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post #29911 of 31287 Old 12-20-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by DarkEnigma View Post
Yep, I've taken more measurements than I probably should have. They are not cancelling for sure. The 40hz roll-off thing didn't come from me. Although the decrease in bass was observable, I actually confirmed with others what that feature does in the official Yamaha Aventage threads (either 3080 or 3060). I assume those guys know more about Yamaha features than I do.
Interesting.
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post #29912 of 31287 Old 12-20-2018, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I think you would have to read the section that Darth linked in order to understand what he is talking about. The use of cascading crossovers is not for everyone. It is a somewhat advanced technique that is useful in some circumstances, with some equipment, in order to achieve some specific objectives.

It's not something that I would necessarily recommend to someone just starting with a new subwoofer. I think that people need some time to experience the standard recommendations for setting the subwoofer's low-pass filter (LPF) at its highest level, and the AVR's LPF of LFE at 120Hz, before experimenting with variations of those standard settings.

I recommend the same approach for the crossovers from the various speakers to the subs. Crossovers should typically be set at 80Hz (or higher if the AVR sets them higher than 80Hz) and listeners should try to experience the standard settings, as a recommended baseline, before changing them. In the end, crossovers may be set to whatever frequency a listener prefers, but at least starting with the recommended settings is probably a good idea.

Regards,
Mike
I have to say that between the standard option of AVR 80hz crossover and LPF at 120hz compared to the cascading option of everything at 80hz I prefer the cascading option. Its easier to tell the different's with music than a movie as a lot of things are going on in the movie. I do turn off DEQ for music so maybe that's a factor and I haven't tried both options with DEQ turned off for movies. I will try both with movies just as soon as I figure out what type of boost I need to implement for all the other speakers with DEQ off.
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post #29913 of 31287 Old 12-20-2018, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
While it is this YouTube user opinion, and use do to that way!
After reading this, and tried both way;
III-C: Cascading Crossovers:
From this Guide;
Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

I now got my subs and AVP set at 80Hz, for crossover point. And do like-it that way, it sound much better to me.


Ray
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi,

I think you would have to read the section that Darth linked in order to understand what he is talking about. The use of cascading crossovers is not for everyone. It is a somewhat advanced technique that is useful in some circumstances, with some equipment, in order to achieve some specific objectives.

It's not something that I would necessarily recommend to someone just starting with a new subwoofer. I think that people need some time to experience the standard recommendations for setting the subwoofer's low-pass filter (LPF) at its highest level, and the AVR's LPF of LFE at 120Hz, before experimenting with variations of those standard settings.

I recommend the same approach for the crossovers from the various speakers to the subs. Crossovers should typically be set at 80Hz (or higher if the AVR sets them higher than 80Hz) and listeners should try to experience the standard settings, as a recommended baseline, before changing them. In the end, crossovers may be set to whatever frequency a listener prefers, but at least starting with the recommended settings is probably a good idea.

Regards,
Mike
+1

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Originally Posted by velocci View Post
the question isn't if you should keep it at 80hz. the question is if you should keep the sub crossover at its highest and put the AVR crossover at 80hz (so you have full control of it on your remote rather than having to change it at both places) versus keeping both at 80hz.

As the quote above from Mike.
Reading those links, would have explain why so many like this. And very few don't.
And the You Tube user, was his point of view. That may not be for everyone
With sub/s and settings, most of the time. It is all experimentation to find the perfect solution, for many different room.


