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post #29431 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim1290 View Post
Hi SVS owners,

Please help me out!

How many SB4000 or PC4000 ( in sealed mode only!! ) do I need to replace my current subs? I have one Rythmik FV25HP in front right corner, and two Klipsch R-115SW behind sofa, in an L shaped living room a bit more than 50m2.
I can stack SB4000 in front right corner, and place two more behind sofa. Can PC4000 be stacked? Since it's ports are on the top.

The reason for change is that we have got a new family member, a puppy
And so I needed to free sup a bit space, and SVS SB4000 or PC4000 are two with small footprint.
There is another option, REL 212SE, but that's not right place to ask it here.
Another reason is I want to try out sealed subs, but with small footprint.

Thank you all very much for your time!

Cheers,
Jim

Hi Jim,

I'm probably not going to be much help here, but I will try anyway. First, I wouldn't try putting PC4000's on top of each other. I think they have a fairly rigid structure, but I wouldn't try that. The real advantage with those subs is how little floor area they consume. Surely your puppy doesn't need that much extra space. I also wouldn't buy PC4000's just to run them in sealed mode, if I were you. You could stack the sealed SB4000's if you wanted to, although I think you might want to put something between them to protect the finish.

I think you already know that when you put two subwoofers close together, you will get the benefit of having the full 6db more output at every frequency. But, you will lose the benefit of engaging room modes differently, to help smooth-out peaks and dips in the frequency response. So, stacking two subwoofers, in a large room, wouldn't be my first choice.

But, there is a larger issue, in my opinion. The FV25HP is an extremely powerful ported subwoofer with a very low tuning point. (From all reports, it sounds much more like a sealed sub than a ported one, but it still has a lot of low-bass SPL.) And, both the Klipsch 15's are also ported subwoofers. So, you are accustomed to getting a lot of low-frequency SPL (absent the possibility of some cancellation) in your roughly 4500 to 5500^3 room. (That's with a ceiling height between a low of 8' and a high of 10'.) There is going to be a great deal of difference in the low-frequency output between what you are currently accustomed to, and that of a couple of sealed subwoofers, in a room that size.

I don't know whether you have already sold your current subwoofers or not. You might want to start by selling the Klipsch subs, as you are probably experiencing some cancellation now, at about the tuning points of those subs, and below, due to the difference between their tuning point and that of the FV25. Then, you might try a PC4000 or two, on approval, in both sealed and ported mode. Ultimately, you should buy whatever subs you like best, whether they are sealed or ported. But, trying the PC4000's will at least let you compare the ported and sealed modes head-to-head in your room.

I hope this helps a little.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #29432 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim1290 View Post
Hi SVS owners,

Please help me out!

How many SB4000 or PC4000 ( in sealed mode only!! ) do I need to replace my current subs? I have one Rythmik FV25HP in front right corner, and two Klipsch R-115SW behind sofa, in an L shaped living room a bit more than 50m2.
I can stack SB4000 in front right corner, and place two more behind sofa. Can PC4000 be stacked? Since it's ports are on the top.

The reason for change is that we have got a new family member, a puppy
And so I needed to free sup a bit space, and SVS SB4000 or PC4000 are two with small footprint.
There is another option, REL 212SE, but that's not right place to ask it here.
Another reason is I want to try out sealed subs, but with small footprint.

Thank you all very much for your time!


Cheers,
Jim
Hi Jim- I've got 2 SB 4000's and I am returning mine not because of the subs, but because my home itself. U can scroll up a bit and see what I mean. That being said, for your size living room, 2 SB 4000's should work really well. The PC 4000's are 92 pounds, and I would be concerned stacking those big cylinders. Even if you didn't use the grill, I don't think it would be very sturdy sitting on top of each other. Check out this youtube video on an in depth review on the PC 4000.

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post #29433 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 01:03 PM
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TY again for all the comments and recommendations to my earlier posts above on the SB 4000 to PB 4000 upgrade and Mike and others for the tips with crossovers, etc. I will definitely try it out when I get the new subs. Woke up this morning and I don't know if it's just guys like us, simply wanting the best or never being satisfied, but I talked myself into just going for dual PB 16 Ultras.

