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post #28561 of 31646 Old 07-07-2018, 11:48 AM
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I have debated whether or not to offer an alternative viewpoint to the discussion of whether SVS should add a 3000 model subwoofer. Since things are fairly quiet, I think I will.

Let me preface my comments by agreeing that they probably will add a 3000 model. Like others, I don't see it as a coincidence that SVS left a gap between the 2000 model and the 4000 model, and that they have discontinued the 12-Plus. I also believe that they know what they are doing from a business perspective, as SVS appears to be a very successful company. And, I am a long-time and satisfied SVS customer. But, I'll confess that, as a subwoofer fan, I wish that they were a little bolder in their approach at times. And, the discussion of a likely 3000 model is a perfect example of that for me.

If I compare the max output numbers of the PB2000 (which was tested) to the assumed output numbers of the PB4000 (which averages about 1db more than the PB13) there is an average difference between the two models of ~6db down to 20Hz. Below 20Hz, the difference is much greater.

In my opinion, that is actually a very good difference between the two models. And, it gives people clear choices. Someone can buy a single PB2000, or two PB2000's, or one PB4000. From a business perspective, it does make sense to split the difference at a 3db average difference with a 3000 model. That will enable people to move up more incrementally, taking advantage of the upgrade policy.

But, in my opinion, a 3db increase in max output is a pretty modest and incremental increase. Frankly, I think that was a problem with the PB12-Plus before, especially once the PB2000 was introduced. And, I think that it's a problem with the PB16 now. When the PB16 came out, it was about 4db more powerful than the PB13 below 35Hz. Above 35Hz, they remained roughly equal. With the introduction of the PB4000, the difference in max output has shrunk to only ~3db below 35Hz. I am finding it harder now to recommend the flagship PB16, compared to the PB4000.

I believe that I understand the commercial reasons why SVS chose not to be even bolder with the PB16, and those reasons make good business sense. But, that kind of business decision is increasingly separating SVS from the bolder and more innovative ID companies. (Not that SVS isn't being innovative in other ways, with the display, remote, and DSP.) I want to be clear that I am still a loyal SVS subwoofer owner. But, I am also a subwoofer fan. And, when I try to help other people make good subwoofer buying decisions, I can't help wishing that the PB16 were a little bolder venture than it is.

I really think that keeping at least 4 or 5db between models is a better policy than only keeping 3db between models. And frankly, the flagship offering should stand well above the other models, in my opinion. Again, I understand other owner points of view on this subject, and I believe that I understand the commercial one, too. But, I still can't help wishing that my selected company were a little bolder within the industry in which it competes. The sealed models may be competing against some of the name brand "music" subwoofers. But, the ported models have to compete against the true ID companies. And, their offerings tend to be much more aggressive, with more significant output differences between their various models.

I just wanted to share my viewpoint on this, and I hope that no one will get upset with me for doing so.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #28562 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
Well add me to the list of probable 4000 series amp failures. I have dual PC-4000s which I received in March. One had no output today. Directly connected my phone and even at max phone volume and max sub gain could only get a very low sound output. The other sub sounded fine and very loud if turned up. The electronics appear to operate normally. So I'm assuming amp failure unless something came loose. The only other odd thing I have noticed with these subs from day 1 is a very high pitched but low level squeeling sound from both amps when on that's only audible when standing right next to sub. Don't know if that's normal or relevant but they otherwise seems to function normally until today. I hear similar noises from lots of electronics. I have emailed SVS and assuming will hear back tomorrow AM with either amp replacement arrangements or further troubleshooting. Not worried about getting it running again with SVS (one of the reasons I bought from them) but still frustrating when it happens to you. Always very hard to know in a forum setting about failure rates but there does seem to be a possible uptick with the newer models.


Did you get this sorted? Did you get a replacement amp? I think my second pb16 is shot as well. Although this time around this one is exhibiting exactly what you’re describing.

That’s 2 out of 2 for me.

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post #28563 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I have debated whether or not to offer an alternative viewpoint to the discussion of whether SVS should add a 3000 model subwoofer. Since things are fairly quiet, I think I will.

....

I just wanted to share my viewpoint on this, and I hope that no one will get upset with me for doing so.
That's excellent objective and constructive criticism. I've noticed that while most people will claim SVS products are of high quality, they often tend to recommend other brands, at least as of late. And I think your post might shed some light on the causes. It certainly gave me a different perspective on their subwoofer line. Great insight!
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post #28564 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by duffus2 View Post
Did you get this sorted? Did you get a replacement amp? I think my second pb16 is shot as well. Although this time around this one is exhibiting exactly what you’re describing.

That’s 2 out of 2 for me.
Wow. One more case of posible dead amp. Two for two?

