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post #10591 of 10805 Old 07-18-2017, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Hi ppl!,

So in the next few weeks....Ill be upgrading my old 1000w Submersive amps to the new 6000w amps with the HT controls.

I have 4 x Submersives atm *one has blown an amp around 3-4 weeks ago now* contacted Mark and he said I can upgrade to the new amps and trade in my old amps ....Im just waiting to get some cash together and will contact him as soon as that is done.

What can i expect from this upgrade...........anyone want to post some thoughts if they found it a worthy upgrade. Did you find the bass went lower?...was it more controlled? was there more impact/slam?

I do listen at reference and ran the PGM2 button after audyssey with the avr sub trim being turned up 4-6db hot lol. I did get some clipping on heavy scenes like the Hulk/Abomination punch scene.

Let me know your experiences....I have read as much as i can from some ppl on google....but thought I might get more experience stories here! lol.

Cheers,
Kevin
I have the 1000watt version also and I thought Mark said going with the bigger amp would give me about 3dB more output and SQ would be the same.

Unless I misunderstood him, but I think that sounds about right because the Lab 15 is rated for 600watts approx so adding more power doesn't leave much room for increased output when you are already close to their max output. I am interested to see what Mark says.
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post #10592 of 10805 Old 07-18-2017, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I have spoken to Mark Seaton? Jeff Permanian, and Nathan Funk several times over the past month or so. While their reachability is nothing like SVS or PSA the increased performance is worth a bit of patience on the customers part.


My last two F18+ passive subs (black oak) are being delivered tomorrow! I have been patiently waiting. My Lyngdorf MP-50 won't arrive for another 4 weeks so I am 4-5 weeks away from 100% completion! I will be able to enjoy the 4 F18s with the Marantz AV7702mkII until someone buys it.


Are there any measurements for the Submersive HP anywhere I can see?


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post #10593 of 10805 Old 07-18-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by imureh View Post
Are there any measurements for the Submersive HP anywhere I can see?


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There was a review 8/31/2015 in Home Theater Hifi...

hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/.../seaton-sound-submersive-hpi-subwoofer/
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post #10594 of 10805 Old 07-18-2017, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
What can i expect from this upgrade...........anyone want to post some thoughts if they found it a worthy upgrade. Did you find the bass went lower?...was it more controlled? was there more impact/slam?
In addition to the extra headroom the new map uses a different DSP which has some newer tools. The base programming is the same. But, if I remember Mark S correctly, the new amp will be better behaved at/near the limits (the clipping you referred to?).

The other big gain is the LF ADJUST knob. You are able to be much more granular in dialing in ULF vs the PGM button.

I predict you will be quite happy!
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post #10595 of 10805 Old 07-18-2017, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I have the 1000watt version also and I thought Mark said going with the bigger amp would give me about 3dB more output and SQ would be the same.

Unless I misunderstood him, but I think that sounds about right because the Lab 15 is rated for 600watts approx so adding more power doesn't leave much room for increased output when you are already close to their max output. I am interested to see what Mark says.
OK, so that should yield me an extra 12db over what I have now...which is good since I had some clipping on some demanding scenes at reference with the subs running around 6-9db hot. Thanks mate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
In addition to the extra headroom the new map uses a different DSP which has some newer tools. The base programming is the same. But, if I remember Mark S correctly, the new amp will be better behaved at/near the limits (the clipping you referred to?).

The other big gain is the LF ADJUST knob. You are able to be much more granular in dialing in ULF vs the PGM button.

I predict you will be quite happy!
Thats exactly what I wanted to hear regarding the clipping. Also the LF Adjust knob would be very handy to adjust the ULF.

Cheers!!
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post #10596 of 10805 Old 07-18-2017, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
OK, so that should yield me an extra 12db over what I have now...which is good since I had some clipping on some demanding scenes at reference with the subs running around 6-9db hot. Thanks mate!



Thats exactly what I wanted to hear regarding the clipping. Also the LF Adjust knob would be very handy to adjust the ULF.

Cheers!!

As far as I know, it will be a 3db increase total. Since you were running 4 Submersives at 1000watts=4000watts and you are going to 6000watts now that is an increase of 2000wats. To get 6-9dB you would have to increase power 2-2.5 times and that is if the drivers could handle it.

I see your post says amps, so you are getting more than 1 6000watt amp? I took you were just replacing 1 with the 600watt amp and using it as a master and the rest slaves. I still don't think you would get much more even putting all 6000watts amps in as the drivers have to be close to their Xmax or thermal limits.

@Mark Seaton will correct me if I have it incorrect.

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post #10597 of 10805 Old 07-19-2017, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
As far as I know, it will be a 3db increase total. Since you were running 4 Submersives at 1000watts=4000watts and you are going to 6000watts now that is an increase of 2000wats. To get 6-9dB you would have to increase power 2-2.5 times and that is if the drivers could handle it.

