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post #28681 of 31236 Old 07-25-2018, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DarkEnigma View Post
Not sure what changed, but i essentially reconnected everything and they're spl matching properly now.

Biggest difference I've noticed is the lack of distortion at 120+db. 12 pluses used to cry, with quite a bit of higher harmonic distortion. 13u's are doing quite well and I can even get an extra ~3db out of them before I tap out(and the distortion is still inaudible for me!)

Very noticeable difference in tactile feel as well despite producing the same SPL. According to REW though I've gained absolutely no additional extension. They shoot down like a rock at 16hz, which is pretty disappointing.

Hi,

I'm glad that everything is working better now. I assume that you are running the subwoofers in the one-port, extended mode. I think that it would be interesting to overlay the two graph lines of Plus and PB13 (with your new calibration) but I guess I'm not too surprised that the SPL below 16Hz hasn't changed much, if at all. I would expect you to get another Hz or two--maybe down to 14 or 15Hz, compared to the Plus. But, there was never going to be a great deal of difference below 16Hz between the two. The relatively modest difference between the two subs is something that I had discussed in a post a couple of weeks ago. But, I do think that the PB13 is all-around, the superior subwoofer of the two.

The fact that you are feeling more low-bass tactile response is good news, and I think that follows. Particle velocity is related to port tune, and somewhere around 15 or 16Hz (which is someplace where the PB13 is stronger than the Plus) is where we seem to hear and feel those sensations quite strongly. To be fair, subwoofers which can give you good SPL and strong low-bass tactile sensations into the mid-teens, in a large room, are doing pretty well. That's a very good goal for most HT systems, especially in a very large room.

Hopefully, this will be enough for you now. I think that the biggest challenge with many upgrades is enjoying the difference that the upgrade makes, without simply absorbing it, and deciding that you want even more.

Realistically, if you ever decided that you do want even more, you would need to move up to something like dual JTR Cap 2400's (or even Cap 4000's) in my opinion. Alternatively, you could move up to a couple of PB16's and gain another 4db between about 15Hz and 35Hz. But, they would still roll-off fairly rapidly below about 14 or 15Hz. The real low-frequency monsters are the big ported JTR subs. And, they produce a disproportionate amount of TR, even compared to other ported subs.

FWIW, I believe that a system that is good enough to provide really good SPL into about the low to mid-teens will be sufficient for 99.9% of the users, even on a forum such as AVS. Time will tell whether you fit into the .1%.

Regards,
Mike

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post #28682 of 31236 Old 07-25-2018, 05:23 PM
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Hi,

I'm glad that everything is working better now. I assume that you are running the subwoofers in the one-port, extended mode. I think that it would be interesting to overlay the two graph lines of Plus and PB13 (with your new calibration) but I guess I'm not too surprised that the SPL below 16Hz hasn't changed much, if at all. I would expect you to get another Hz or two--maybe down to 14 or 15Hz, compared to the Plus. But, there was never going to be a great deal of difference below 16Hz between the two. The relatively modest difference between the two subs is something that I had discussed in a post a couple of weeks ago. But, I do think that the PB13 is all-around, the superior subwoofer of the two.

The fact that you are feeling more low-bass tactile response is good news, and I think that follows. Particle velocity is related to port tune, and somewhere around 15 or 16Hz (which is someplace where the PB13 is stronger than the Plus) is where we seem to hear and feel those sensations quite strongly. To be fair, subwoofers which can give you good SPL and strong low-bass tactile sensations into the mid-teens, in a large room, are doing pretty well. That's a very good goal for most HT systems, especially in a very large room.

Hopefully, this will be enough for you now. I think that the biggest challenge with many upgrades is enjoying the difference that the upgrade makes, without simply absorbing it, and deciding that you want even more.

Realistically, if you ever decided that you do want even more, you would need to move up to something like dual JTR Cap 2400's (or even Cap 4000's) in my opinion. Alternatively, you could move up to a couple of PB16's and gain another 4db between about 15Hz and 35Hz. But, they would still roll-off fairly rapidly below about 14 or 15Hz. The real low-frequency monsters are the big ported JTR subs. And, they produce a disproportionate amount of TR, even compared to other ported subs.

FWIW, I believe that a system that is good enough to provide really good SPL into about the low to mid-teens will be sufficient for 99.9% of the users, even on a forum such as AVS. Time will tell whether you fit into the .1%.