I just thought, what I really want is to feel the base, impact and "experience". My large living room and layout is terrible for room acoustics, so I need subs, to counteract my home's short comings. PB 4000 is definitely a step up from the SB 4000's.... Why not just go PB 16 ultras for ONLY 1200$ more? Wish me luck on Monday fellas.... =)
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post #29434 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 02:28 PM
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TY again for all the comments and recommendations to my earlier posts above on the SB 4000 to PB 4000 upgrade and Mike and others for the tips with crossovers, etc. I will definitely try it out when I get the new subs. Woke up this morning and I don't know if it's just guys like us, simply wanting the best or never being satisfied, but I talked myself into just going for dual PB 16 Ultras.

I just thought, what I really want is to feel the base, impact and "experience". My large living room and layout is terrible for room acoustics, so I need subs, to counteract my home's short comings. PB 4000 is definitely a step up from the SB 4000's.... Why not just go PB 16 ultras for ONLY 1200$ more? Wish me luck on Monday fellas.... =)

Then, Good Luck for Monday, a PB16 will be awesome

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Originally Posted by Islandborn View Post
Hi Jim- I've got 2 SB 4000's and I am returning mine not because of the subs, but because my home itself. U can scroll up a bit and see what I mean. That being said, for your size living room, 2 SB 4000's should work really well. The PC 4000's are 92 pounds, and I would be concerned stacking those big cylinders. Even if you didn't use the grill, I don't think it would be very sturdy sitting on top of each other. Check out this youtube video on an in depth review on the PC 4000.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL1Z5OH_cSI

I also agree for not stacking them, as mention previously by @mthomas47, and now you.
A small bump on the bottom one, from the new puppy. Would result in a disaster


Ray
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post #29435 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 03:41 PM
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Then, Good Luck for Monday, a PB16 will be awesome




I also agree for not stacking them, as mention previously by @mthomas47, and now you.
A small bump on the bottom one, from the new puppy. Would result in a disaster


Ray
AGREED and thanks Ray!

Darth, Mike, AudioC and any others- For my living room setup with the 4500CF open space and tile floors, do you guys think 2 of the PB 16 ultras will be that much of an improvement over 2 PB 4000's? I spoke with the SVS MAN , Mr. ED himself and this is what he said in an email reply when I told him about my issues with my 2 SB 4000 purchase and my home layout(I initially emailed SVS inquiring about upgrading to either the PB 4000 or SB 16U)----


Email Quote from Ed

A: Compared to dual SB-4000s, dual SB16-Ultras will add about 3.0-3.5 dB (roughly 50%) more headroom across the entire bandwidth with a marginally larger cabinet. This is typical for a sealed vs. sealed comparison where the larger driver, larger cabinet and more powerful amp add a few dB of headroom. Conversely, compared to dual SB-4000s, dual PB-4000s will add 6-12 dB (200-400%) more headroom in t.he 18-36 Hz octave (where LFE content is strong on action/sci-fi soundtracks), at the expense of a considerably deeper footprint. This is typical for a sealed vs. ported comparison where the driver and amp are the same size/power, but the porting and much larger cabinet volume of the ported model deliver a massive output advantage in the deeper octave. Subjectively this translates into considerably more slam/impact/pressure on LFE scenes, especially in large open room layouts. In a living room application, lifestyle considerations like overall size, footprint, visual impact and decor integration will always compete with overall subwoofer performance - particularly max output in the deepest octave. If the PB-4000s are simply too big for your lifestyle and decor considerations, then the SB16-Ultra will absolutely provide a very noticeable upgrade in overall performance. Ed M - SVS

So, I would gather that a PB 16 ultra would be roughly 3.0-4.0 dB's over the 4000? Just wondering if it would be worth the 1200$ expense?

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post #29436 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Islandborn View Post
AGREED and thanks Ray!

