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post #8821 of 8926 Old 12-06-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by HsuKevin View Post
The 80 dB at 50 hz is mainly a reference point. You by no means have to use that. Just to clarify, you ran the measurements with the volume at 9 o'clock and you got roughly 75 dB above and below the crossover? When you turned the volume up to 12 o'clock, things started rattling and the bass was pretty loud? If so, what receiver are you running? I think 9 o'clock sounds a lot more of a likely setting than 12 for that kind of room. If the average below the crossover is 74-75 dB, I'm guessing that included the 50 Hz test tone with the dip. If so, what were the other output measurements taken below the crossover? Deano made a great suggestion with the phase switch. What I like to do is play the 50 Hz test tone on the receiver in a loop. Go into the speaker distance settings and start making slight adjustments and measure the output as you go. Level tends to go in a bell curve type pattern where, as you adjust, the level gradually increases and if you keep going in that direction, the level starts to drop. The distance setting that gets you the highest level, should be the setting to keep your sub and speakers in phase.
Ok, if the 80dB is only a reference point, I'll use one that isn't going to annoy the neighbour below

Yes, measurements were taken with the sub's volume knob set at 9 o'clock. AVR master volume was set to the loudest we set it if we turn it up to watch a movie. At 12 o'clock things get a little dicey as far as rattling/buzzing goes. That's largely because of things in the room - I think it's mostly coming from the radiator cover, which does sometimes rattle even when I'm not listening to anything, and it doesn't buzz or rattle during normal listening. I've got an Onkyo TX-NR747 AVR.

Yes, the 74.75dB average included the 50Hz tone. The very rough measurements below my crossover (which was set at 100Hz across all 5 speakers) were: 80Hz = 79.5db, 63Hz = 78.4dB, 50Hz = 62.7dB, 40Hz = 76.7dB, 31.5Hz = 78.9dB, 25Hz = 72.5dB

Flipping the phase switch did result in a higher reading for the 50Hz tone, so I am going to try takes full measurements another time. I thought it was set to 0 degrees, but it was 180. the 0 degree setting resulted in the 50Hz tone reading higher than before.

When adjusting the speaker distance in the AVR, are you only adjusting the sub?

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post #8822 of 8926 Old 12-07-2019, 07:25 PM
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Do you guys think the CCB-8 would be to big and knowing these speakers are finnicky on placement and set up in my 12x12 room?
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post #8823 of 8926 Old 12-07-2019, 08:35 PM
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Do you guys think the CCB-8 would be to big and knowing these speakers are finnicky on placement and set up in my 12x12 room?
Your post belongs in this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post47359457

The CCB-8s are larger than the HB-1s, but they're not huge.

Hsu recommends that each speaker of the LR pair be toed in 15° more than would be needed to point at the main listening position. That's not a large angle. I haven't experimented, but I doubt that the difference is major.

Hsu also sells a CCB-8 for use as a center. (It's identical to the others, but has its input terminals rotated 90°. Sort of silly, from my point of view. I think that I could live wit a pair of terminals oriented vertically rather than horizontally.) That's pointed straight at the MLP. Either the angle isn't critical, or Hsu is selling something that they shouldn't. I believe that the former is true.

Maybe, though, you should stay with the HB-1s. They're quite good, and much less expensive than the CCB-8s. The HC-1 center requires about as much vertical space as the CCB-8 center, though. (Something over 10", 25.4cm.)
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post #8824 of 8926 Old 12-08-2019, 09:11 AM
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We did have a chance to watch that scene today. It does have quite a bit of bass material to it for sure. We did run the sub pretty loud but it didn't clip. Sorry to hear about your power issues! Once you get that back up and running, try finding the exact scene and let me know and we'll try it again.


After eight days the power company finally got all the lines fixed so I tested out that scene again and when he’s swinging his big pickax thing the bass really rumbles.

I played it pretty loud and I don’t think it’s clipping but it did sound kind of boomy.

It was loud enough that my wife was complaining that I was going to rattle the house apart.