Regards,
Mike
I did some more testing and they certainly do extend to 14Hz (almost 10db over the 12 plus ), so I'm a pretty happy camper . Right now the sensitivity in the high end is still lacking compared to the 12 Plus, but I assume that will come in over time once they break in. Currently when gain matched, above 40hz the 13Us are 1-3db lower than my 12 pluses. YPAO also sets them at -2.5, where the 12 pluses were at -5.
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post #28683 of 31236 Old 07-26-2018, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DarkEnigma View Post
I did some more testing and they certainly do extend to 14Hz (almost 10db over the 12 plus ), so I'm a pretty happy camper . Right now the sensitivity in the high end is still lacking compared to the 12 Plus, but I assume that will come in over time once they break in. Currently when gain matched, above 40hz the 13Us are 1-3db lower than my 12 pluses. YPAO also sets them at -2.5, where the 12 pluses were at -5.
Just curious what changed in your testing that the 13U now shows better extension? I similarly moved from dual PC12+ to dual PC-4000 and didn't get any better extension according to my REW data. In fact the PC12+ was a hair better. Subjectively they sound better with better TR at the low end so no biggie but the REW data always buged me.

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post #28684 of 31236 Old 07-26-2018, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DarkEnigma View Post
I did some more testing and they certainly do extend to 14Hz (almost 10db over the 12 plus ), so I'm a pretty happy camper . Right now the sensitivity in the high end is still lacking compared to the 12 Plus, but I assume that will come in over time once they break in. Currently when gain matched, above 40hz the 13Us are 1-3db lower than my 12 pluses. YPAO also sets them at -2.5, where the 12 pluses were at -5.

That's excellent news with respect to the low-frequencies! I think that most of us upgrade for more low-frequency SPL, and the DSP in the Ultras really tries to emphasize that.

I have been experimenting with something lately that was discussed on the thread a week or so back. The PB16 and PB4000 have a 'Music' preset which adds a 2-3db boost centered at 63Hz. That is just about where most of us feel the strongest chest punch sensations. So far, I like using that setting for movies, although it was almost too much when I employed it with all of my subs on Tomb Raider last night. I will be experimenting for a while yet.

I don't remember exactly what the DSP options are on the PB13, but it would surprise me if there isn't something similar available to you. I have always liked using the extended mode for movie viewing, because I really like being able to maximize the low-frequency SPL and tactile response. But, I have found that the peak which SVS baked-into the Music preset at 63Hz makes the mid-bass, as a whole, seem relatively more prominent. Clearly, they knew what they were doing!

I think that it would be worth a try to see if your PB13's have any sort of preset like that. If not, I'm sure that you can add a boost yourself using the digital control. I don't believe that a modest boost centered at 63Hz will cost you a significant amount of low-bass headroom (although there will necessarily be a slight effect) and it might be something you will like.

Regards,
Mike
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post #28685 of 31236 Old 07-26-2018, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post

I have been experimenting with something lately that was discussed on the thread a week or so back. The PB16 and PB4000 have a 'Music' preset which adds a 2-3db boost centered at 63Hz. That is just about where most of us feel the strongest chest punch sensations. So far, I like using that setting for movies, although it was almost too much when I employed it with all of my subs on Tomb Raider last night. I will be experimenting for a while yet.


Regards,
Mike
I've been doing the same on my PC-4000s and feel as you do so far. Somewhat surprised that the 3db boost made that much of a difference and similarly feel at times it may be a little too much but haven't backed down yet as the vast majority of the time I really like it. Also in extended mode.
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post #28686 of 31236 Old 07-29-2018, 08:31 AM
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@DarkEnigma ,

Here are the settings that @mthomas47 is referring to if you need them.

PEQ1: 63 Hz, Q 2.0, +2 dB
PEQ2: 63 Hz, Q 2.4, +2 dB

These settings were given to me for my PB12 Plus by @Ed Mullen . They added a very pleasant mid-bass response for movies.


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post #28687 of 31236 Old 07-29-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
That's excellent news with respect to the low-frequencies! I think that most of us upgrade for more low-frequency SPL, and the DSP in the Ultras really tries to emphasize that.

I have been experimenting with something lately that was discussed on the thread a week or so back. The PB16 and PB4000 have a 'Music' preset which adds a 2-3db boost centered at 63Hz. That is just about where most of us feel the strongest chest punch sensations. So far, I like using that setting for movies, although it was almost too much when I employed it with all of my subs on Tomb Raider last night. I will be experimenting for a while yet.

