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post #9721 of 10805 Old 01-02-2015, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by point1 View Post
I call Mark out of the blue this morning.. he answers. I recall having the same experience back when I was buying submersives.

I'm just saying.. I know everyone is busy and I'm sure Mark had plenty of better things to do than trying to answer my stupid questions for an hour.
That is great. All that needs to happen next is that everyone else receives this great level of service and there will be no more of the posts saying they can’t get through, their emails go unanswered" etc.

But it won't happen. Not when the CEO is spending an hour - 12% of a normal working day - answering one customer's questions. Do you not see that that is precisely the problem? It is just impossible for Mark to give this service to everyone, to do the design, to be involved in the manufacturing, to handle suppliers, to resolve internal company issues and so on and on and on and on. It is the common failing of owner-driver businesses. At some stage, one has to decide if one is going to be a small time, niche player, scraping through each day in a haphazard fashion, or if one is going to become a serious, expanding business. I think this is the point Craig was making before.

How many other people did NOT get their call answered today because 1/8th of Mark's day was devoted to a single customer? How far behind did his other pressing schedule issues fall? How many emails could he have replied to in that hour?

I take my hat off to Craig for voicing what many will have thought, including me, but kept to themselves. We are not doing Mark a favor by saying nothing. It is only because we are passionate about the Seaton Submersive that we bother to say these things. I know that nobody is a bigger fan of the Submersive than Craig. It was he who was largely instrumental in persuading me to order mine - not something you do lightly when you are thousands of miles away. I have been delighted with my Submersives and can never see me changing them for anything. But every point Craig made in his post is valid and I hope Mark listens to, and takes notice of what his biggest fans are saying. Until those issues are properly addressed not only can the company grow and move forwards, but its continued existence is endangered. If that happens, the AV world will be much the poorer.

@Mark - you will realise I am sure that these comments are meant to be positive not negative.
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post #9722 of 10805 Old 01-02-2015, 03:07 PM
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I almost fainted reading some of these posts. Folks making the same arguments I was chastised for. Yet here I am feeling that I disagree somewhat.

Functional site would be great if it was hard to get Mark on the phone. I have never had an issue getting him on the phone. All prices and relevant specs are there.

I would also love to see the Submersive/Slave combo tested. Don't care much for charts on the site outside of independent testing.

Sales volume fear - I almost laughed myself silly when I first heard this. However, I am now at the point in my life where I am turning down a 20% raise just to not be working on a laptop when I am "off work". Where you feel like you would take a pay cut just to reclaim some of your time. Life is about balance and if you have a family then it gets that much more pressing.

Maybe this is a side hobby for Mark. Does he really want to be a SVS/HSU/PSA/Rythmik/etc? I suspect these companies have hired hands. I don't know if it is in Mark's nature to entrust QC and his reputation to hired hands. Anal/obsessive? Maybe. A lot of passionate folks are that way.

I love my sub and I am eager to see what he has up his sleeve, even if I will never own them.

I hope folks aren't being left high and dry. Don't recall seeing those issues.
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post #9723 of 10805 Old 01-02-2015, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bcodemz View Post
I feel the Submersive right now has an accurate reputation for its top dog performance. However, if it gets benched, I don't think it's going to post big SPL numbers down low because it's a sealed subwoofer and it will be improperly looked down upon for producing "subpar" numbers even though the subjective performance is extremely high. For example, I doubt a Submersive is going to beat a PB13 in 16-30Hz output since the PB13 is ported and it is very strong around tuning, but many people have stated the Submersive is much more powerful and tactile than even 2 PB13s


Well numbers are numbers and they don't mean everything but they give people a way to compare items because...well...they have to have some way to compare subs besides having them all in one room and listening to them. Submersives are way too expensive to do that with anyhow. There are many subs that are output monsters but they may not be the best sub for many situations.

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post #9724 of 10805 Old 01-02-2015, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by point1 View Post
your point about customer service.. so I tried to get a hold of someone from JTR 3 times for the past month, I failed to connect with anyone.