Darth, Mike, AudioC and any others- For my living room setup with the 4500CF open space and tile floors, do you guys think 2 of the PB 16 ultras will be that much of an improvement over 2 PB 4000's? I spoke with the SVS MAN , Mr. ED himself and this is what he said in an email reply when I told him about my issues with my 2 SB 4000 purchase and my home layout(I initially emailed SVS inquiring about upgrading to either the PB 4000 or SB 16U)----


Email Quote from Ed

A: Compared to dual SB-4000s, dual SB16-Ultras will add about 3.0-3.5 dB (roughly 50%) more headroom across the entire bandwidth with a marginally larger cabinet. This is typical for a sealed vs. sealed comparison where the larger driver, larger cabinet and more powerful amp add a few dB of headroom. Conversely, compared to dual SB-4000s, dual PB-4000s will add 6-12 dB (200-400%) more headroom in t.he 18-36 Hz octave (where LFE content is strong on action/sci-fi soundtracks), at the expense of a considerably deeper footprint. This is typical for a sealed vs. ported comparison where the driver and amp are the same size/power, but the porting and much larger cabinet volume of the ported model deliver a massive output advantage in the deeper octave. Subjectively this translates into considerably more slam/impact/pressure on LFE scenes, especially in large open room layouts. In a living room application, lifestyle considerations like overall size, footprint, visual impact and decor integration will always compete with overall subwoofer performance - particularly max output in the deepest octave. If the PB-4000s are simply too big for your lifestyle and decor considerations, then the SB16-Ultra will absolutely provide a very noticeable upgrade in overall performance. Ed M - SVS

So, I would gather that a PB 16 ultra would be roughly 3.0-4.0 dB's over the 4000? Just wondering if it would be worth the 1200$ expense?

First of all, I agree that moving to the PB4000's would be a far more significant upgrade than moving to dual SB16's. Once you are upgrading from the PB4000's to the PB16's, however, the upgrade becomes much more incremental. The PB16's are low-frequency specialists, which will have about 3db more output than the PB4000's, but only from 35Hz down. To be fair, that is where we pay more for output: below about 35Hz.

If you are located where you can take advantage of SVS's full Customer Bill-of-Rights, I would recommend that you start with the PB4000's and see what you think. They will offer you a huge increase in low-bass and ULF TR (tactile response) over what you have now. And, they may be enough. If so, you save a good bit of money. If not, you can always upgrade to the PB16's for free, within the first 45-days, or by paying just return shipping on the PB4000's, within the first year.

Regards,
Mike
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #29437 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
First of all, I agree that moving to the PB4000's would be a far more significant upgrade than moving to dual SB16's. Once you are upgrading from the PB4000's to the PB16's, however, the upgrade becomes much more incremental. The PB16's are low-frequency specialists, which will have about 3db more output than the PB4000's, but only from 35Hz down. To be fair, that is where we pay more for output: below about 35Hz.

If you are located where you can take advantage of SVS's full Customer Bill-of-Rights, I would recommend that you start with the PB4000's and see what you think. They will offer you a huge increase in low-bass and ULF TR (tactile response) over what you have now. And, they may be enough. If so, you save a good bit of money. If not, you can always upgrade to the PB16's for free, within the first 45-days, or by paying just return shipping on the PB4000's, within the first year.

Regards,
Mike
As always, thanks again Mike for your valuable feedback. You just made my decision though that much harder. LOL I honestly want to go just for the PB 4000's, and save the cash but of course, bigger always sounds better and I don't want buyer's remorse. This is my first time going into higher end subs(I know there are even more expensive) but want to make sure I am satisfied with my purchase.

This is my first time buying an SVS product and I am aware that their Customer service is first rate and the "bill of rights" is just an added awesome bonus! I have heard that SVS is a little price heavy versus other subs in their category, but I guess the "Bill of rights" helps to justify the extra $$.

Another reason I wanted to just get the biggest and best is that HOLY $#@^, the SB 4000's were bad enough getting out of the box and setting up. My forearms are still cursing at me. I can just imagine PB 4000 unboxing and setup and then PB 16 Ultra unboxing, etc.. Haha. makes me exhausted just thinking about it! Time to go OCD and waste more hours trying to make my mind up and decide! Have a good weekend all!
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post #29438 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
First of all, I agree that moving to the PB4000's would be a far more significant upgrade than moving to dual SB16's. Once you are upgrading from the PB4000's to the PB16's, however, the upgrade becomes much more incremental. The PB16's are low-frequency specialists, which will have about 3db more output than the PB4000's, but only from 35Hz down. To be fair, that is where we pay more for output: below about 35Hz.

If you are located where you can take advantage of SVS's full Customer Bill-of-Rights, I would recommend that you start with the PB4000's and see what you think. They will offer you a huge increase in low-bass and ULF TR (tactile response) over what you have now. And, they may be enough. If so, you save a good bit of money. If not, you can always upgrade to the PB16's for free, within the first 45-days, or by paying just return shipping on the PB4000's, within the first year.