I don't remember exactly what the DSP options are on the PB13, but it would surprise me if there isn't something similar available to you. I have always liked using the extended mode for movie viewing, because I really like being able to maximize the low-frequency SPL and tactile response. But, I have found that the peak which SVS baked-into the Music preset at 63Hz makes the mid-bass, as a whole, seem relatively more prominent. Clearly, they knew what they were doing!

I think that it would be worth a try to see if your PB13's have any sort of preset like that. If not, I'm sure that you can add a boost yourself using the digital control. I don't believe that a modest boost centered at 63Hz will cost you a significant amount of low-bass headroom (although there will necessarily be a slight effect) and it might be something you will like.

Regards,
Mike

I don't see this "Music" preset in my PB 13 Ultra menu. I know zip about the PEQ etc I had to call and Ed at SVS and he told me where to set my 13U for my two channel stereo with my NAD pre/amp and amp. He matched my AVR settings so when I swap sub cables from AVR to NAD for recording from TT to R2R I don't have to adjust anything in the DSP. Now I wonder if there is MORE of a hit for mid bass from reading these posts. I need to learn how to really adjust the sub better now that I have owned it for several months now.
Louis
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post #28688 of 31236 Old 07-29-2018, 09:43 AM
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I don't see this "Music" preset in my PB 13 Ultra menu. I know zip about the PEQ etc I had to call and Ed at SVS and he told me where to set my 13U for my two channel stereo with my NAD pre/amp and amp. He matched my AVR settings so when I swap sub cables from AVR to NAD for recording from TT to R2R I don't have to adjust anything in the DSP. Now I wonder if there is MORE of a hit for mid bass from reading these posts. I need to learn how to really adjust the sub better now that I have owned it for several months now.
Louis
It's funny that you say this. I've had mine since November, and I'm still tweaking things. This is the first time that I ventured into the DSP setting, but I'm glad I did. Between the bump in gain that I added, and now the PEQ tweak, it has really come to life.

This sub is always giving me something new to smile about.
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post #28689 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 06:26 AM
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@DarkEnigma ,

Here are the settings that @mthomas47 is referring to if you need them.

PEQ1: 63 Hz, Q 2.0, +2 dB
PEQ2: 63 Hz, Q 2.4, +2 dB

These settings were given to me for my PB12 Plus by @Ed Mullen . They added a very pleasant mid-bass response for movies.


Darrell
I'll give it a shot! I already run my subs quite hot though so I'm not even sure I'll have the headroom for this peq to make a difference.
Does anyone know what the "movie" peq would be for the pb13?

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post #28690 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 07:01 AM
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I'll give it a shot! I already run my subs quite hot though so I'm not even sure I'll have the headroom for this peq to make a difference.
Does anyone know what the "movie" peq would be for the pb13?
For what’s worth, I have my gain set at -6db and running 3db hot, so I’d imagine that you’ll be okay. Only one way to find out. Lol

Just a side note...My room is 2160 cu. ft.. It does have a couple of openings though.

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post #28691 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 07:20 AM
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I'll give it a shot! I already run my subs quite hot though so I'm not even sure I'll have the headroom for this peq to make a difference.
Does anyone know what the "movie" peq would be for the pb13?
For what’s worth, I have my gain set at -6db and running 3db hot, so I’d imagine that you’ll be okay. Only one way to find out. Lol

Just a side note...My room is 2160 cu. ft.. It does have a couple of openings though.
My pb13s run at 0db gain at all times. I know I'll have the headroom for movies since I only watch at -10MV. But for music i go up to -5 and usually that's where the pb13s max out in regards to output. I wouldn't mind enabling/disabling the peq for movies versus music though.

Guess that's one scenario where the pb4000s features would be pretty convenient.

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post #28692 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 07:30 AM
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My pb13s run at 0db gain at all times. I know I'll have the headroom for movies since I only watch at -10MV. But for music i go up to -5 and usually that's where the pb13s max out in regards to output. I wouldn't mind enabling/disabling the peq for movies versus music though.

Guess that's one scenario where the pb4000s features would be pretty convenient.
Wait...you have the gain on the sub itself at 0db? How big is your room?

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post #28693 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 07:59 AM
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My pb13s run at 0db gain at all times. I know I'll have the headroom for movies since I only watch at -10MV. But for music i go up to -5 and usually that's where the pb13s max out in regards to output. I wouldn't mind enabling/disabling the peq for movies versus music though.

Guess that's one scenario where the pb4000s features would be pretty convenient.
Wait...you have the gain on the sub itself at 0db? How big is your room?
Yep! I mentioned it before but my room is about 6200ft^3(basement). I get around that by sitting close to the subs though.