I call Mark out of the blue this morning.. he answers. I recall having the same experience back when I was buying submersives.

I'm just saying.. I know everyone is busy and I'm sure Mark had plenty of better things to do than trying to answer my stupid questions for an hour.
I think both Jeff from JTR and Mark are both in similar situation Jon, you were able to get a hold of Mark today but others have posts that they couldn't after multiple tries. Basically what you experienced with JTR. Mark's a great guy and I'm also sure he's not exactly hurting for business but even with that said being an ID company word of mouth and the good old world wide web are the only places to really generate business. You would think that he could ask get someone to out together even a basic working web page, one besides is forum page.


And it would be nice to finally see a SubM HP measured by Josh, maybe Mark will have him measure the new upcoming SubM HP XL and SubM F2 XL's that Mark told me will be coming in 2015. I look forward to both new subs.
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post #9725 of 10805 Old 01-02-2015, 10:22 PM
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Playing devil's advocate, what does JTR or Seaton have to gain by having their subs measured. They get great praise by word of mouth and are considered top notch subs. Measurements would solve AVS members curiosity and may show how good some of the DIY or other ID subs are for a fraction of the cost.

Also, it cost to have multiple subs measured.
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post #9726 of 10805 Old 01-02-2015, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Playing devil's advocate, what does JTR or Seaton have to gain by having their subs measured. They get great praise by word of mouth and are considered top notch subs. Measurements would solve AVS members curiosity and may show how good some of the DIY or other ID subs are for a fraction of the cost.

Also, it cost to have multiple subs measured.


I would think most ID manufactures would rather have solid information available to the masses to see on their products. That way they can say "hey this is our product and we believe that its a great sub and here's the reasons why, and here's the measurements to back up what we're saying". If the products are as good as people think why not show it so it doesn't look like you're trying to hide anything?


For the record I think Mark makes awesome stuff, I wish I had the budget for some of his Cat 12's. Sadly my wife would kill me if I bought some though......lol

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post #9727 of 10805 Old 01-02-2015, 11:28 PM
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Happy new year everybody. Still a happy Submersive owner for seven years now. I do wish he would have a real website as well and that was promised a long time ago. I guess I got lucky because I got in really before anybody knew too much about his subs and he spent many an hour answering my questions. I even still I.M him now and again through AIM and he always finds time to say hello. It is too bad that some people have had trouble reaching him. Also, I know that he has promised the bigger versions of the SubMersive and the Terraform sub for some time know. Every time it seems like he is testing amps or drivers so they meet his strict criteria. I also know that prototype drawings of more tower speakers were displayed a while ago yet they have yet to materialize either.

I think Mark is a stand up guy. I really do. I know outward perception is very important. And if I am going to be %100 honest, the JTR website really doesn't blow me away either. It may be setup just a bit better but all the info that is there seems to be equal to what Mark has on his forum site. It's layed out a little nicer. But I do think that Mark needs a nicer front end now. Word of mouth has gotten him pretty far. But I think it's time for some more, and different offerings as well. Doing a master/slave setup is good, but it really does not constitute a new product in my mind. If Mark is in here, I hope he takes this as constructive criticism because I simple love my SubMersive HP.

CES is right around the corner so he might be busy with that as well. I am sorry for anyone who has had issues with Seaton Sound products. Way back when, I was one of the first people to really sing it's praises. As a matter of fact, many people sent ME PM's because they were interested in his product and wanted more info(they thought I worked for him.) I too would like to see it measured but does it really matter at this point? When I was interested in getting his sub Mark was kind enough to send me some measurements (indoor) of some of the early beta models. Plus he was kind enough to share what he thought it would do in my room. He also gave me some potential GP measurements that I swore to keep quiet about. Would I like to see some measurements, sure. Will it make me like my sub more, nope. As I said, I have had one for seven years and my early thoughts help push some people over the edge. Subjectively, the SubMersive has been at the top of just about every sub GTG it has been a part of. I do hope it does get measured at some point and I also hope he finally gets a nice website deserving of the products he makes. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to see some of those great prototypes we have been teased with. I hope this does not come off as just fan boy sucking up. And I also hope that anyone who has issues can have them resolved like I had mine resolved.