Regards,
Mike
Very much agree with having a port sub sub/s, over the seal version.
This is a big space to fill.

Also, a thank you. Finaly finding out, what TR stand for

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AGREED and thanks Ray!

Darth, Mike, AudioC and any others- For my living room setup with the 4500CF open space and tile floors, do you guys think 2 of the PB 16 ultras will be that much of an improvement over 2 PB 4000's? I spoke with the SVS MAN , Mr. ED himself and this is what he said in an email reply when I told him about my issues with my 2 SB 4000 purchase and my home layout(I initially emailed SVS inquiring about upgrading to either the PB 4000 or SB 16U)----


Email Quote from Ed

A: Compared to dual SB-4000s, dual SB16-Ultras will add about 3.0-3.5 dB (roughly 50%) more headroom across the entire bandwidth with a marginally larger cabinet. This is typical for a sealed vs. sealed comparison where the larger driver, larger cabinet and more powerful amp add a few dB of headroom. Conversely, compared to dual SB-4000s, dual PB-4000s will add 6-12 dB (200-400%) more headroom in t.he 18-36 Hz octave (where LFE content is strong on action/sci-fi soundtracks), at the expense of a considerably deeper footprint. This is typical for a sealed vs. ported comparison where the driver and amp are the same size/power, but the porting and much larger cabinet volume of the ported model deliver a massive output advantage in the deeper octave. Subjectively this translates into considerably more slam/impact/pressure on LFE scenes, especially in large open room layouts. In a living room application, lifestyle considerations like overall size, footprint, visual impact and decor integration will always compete with overall subwoofer performance - particularly max output in the deepest octave. If the PB-4000s are simply too big for your lifestyle and decor considerations, then the SB16-Ultra will absolutely provide a very noticeable upgrade in overall performance. Ed M - SVS

So, I would gather that a PB 16 ultra would be roughly 3.0-4.0 dB's over the 4000? Just wondering if it would be worth the 1200$ expense?
In my opinion, Yes since it is a big area to fill

While I never heard them, I am a proud owner of dual PB13, very close to the PB4000, and still serve me well.
That said, my room is much smaller than yours, around 1800^ft.

Also a big believer, to get the best sub available for someone Budget. Even if it mean a single sub at the moment, and wait to get a second one later. Time do fly fast, when saving for a new toy


Ray
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post #29439 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 06:07 PM
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As always, thanks again Mike for your valuable feedback. You just made my decision though that much harder. LOL I honestly want to go just for the PB 4000's, and save the cash but of course, bigger always sounds better and I don't want buyer's remorse. This is my first time going into higher end subs(I know there are even more expensive) but want to make sure I am satisfied with my purchase.

This is my first time buying an SVS product and I am aware that their Customer service is first rate and the "bill of rights" is just an added awesome bonus! I have heard that SVS is a little price heavy versus other subs in their category, but I guess the "Bill of rights" helps to justify the extra $$.

Another reason I wanted to just get the biggest and best is that HOLY $#@^, the SB 4000's were bad enough getting out of the box and setting up. My forearms are still cursing at me. I can just imagine PB 4000 unboxing and setup and then PB 16 Ultra unboxing, etc.. Haha. makes me exhausted just thinking about it! Time to go OCD and waste more hours trying to make my mind up and decide! Have a good weekend all!

All worth-it, in the long run

A single one of my sub, weight more than I do


Ray
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post #29440 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 06:47 PM
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All worth-it, in the long run

A single one of my sub, weight more than I do


Ray

Ray...that can be fixed! A very wealthy man I know has good health and just about everything he wants and needs shared with me recently that the only thing he looks forward to is to enjoy many good meals!
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post #29441 of 31770 Old 11-03-2018, 07:29 PM
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Ray...that can be fixed! A very wealthy man I know has good health and just about everything he wants and needs shared with me recently that the only thing he looks forward to is to enjoy many good meals!