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post #28565 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 03:25 PM
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Lately in USA you have nice alternatives to SVS. In Europe - not so much.

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post #28566 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 04:32 PM
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Lately in USA you have nice alternatives to SVS. In Europe - not so much.
USA is the land of the subwoofers. Rest of the world, for the most part, is toasted.
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post #28567 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 05:47 PM
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USA is the land of the subwoofers. Rest of the world, for the most part, is toasted.
True the best sub's are from the States, and many fine companies to choose from.

My first SVS sub, was the PB12Plus/2, and came directly from the US.
And I had to figure out the money exchange and all other fees.

But now, they do have two Canadian distributer, that I know about
And also many more, at different country around the word.

A very smart move, business wise.
Now the guessing game is gone


Since then, I did purchase a second PB12Plus/2, then replace them with my current two, PB13-Ultra.
And lately added four Prime Elevation, for ceiling duty.


Ray
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post #28568 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 05:51 PM
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True the best sub's are from the States, and many fine companies to choose from.


My first SVS sub, was the PB12Plus/2, and came directly from the US.
And I had to figure out the money exchange and all other fees.
You do have Funk Audio, they make damn fine subs from all I've seen.
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post #28569 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 05:52 PM
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Lately in USA you have nice alternatives to SVS. In Europe - not so much.
XTZ and Arendal seem to be reasonably well respected brands from Europe.
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post #28570 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 05:56 PM
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True the best sub's are from the States, and many fine companies to choose from.
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You do have Funk Audio, they make damn fine subs from all I've seen.

Well, there is Paradigm too. Certainly not the best bang for the buck here in the USA, but they do make pretty good subs. Don't know how they price out in Canada?

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post #28571 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 06:00 PM
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Well, there is Paradigm too. Certainly not the best bang for the buck here in the USA, but they do make pretty good subs. Don't know how they price out in Canada?

Not the best bang for the money, in my honest opinion.
And even less, if you consider the Customer Service.
You can't get personal Customer Service from an ID company, compare to those mass market one.

I personally would not get one, even as a Canadian.
All the gear in my theater is from the US, except for the front projector and the AVP, Marantz and JVC, do allow cross border sell.


Ray

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post #28572 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 06:12 PM
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You do have Funk Audio, they make damn fine subs from all I've seen.

Honestly, in my days of shopping for a new sub.
I never ran into that brand, so I will have to look it up, just for personal education, since I am more than satisfied with my present ones.


That said, I still very much enjoy your Avatar
Still remember those commercial, "Is it Live, or Memorex".
Way back in those cassette tape days


Ray

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post #28573 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 06:26 PM
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Honestly, in my days of shopping for a new sub.
I never ran into that brand, so I will have to look it up, just for personal education, since I am more than satisfied with my present ones.


That said, I still very much enjoy your Avatar
Still remember those commercial, "Is it Live, or Memorex".
Way back in those cassette tape days


Ray
You know, when I chose that Avatar, I made that mistake too. It's actually from a Maxell commercial.
Which is fine, as Memorex was not a good brand, and Maxell was. We used TDK because it was even better than Maxell at a lower price point.
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post #28574 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 06:30 PM
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how hard

do i have to push my pb-4000 to get it to do this ?
ive not pushed it but real hard yet , but had my couch shaking a tad .
ive yet to feel any measurable amount of air pushing like in this video.
am i a wimp or what?
ill say ive had the woofer moving about a 1/2 inch or a tad more,so far
how much excursion can these things take?


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post #28575 of 31646 Old 07-08-2018, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duffus2 View Post
Did you get this sorted? Did you get a replacement amp? I think my second pb16 is shot as well. Although this time around this one is exhibiting exactly what you’re describing.

That’s 2 out of 2 for me.
Sorry you are having trouble as well. Yes SVS as expected took care of everything with excellent CS. Emailed many days over a period of a week with Jack often emailing very early in the am even on July 4th (like 4-6am). I actually wound up with an amp replacement on each sub. After some troubleshooting steps we determined the amp was dead on the problematic sub. After replacing it I realized it was dead silent in comparison to my other working sub and the one that died. They had a high pitch whine mostly only heard when standing next to sub but if room completely quiet I could slightly hear it at MLP if I really concentrated. Sounded like transformer coil whine similar to what you can often hear in power supplies. Didn't seem to affect function as far as I could tell and no idea if it had anything to do with the premature failure but it bugged me and didn't seem normal. SVS replaced it without question and both new ones are silent.