Well, I guess that's it. It's late and I am starting to see double keys on my keyboard. Again, happy new year everyone .
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post #9728 of 10805 Old 01-03-2015, 12:36 PM
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I actually think their product would do very well with measurement and meant no pun to JTR or Seaton.

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post #9729 of 10805 Old 01-05-2015, 04:54 PM
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Does Mark have a 30 day trial period with his subs?
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post #9730 of 10805 Old 01-09-2015, 10:45 AM
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Does Mark have a 30 day trial period with his subs?
Sorry I missed this earlier as I haven't spent as much time on AVS between the holidays and year end happenings. We never require a customer to keep a product they are not happy with. We hope they will give us a chance to aid with setup and put in some reasonable effort in adjustments, but within ~30 days of receiving a product we allow a refund for the purchase amount less any round trip shipping costs incurred.
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post #9731 of 10805 Old 01-09-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Sorry I missed this earlier as I haven't spent as much time on AVS between the holidays and year end happenings. We never require a customer to keep a product they are not happy with. We hope they will give us a chance to aid with setup and put in some reasonable effort in adjustments, but within ~30 days of receiving a product we allow a refund for the purchase amount less any round trip shipping costs incurred.
Thank You for the response.
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post #9732 of 10805 Old 01-09-2015, 11:42 AM
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Hmmmm....???

I have been a staunch supporter of Seaton Sound for a very LONG time, and nothing I'm about to say will impact my support for Mark or Seaton Sound. And I am glad that there is the potential for "many exciting things to come in 2015." However, I must express some frustration that some things that have been promised for a LONG time have not been forthcoming from Seaton Sound.

#1 is the website. We've been promised a real, interactive website for several YEARS!!! Seaton Sound identifies itself as an "ID", (aka "Internet Direct"), company. How can an ID company exist WITHOUT a website??? I don't get it? We've been told that Mark has a concern about sales expanding too fast if the website goes active??? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that anymore. Either Seaton Sound is a viable, forward-looking ID business, or it's just a hobby for Mark. I am truly frustrated at checking for the Seaton Sound website... only to find the same old:
"http://www.seatonsound.net/

That is the same message that has been at the webpage for several YEARS!!!! At least the "countdown timer" has been removed, but seriously Mark... C'mon Man!

#2 is the lack of 3rd party measurements of the SubM. We've been promised that the SubM's would be measured by Josh Ricci, (DataBass), as soon as the Seaton website was up and running, and Seaton Sound was ready to handle the (presumed) increase in sales that would occur based on those measurements. That promise was made over two years ago. I personally offered to send one of my SubM's to Josh Ricci for testing, but was requested to refrain from doing so because Mark assured me he would have the website up and running, which would allow him to send a SubM in for testing. Neither of those things ever happened.

#3 is the lack of follow through on many promised products, specifically speaker and subwoofer systems. From re-designed Sparks to other promised, but (as-yet) undelivered speakers and subwoofers, Mark has been quick to promise new designs, but unable to deliver actual, real products.

#4 is the decline in the accessibility of communication with Seaton Sound. I have seen a significant increase in complaints about existing customers, and potential customers, being unable to make contact with Seaton Sound. For an ID company that prides itself on CUSTOMER SERVICE, that is unacceptable.

I will be honest and straightforward and state that I'm very concerned about the future viability of Seaton Sound. I have been around long enough to see several other ID companies come and go. The pattern seems to be... missed promises.... lack of deliverable product... and lack of communication with "Customer Service." I sincerely hope that Seaton Sound will not be a victim of this same phenomenon...

I sincerely hope not...

but... I just don't know...

Mark??? Some reassurance would be much appreciated...

