000, I want to go back to what I told you on the last page. I advised you to work toward dual PC4000's, if you can afford to do so, and that advice is still the best advice I can give you. You are a bass enthusiast, and there is no point in fighting it.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #27929 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 05:05 PM
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That’s a really helpful answer, thanks! I’ve already got my wife on board so I think we’re just gonna go ahead and make the switch now!

Sony 75" X900E | Yamaha RX-V383 | Samsung UBD-M8500
Klipsch RP-150M - RP-250C F/C/R | Fluance SX6 Rear | SVS PC-2000
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post #27930 of 31459 Old 04-02-2018, 05:57 PM
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That’s a really helpful answer, thanks! I’ve already got my wife on board so I think we’re just gonna go ahead and make the switch now!
Good choice you will NOT regret it. Go BIG on subs and center for HT and be done with that part of the system. I purchased my PB 13 Ultra used last year ..... awesome deal. I wanted the PC 13 Ultra back then, before the 4000 series replaced them. Small room and I had more places to try the PC. I AM happy with the PB 13U now that I have learned to adjust the DSP for blocking the ports for 2.1 music and retune for all open for movies.
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