I also run them at max because ed mullen suggested that you get the most dynamic output with the amps at max gain.

I'm also a senior in college atm(EE)and from what I learned in my electronics class on amp design last year the plate amps should be far more capable at amplifying a low frequency signal than an AVR. My AVR trim level is pretty low at -8. I do calibration at -10db on the plate amps and YPAO sets the trim to -2.5. So its only a 4.5db boost over what YPAO set, when you do the math.
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post #28694 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 09:14 AM
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Yep! I mentioned it before but my room is about 6200ft^3(basement). I get around that by sitting close to the subs though.

I also run them at max because ed mullen suggested that you get the most dynamic output with the amps at max gain.

I'm also a senior in college atm(EE)and from what I learned in my electronics class on amp design last year the plate amps should be far more capable at amplifying a low frequency signal than an AVR. My AVR trim level is pretty low at -8. I do calibration at -10db on the plate amps and YPAO sets the trim to -2.5. So its only a 4.5db boost over what YPAO set, when you do the math.
Gotcha! I don’t recall seeing the room size. That is a pretty large space for sure.

I also calibrated mine with a -10 trim. I bump it 3db for movies, and 6-7db for music. It really depends on what I’m listening to though. Sometimes it’s a little less. Although, I’m hoping to upgrade my AVR soon to Denon or Marantz to be able to have the sub calibration. For now I’ll just have to keep chugging along with the Onkyo. Lol

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post #28695 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 09:56 AM
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I have a SVS PC-2000 sub that I need to put in storage and I believe I heard that SVS will sell their shipping boxes, is this correct?

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post #28696 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 11:22 AM
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Yep! I mentioned it before but my room is about 6200ft^3(basement). I get around that by sitting close to the subs though.

I also run them at max because ed mullen suggested that you get the most dynamic output with the amps at max gain.

I'm also a senior in college atm(EE)and from what I learned in my electronics class on amp design last year the plate amps should be far more capable at amplifying a low frequency signal than an AVR. My AVR trim level is pretty low at -8. I do calibration at -10db on the plate amps and YPAO sets the trim to -2.5. So its only a 4.5db boost over what YPAO set, when you do the math.
Hi,

I posted on the Guide thread about a technique that might buy you just a little more headroom, and some more mid-bass clarity into the bargain. It is called cascading crossovers. The way to implement it, for PB13's, is defined quite specifically in Post 405 on this page:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56569516

There is a more detailed explanation of what is happening when we use cascading crossovers, as well as my own experience in trying it, in a new subsection of Section III of the Guide linked in my signature. If you decide to try the technique, I would be quite interested in hearing your subsequent impressions of it.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I just realized that with YPAO, you may not be able to change your LPF of LFE. You could still try cascading crossovers with your LPF set at the default 120Hz, though. Setting independent LPF's, in your subwoofers themselves, would still control the frequencies the subwoofers play, although you wouldn't get a doubling in slope for the LFE channel.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I posted on the Guide thread about a technique that might buy you just a little more headroom, and some more mid-bass clarity into the bargain. It is called cascading crossovers. The way to implement it, for PB13's, is defined quite specifically in Post 405 on this page:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56569516

There is a more detailed explanation of what is happening when we use cascading crossovers, as well as my own experience in trying it, in a new subsection of Section III of the Guide linked in my signature. If you decide to try the technique, I would be quite interested in hearing your subsequent impressions of it.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I just realized that with YPAO, you may not be able to change your LPF of LFE. You could still try cascading crossovers with your LPF set at the default 120Hz, though. Setting independent LPF's, in your subwoofers themselves, would still control the frequencies the subwoofers play, although you wouldn't get a doubling in slope for the LFE channel.
I'm going to try it. Theoretically I have nothing to lose or something to gain by setting the low pass filter (which is actually 125hz max on the PB13U). I'll let you know if I hear any difference.
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post #28698 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
@DarkEnigma ,

Here are the settings that @mthomas47 is referring to if you need them.

PEQ1: 63 Hz, Q 2.0, +2 dB
PEQ2: 63 Hz, Q 2.4, +2 dB

These settings were given to me for my PB12 Plus by @Ed Mullen . They added a very pleasant mid-bass response for movies.