Craig
Hi Craig,

I wanted to jump in to confirm I have read through all these comments, and agree with the perceptions. For item #1 the website will be going up very soon. I won't bother noting a date as a couple people are involved and each have schedules to work around. #2 still holds that I won't bother with sending products to Josh Ricci until the website is up. Josh is pretty much shut down for the winter. I'll likely send the SubMersive at the same time as upcoming subwoofers. Hopefully this year we see Data-Bass converting to a sustainable entity that is more than just a hobby that pays for all the test gear/toys.

I posted some info related to #3 last night in the Seaton Speaker thread. Fortunately since the Terraform XL adventure we've grown enough and I've managed resources such that I can afford to hold a design I'm not comfortable shipping, and we have not taken money for discussed future products since the Terraform XL many years ago. There are other operations selling the next new design as soon as it's drawn up and before a crossover is even designed or finalized or production parts tested. I have been overly cautious and too picky about letting go some promising designs. Fortunately that means there are have been plenty of tests, experiments and prototypes to draw from on the upcoming products. Most who have stopped by the office are always amazed at how many various parts not in our current products are around and being tested.

#4 has been somewhat of an issue this year, with most relating to more complicated international orders, and a few related to poor timing on my part. While I very much respect the work ethic and plan to greatly improve our response times and availability, you will never hear me boast about being in the office the past 365 days like TV of PSA. I do have some life beyond speakers (which wasn't always the case), and while I love my work, I don't live to work. Currently I still handle the more involved, technical questions, but have been grooming some who I've brought on staff or had help work with us in this past year with the goal of dispersing the technical questions. Kelly is in the office Monday-Thursday and can quickly get complete quotes and answers of availability for any e-mail requests. Of course questions will be fewer and less complex with simpler answers once more detailed information is on the website. This has long created a chicken-egg syndrome of answering questions of those who are ready to order vs. working on product info and website data. In our earlier and leaner years deciding between such cases wasn't as clear as it should be to someone looking in.

While the start of this path doesn't seem so long ago, this March will mark 10 years of operating Seaton Sound. While I'm not going to put dates on products that aren't yet finalized, I have set a plan of introducing at least 10 new products in our 10th year of operation, meaning by March 13th, 2016.

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post #9733 of 10805 Old 01-09-2015, 11:56 AM
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Thank you Mark for your response!
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post #9734 of 10805 Old 01-09-2015, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Craig - a thoughtful and considered post. I too would like to see Mark get on top of the issues you raise, every one of which is undeniable. I am a massive enthusiast of my dual F2s and promote them all the time, but the lack of a functioning website cannot really be condoned for an ID company. I suspect Mark's business escalates year on year simply by word of mouth, and sometimes he struggles to keep up - the familiar concept for owner-driver businesses of the owner spreading himself too thinly. I hope that 2015 is a great year for Mark and that he reflects on how to move the business forward this year, taking that next step from being a niche business known only amongst enthusiasts to a fully-fledged player in the AV market.

Mark, if you are reading this, all my remarks are intended in good spirit and I hope they will be taken in that way too. I am a big fan, as you know, and I just want you to continue to succeed and to grow and to bring your remarkable subs to the biggest possible audience. Best wishes for a great 2015.
Thank you for the thoughts and perspective. I've been busy in the background, and while it makes for much less stress as timelines stretch or we find parts are not all they first appear to be, it can lead to the understandable concerns expressed by yourself and others here when there isn't much news or excitement over an extended period. For anyone wondering about delivery and availability of standard products, today we have 7 speakers/subwoofers headed out the door and another 8 on Monday with a good deal of product now back in stock. The situations I now describe as "not in stock" or longer lead times are equal or shorter than what some companies consider as a standard.

Thank you again to all who posted their thoughts and concerns. I know there would be many fewer words if you didn't care what the future holds.
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post #9735 of 10805 Old 01-09-2015, 03:59 PM
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Great answer mark. You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Enjoy your family time. It is precious and can't bebought back. Take this from an ex workaholic.

Anxiously awaiting the new products
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post #9736 of 10805 Old 01-09-2015, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Playing devil's advocate, what does JTR or Seaton have to gain by having their subs measured. They get great praise by word of mouth and are considered top notch subs. Measurements would solve AVS members curiosity and may show how good some of the DIY or other ID subs are for a fraction of the cost.