Just some notes on the amp replacement process. Prying amp out of the pc-4000 was a little difficult. Instruction say to use a nail head to stick through corner screw holes and pull but I didn't have ay nails small enough and they were pretty small nails. Used a plastic spudger I had from ifixit. Both the woofer and display connections have glue on them that needed to be pulled off which was explained but the display connection was rather tough to dissconnect and I was little worried about breaking it. Had to work at it a bit. The model/serial number sticker is on the plate amp but new amps don't come with a sticker as you keep same serial number. I didn't like the idea of not having model #/serial number on my subs so transferred the sticker.

It the end all worked out and back in business. I live in Ohio so amps only take 1 or 2 days to get to me. So annoying I had to go through that but glad it happened with a company like SVS.

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post #28576 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
You do have Funk Audio, they make damn fine subs from all I've seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Honestly, in my days of shopping for a new sub.
I never ran into that brand, so I will have to look it up, just for personal education, since I am more than satisfied with my present ones.


That said, I still very much enjoy your Avatar
Still remember those commercial, "Is it Live, or Memorex".
Way back in those cassette tape days


Ray
Oooh, you're in for a treat if you're going to be learning about Funk for the first time! If money was no object, that would be my personal pick.

FYI Fluance is also a Canadian audio company. And, ummm.....aren't Anthem receivers Canadian as well? Sorry, difficult for me to recall.
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post #28577 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmerCa View Post
Wow. One more case of posible dead amp. Two for two?
Yep, second PB16 amp that's stopped working within 2-3 weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
Sorry you are having trouble as well. Yes SVS as expected took care of everything with excellent CS. Emailed many days over a period of a week with Jack often emailing very early in the am even on July 4th (like 4-6am). I actually wound up with an amp replacement on each sub. After some troubleshooting steps we determined the amp was dead on the problematic sub. After replacing it I realized it was dead silent in comparison to my other working sub and the one that died. They had a high pitch whine mostly only heard when standing next to sub but if room completely quiet I could slightly hear it at MLP if I really concentrated. Sounded like transformer coil whine similar to what you can often hear in power supplies. Didn't seem to affect function as far as I could tell and no idea if it had anything to do with the premature failure but it bugged me and didn't seem normal. SVS replaced it without question and both new ones are silent.

Just some notes on the amp replacement process. Prying amp out of the pc-4000 was a little difficult. Instruction say to use a nail head to stick through corner screw holes and pull but I didn't have ay nails small enough and they were pretty small nails. Used a plastic spudger I had from ifixit. Both the woofer and display connections have glue on them that needed to be pulled off which was explained but the display connection was rather tough to dissconnect and I was little worried about breaking it. Had to work at it a bit. The model/serial number sticker is on the plate amp but new amps don't come with a sticker as you keep same serial number. I didn't like the idea of not having model #/serial number on my subs so transferred the sticker.

It the end all worked out and back in business. I live in Ohio so amps only take 1 or 2 days to get to me. So annoying I had to go through that but glad it happened with a company like SVS.
Picked up another replacement amp today. Everything back up and running now. Even though SVS (and my local distributor, who I deal with) offer excellent customer service, this does worry me. Seeing as both my PB16's now have had failed amps who's to say this wont happen again (and again?) Hopefully the replacement amps I've now gotten are of better quality.

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post #28578 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by duffus2 View Post
Yep, second PB16 amp that's stopped working within 2-3 weeks.



Picked up another replacement amp today. Everything back up and running now. Even though SVS (and my local distributor, who I deal with) offer excellent customer service, this does worry me. Seeing as both my PB16's now have had failed amps who's to say this wont happen again (and again?) Hopefully the replacement amps I've now gotten are of better quality.
Ya not sure what to make of the amp failures. There seems to be more reported failures of both the 16 ultra series and 4000 series than prior models. At the same time they probably are selling a ton of these so absolute failure numbers will be higher and forum reporting is biased for problems. I had several other SVS subs that I either returned within trial window or traded up. I had the PC12-pluses the longest at about a year. No issues with any of them. So my sense is that there is a real uptick in amp issues but only SVS would have the real data and all else is speculation.
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FedEx Sucks. They wouldnt drop of the subwoofer today because nobody was old enough to sign for it. My sons 19 for cryin out loud. He was in boot camp last year but hes not old enough to sign for a package? I had to call and complain. After I complained they say they'll let him sign for it tomorrow. Morons.
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Well, calling and complaining might have worked. They just called me and said the driver is coming back today. It's funny, I don't even really need the sub for a week or 2, but I figure the longer it sits in his truck the more likely something bad will happen to it.

Cross your fingers for me!


EDIT

It has arrived!

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post #28581 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 03:48 PM
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Well, calling and complaining might have worked. They just called me and said the driver is coming back today. It's funny, I don't even really need the sub for a week or 2, but I figure the longer it sits in his truck the more likely something bad will happen to it.