Ray
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post #29914 of 31287 Old 12-20-2018, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
I have to say that between the standard option of AVR 80hz crossover and LPF at 120hz compared to the cascading option of everything at 80hz I prefer the cascading option. Its easier to tell the different's with music than a movie as a lot of things are going on in the movie. I do turn off DEQ for music so maybe that's a factor and I haven't tried both options with DEQ turned off for movies. I will try both with movies just as soon as I figure out what type of boost I need to implement for all the other speakers with DEQ off.
Great, more meat for the meat grinder
Seriously, glad you tried-it and enjoy the results of experimenting with this option


Ray
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post #29915 of 31287 Old 12-20-2018, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Great, more meat for the meat grinder
Seriously, glad you tried-it and enjoy the results of experimenting with this option


Ray
Thanks Ray,

Did you do any adjusting for other speakers when you turned DEQ off?
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post #29916 of 31287 Old 12-20-2018, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bigzee3 View Post
Thanks Ray,

Did you do any adjusting for other speakers when you turned DEQ off?
No, I first tried DEQ Off. After finding it was adding too much bass, for my preference of listening volume.
The one thing I found out. Even if the DEQ option should be On, as per Marantz recommendation.
I do not like what-it does, and will never set-it to On again since I did experimented with-it.

Only tried the Crossover Cascading option, later. And very much like the results of this option, for my listening levels of -10 to -13dB


Ray
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post #29917 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 03:05 AM
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You can adjust the effect of DEQ in the menu, it is sometimes called Reference Level Offset or something similar depending on the receiver.

At default, DEQ will boost the subwoofer channel +10 and the rear surrounds +5 at -25 volume setting based on channel calibration of 75 db. If I remember correctly, the subwoofer channel will be +13 at -40 volume setting and of course the boost is less as you get closer to reference volume. Boost is not actually the correct term as DEQ is doing much more than boosting the channel volume but for the sake of simplicity, that is what is happening.
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post #29918 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post
You can adjust the effect of DEQ in the menu, it is sometimes called Reference Level Offset or something similar depending on the receiver.

At default, DEQ will boost the subwoofer channel +10 and the rear surrounds +5 at -25 volume setting based on channel calibration of 75 db. If I remember correctly, the subwoofer channel will be +13 at -40 volume setting and of course the boost is less as you get closer to reference volume. Boost is not actually the correct term as DEQ is doing much more than boosting the channel volume but for the sake of simplicity, that is what is happening.
I've DEQ always on and have different offsets that on Denon and Marantz can be stored via Quick Select buttons. That is quite handy when using a Harmony remote that is activity based, so "Movies" have offset at 0, TV at offset 10, Chromecast at 10 and Music at 5. Even DEQ on/off is stored via Quick Select.
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post #29919 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 12:01 PM
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I’m trying to wrap my mind around the difference between duel PC2000 vs duel PC4000 if NOT at very loud volume in a small room that opens into another room.

Because I won’t be playing movies crazy loud-would the PC2000s sound similar in terms of the tactile feel and low frequency sounds as compared to PC4000s as long as it wasn’t needed for super loud volume

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post #29920 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I’m trying to wrap my mind around the difference between duel PC2000 vs duel PC4000 if NOT at very loud volume in a small room that opens into another room.

Because I won’t be playing movies crazy loud-would the PC2000s sound similar in terms of the tactile feel and low frequency sounds as compared to PC4000s as long as it wasn’t needed for super loud volume
Tactile feel goes hand in hand with "super loud" volume. Hard to have one without the other unless you run your subs WAY hot so only the sub volume is high, which could/would lead to an out of balance overall sound.

2 subs are generally preferred for the benefit of having better bass response. If you have a known good spot for a single sub IMO it's better to get the most powerful one you can.
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post #29921 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I’m trying to wrap my mind around the difference between duel PC2000 vs duel PC4000 if NOT at very loud volume in a small room that opens into another room.

Because I won’t be playing movies crazy loud-would the PC2000s sound similar in terms of the tactile feel and low frequency sounds as compared to PC4000s as long as it wasn’t needed for super loud volume
Hi,

You have been asking similar questions for quite a while now, and there is really no way for anyone to answer them for you. You will simply have to try something to determine whether it is enough. But, it is important to recognize that, for many people, overall listening level and subwoofer volume are two entirely different things. That is because we can't hear very low-frequencies as well as those in our normal hearing range. So, we may want to make the subwoofers play louder, than our other speakers do, in order to accentuate the low-bass frequencies more. Your overall volume level might not change, but you might want to crank-up the subs. But, our preferences for bass vary, just as our listening levels do, so no one can really predict how much bass you will like.