Also, it cost to have multiple subs measured.

May I answer with a sports analogy?


At a certain point and time, your fans could become like those of the Jets, RedSkins, Pistons, Raiders, Giants, and Lakers. Yeah, we were great before but what are really the best now? Have we sustained our edge in the face of growing competiton or are we saying we're great now because we were the best in past?


I'm not actually saying the products isn't the best, just making a point because you posted this. Having the crown from a year or years ago doesn't mean you've still got what it takes once that crown goes up for grabs.


So yeah, the latter past of your statement is the danger but it's a danger that must be faced if there is going to be any transparency to this hobby.

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post #9737 of 10805 Old 01-10-2015, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Thank you for the thoughts and perspective. I've been busy in the background, and while it makes for much less stress as timelines stretch or we find parts are not all they first appear to be, it can lead to the understandable concerns expressed by yourself and others here when there isn't much news or excitement over an extended period. For anyone wondering about delivery and availability of standard products, today we have 7 speakers/subwoofers headed out the door and another 8 on Monday with a good deal of product now back in stock. The situations I now describe as "not in stock" or longer lead times are equal or shorter than what some companies consider as a standard.

Thank you again to all who posted their thoughts and concerns. I know there would be many fewer words if you didn't care what the future holds.
Thanks Mark. You know you have an extremely loyal fan base, most of whom would never even consider using anything other than the speakers and subs you have designed and made. All the best for a truly great 2015.
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post #9738 of 10805 Old 01-13-2015, 08:58 AM
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I sent a message a couple days ago asking about Marks how to find information, price, specs, pics, etc on his subs and still now reply. The website is useless. The Forum doesn't seem that geat and everything is scattered about. I don't see how anything gets sold if there is no place to even order from! Which makes me cautious of a business like that. Speakers may be the best in the world. But it seems like the owner doesn't want anymore business.


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post #9739 of 10805 Old 01-13-2015, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
I sent a message a couple days ago asking about Marks how to find information, price, specs, pics, etc on his subs and still now reply. The website is useless. The Forum doesn't seem that geat and everything is scattered about. I don't see how anything gets sold if there is no place to even order from! Which makes me cautious of a business like that. Speakers may be the best in the world. But it seems like the owner doesn't want anymore business.
Try here:

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...ricing-3364736

It's less than satisfactory - I think we'd all agree on that. But if a slicker operation meant the Submersive cost a lot more, I think I know which way I’d rather go
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post #9740 of 10805 Old 01-13-2015, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
I sent a message a couple days ago asking about Marks how to find information, price, specs, pics, etc on his subs and still now reply. The website is useless. The Forum doesn't seem that geat and everything is scattered about. I don't see how anything gets sold if there is no place to even order from! Which makes me cautious of a business like that. Speakers may be the best in the world. But it seems like the owner doesn't want anymore business.
Hi Jim,

The only communication I can find from you is a PM you sent direct to me on AVS around 11PM Sunday night. AVS ownership does not intend PMs and the forum to be used for direct sales communication, and I am the only one who can respond to a PM here, while I have staff help sort and respond to our primary sales e-mail where they can answer many general questions along with shipping/price quotes.

Yesterday was also an exceptionally busy day after receiving a shipment of amplifiers late Friday and wanting to get subwoofers shipped out to our west coast customers for Friday delivery. Yesterday was also the last day of our Year End Sale making for many e-mails and calls. With Kelly out sick I posted this response in the sale thread on our forum.

I'll send you a quick PM with the appropriate e-mail and info. Since you did PM me before the sale ended, you can still take advantage of that through next Tuesday if you are inclined to.

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post #9741 of 10805 Old 01-13-2015, 04:31 PM
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Hi Jim,

The only communication I can find from you is a PM you sent direct to me on AVS around 11PM Sunday night. AVS ownership does not intend PMs and the forum to be used for direct sales communication, and I am the only one who can respond to a PM here, while I have staff help sort and respond to our primary sales e-mail where they can answer many general questions along with shipping/price quotes.