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I'm trying this. I'm lacking midbass with my dual cylinders. Low frequencies I'm fine with. I can hit 16hz no problem.
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I posted on the Guide thread about a technique that might buy you just a little more headroom, and some more mid-bass clarity into the bargain. It is called cascading crossovers. The way to implement it, for PB13's, is defined quite specifically in Post 405 on this page:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56569516

There is a more detailed explanation of what is happening when we use cascading crossovers, as well as my own experience in trying it, in a new subsection of Section III of the Guide linked in my signature. If you decide to try the technique, I would be quite interested in hearing your subsequent impressions of it.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: I just realized that with YPAO, you may not be able to change your LPF of LFE. You could still try cascading crossovers with your LPF set at the default 120Hz, though. Setting independent LPF's, in your subwoofers themselves, would still control the frequencies the subwoofers play, although you wouldn't get a doubling in slope for the LFE channel.

No audible difference for me with the 125hz low pass! Guess I'll just turn it off for now. Didn't see much of a difference(beyond random variances) in REW either, which I guess is good testament to Yamaha's crossover. But while listening I decided to just turn things up to see where the 13Us would give me max output(and how much headroom I really had compared to my normal listening volumes) and it was unbelievable to be honest. Pb 12 plus gain matched used to see a max output of 122, at -7 on the MV. The 13Us went to -2 and clipped the UMIK-1 but recorded 127.9 on my SPL meter.

Set off my house alarm and it was damn intense. Going to reference seemed to start giving me .2/.4 db increments instead of a full db, so I guess that's all they had in the tank. It's damn sure more than I'll ever need though.
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post #28700 of 31236 Old 07-31-2018, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I posted on the Guide thread about a technique that might buy you just a little more headroom, and some more mid-bass clarity into the bargain. It is called cascading crossovers. The way to implement it, for PB13's, is defined quite specifically in Post 405 on this page:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...l#post56569516

There is a more detailed explanation of what is happening when we use cascading crossovers, as well as my own experience in trying it, in a new subsection of Section III of the Guide linked in my signature. If you decide to try the technique, I would be quite interested in hearing your subsequent impressions of it.

Regards,
Mike



Edit: I just realized that with YPAO, you may not be able to change your LPF of LFE. You could still try cascading crossovers with your LPF set at the default 120Hz, though. Setting independent LPF's, in your subwoofers themselves, would still control the frequencies the subwoofers play, although you wouldn't get a doubling in slope for the LFE channel.

I just read through this section, and I believe I have a better understanding of this method. With that being said, I have a few questions that I'd like to ask before trying this in my setup.

1) After calibration with my Onkyo, it set my LCR, which have a 60Hz rating, to 70Hz (iirc across all 3), and I bumped them to 80Hz. Would it be recommended to have a 90Hz XO being that they have only 6.5" drivers in them?

2) If I were to set the speaker's XO's to 90Hz, Would you recommend that I match LPF setting in the sub to 90 or just go with 100Hz?

3) Before doing any of this, would it be wise to reset the PEQ settings back to default?

4) Should I even be jacking with this in the first place with only having bookshelfs with 6.5" drivers?

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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
I just read through this section, and I believe I have a better understanding of this method. With that being said, I have a few questions that I'd like to ask before trying this in my setup.

1) After calibration with my Onkyo, it set my LCR, which have a 60Hz rating, to 70Hz (iirc across all 3), and I bumped them to 80Hz. Would it be recommended to have a 90Hz XO being that they have only 6.5" drivers in them?

2) If I were to set the speaker's XO's to 90Hz, Would you recommend that I match LPF setting in the sub to 90 or just go with 100Hz?

3) Before doing any of this, would it be wise to reset the PEQ settings back to default?

4) Should I even be jacking with this in the first place with only having bookshelfs with 6.5" drivers?

Hi,

To answer Question 4) first, I honestly don't know. You could probably get a better match to your subwoofers with a little larger speaker. But, you certainly shouldn't be doing the speakers any harm if you tried cascading crossovers. All you would be doing would be rolling-off the subwoofers a little more aggressively. If I were you, I would probably be running those speakers with a 90Hz or 100Hz crossover, anyway though. I would typically recommend setting crossovers about 1/2 octave higher than the initial AVR setting. That gives you a little more headroom. And, I wouldn't be pushing those speakers to very loud volume levels.

I probably would go back to the default PEQ, just so it doesn't muddle things. You can always add it back once you decide how you like the cascading crossovers, and what your preferred target frequency should be. But, you don't want too many variables to listen to all at the same time.