I think that based on things you have said, the PC2000's may very well be sufficient for your needs and for your preferences. And, that would still be my starting point, if I were in your shoes. But, there is no way to know that for sure until you try them. Someone else in exactly the same room might prefer the dual PC4000's. They would go lower in frequency and they would be capable of playing those low-frequencies at a louder volume level.

In my opinion, that is the primary advantage of buying larger, more expensive subwoofers. It's not generally more mid-bass we are chasing. It's the frequencies below 30Hz, and below 20Hz that we are usually after. And, that's the place where the PC4000's will have the biggest advantage. They will go lower, louder, and they will be able to produce more low-bass tactile response when they do it. But, will you actually need that much low-bass SPL and TR? I honestly can't say (and no one else can either) whether you will find the additional low-frequency SPL/TR worth the cost difference. There would be a little more low-bass with the PC4000's, even at modest volume levels, but how much would it be worth to you?

I thought that there were some Canadian dealers who would let you try subs on approval. In my opinion, that is the only way you will know for sure, how much subwoofage is enough. If I were me, today, I would buy PC4000's, because I know now that I like a lot of low-bass. If I were you, and didn't know for sure what I liked, I would try two PC2000's, and only move up from there if they failed to satisfy me. I actually did just that--starting with smaller subwoofers, and gradually moving up to larger ones. Of course, I also have a much bigger room, and that also makes a difference. But, none of us ever knows exactly how much will be enough, until he tries a subwoofer (or two) and finds out.

I really hope that helps! I just don't think you will get to a more definite answer until you actually try the subwoofers in your room.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 12-21-2018 at 04:24 PM. Reason: Clarity
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post #29922 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I’m trying to wrap my mind around the difference between duel PC2000 vs duel PC4000 if NOT at very loud volume in a small room that opens into another room.

Because I won’t be playing movies crazy loud-would the PC2000s sound similar in terms of the tactile feel and low frequency sounds as compared to PC4000s as long as it wasn’t needed for super loud volume
As being suggested by Mike, you'll have to jump in and see/hear/try for yourself. The audio portion of this hobby is very subjective and equally dependent on a particular room's physical and acoustic properties. Other enthusiast cannot tell you what you will like/prefer and will satisfy your taste in bass. Since there are Canadian dealers who offer SVS's Bill of Rights, the opportunity is presenting itself to "just do it!" The decision is really in your hands! Good luck with your pursuit...it will be fun!
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post #29923 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 05:26 PM
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Not sure if this has been asked for the PB12 Plus...or if I've asked for that matter, but how much difference would there really be by switching over to 16Hz mode from 20Hz mode (all ports open (18Hz?))?

I do know that I will be losing out on some over all SPL, but I've wandered down a new trail of trying to get a little more ULF along with the mid-bass that @mthomas47 helped me achieve, so I'm hoping that this might work in conjunction with the cascading x-overs.

@Ed Mullen , would you be able to assist me with this question, as I know that the PB12 Plus is kind of like the Jan Brady of the SVS line and doesn't really get the attention that the others have garnered?


Thanks,

Darrell
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post #29924 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post
You can adjust the effect of DEQ in the menu, it is sometimes called Reference Level Offset or something similar depending on the receiver.

At default, DEQ will boost the subwoofer channel +10 and the rear surrounds +5 at -25 volume setting based on channel calibration of 75 db. If I remember correctly, the subwoofer channel will be +13 at -40 volume setting and of course the boost is less as you get closer to reference volume. Boost is not actually the correct term as DEQ is doing much more than boosting the channel volume but for the sake of simplicity, that is what is happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trell View Post
I've DEQ always on and have different offsets that on Denon and Marantz can be stored via Quick Select buttons. That is quite handy when using a Harmony remote that is activity based, so "Movies" have offset at 0, TV at offset 10, Chromecast at 10 and Music at 5. Even DEQ on/off is stored via Quick Select.
While I am very happy the way my subs sound, and will not play with that setting.
I would like to Thank you both, for these information's contribution. Others may find this info helpful for their situation.