I see your post says amps, so you are getting more than 1 6000watt amp? I took you were just replacing 1 with the 600watt amp and using it as a master and the rest slaves. I still don't think you would get much more even putting all 6000watts amps in as the drivers have to be close to their Xmax or thermal limits.

@Mark Seaton will correct me if I have it incorrect.
A Submersive master can only power a single slave (unlike the F18 which can handle up to 3). So the upgrade is likely to two amps and two passive plates.

You are correct though, having 4 Submersives already gives you the 12dB of gain. The amp upgrade gives an additional +4dB (per sub, and total) which should still be noticeable as they were running out of steam previously.
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post #10598 of 10805 Old 07-24-2017, 08:53 AM
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Hi Mark, could you please answer the emails I have sent you the pas few weeks and also tried to leave you a voicemail today.... But your voicemail was full. I would like to get the ball rolling to send you my amps first as it will be cheaper for me upfront to do that... As our Australian dollar is absolutely **** atm.

Has anyone heard from Mark lately?

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post #10599 of 10805 Old 07-24-2017, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Hi Mark, could you please answer the emails I have sent you the pas few weeks and also tried to leave you a voicemail today.... But your voicemail was full. I would like to get the ball rolling to send you my amps first as it will be cheaper for me upfront to do that... As our Australian dollar is absolutely **** atm.

Has anyone heard from Mark lately?

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I talked to him last week

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post #10600 of 10805 Old 07-24-2017, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Hi Mark, could you please answer the emails I have sent you the pas few weeks and also tried to leave you a voicemail today.... But your voicemail was full. I would like to get the ball rolling to send you my amps first as it will be cheaper for me upfront to do that... As our Australian dollar is absolutely **** atm.

Has anyone heard from Mark lately?

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Mark was on-site for an installation last week which stretched longer than expected AFAIK. I believe he returned at the tail-end of last week.

Scott Hanson was covering for Mark and I had no problem getting in touch via 773-290-8436, [email protected]

The differences in time-zones could be causing some of the difficulty. I've never tried leaving a voicemail as the phone is usually answered when I call.
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post #10601 of 10805 Old 07-24-2017, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Mark was on-site for an installation last week which stretched longer than expected AFAIK. I believe he returned at the tail-end of last week.

Scott Hanson was covering for Mark and I had no problem getting in touch via 773-290-8436, [email protected]

The differences in time-zones could be causing some of the difficulty. I've never tried leaving a voicemail as the phone is usually answered when I call.
Thanks Marc, I normally ring around 1-2am here... Which Is around 10am around there. What time did u call? Or what time would be a good time to call.... I sent emails to that same email address but never no reply..... Kind of frustrating.. As I hate it that the sub is not working. Hopefully Mark or Scott can reply to my questions about sending packaging to me so I can send my amps back first and get the new amps sent after.

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post #10602 of 10805 Old 09-01-2017, 10:07 PM
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Hey guys. I got my 6kw amps.... Wow they have really taken my Submersives to another level. I do have a small problem though..... The new amps have a slight hum to them even with no XLRs or Slave plates connected.... Both amps do the same thing. Weird thing is..... My old 4 x 1000w subs did not make this humming sound.... I also turned the whole system off and it still hums.... Also ran an extension cord to another room and still the same problem . Its just barely audible at the mlp.... But its enough to annoy me knowing its not silent like it used to be. Ive emailed Mark so i am just waiting for his response.... But thought id also post in here to see if you guys could help . Im in Australia by the way.

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post #10603 of 10805 Old 09-02-2017, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
The new amps have a slight hum to them even with no XLRs or Slave plates connected.... Both amps do the same thing.
The hum is heard from the woofer, right? Not a mechanical hum from the amp chassis?

If so, does changing the volume on the amp itself make any difference? I expect not, but just checking.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The hum is heard from the woofer, right? Not a mechanical hum from the amp chassis?

If so, does changing the volume on the amp itself make any difference? I expect not, but just checking.
Hi Roger. Yes its just making a hum from the woofer....and yes raising the volume on the amp makes the sound a tad louder.

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post #10605 of 10805 Old 09-02-2017, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The hum is heard from the woofer, right? Not a mechanical hum from the amp chassis?

If so, does changing the volume on the amp itself make any difference? I expect not, but just checking.
I do hear a slight buzzing sound from the amps... Like electrical noise if i put my head to it.......but so does the other amp as well....guessing this buzzing sound is normal.... Just want the hum sound fixed.