LOL

So do I, my wife keep cooking so much, that I cannot keep with-it, for eating left over at work
And within a day or two cook another big meal, for a whole family, with only the two of us.
And move a lot, the reason I do not gain weight, always on the move


Ray
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LOL


So do I, my wife keep cooking so much, that I cannot keep with-it, for eating left over at work
And within a day or two cook another big meal, for a whole family, with only the two of us.
And move a lot, the reason I do not gain weight

In the long run...much healthier this way! And it sounds like we're very lucky in that we both enjoy this hobby and have understanding and caring wives!
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Question for the 4000 series owners here. One of the big selling points is the controls that the sub provides, but I wonder how many are using those versus just letting the receiver/processor handle everything.
I have a 25-31pc-plus and am thinking about upgrading to a PC-2000 or PC-4000.

Thanks in advance.
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Question for the 4000 series owners here. One of the big selling points is the controls that the sub provides, but I wonder how many are using those versus just letting the receiver/processor handle everything.
I have a 25-31pc-plus and am thinking about upgrading to a PC-2000 or PC-4000.

Thanks in advance.
I have the SB 4000's for now until Monday when I order the PB 4000's. The app is cool and works really well. But, as you say, most of us use LFE and let the AVR handle the processing and once running Audyssey, I really don't see myself messing with my settings. I will say that it is nice though to use my Iphone to turn the logo on and off and mess with the settings if I want to
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Thank you gentlemen.

It was a silly question about stacking the PC4000.

I don't know how to calculate that how many SB4000 or PC4000 (in sealed mode) would equal what I have now, 1 FV25HP plus 2 R-115SW.
I do have space for another one or two FV25HP in the front, but not enough space for one behind sofa. The thing is I don't want to use the space in the front due to new puppy, and I want to try sealed subs
However, I can place three or four SB or PC behind sofa, plus the front right corner.

Thank you all very much for your time!


Cheers,
Jim
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Hi

I ordered yesterday a SB12-NSD, after googling a bit about the plate amp "sledge sta 400D" and reading about quite a lot of failed ones, I wonder how reliable is this sub, and should I cancel my order or not ?
What do you think about that ?


txs

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Crown XLS 1502 bridged -> Velodyne CHT 10Q (with dead internal amp) / SVS SB12-SND
Emotiva A-700 -> Kef IQ60c / Kef IQ 10 surrounds / SVS Prime Elevation front heights & rears
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post #29447 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorsareus View Post
Question for the 4000 series owners here. One of the big selling points is the controls that the sub provides, but I wonder how many are using those versus just letting the receiver/processor handle everything.
I have a 25-31pc-plus and am thinking about upgrading to a PC-2000 or PC-4000.

Thanks in advance.
I use PEQs on my SB16's. Anthem ARC is good, but I still can get better FR with some manual tweaking.

It was useful when I had just one SB16, but now with two it's even more - because ARC manages both subs as one.
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Lying PC subs on side

Anyone have experience or currently lying 1 or Duel PC subs on the ground? I was thinking of doing this to concord them better along the back edges of the sectional where it meets the back wall and just leave enough room for a couple PC2000 lying on either end along back of couch.

This should sound be same whether lying flat or standing up right? Anyone actually have experience?

Thanks in advance!

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post #29449 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Anyone have experience or currently lying 1 or Duel PC subs on the ground? I was thinking of doing this to concord them better along the back edges of the sectional where it meets the back wall and just leave enough room for a couple PC2000 lying on either end along back of couch.

This should sound be same whether lying flat or standing up right? Anyone actually have experience?

Thanks in advance!
There are at least several members here who have done so and experienced normal performance. I’m sure they’ll be chiming in.
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post #29450 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Anyone have experience or currently lying 1 or Duel PC subs on the ground? I was thinking of doing this to concord them better along the back edges of the sectional where it meets the back wall and just leave enough room for a couple PC2000 lying on either end along back of couch.

This should sound be same whether lying flat or standing up right? Anyone actually have experience?

Thanks in advance!
You can lay down the PC's, but make certain that the amp is facing up and not down into the floor
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post #29451 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Anyone have experience or currently lying 1 or Duel PC subs on the ground? I was thinking of doing this to concord them better along the back edges of the sectional where it meets the back wall and just leave enough room for a couple PC2000 lying on either end along back of couch.

This should sound be same whether lying flat or standing up right? Anyone actually have experience?

Thanks in advance!
You can lay down the PC's, but make certain that the amp is facing up and not down into the floor [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Thanks for the feedback-is this what you have done or doing?

Any effect on performance?