Ray
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post #29925 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I’m trying to wrap my mind around the difference between duel PC2000 vs duel PC4000 if NOT at very loud volume in a small room that opens into another room.

Because I won’t be playing movies crazy loud-would the PC2000s sound similar in terms of the tactile feel and low frequency sounds as compared to PC4000s as long as it wasn’t needed for super loud volume

While personally would get the dual PC4000, and the "what if factor". If the money allow to do so.
Either models, would play nice at lower volume.

For Tactile, you can always add some TT (Tactile Transducer);
Shakers - Simple/Cheap Hookup - Visual Guide
I got a couple of them, since my Theater room is in a room. With concrete floor, and heavy carpet.
They work very well, and have the advantage of adjusting the level of Tactile you want. Some want more, others less.
At first, I was on the more side. Now I am on the just enough side, to feel them during low and heavy bass moments.
Just another tool, in the toolbox


Ray
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post #29926 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
Not sure if this has been asked for the PB12 Plus...or if I've asked for that matter, but how much difference would there really be by switching over to 16Hz mode from 20Hz mode (all ports open (18Hz?))?

I do know that I will be losing out on some over all SPL, but I've wandered down a new trail of trying to get a little more ULF along with the mid-bass that @mthomas47 helped me achieve, so I'm hoping that this might work in conjunction with the cascading x-overs.

@Ed Mullen , would you be able to assist me with this question, as I know that the PB12 Plus is kind of like the Jan Brady of the SVS line and doesn't really get the attention that the others have garnered?

Thanks,

Darrell
Hi Darrell,

Ed may answer your question this weekend, and if he does, his answer may be different from mine. But, I decided to give you an answer of my own. I think this is another of those questions that you can only answer by experimentation. Cascading crossovers give you a little more headroom, where the lower port tune will consume a little more, so I think it would be worth your while to try the lower port tune to see if you can tell a difference in the sound and tactile feel of the bass.

I think you are right that the lower port tune on the Plus is about 17 or 18Hz. That doesn't sound like much difference. But, the PB13, with about a 16Hz port tune, produces about 7.5db more output at 16Hz than the Standard 20Hz port tune does. If there is even a 3 or 4db difference at 16 or 17Hz, between the two port tunes on the Plus, that might be sufficient to give you the additional low-bass SPL and TR that you are looking for.

I would expect the one-port Extended mode to have a little more bass weight and a little more low-bass TR than the Standard mode. Of course, both of those things would be more noticeable with the right low-bass content in movies, so I would experiment with that in mind. The Extended mode will consume more headroom, though, so the subwoofer will be working harder if you are pushing the volume. And, the likelihood of port chuffing may be greater. But, you won't know until you try.

Good luck, and let us know what you discover!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #29927 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Darrell,

Ed may answer your question this weekend, and if he does, his answer may be different from mine. But, I decided to give you an answer of my own. I think this is another of those questions that you can only answer by experimentation. Cascading crossovers give you a little more headroom, where the lower port tune will consume a little more, so I think it would be worth your while to try the lower port tune to see if you can tell a difference in the sound and tactile feel of the bass.

I think you are right that the lower port tune on the Plus is about 17 or 18Hz. That doesn't sound like much difference. But, the PB13, with about a 16Hz port tune, produces about 7.5db more output at 16Hz than the Standard 20Hz port tune does. If there is even a 3 or 4db difference at 16 or 17Hz, between the two port tunes on the Plus, that might be sufficient to give you the additional low-bass SPL and TR that you are looking for.