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post #10606 of 10805 Old 09-02-2017, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Hi Roger. Yes its just making a hum from the woofer....and yes raising the volume on the amp makes the sound a tad louder.
Ok. If you reduce the sub's volume control to minimum, does that eliminate the hum? If the volume control does not have "full range" to reduce input signals all the way down to zero, this won't tell us much. In that case I'd try shorting the input connection. This may be easier for the unbalanced input (phono) if there is one.

All of this is just to see if the hum is somehow coming in or being self generated. I'm getting the feeling it is the latter.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Ok. If you reduce the sub's volume control to minimum, does that eliminate the hum? If the volume control does not have "full range" to reduce input signals all the way down to zero, this won't tell us much. In that case I'd try shorting the input connection. This may be easier for the unbalanced input (phono) if there is one.

All of this is just to see if the hum is somehow coming in or being self generated. I'm getting the feeling it is the latter.
Hi Roger,

If i reduce the volume the slight hum is still there unfortunately. I'm using a balanced xlr cable not Rca.... Can I still short the cable that way?... You reckon that might help?... As the hum is still there when no input cable is plugged in.

Thanks again!

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post #10608 of 10805 Old 09-04-2017, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
If i reduce the volume the slight hum is still there unfortunately. I'm using a balanced xlr cable not Rca.... Can I still short the cable that way?... You reckon that might help?... As the hum is still there when no input cable is plugged in.
It won't help, in that with the input shorted the audio signal will be killed. It is not a fix. It is just a simple diagnostic to see if we can learn something about the source of the hum.

However, no further testing would appear to be useful based on your results. Looking at the picture, the volume control markings include "infinity" which tells me that it reduces gain all the way to zero (not just an attenuator that stops at -30 dB, for example). Thus, if setting the volume to minimum has not reduced the hum, it is being picked up deeper inside the amp, perhaps in the A-D section.



I had an Aerial SW12 subwoofer that exhibited internally produced hum, and it could only be reduced by opening up the unit and rotating the torroidal power transformer until I found the minimum hum orientation. The analog EQ stages had some high impedance circuitry that picked up the stray AC field. That does not exist in the Seaton amp, as it uses DSP for the EQ, but there are still some analog stages before that. I have no idea how the power supply is built or shielded, so cannot know if any such internal physical adjustments are possible or might help. Mark would be able to tell you about that, of course. I've been delving inside my electronics for 4 decades, so were it my amp, I would likely take a peek inside, just to see if something obvious presented itself. YMMV.
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post #10609 of 10805 Old 09-04-2017, 01:08 PM
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The Speakerpower amps are using switched mode power supplies - picture of two 4kw amps in a single enclosure, the SP2-8000.

http://i.imgur.com/efFthmq.jpg
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best thing to do at this point is send Mark an email
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best thing to do at this point is send Mark an email
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Ive emailed Mark so i am just waiting for his response.... But thought id also post in here to see if you guys could help . Im in Australia by the way.
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The Speakerpower amps are using switched mode power supplies - picture of two 4kw amps in a single enclosure, the SP2-8000.
Thanks much for the info. I'd suggest @buddhamus look at the noise troubleshooting tips here

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Thanks much for the info. I'd suggest @buddhamus look at the noise troubleshooting tips here
Thanks a lot for the help everyone. I'll keep looking into it.... It's so weird as my old 1kw amps never had this hum problem.... And neither do my Catalysts 12Cs?...i am using the HT edition amps with the delay settings and lf adjust features... My old amps used a power con connector rather than the IEC power cable.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
My old 4 x 1000w subs did not make this humming sound.
Just curious, what model were those subs?

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The original 1000w ice amps on the Submersives.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
You are correct though, having 4 Submersives already gives you the 12dB of gain.
Is this correct? I have heard many times that each doubling of subwoofer count provides an extra 3dB. So going from a single sub to two equals 3bB gain, then to get another 3dB you have to double the subs again to four total, meaning four of the same sub will provide a 6dB advantage over a single sub - not 3dB per each additional sub.

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268 square feet/2144 cubic feet
7.2 surround sound.
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post #10617 of 10805 Old 09-05-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by buddhamus View Post
Hi Roger. Yes its just making a hum from the woofer....and yes raising the volume on the amp makes the sound a tad louder.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Ok. If you reduce the sub's volume control to minimum, does that eliminate the hum? If the volume control does not have "full range" to reduce input signals all the way down to zero, this won't tell us much. In that case I'd try shorting the input connection. This may be easier for the unbalanced input (phono) if there is one.

All of this is just to see if the hum is somehow coming in or being self generated. I'm getting the feeling it is the latter.
Good to catch up this morning buddhamus after the holiday weekend. I often monitor e-mails over the weekend, but was away from the office/computers (packing/moving family). In your fully isolated and very quiet theater, I'm sure any noise is more obvious, especially when compared to fully powered off.