You still might get just a little more clarity in your system, if you set 100Hz crossovers and then matched that with a 100Hz LPF of LFE, and backed the subwoofer low-pass filters down to 100Hz, as well. That's really what you are trying to achieve with cascading crossovers--additional clarity in the sound. Anything else is a bonus.

If you have already been operating those speakers with an 80Hz crossover, then trying this with matching 90Hz crossovers would still be okay. I would not personally go below 90Hz with crossovers for those speakers. But, you could try both 90Hz all the way around (including the LPF of LFE) and with 100Hz all around, and see which you like better. Give yourself some time with it. This is really more about sound quality than it is about quantity. And determining what you like best may take some patience, switching things back-and-forth a few times, and living with the settings for a while, to decide.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #28702 of 31236 Old 08-01-2018, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

To answer Question 4) first, I honestly don't know. You could probably get a better match to your subwoofers with a little larger speaker. But, you certainly shouldn't be doing the speakers any harm if you tried cascading crossovers. All you would be doing would be rolling-off the subwoofers a little more aggressively. If I were you, I would probably be running those speakers with a 90Hz or 100Hz crossover, anyway though. I would typically recommend setting crossovers about 1/2 octave higher than the initial AVR setting. That gives you a little more headroom. And, I wouldn't be pushing those speakers to very loud volume levels.

I probably would go back to the default PEQ, just so it doesn't muddle things. You can always add it back once you decide how you like the cascading crossovers, and what your preferred target frequency should be. But, you don't want too many variables to listen to all at the same time.

You still might get just a little more clarity in your system, if you set 100Hz crossovers and then matched that with a 100Hz LPF of LFE, and backed the subwoofer low-pass filters down to 100Hz, as well. That's really what you are trying to achieve with cascading crossovers--additional clarity in the sound. Anything else is a bonus.

If you have already been operating those speakers with an 80Hz crossover, then trying this with matching 90Hz crossovers would still be okay. I would not personally go below 90Hz with crossovers for those speakers. But, you could try both 90Hz all the way around (including the LPF of LFE) and with 100Hz all around, and see which you like better. Give yourself some time with it. This is really more about sound quality than it is about quantity. And determining what you like best may take some patience, switching things back-and-forth a few times, and living with the settings for a while, to decide.

Regards,
Mike
I'm not the OP, but isn't it a bit of a generalisation to say that you do not recommend a crossover below 90Hz for bookshelf's with a 6.5" driver? I mean, using the SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers as an example, which have a 6.5" driver, the subwoofer matching tool on the SVS website recommends a 60Hz crossover, I believe. My Monitor Audio RX1 bookshelf speakers which have a 6" driver were set to Large by Audyssey, after which I manually set them to small with a crossover of 80Hz. It seems like you'd recommend a crossover of at least 90Hz for me?
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post #28704 of 31236 Old 08-01-2018, 01:37 PM
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I'm not the OP, but isn't it a bit of a generalisation to say that you do not recommend a crossover below 90Hz for bookshelf's with a 6.5" driver? I mean, using the SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers as an example, which have a 6.5" driver, the subwoofer matching tool on the SVS website recommends a 60Hz crossover, I believe. My Monitor Audio RX1 bookshelf speakers which have a 6" driver were set to Large by Audyssey, after which I manually set them to small with a crossover of 80Hz. It seems like you'd recommend a crossover of at least 90Hz for me?
I have Klipsch towers and currently using a 100hz crossover. Was using 120hz with my previous AVR. If you have good subs they'll have more output up through 120hz than most speakers so unless localization is an issue it makes some sense to use the extra mid-bass.

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post #28705 of 31236 Old 08-01-2018, 02:06 PM
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I have Klipsch towers and currently using a 100hz crossover. Was using 120hz with my previous AVR. If you have good subs they'll have more output up through 120hz than most speakers so unless localization is an issue it makes some sense to use the extra mid-bass.
Yeah, my subwoofer will likely have stronger output even in the 90-120Hz range. I have a PB-1000. One of the reasons I'm using a crossover that's not too high is because I have it very nearfield which makes localisation more of an issue but I might play about with higher crossovers to see if I like the change. I bought a UMIK-1 a while ago but I've yet to do a measurement.

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post #28706 of 31236 Old 08-01-2018, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Ferrari_1996 View Post
I'm not the OP, but isn't it a bit of a generalisation to say that you do not recommend a crossover below 90Hz for bookshelf's with a 6.5" driver? I mean, using the SVS Ultra Bookshelf speakers as an example, which have a 6.5" driver, the subwoofer matching tool on the SVS website recommends a 60Hz crossover, I believe. My Monitor Audio RX1 bookshelf speakers which have a 6" driver were set to Large by Audyssey, after which I manually set them to small with a crossover of 80Hz. It seems like you'd recommend a crossover of at least 90Hz for me?