I would expect the one-port Extended mode to have a little more bass weight and a little more low-bass TR than the Standard mode. Of course, both of those things would be more noticeable with the right low-bass content in movies, so I would experiment with that in mind. The Extended mode will consume more headroom, though, so the subwoofer will be working harder if you are pushing the volume. And, the likelihood of port chuffing may be greater. But, you won't know until you try.

Good luck, and let us know what you discover!

Regards,
Mike
This is what I was hoping may happen to find a good balance between the two.

As for tuning modes on the PB12 Plus, it lists a 20Hz mode @18-250Hz, 16Hz mode (1 port plugged), and the sealed mode is rated at 23Hz (all ports plugged). With that said, I know that in my room (18.5'Lx15.5'wx8'h @ approx. 2300^ft) on a suspended wood floor, there is no shortage of TR.

Also, I'm pretty sure that even with the opening on the front left wall (7'h x 5'w arch), and a hall entrance at the rear left of the room. I'm still getting some decent room gain. Although, I won't know that for sure until I get a UMIK setup to do some measuring. I just know that this sub has performed extremely well, minus a few intense bass scenes (RP1 explosion for example ), and only then have I had to reduce my sub trim by a few db's to compensate. Outside of that, it's been a solid performer.

Note: My sub placement is corner loaded in the right front corner, and my MLP is about 11' from the TV.

And I do concur that I just have to experiment to know for sure. I was just really curious as to whether or not I would be able to use the 16Hz and the cascading x-overs, or if I would have to go back to default and start all over. I'll give it a go as is, and see what transpires, and hopefully Ed has some input on this as well.


Thanks for the reply,

Darrell
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post #29928 of 31287 Old 12-21-2018, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I’m trying to wrap my mind around the difference between duel PC2000 vs duel PC4000 if NOT at very loud volume in a small room that opens into another room.

Because I won’t be playing movies crazy loud-would the PC2000s sound similar in terms of the tactile feel and low frequency sounds as compared to PC4000s as long as it wasn’t needed for super loud volume
I may have missed it, but have you tried contacting SVS directly for advice? They are very helpful. You can send them pics of the room, dimensions, etc. and talk about what you're wanting to do and they will be able to give you suggestions on what might best accomplish what you're after.

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post #29929 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 05:47 AM
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Not sure if this has been asked for the PB12 Plus...or if I've asked for that matter, but how much difference would there really be by switching over to 16Hz mode from 20Hz mode (all ports open (18Hz?))?

I do know that I will be losing out on some over all SPL, but I've wandered down a new trail of trying to get a little more ULF along with the mid-bass that @mthomas47 helped me achieve, so I'm hoping that this might work in conjunction with the cascading x-overs.

@Ed Mullen , would you be able to assist me with this question, as I know that the PB12 Plus is kind of like the Jan Brady of the SVS line and doesn't really get the attention that the others have garnered?


Thanks,

Darrell
The PB12-Plus is functionally not any different than the PB13-Ultra in this respect.

The native tune with all ports open is 20 Hz.

The deeper tune with a port plugged is 16 Hz.

Tuning the subwoofer deeper improves in-room extension and usable output in the 13-18 Hz band in exchange for reduced dynamic output in the 20-40 Hz octave and increased potential for port chuffing.

If the subwoofer is not being driven to anywhere near its dynamic limits, there is really no downside to the deeper tune.

OTOH, if the subwoofer is being driven to near its dynamic limits, the native 20 Hz tune will have the highest dynamic output and the least potential for port chuffing in the 20-40 Hz octave where LFE content is typically heavy on action/sci-fi source content.
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post #29930 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 07:08 AM
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This is what I was hoping may happen to find a good balance between the two.

As for tuning modes on the PB12 Plus, it lists a 20Hz mode @18-250Hz, 16Hz mode (1 port plugged), and the sealed mode is rated at 23Hz (all ports plugged). With that said, I know that in my room (18.5'Lx15.5'wx8'h @ approx. 2300^ft) on a suspended wood floor, there is no shortage of TR.