For those reading along, note this is an issue with the higher Voltage operation 6000W amplifier, not our 120V 4000W amplifier used for all of our North American customers. The even higher Voltages and power potential of the 6000W amplifier and the more complex power supply gives more opportunity for hum/buzz to leak from the big power components to the small signal components from so much as wiring being routed differently. We're doing some further testing on the 6000W model here and with SpeakerPower to see if something changed unexpectedly from previously shipped units and how we can further reduce any residual hum that might be present.

Roger, thank you for jumping in to help step through some common issues. Since the noise is present with no connection other than the power cord, it is certainly internally generated.
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post #10618 of 10805 Old 09-05-2017, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by They_call_me_Roto View Post
Is this correct? I have heard many times that each doubling of subwoofer count provides an extra 3dB. So going from a single sub to two equals 3bB gain, then to get another 3dB you have to double the subs again to four total, meaning four of the same sub will provide a 6dB advantage over a single sub - not 3dB per each additional sub.
If you want to bust out the calculator, you can compute the increase in SPL with multiple equally powered units (increasing total power to keep the same power to each woofer) with the equation:
20[LOG N2/N1]
where N is the number of subwoofers, or N2/N1 which is the ratio of new number vs old number. If you went from 6 woofers to 2 woofers this would be:
20[ LOG 2/6 ]
or -9.5dB less than 6 woofers. The opposite works as well where going from 2 woofers to 6 woofers = +9.5dB. The easy rule of thumb approximation is +6/-6 dB any time you double or half the number of equally powered woofers, and +12/-12 dB if you quadruple or go to 1/4 the number of woofers.

Amplifier power works on half the rate of increase with an equation of:
10[ LOG W2/W1]
with a corresponding approximation of +3/-3 dB any time you double or half the power in Watts, and +6/-6 dB if you quadruple or 1/4 the power in Watts.

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Last edited by Mark Seaton; 09-05-2017 at 09:47 AM.
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post #10619 of 10805 Old 09-05-2017, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Good to catch up this morning buddhamus after the holiday weekend. I often monitor e-mails over the weekend, but was away from the office/computers (packing/moving family). In your fully isolated and very quiet theater, I'm sure any noise is more obvious, especially when compared to fully powered off.

For those reading along, note this is an issue with the higher Voltage operation 6000W amplifier, not our 120V 4000W amplifier used for all of our North American customers. The even higher Voltages and power potential of the 6000W amplifier and the more complex power supply gives more opportunity for hum/buzz to leak from the big power components to the small signal components from so much as wiring being routed differently. We're doing some further testing on the 6000W model here and with SpeakerPower to see if something changed unexpectedly from previously shipped units and how we can further reduce any residual hum that might be present.

Roger, thank you for jumping in to help step through some common issues. Since the noise is present with no connection other than the power cord, it is certainly internally generated.
Thanks a lot for the chat, Mark!.

Apart from the Hum/buzzing issue, I am extremely happy with the upgrade would be an understatement!. It has definetly taken my Submersives to another level!.......Just the low end bass is just so effortless and now it can sustain certain burst scenes aka Intro opening scene to Max Max - Fury Road.......certain bass notes in the intro i could hear my old 1000w submersive almost change their sound signature under reference volume....................but with these new amps..........they just cruise along and it just sounds so freaking clean at reference!................The scene in Star Wars - Force Awakens where Rey gets interogated by Kylo Ren.............this scene never used to pressurise the room as much...........but the new amps make this scene go spastic in my room!...................I get a drowing type feeling! LOL

A part from the slight hum/buzz sound.........when a movie is playing you dont notice it at all.......but once everything turns on the first time it is obvious unfortunately. If there is a way to lower this sound.................I would be over the moon!. Going from a system which was almost dead silent to this does make my OCD kick in........so hopefully there will be a fix for this

Thanks again for your help Mark!..............the upgrade was everything you said and more!

Cheers,
Kevin
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post #10620 of 10805 Old 09-05-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Roger, thank you for jumping in to help step through some common issues. Since the noise is present with no connection other than the power cord, it is certainly internally generated.
Hi Mark,

An unterminated amp is a bit of a wild card. If there's hum it may simply be that it is picking up the stray AC field. One way to confirm is to short the input, or in this case, turn down the input gain to zero. That will eliminate the possibility that "floating inputs" are to blame (as was eliminated in this case). This problem can also occur when a properly "terminated" amp is left running with the preamp turned off, as the otherwise low active output impedance can become a high impedance once the preamp stages are shut down. I believe this is what Speakerpower is implying when they say, "Some systems will have noise if the preamp/receiver is turned off but the amps are left on." Their list of possible countermeasures gives me the feeling they have encountered hum problems more than once.

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