Hi,

I definitely think that would be a generalization, but that's not really what I was saying. Manufacturer's specifications and subwoofer matching tools can be helpful in providing some general guidance. But, it's really the speaker's placement in a room, and it's interaction with the room at that location, that determines the speaker's low-frequency response.

So, I'm not really making a generalization about 6.5" woofers at all, although I did read a review of the OP's speakers before replying. But, I am specifically reacting to the fact that his Yamaha measured the frequency response of those speakers and assigned a 70Hz crossover. Ideally, I would want to go up about a half octave from that initial setting, because YPAO is measuring where the speakers are rolling-off by 3db and setting the next crossover up from that. If they are already down in volume by 3db at ~60 or 65Hz, then I would like to give them some more headroom. 90Hz is as low as I would personally go in that case.

Your own situation is a completely different one. In your case, your measured in-room response puts your speakers a little under 40Hz--perhaps at about 35-38Hz. The FR is just low enough that your AVR used a Large setting rather than a 40Hz crossover. So, when you set them to 80Hz, you actually gave yourself a full octave of additional headroom, which was a very good idea. (Each doubling of a frequency constitutes an octave.) FWIW, I think that speakers which have frequency responses higher up in the 60-80Hz range need less protection than speakers which measure in the 30-50Hz range.

What I mean by that is that a speaker that has a measured in-room roll-off point (F3) of about 35Hz or 40Hz, is going to benefit much more from an 80Hz or higher crossover (a full octave) than a speaker which measures 60Hz is going to benefit from a 120Hz crossover. That's because frequencies below about 60Hz to 80Hz put much more strain on the woofers in our speakers, especially as we increase our master volume, than the frequencies above 80Hz do. And, of course, our subwoofers are nearly always going to handle <80Hz frequencies better than our speakers will, anyway.

So, it's hard to come up with a single hard-and-fast rule, and I typically try to make crossover recommendations on a case-by-case basis, depending on the actual in-room response of a speaker. But, when in doubt, I would suggest that erring on the side of caution is a good idea. In your case, you have already done that. In the OP's case, I thought that just a little bit more caution was advisable.

Regards,
Mike
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* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
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post #28707 of 31236 Old 08-01-2018, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I definitely think that would be a generalization, but that's not really what I was saying. Manufacturer's specifications and subwoofer matching tools can be helpful in providing some general guidance. But, it's really the speaker's placement in a room, and it's interaction with the room at that location, that determines the speaker's low-frequency response.

So, I'm not really making a generalization about 6.5" woofers at all, although I did read a review of the OP's speakers before replying. But, I am specifically reacting to the fact that his Yamaha measured the frequency response of those speakers and assigned a 70Hz crossover. Ideally, I would want to go up about a half octave from that initial setting, because YPAO is measuring where the speakers are rolling-off by 3db and setting the next crossover up from that. If they are already down in volume by 3db at ~60 or 65Hz, then I would like to give them some more headroom. 90Hz is as low as I would personally go in that case.

Your own situation is a completely different one. In your case, your measured in-room response puts your speakers a little under 40Hz--perhaps at about 35-38Hz. The FR is just low enough that your AVR used a Large setting rather than a 40Hz crossover. So, when you set them to 80Hz, you actually gave yourself a full octave of additional headroom, which was a very good idea. (Each doubling of a frequency constitutes an octave.) FWIW, I think that speakers which have frequency responses higher up in the 60-80Hz range need less protection than speakers which measure in the 30-50Hz range.

What I mean by that is that a speaker that has a measured in-room roll-off point (F3) of about 35Hz or 40Hz, is going to benefit much more from an 80Hz or higher crossover (a full octave) than a speaker which measures 60Hz is going to benefit from a 120Hz crossover. That's because frequencies below about 60Hz to 80Hz put much more strain on the woofers in our speakers, especially as we increase our master volume, than the frequencies above 80Hz do. And, of course, our subwoofers are nearly always going to handle <80Hz frequencies better than our speakers will, anyway.

So, it's hard to come up with a single hard-and-fast rule, and I typically try to make crossover recommendations on a case-by-case basis, depending on the actual in-room response of a speaker. But, when in doubt, I would suggest that erring on the side of caution is a good idea. In your case, you have already done that. In the OP's case, I thought that just a little bit more caution was advisable.