Cross your fingers for me!


EDIT

It has arrived!


pics or it didn't happen.

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At last, my ole pal has found his long lost brother!
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post #28583 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 04:59 PM
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At last, my ole pal has found his long lost brother!
Enjoy!! They make a potent pair. Love my dual PC-4000s which are essentislly the same.
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post #28584 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
You know, when I chose that Avatar, I made that mistake too. It's actually from a Maxell commercial.
Which is fine, as Memorex was not a good brand, and Maxell was. We used TDK because it was even better than Maxell at a lower price point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiJzLfxWooo

LOL


I feel better knowing, that I am not the only one who made this mistake
And a Big Thanks, for including this video shot many years ago
Brought back many memories.


Ray
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post #28585 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthray View Post
True the best sub's are from the States, and many fine companies to choose from.

My first SVS sub, was the PB12Plus/2, and came directly from the US.
And I had to figure out the money exchange and all other fees.

But now, they do have two Canadian distributer, that I know about
And also many more, at different country around the word.

A very smart move, business wise.
Now the guessing game is gone


Since then, I did purchase a second PB12Plus/2, then replace them with my current two, PB13-Ultra.
And lately added four Prime Elevation, for ceiling duty.


Ray

I do stand corrected, and big enough of a man to admit to it, even if I weight only 128lb
I should have been more specific, for very good subs for the money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Zuehlke View Post
Oooh, you're in for a treat if you're going to be learning about Funk for the first time! If money was no object, that would be my personal pick.

FYI Fluance is also a Canadian audio company. And, ummm.....aren't Anthem receivers Canadian as well? Sorry, difficult for me to recall.


Now I remember why, I did never look seriously into them, way out of my pay grade.


Ray
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Last edited by darthray; 07-09-2018 at 07:05 PM.
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post #28586 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 07:05 PM
 
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You canadians must be starving to death over there! Americans eat 128 lbs a day!
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post #28587 of 31646 Old 07-09-2018, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by drunkpenguin View Post
You canadians must be starving to death over there! Americans eat 128 lbs a day!

LOL


I do eat like a pig, and not the best diet at all, pizza/hot dog and so on


Join the army at 180lb, then drop to 160lb.
Got into body building, and reach 170lb with no fat, all muscles.
Then back 17 years ago, took a hard look at my life, and told my-self, you do not have a life, everything is work out
Sold the gym, but kept working very hard at work.
Slowly drop to my current weight, and been there for the last 4 years or so.


Ray
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post #28588 of 31646 Old 07-10-2018, 08:52 AM
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Just ordered the final Ultra BS to complete my 7.1 group. It popped up in the outlet last night so I called this morning and Ed supplied me with a 5% returning customer discount code.

[Edit 7/11]: Shipped, Delivery date: 7/17/2018
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Regards, Ken (Retired)
7.1.2) Denon 4520CI; Aircom T-8, Samsung 55H8000; OPPO 203; 6x SVS Ultra BS,
Ultra Center; FH 2xPolk; Rythmik F12; CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD (x2)
2.1 Ch.) Nak RE-1, CR7A, BD F7500, Denon 300F/Ortofon 2M Bronze;
ADS L1290(x2); PINNACLE BABYBOOMER SUB, PANAMAX MR4300

Last edited by Matt2026; 07-11-2018 at 08:52 PM.
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post #28589 of 31646 Old 07-10-2018, 01:41 PM
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SB16-Ultra arrived yesterday.
It appears smaller on pictures

It took some time to optimize 3 PEQ bands and phase using XTZ Room Analyzer, but now it blends perfectly with front speakers.

Fantastic subwoofer - both for music and movies. It fills with ease ~40 m2 (~3700 cu. ft.) + some additional open space.
I'm VERY happy with my decision




p.s. I have to thank Ed and other people in SVS for perfect support while I was in a process of choosing the right SVS for my needs. They were answering to my e-mails literally in minutes even while Ed was "out of the office" on a business trip. A+ for customer satisfaction!
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Anthem MRX 720 | Parasound Halo A21
Dynaudio Contour 60 | Dynaudio Excite X28 | Dynaudio Emit M20 | 2x SVS SB16-Ultra
LG OLED65C7V

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post #28590 of 31646 Old 07-10-2018, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
You know, when I chose that Avatar, I made that mistake too. It's actually from a Maxell commercial.
Which is fine, as Memorex was not a good brand, and Maxell was. We used TDK because it was even better than Maxell at a lower price point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiJzLfxWooo
"Blown Away"

That picture was taken by Steve Steigman and presented by the Weaver gallery.

Maxell used it in their advertising and it was brilliant.
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