Yesterday was also an exceptionally busy day after receiving a shipment of amplifiers late Friday and wanting to get subwoofers shipped out to our west coast customers for Friday delivery. Yesterday was also the last day of our Year End Sale making for many e-mails and calls. With Kelly out sick I posted this response in the sale thread on our forum.

I'll send you a quick PM with the appropriate e-mail and info. Since you did PM me before the sale ended, you can still take advantage of that through next Tuesday if you are inclined to.
Hey Mark, This was the only way I could see to contact you was a PM here and I didn't want to join another forum. But I went back to your website today and I guess I didn't scroll down all the way! I found a sales email addy at the bottom. My bad. Sorry about missing that, and thanks for extending the sales. I will check to see what you have. I know your speakers has a really good reputation of being Top of the line on here.
Jim


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post #9742 of 10805 Old 01-17-2015, 12:36 AM
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I just listed my two Seaton Submersive HP's for sale in the classifieds. Here is a link for anyone interested. Thanks!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...l#post30898178
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post #9743 of 10805 Old 01-17-2015, 11:32 PM
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What are you going to replace them with Yosh?
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post #9744 of 10805 Old 01-18-2015, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by point1 View Post
What are you going to replace them with Yosh?
I am back and forth on that question. I went through the entire Orbit Shifter thread again and am heavily considering getting a pair of Orbit Shifter LFU's. I'm not even close to 100% decided yet. I kind of told myself that I would make a decision based upon if and how fast they sold. It's certainly not because my Sumbersives are not awesome... they certainly are! I just caught the upgrade bug again. Hmmm, as I said in another thread, ugrade my not even be the right word. Maybe a change in focus from chasing ULF to maximizing the over 20 Hz. experience.

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post #9745 of 10805 Old 01-18-2015, 07:49 AM
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So my theater is about 16' wide by 28' long with 9' ceilings. It is open via doorway in the back to another room that is around 11' wide by 18' long with 9' ceilings. This is a basement with concrete floors. So all together we are talking almost 6000 cubic feet. I can not seal off the theater side of the basement. It's also a difficult room because the walls are concrete (covered by wood paneling). I have the room extremely well treated with traps as well (most corner/floor/ceiling bass traps and the whole back wall are 6" of knauf 6PCF ecose and wall absorbers are 4" of knauf 6PCF ecose spaced about 2" off wall mixed with diffusers). I am just concerned that I am going to pack the room with a million sealed subs before I get the ULF tactile feel it in your chest sensation I am after. This is the truly amazing thing about Mark Seaton. He is taking the time to answer a lot of my questions via email conversation about my room and concerns.

Even then, I think that maybe I am the problem. I just don't know what I want to do yet and what I want to prioritize (below or above 20 HZ) Measurements may be useful, but I'm really not after a number (and I am limited with where I can move the subs anyway). I'm after a tactile feel in the room. I want that feel it in you chest experience. I don't want to add shakers - I want it to be the subs. Anyhow, I appreciate any thoughts. I have learned a lot from reading your thoughts over the years and really appreciate having a forum like this. I'm the first to admit I am far from an expert in this area! I am attaching some crappy cell phone pics for reference.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...l#post30898178
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post #9746 of 10805 Old 01-18-2015, 08:30 AM
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Hi Yosh,

I went through exactly the same thought process as you did. In fact I put my submersives HP for sale sometime ago for exactly the same asking price as yours.

Here is the thread that I started and got feedbacks

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post30445882

I ultimately came to the conclusion that the OS LFU just took up too much space and after talking to Mark,

I decided that my upgrade path would consist of adding master/slave Submersives HPi...

4 is better than 2.

Interestingly enough, our room size looks like it is very similar.
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post #9747 of 10805 Old 01-18-2015, 08:34 AM
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one more thing.

It looks like you are running definitive technology all around.