Also, I'm pretty sure that even with the opening on the front left wall (7'h x 5'w arch), and a hall entrance at the rear left of the room. I'm still getting some decent room gain. Although, I won't know that for sure until I get a UMIK setup to do some measuring. I just know that this sub has performed extremely well, minus a few intense bass scenes (RP1 explosion for example ), and only then have I had to reduce my sub trim by a few db's to compensate. Outside of that, it's been a solid performer.

Note: My sub placement is corner loaded in the right front corner, and my MLP is about 11' from the TV.

And I do concur that I just have to experiment to know for sure. I was just really curious as to whether or not I would be able to use the 16Hz and the cascading x-overs, or if I would have to go back to default and start all over. I'll give it a go as is, and see what transpires, and hopefully Ed has some input on this as well.


Thanks for the reply,

Darrell
You are very welcome, Darrell! Ed gave you a clear answer on the use of the lower port tune. Just to be equally clear, there is no conflict between using cascading crossovers and using a lower port tune, and you wouldn't have to change anything about your other settings in order to try the lower port tune.

What cascading crossovers do is to concentrate a little more SPL in the <80Hz range, assuming that the crossovers are set at the typical 80Hz. For many people, that enhances mid-bass clarity, and adds a little more headroom below 80Hz. The slight increase in headroom occurs for two reasons. First, when the LPF of LFE is set lower, less SPL is consumed, since the LFE channel plays 10db louder than the regular channels. (It is worth noting, that most of the meaningful content in the low-frequency effects channel may actually be occurring below 80Hz. That is a YMMV issue, which individuals can make their own decisions about, via listening.)

Second, subwoofers roll-off faster above 80Hz and preserve a little more headroom that way. Most people gain a little more SPL and mid-bass TR when they use cascading crossovers. But, to really benefit from them, I think it is important to have competent speakers on at least the front soundstage, because they will have to be able to handle mid-bass frequencies, above 80Hz, with sufficient SPL to be convincing.

The lower port tune just concentrates more SPL below 20Hz (and gives up a decibel or two at some higher frequencies). So, there is no direct connection to what the crossovers are doing. If anything, using cascading crossovers, in conjunction with a lower port tune, might work better, because the cascading crossovers do slightly increase subwoofer headroom, and the lower port tune will consume more headroom. As you know, that is because the lowest frequencies require the most amplifier power.

Whether cascading crossovers will work best for someone, or whether a lower port tune will work best for someone, are questions that each of us has to determine independently, for our systems, in our rooms. But, there is no inherent conflict between the two. I thought that it might be worthwhile to try to give a more detailed explanation of this for others who are reading along.

Regards,
Mike


Edit: In case someone else reading along becomes curious about how cascading crossovers work, and how to implement them, the following article explains the procedure in detail:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...nces.html#IIIC
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GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

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post #29931 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 10:35 AM
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While I am very happy the way my subs sound, and will not play with that setting.
I would like to Thank you both, for these information's contribution. Others may find this info helpful for their situation.

Ray
My use of Audyssey Dynamic EQ is just a personal preference that generally works well for me. I say generally, since DEQ has a bad habit of increasing the surround too much for my taste, and in some cases totally destroys the front stage, which I find very unpleasant. On my trusty old Harmony remote control I've programmed the option of turning DEQ on/off as well as change the level offset on the fly.

Edit: Let my add that DEQ is quite important to me, so much that I will not consider switching to another room EQ that does not have something similar as Audyssey MultEQ XT32 supporting dual subwoofers works very well.
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post #29932 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I’m trying to wrap my mind around the difference between duel PC2000 vs duel PC4000 if NOT at very loud volume in a small room that opens into another room.