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post #29452 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
Anyone have experience or currently lying 1 or Duel PC subs on the ground? I was thinking of doing this to concord them better along the back edges of the sectional where it meets the back wall and just leave enough room for a couple PC2000 lying on either end along back of couch.

This should sound be same whether lying flat or standing up right? Anyone actually have experience?

Thanks in advance!
IIRC, in interview some time ago Gary Yucobian, SVS President, said he had run a cylinder sub lying down behind his couch.
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post #29453 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jcp2 View Post
You can lay down the PC's, but make certain that the amp is facing up and not down into the floor
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
IIRC, in interview some time ago Gary Yucobian, SVS President, said he had run a cylinder sub lying down behind his couch.

+1 I recall either Gary or Ed mentioning the same thing. I believe the "amp up" orientation is for more efficient heat dissipation. I also recall one member positioning his cylinder lying down in the front of his theater directly under his screen with no adverse effects. Since optimum subwoofer performance is primarily location, location, location, the only comment I would make is that locating behind the couch/sofa may not be the best location for best performance. On the other hand, many of us may not have placement options elsewhere due to aesthetic choices, existing furniture, room configuration, WAF, etc. and must accept compromises.
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post #29454 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jcp2 View Post
You can lay down the PC's, but make certain that the amp is facing up and not down into the floor
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
IIRC, in interview some time ago Gary Yucobian, SVS President, said he had run a cylinder sub lying down behind his couch.
+1 I recall either Gary or Ed mentioning the same thing. I believe the "amp up" orientation is for more efficient heat dissipation. I also recall one member positioning his cylinder lying down in the front of his theater directly under his screen with no adverse effects. Since optimum subwoofer performance is primarily location, location, location, the only comment I would make is that locating behind the couch/sofa may not be the best location for best performance. On the other hand, many of us may not have placement options elsewhere due to aesthetic choices, existing furniture, room configuration, WAF, etc. and must accept compromises.

Epson: 5040UB | Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1) | Onkyo: TX-RZ920 + M-5010 (7.2.4) | Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6 | SVS: PB16-Ultra x 2 | Philips: BDP7501, Panasonic: DMP UB900, Oppo: UDP-203
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post #29455 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 02:32 PM
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I have the SB 4000's for now until Monday when I order the PB 4000's. The app is cool and works really well. But, as you say, most of us use LFE and let the AVR handle the processing and once running Audyssey, I really don't see myself messing with my settings. I will say that it is nice though to use my Iphone to turn the logo on and off and mess with the settings if I want to


I just got my SB4000, my processor does everything but I started using the PEQ to boost the mid bass (@63hz) to get more boom for movies, which is a nice option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #29456 of 31770 Old 11-04-2018, 03:34 PM
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I just got my SB4000, my processor does everything but I started using the PEQ to boost the mid bass (@63hz) to get more boom for movies, which is a nice option.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just to clarify. I thought it was not advised to change settings in the subs DSP if using your AVR's room correction like Audyssey? Does it not change the sound dynamics of the subs and room eq negatively if doing this? I was under the impression that bumping the gain on the AVR for more sub output AKA "Running hot" was pretty much the only setting advisable? I still have to read up on Mike's guide though....
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post #29457 of 31770 Old 11-05-2018, 04:14 PM
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Hi Guys,

First time in this SVS owners thread. I have a question about the PC-4000 I was hoping I could get answered. I'm still looking for a subwoofer or two to pair with my current setup. I currently have a full Chane setup, a5.4s in the front with a 2.4 for the center and 1.4s for the rears. I am running everything with a Denon AVR-X3400H. For reference purposes my room is about 17x35 and 8' ceilings throughout. It opens up on one side towards the front in sort of an upside down "L". The opening is about 6' wide by 6' long and opens up to another 15x17 room. Right now I have an older Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX that is providing all the bass.

In my last house the LFM-1 EX was great, but that room was only 14x16 - in this house it's a little underwhelming.

I have two questions for you guys if that's OK.

1. Is the PC-4000 a worthy upgrade over the LFM-1 EX? I have checked the outputs of both and the PC-4000 numbers look great but I don't know how much better 2-4 DB really is. I prefer the down-firing subs due to puppy and small kids.

2. The electronics on the PC-4000 seem really cool. My wife and I watch movies when our kids go to sleep and the ability to easily turn up and down the sub volume sounds like a great feature. I don't know how this works in real life though.