I was running M&Ks S150P powered monitors and I thought I was happy until I heard JTRs

I heard the JTR 228HT and the JTR212HTs... I can honestly tell you that I have heard a bunch of "commercial speakers" and none of them compared to the JTRs (I would imagine the Seaton Cats would fall into that category)

If you get the opportunity and as you mentioned you wanted the "slam" factor, I would encourage you (if you haven't already) to find someone locally (might be a challenge) so you can audition the JTRs.

That might change your focus on your next upgrade =)
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post #9748 of 10805 Old 01-18-2015, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by point1 View Post
Hi Yosh,

I went through exactly the same thought process as you did. In fact I put my submersives HP for sale sometime ago for exactly the same asking price as yours.

Here is the thread that I started and got feedbacks

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post30445882

I ultimately came to the conclusion that the OS LFU just took up too much space and after talking to Mark,

I decided that my upgrade path would consist of adding master/slave Submersives HPi...

4 is better than 2.

Interestingly enough, our room size looks like it is very similar.
I really appreciate you sharing your experience and linking your thread sharing your thoughts as you made the decision. Do you have all 4 Submersives set up yet? I am just curious to hear your thoughts after the additional 2.

I do wish the Submersive XL's were available now. It would make this decision much easier and would visually look better than two orbit shifter LFU's. I do think I could accomodate two orbit shifter LFU's - one under each of my surrounds. I would just have to pop the surrounds off the wall and put them on top. Two XL's would be a better visual option but still not sure. I have read that one orbit shifter lfu = 2 Cap S2's above 20 HZ. And I would imagine the new XL would be roughly on par with a Cap S2 (again all theory without it being here so please excuse this virtual comparison - sorry about this hypothesis - just going off what I know so far). Two orbit shifter LFU's would cost less than 4 Submersives. I could get them and if I am unhappy with the under 20 HZ performance, add some sealed subs (maybe an XL when it comes out) in the back and somehow just DSP it for under 20-25 HZ duties (not sure how this would be done but I am sure there is a way).

Option 2 is to just sit on my hands and wait for the XL to come out. I could start with 2 and add more down the road if I feel I need them. I really do love the dual opposed design that Mark uses to keep the cabinet so inert and vibration free - just an elegantly efficient design compared to all front firing IMO. Maybe doesn't look as cool as all front firing though but it's neat stuff.

Option 3 is to do what you did and go to 4 Submersives. This option is harder for me to do knowing that 1 Cap S2 or (again in theory) 1 XL should outperform approx 2 Submersives (again please forgive generalizations as I am sure many factors are involved and my intention here is not to offend - just share my current thought process). And if I stay on the sealed bandwagon, two Cap S2 or XL's (depending on future pricing that is not here yet) would/should be less $$ than four Submersives. The only down side to any of this is with 4 submersives I could potentially smooth the bass response even more - but according to the http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...s/multsubs.pdf (harman white paper on multiple subs) I should get 90% there with 2 subs.

Difficult decisions indeed! Thanks for sharing your thought process. All advice is welcome. And again, please forgive the comparisons - I am just trying to share where my head is at.

Last edited by yosh7; 01-18-2015 at 12:00 PM.
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post #9749 of 10805 Old 01-18-2015, 11:33 PM
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The Submersive XL roughly having 28" x 22" x 28" dimensions and at minimum 4000 watts, it should have more output than the S2. Hopefully a new amplifier by Speakerpower comes out with 10,000 watts to run 2 XL's at 5000 watts each in a slave configuration as I think it will be $4000 for one with the amp.
Either way 2 OS's will still have more output but the XL will do it in a more elegant way
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post #9750 of 10805 Old 01-19-2015, 01:07 AM
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Yosh,
Just some food for thought, the chest slam region is in the 40-90Hz region. In a room with concrete floors and walls, the pressure vessel gain coupled with ported subs like the OS's will easily produce that effect.

What will be harder to reproduce is the under 20Hz ULF 'the room is falling apart', "EARTHQUAKE!!!!!!" sensation, especially without shakers.

What WILL help is building a riser for the seating as the subs can shake THAT a LOT easier than a concrete floor.


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