Because I won’t be playing movies crazy loud-would the PC2000s sound similar in terms of the tactile feel and low frequency sounds as compared to PC4000s as long as it wasn’t needed for super loud volume
Hi,

You have been asking similar questions for quite a while now, and there is really no way for anyone to answer them for you. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG] You will simply have to try something to determine whether it is enough. But, it is important to recognize that, for many people, overall listening level and subwoofer volume are two entirely different things. That is because we can't hear very low-frequencies as well as those in our normal hearing range. So, we may want to make the subwoofers play louder, than our other speakers do, in order to accentuate the low-bass frequencies more. Your overall volume level might not change, but you might want to crank-up the subs. But, our preferences for bass vary, just as our listening levels do, so no one can really predict how much bass you will like.

I think that based on things you have said, the PC2000's may very well be sufficient for your needs and for your preferences. And, that would still be my starting point, if I were in your shoes. But, there is no way to know that for sure until you try them. Someone else in exactly the same room might prefer the dual PC4000's. They would go lower in frequency and they would be capable of playing those low-frequencies at a louder volume level.

In my opinion, that is the primary advantage of buying larger, more expensive subwoofers. It's not generally more mid-bass we are chasing. It's the frequencies below 30Hz, and below 20Hz that we are usually after. And, that's the place where the PC4000's will have the biggest advantage. They will go lower, louder, and they will be able to produce more low-bass tactile response when they do it. But, will you actually need that much low-bass SPL and TR? I honestly can't say (and no one else can either) whether you will find the additional low-frequency SPL/TR worth the cost difference. There would be a little more low-bass with the PC4000's, even at modest volume levels, but how much would it be worth to you?

I thought that there were some Canadian dealers who would let you try subs on approval. In my opinion, that is the only way you will know for sure, how much subwoofage is enough. If I were me, today, I would buy PC4000's, because I know now that I like a lot of low-bass. If I were you, and didn't know for sure what I liked, I would try two PC2000's, and only move up from there if they failed to satisfy me. I actually did just that--starting with smaller subwoofers, and gradually moving up to larger ones. Of course, I also have a much bigger room, and that also makes a difference. But, none of us ever knows exactly how much will be enough, until he tries a subwoofer (or two) and finds out.

I really hope that helps! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] I just don't think you will get to a more definite answer until you actually try the subwoofers in your room.

Regards,
Mike
Thanks Mike-always appreciate the feedback.

95% going with the Duel PC2000 to start...unless I can find some B stock or reused PC4000s
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post #29933 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 01:51 PM
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duAl, not duEl...

One more thing - PC4000 will give you more quality (speed, precision, control...) than PC2000, no matter how loud you listen to it.
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post #29934 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chirosamsung View Post
I’m trying to wrap my mind around the difference between duel PC2000 vs duel PC4000 if NOT at very loud volume in a small room that opens into another room.

Because I won’t be playing movies crazy loud-would the PC2000s sound similar in terms of the tactile feel and low frequency sounds as compared to PC4000s as long as it wasn’t needed for super loud volume
One detail that should be taken into consideration for a small room and lower volumes is whether or not you would be able to set the gain at a high enough level to get the full dynamics out of the sub that you purchase. I don't think that you will be able to achieve that with a PC-4000 that has a 1200 watt amp in a small room at the lower volume. I would guess that properly calibrated in your system you will end up with the gain at less than halfway if that. Will that bring out the best in the PC-4000? That would be a question that I would want answered before purchase and only SVS could answer that so I would give them a call.

However, a single PC-2000 could possible calibrate well with the gain around 1 to 3 o'clock in your room and that will certainly bring out the dynamics of that sub, I don't know about duals though. Once calibrated, duals will maybe have their gain set at 11 o'clock in a small room to calibrate correctly. As much as people like to recommend duals, it's not always the best choice and small room is one situation where a good quality single will be just fine.
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post #29935 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 03:20 PM
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Sb 13 Steal price?!