In the end, I would want to get two subs. One of which will be in front of us, and the second one would be behind us and I'd have to use a wireless sub setup I think.

Budget is not really an issue, but i'd probalby like to get a single first and then get the second later. Unless there is a great Black Friday sale for them that is.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
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post #29458 of 31770 Old 11-05-2018, 04:37 PM
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Just to clarify. I thought it was not advised to change settings in the subs DSP if using your AVR's room correction like Audyssey? Does it not change the sound dynamics of the subs and room eq negatively if doing this? I was under the impression that bumping the gain on the AVR for more sub output AKA "Running hot" was pretty much the only setting advisable? I still have to read up on Mike's guide though....
Plenty of guys add EQ post Room Correction (be that Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC or other) in the form of a house curve, mid-bass bump, ULF boost, etc. The Sub Gods will not come down and smite you for it.
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post #29459 of 31770 Old 11-05-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Islandborn View Post
Just to clarify. I thought it was not advised to change settings in the subs DSP if using your AVR's room correction like Audyssey? Does it not change the sound dynamics of the subs and room eq negatively if doing this? I was under the impression that bumping the gain on the AVR for more sub output AKA "Running hot" was pretty much the only setting advisable? I still have to read up on Mike's guide though....
Quote:
Originally Posted by homwerk View Post
Hi Guys,

First time in this SVS owners thread. I have a question about the PC-4000 I was hoping I could get answered. I'm still looking for a subwoofer or two to pair with my current setup. I currently have a full Chane setup, a5.4s in the front with a 2.4 for the center and 1.4s for the rears. I am running everything with a Denon AVR-X3400H. For reference purposes my room is about 17x35 and 8' ceilings throughout. It opens up on one side towards the front in sort of an upside down "L". The opening is about 6' wide by 6' long and opens up to another 15x17 room. Right now I have an older Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX that is providing all the bass.

In my last house the LFM-1 EX was great, but that room was only 14x16 - in this house it's a little underwhelming.

I have two questions for you guys if that's OK.

1. Is the PC-4000 a worthy upgrade over the LFM-1 EX? I have checked the outputs of both and the PC-4000 numbers look great but I don't know how much better 2-4 DB really is. I prefer the down-firing subs due to puppy and small kids.

2. The electronics on the PC-4000 seem really cool. My wife and I watch movies when our kids go to sleep and the ability to easily turn up and down the sub volume sounds like a great feature. I don't know how this works in real life though.

In the end, I would want to get two subs. One of which will be in front of us, and the second one would be behind us and I'd have to use a wireless sub setup I think.

Budget is not really an issue, but i'd probalby like to get a single first and then get the second later. Unless there is a great Black Friday sale for them that is.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Hi,

Since both of these questions may involve the 4000 series subwoofers, and since both posters have Audyssey, I would like to try to answer with one post if I may. First, it is perfectly fine to use your DSP to fine-tune the sound in any way you like, once you have run Audyssey. Audyssey is trying to eliminate random peaks and dips in the frequency response. But, if someone chooses to put in a peak at 27Hz, or at 63Hz for instance, because it sounds better to him, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think we definitely want to let Audyssey try to do its job of correcting the FR, as best it can. But afterwards, it's strictly user preference with respect to both settings and the use of the DSP in your subs.


With respect to the PC4000, even a single PC4000 would be a nice upgrade over the Outlaw subwoofer above 40Hz. A 3db increase in available SPL would equate to a greater than 30% increase in perceived loudness. Dual PC4000's would have a good bit more than double the loudness of a single Outlaw above 40Hz.

But, it is in the low-frequencies where the PC4000's would really pull away from the Outlaw sub. With your permission, I won't try to explain exactly how our perception of loudness changes below 70Hz and especially below 30Hz. But, I will note that at 25Hz a single PC4000 would be more than twice as loud as the Outlaw sub. Dual PC4000's would be more than 4 times as loud. At 20Hz and at 16Hz, a single PC4000 would be 4 times as loud, and dual PC4000's would be about 6 times as loud. Please bear with me on the math--those estimates are just ballpark.