Regards,
Mike
First of all, I'd like to apologise for assuming that you were generalising. I didn't see the post where he mentioned his Yamaha assigning a 70Hz crossover. With regards to my situation, Audyssey either set my speakers to Large or assigned a 40Hz crossover (I think it was the former, I'm pretty sure you can check and I may do that tomorrow).

On a side note, my room is absolutely terrible when it comes to bass. The reason my PB-1000 is right next to my chair (see the picture in my previous post) is because there's a lack of bass if I place it elsewhere. I literally can't tell that the sub is on if I stand near my speakers (I'm not exaggerating and it's not like my room is big). My room is the attic/loft and I'm guessing the type of ceiling is partly (or solely) responsible for the bass problem. Before I bought the sub, I wasn't satisfied with the bass response from my speakers in my listening position unless I stood on the stairs leading to my room, so there's definitely a problem with my room.

EDIT: Attached a picture of my ceiling.
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post #28708 of 31236 Old 08-01-2018, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

To answer Question 4) first, I honestly don't know. You could probably get a better match to your subwoofers with a little larger speaker. But, you certainly shouldn't be doing the speakers any harm if you tried cascading crossovers. All you would be doing would be rolling-off the subwoofers a little more aggressively. If I were you, I would probably be running those speakers with a 90Hz or 100Hz crossover, anyway though. I would typically recommend setting crossovers about 1/2 octave higher than the initial AVR setting. That gives you a little more headroom. And, I wouldn't be pushing those speakers to very loud volume levels.

I probably would go back to the default PEQ, just so it doesn't muddle things. You can always add it back once you decide how you like the cascading crossovers, and what your preferred target frequency should be. But, you don't want too many variables to listen to all at the same time.

You still might get just a little more clarity in your system, if you set 100Hz crossovers and then matched that with a 100Hz LPF of LFE, and backed the subwoofer low-pass filters down to 100Hz, as well. That's really what you are trying to achieve with cascading crossovers--additional clarity in the sound. Anything else is a bonus.

If you have already been operating those speakers with an 80Hz crossover, then trying this with matching 90Hz crossovers would still be okay. I would not personally go below 90Hz with crossovers for those speakers. But, you could try both 90Hz all the way around (including the LPF of LFE) and with 100Hz all around, and see which you like better. Give yourself some time with it. This is really more about sound quality than it is about quantity. And determining what you like best may take some patience, switching things back-and-forth a few times, and living with the settings for a while, to decide.

Regards,
Mike
Okay...I do believe we have a winner!

I set everything to 100Hz across the board (excluding surrounds). I was able to notice a substantial difference as soon as I changed the XO's in the AVR (LCR/sub). Much more mid-bass just with that. Then after changing the LPF on the the sub, it really smoothed things out. And yes, my CC sounds MUCH cleaner.

I demoed the intro scene to Kong Skull Island...AWESOME!! Then the battle scene in Rampage...the 1st Croc roar was EXTREMELY AWESOME!!! Then, just out of curiousity, I bumped up the sub gain, but it was just too much. After doing this, I played the scene towards the end of Ready Player One, and the driver was flapping like crazy. Lol...NOPE! Although, the race scene sounded fantastic. But the gain was just fine where it was, so I changed it back.

The only real downside to all of this is, now I want a pair of 18's.

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post #28709 of 31236 Old 08-03-2018, 04:51 PM
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Curious. The pb13U claims to do 3600W+ peak, which should ~3db to its RMS numbers. Anyone actually know/test how that works? How long the caps take to charge....etc?

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post #28710 of 31236 Old 08-03-2018, 06:06 PM
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Okay...I do believe we have a winner!

I set everything to 100Hz across the board (excluding surrounds). I was able to notice a substantial difference as soon as I changed the XO's in the AVR (LCR/sub). Much more mid-bass just with that. Then after changing the LPF on the the sub, it really smoothed things out. And yes, my CC sounds MUCH cleaner.

I demoed the intro scene to Kong Skull Island...AWESOME!! Then the battle scene in Rampage...the 1st Croc roar was EXTREMELY AWESOME!!! Then, just out of curiousity, I bumped up the sub gain, but it was just too much. After doing this, I played the scene towards the end of Ready Player One, and the driver was flapping like crazy. Lol...NOPE! Although, the race scene sounded fantastic. But the gain was just fine where it was, so I changed it back.

The only real downside to all of this is, now I want a pair of 18's.

LOL


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