My course of action is I’m going to try some of those subwoofer isolation feet from SVS and see if that gets rid of a lot of the vibration because she wasn’t complaining about the volume level she was complaining about the rattling. My thinking is if I can sell her on one sub with no rattles then I can sell her on two subs with no rattles.
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post #8825 of 8926 Old 12-08-2019, 09:42 AM
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I am trying to determine whether the VTF-3 MK5 HP ($895 shipped) or the VTF-15H MK2 ($1012 shipped) would be better for my situation. I am inclined to go for the MK2 given the improved extension down to 16Hz, but wonder whether that would be useful for my room. I have a 12' wide x 32' long x 8' tall room (effectively 3000 ft3 due to a small utility closet in the back of the room reducing width to 10') but I"m only using the first half of the room for my home theater. Subwoofer placement in the front of the room is not possible due to my 123" 16:9 screen so it will be positioned behind the main seating position offset a few feet from a side wall. The issue is that my theater is in a carpeted basement with a concrete foundation. The AVS Subwoofer Calibration FAQ indicates this will significantly limit the ability to feel infrasonic sound but that nearfield placement will help. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!
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post #8826 of 8926 Old 12-08-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan Statz View Post
Ok, if the 80dB is only a reference point, I'll use one that isn't going to annoy the neighbour below

Yes, measurements were taken with the sub's volume knob set at 9 o'clock. AVR master volume was set to the loudest we set it if we turn it up to watch a movie. At 12 o'clock things get a little dicey as far as rattling/buzzing goes. That's largely because of things in the room - I think it's mostly coming from the radiator cover, which does sometimes rattle even when I'm not listening to anything, and it doesn't buzz or rattle during normal listening. I've got an Onkyo TX-NR747 AVR.

Yes, the 74.75dB average included the 50Hz tone. The very rough measurements below my crossover (which was set at 100Hz across all 5 speakers) were: 80Hz = 79.5db, 63Hz = 78.4dB, 50Hz = 62.7dB, 40Hz = 76.7dB, 31.5Hz = 78.9dB, 25Hz = 72.5dB

Flipping the phase switch did result in a higher reading for the 50Hz tone, so I am going to try takes full measurements another time. I thought it was set to 0 degrees, but it was 180. the 0 degree setting resulted in the 50Hz tone reading higher than before.

When adjusting the speaker distance in the AVR, are you only adjusting the sub?
Thanks! That's not a bad response, especially when you flipped the phase back to 0 and that boosted the level 10 dB roughly. You only need to adjust the distance on the sub. At least given your measurements, you probably should keep your volume around 9-10 o'clock.

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Do you guys think the CCB-8 would be to big and knowing these speakers are finnicky on placement and set up in my 12x12 room?
They're really not that finicky in my experience, but we do tend to like the imaging better when crossover over a foot or so in front of your position. Same with the HB-1 Mk2's. Each room is different though. In a 12x12 room, either speaker should be able to work quite well. With the CCB-8's, they do have variable tuning so you can make adjustments to the bass of the speaker in order to provide a more smoother, less boomy sound if your room is causing a lot of boost at those frequencies.

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Originally Posted by ruggercb View Post
After eight days the power company finally got all the lines fixed so I tested out that scene again and when he’s swinging his big pickax thing the bass really rumbles.

I played it pretty loud and I don’t think it’s clipping but it did sound kind of boomy.

It was loud enough that my wife was complaining that I was going to rattle the house apart.

My course of action is I’m going to try some of those subwoofer isolation feet from SVS and see if that gets rid of a lot of the vibration because she wasn’t complaining about the volume level she was complaining about the rattling. My thinking is if I can sell her on one sub with no rattles then I can sell her on two subs with no rattles.
I do recall some of the material being a tad bit boomy naturally. Our subs are measured pretty flat in room. I'll give that a listen when I get in tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by jasonwc07 View Post
I am trying to determine whether the VTF-3 MK5 HP ($895 shipped) or the VTF-15H MK2 ($1012 shipped) would be better for my situation. I am inclined to go for the MK2 given the improved extension down to 16Hz, but wonder whether that would be useful for my room. I have a 12' wide x 32' long x 8' tall room (effectively 3000 ft3 due to a small utility closet in the back of the room reducing width to 10') but I"m only using the first half of the room for my home theater. Subwoofer placement in the front of the room is not possible due to my 123" 16:9 screen so it will be positioned behind the main seating position offset a few feet from a side wall. The issue is that my theater is in a carpeted basement with a concrete foundation. The AVS Subwoofer Calibration FAQ indicates this will significantly limit the ability to feel infrasonic sound but that nearfield placement will help. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