It may help to explain things that way rather than just to say that with both the single Outlaw and the single PC4000 in one-port mode, the PC4000 will have ~10db more output at 20Hz and at 16Hz. (For the record, <30Hz a 5db increase in SPL is perceived as a doubling in loudness.) Sometimes, when we don't know how significant a 3 or 4db increase in SPL actually is, it may be helpful to think of it in terms of perceived loudness. The PC4000's will also generate a good deal more low-bass tactile response, due to the combined action of the increased SPL, and the ports moving more air at low-frequencies.

The PC4000's will be a big upgrade over your current LFM-1EX. If you want to compare some numbers, Audioholics reviewed and measured both subwoofers. (The PC4000 and the PB4000 would have essentially identical measurements.) Just be sure that you compare them in the same one-port mode that I did. The real strength of the ported Ultra subwoofers is in their low-frequency extension and SPL. As noted in my reply to the first poster, though, the settings available to you in both your AVR and in the subs themselves will be entirely a matter of user preference. If you want to control the loudness, or the amount of low-bass, when the kids are asleep, there are mechanisms in your AVR for doing that.


https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...x-measurements


https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...0/measurements


Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #29460 of 31770 Old 11-05-2018, 05:41 PM
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Hi,

Since both of these questions may involve the 4000 series subwoofers, and since both posters have Audyssey, I would like to try to answer with one post if I may. First, it is perfectly fine to use your DSP to fine-tune the sound in any way you like, once you have run Audyssey. Audyssey is trying to eliminate random peaks and dips in the frequency response. But, if someone chooses to put in a peak at 27Hz, or at 63Hz for instance, because it sounds better to him, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think we definitely want to let Audyssey try to do its job of correcting the FR, as best it can. But afterwards, it's strictly user preference with respect to both settings and the use of the DSP in your subs.


With respect to the PC4000, even a single PC4000 would be a nice upgrade over the Outlaw subwoofer above 40Hz. A 3db increase in available SPL would equate to a greater than 30% increase in perceived loudness. Dual PC4000's would have a good bit more than double the loudness of a single Outlaw above 40Hz.

But, it is in the low-frequencies where the PC4000's would really pull away from the Outlaw sub. With your permission, I won't try to explain exactly how our perception of loudness changes below 70Hz and especially below 30Hz. But, I will note that at 25Hz a single PC4000 would be more than twice as loud as the Outlaw sub. Dual PC4000's would be more than 4 times as loud. At 20Hz and at 16Hz, a single PC4000 would be 4 times as loud, and dual PC4000's would be about 6 times as loud. Please bear with me on the math--those estimates are just ballpark.

It may help to explain things that way rather than just to say that with both the single Outlaw and the single PC4000 in one-port mode, the PC4000 will have ~10db more output at 20Hz and at 16Hz. (For the record, <30Hz a 5db increase in SPL is perceived as a doubling in loudness.) Sometimes, when we don't know how significant a 3 or 4db increase in SPL actually is, it may be helpful to think of it in terms of perceived loudness. The PC4000's will also generate a good deal more low-bass tactile response, due to the combined action of the increased SPL, and the ports moving more air at low-frequencies.

The PC4000's will be a big upgrade over your current LFM-1EX. If you want to compare some numbers, Audioholics reviewed and measured both subwoofers. (The PC4000 and the PB4000 would have essentially identical measurements.) Just be sure that you compare them in the same one-port mode that I did. The real strength of the ported Ultra subwoofers is in their low-frequency extension and SPL.


https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...x-measurements


https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofe...0/measurements


Regards,
Mike
Hi Mike,

Excellent post! That helps a lot comparing the loudness between the two subs. With that said, and I know i'm in the wrong sub for this, but is there anything else I should be looking at? I know I can get more bang for my buck from other vendors, but most of those will have forward facing subs which might not be the best for my situation. I considered 2 HSU VTF3 mk5s but I really like the look of the cylinder subs and I like the electronics of the SVS. I just don't know if the electronics are all that convenient in practice. I'd like the ability to turn down the subs when I don't need them, and I like the extra EQ I get outside of Audyssey.

I think at this point that I'd be afraid that 2 PC-4000's wouldn't be enough to fill my (almost) 5,000 cubic feet. To add to the mix, in a few years are going to be expanding that room and it will be closer to 10,000 cubic feet. That's 3-5 years away though and I'm not afraid to throw money at a problem if warranted. So maybe that's not something I should be concerned with just yet?

Thanks again!
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