Hello,
After attending an SVS event last Saturday at Worldwide Stereo in PA, My wife noticed an "ultra" subwoofer sitting near the exit, for $799! It was an SVS sb13 Ultra, and I picked it up for that price! It was tested in October of 2017, and so it's probably one of the last of that type made, so it's not an old sub that was sitting around forever! Did I get it for a great price? Everyone on the SVS speaker enthusiast site on Facebook gave a resounding yes. We have it hooked up to our prime wireless speaker system and it's an amazing system as well. Hope you guys can confirm we did incredibly well on the purchase price of the Sb Ultra, thanks!


Sincerely,
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post #29936 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Trell View Post
My use of Audyssey Dynamic EQ is just a personal preference that generally works well for me. I say generally, since DEQ has a bad habit of increasing the surround too much for my taste, and in some cases totally destroys the front stage, which I find very unpleasant. On my trusty old Harmony remote control I've programmed the option of turning DEQ on/off as well as change the level offset on the fly.

Edit: Let my add that DEQ is quite important to me, so much that I will not consider switching to another room EQ that does not have something similar as Audyssey MultEQ XT32 supporting dual subwoofers works very well.

Did the same thing to me, way too much bass at lower volume and also found-it to be unpleasant
While the DEQ option been On or Off, I also find the Audyssey MultEQ XT32. Work very well with dual subs
Compare to something like REQ, it does the job very nicely for me


Ray
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post #29937 of 31287 Old 12-22-2018, 11:07 PM
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Thanks Mike-always appreciate the feedback.

95% going with the Duel PC2000 to start...unless I can find some B stock or reused PC4000s
The PB-3000 could be a good middle ground. You'll get the remote add, more tuning options for music or movies and maybe better suited for your room. It's a pretty powerful sub so for a smallish room, I'd start with one, then add a 2nd if needed.

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post #29938 of 31287 Old 12-23-2018, 07:36 AM
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The PB-3000 could be a good middle ground. You'll get the remote add, more tuning options for music or movies and maybe better suited for your room. It's a pretty powerful sub so for a smallish room, I'd start with one, then add a 2nd if needed.
The PB-3000 can also be controlled with an app, and that is quite handy when calibrating and changing settings. Having to drag out a heavy subwoofer to change some settings is not that pleasant.
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post #29939 of 31287 Old 12-23-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
Hello,
After attending an SVS event last Saturday at Worldwide Stereo in PA, My wife noticed an "ultra" subwoofer sitting near the exit, for $799! It was an SVS sb13 Ultra, and I picked it up for that price! It was tested in October of 2017, and so it's probably one of the last of that type made, so it's not an old sub that was sitting around forever! Did I get it for a great price? Everyone on the SVS speaker enthusiast site on Facebook gave a resounding yes. We have it hooked up to our prime wireless speaker system and it's an amazing system as well. Hope you guys can confirm we did incredibly well on the purchase price of the Sb Ultra, thanks!

Hells Yes! I think that is a great price. $100 more than half of retail for NIB, or even B-Stock, great deal IMO.

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post #29940 of 31287 Old 12-23-2018, 04:47 PM
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Hey guys, I've been a long time owner of an SVS PB12-NSD for several years up until 8 months ago when i moved to a new home and i ended up selling my PB12-NSD just before i moved to make the whole moving experience more manageable. i live in a house now, i don't like to watch or listen to any music or movies at high volumes by any means and my Definitive Technology BP8 speakers have been excellent even without a subwoofer for the time being but i think id like to have a subwoofer again just for the sake of having a subwoofer and to have a complete front stage again, i only have a front left and right Definitive BP8's and a CLR2002 Center, What is THE svs subwoofer to get today? is the SB3000 the one i should get? is the SB3000 worth all the extra money over the cheap SVS alternatives considering the fact i listen to content and relatively low volumes or is the SB3000 a complete overkill and a waste of money in that case? i care about the quality of the sound, Does the SB3000 provide better quality bass even at lower volumes compared to the lower end SVS Subwoofer such as the SB2000 etc? Please offer me some input, Thank you in advance.
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