There's no real downside in going with the bigger sub, other than size. The benefit is that the VTF-15H MK2 would give you better dynamic range if you have a lot of material in the ultra low bass and you'll get less port noise and compression. That room is decently large, and even though you're only using one half of that room, the sub will need to pressurize the open area as well. Do you tend to listen to loud output levels? Where are you seated in that room? Concrete has pros and cons for sure. It is a rigid surface, so that does tend to keep bass in a bit better than a soft floor, but as you mentioned, the floor may not flex as easily so the low end may not be as impressive and your reflections can be more severe.
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post #8827 of 8926 Old 12-08-2019, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by HsuKevin View Post
Thanks! That's not a bad response, especially when you flipped the phase back to 0 and that boosted the level 10 dB roughly. You only need to adjust the distance on the sub. At least given your measurements, you probably should keep your volume around 9-10 o'clock.
I sort of played around with the sub distance a bit the other day - need to try it out a bit more, but I did notice a difference in the readings as I adjusted. When I did my initial room calibration, the AVR set the distance to 0.5 feet (this was using the recommended Q0.7, EQ1, and volume at 12 o'clock settings in the manual). I did manually adjust to the approximate actual distance to the LP, but when I tweaked the distance while taking an SPL reading, it the dB went up a bit when I adjusted to ~1.2 feet in the AVR. That's where I have it now, but I am going to experiment a little more to see if I can get a bit more.

I have a bit of a tricky room, I think. Where I personally sit things sound okay to my ears, but if I sit barely 2 feet over to my right where my wife usually sits, the bass is more pronounced. I have a feeling that it's largely due in part to having a French door directly behind my head where I sit, and it's drywall where my wife sits (the assumption is that the bass signal is resonating in the drywall, and just going right through the door). All of my measurements are taken from her seating position.

Would you recommend re-doing my room calibration based on the reality that the sub's volume knob really only needs to be at the 9-10 o'clock range? Or is what's in the manual the best thing to set the sub at for calibration purposes regardless of the room size?

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post #8828 of 8926 Old 12-08-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by HsuKevin View Post
There's no real downside in going with the bigger sub, other than size. The benefit is that the VTF-15H MK2 would give you better dynamic range if you have a lot of material in the ultra low bass and you'll get less port noise and compression. That room is decently large, and even though you're only using one half of that room, the sub will need to pressurize the open area as well. Do you tend to listen to loud output levels? Where are you seated in that room? Concrete has pros and cons for sure. It is a rigid surface, so that does tend to keep bass in a bit better than a soft floor, but as you mentioned, the floor may not flex as easily so the low end may not be as impressive and your reflections can be more severe.
Thanks for the reply! I sit approximately 12' from the projector screen and front speakers. My current subwoofer, an SVS PB12-NSD, is behind my couch, about 2' from my left wall. It is almost directly behind my wife's seating position and I sit 2' to the right of that position. I play movies fairly loud, between -5dB to -12.5dB, averaging -10dB. It depends a lot on the source (e.g. John Wick is extremely loud at -10dB whereas It Chapter 2 isn't loud even at -5dB). I have Audyssey DynamicEQ enabled which increases LFE output by 2.2dB by every 5dB below reference. I also increased the subwoofer trim by 3dB (from -8 to -5dB). So, at -10dB, the subwoofer should be about 7.4dB louder than calibrated without DynamicEQ or manual trim changes.
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post #8829 of 8926 Old 12-10-2019, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan Statz View Post
I sort of played around with the sub distance a bit the other day - need to try it out a bit more, but I did notice a difference in the readings as I adjusted. When I did my initial room calibration, the AVR set the distance to 0.5 feet (this was using the recommended Q0.7, EQ1, and volume at 12 o'clock settings in the manual). I did manually adjust to the approximate actual distance to the LP, but when I tweaked the distance while taking an SPL reading, it the dB went up a bit when I adjusted to ~1.2 feet in the AVR. That's where I have it now, but I am going to experiment a little more to see if I can get a bit more.

I have a bit of a tricky room, I think. Where I personally sit things sound okay to my ears, but if I sit barely 2 feet over to my right where my wife usually sits, the bass is more pronounced. I have a feeling that it's largely due in part to having a French door directly behind my head where I sit, and it's drywall where my wife sits (the assumption is that the bass signal is resonating in the drywall, and just going right through the door). All of my measurements are taken from her seating position.

Would you recommend re-doing my room calibration based on the reality that the sub's volume knob really only needs to be at the 9-10 o'clock range? Or is what's in the manual the best thing to set the sub at for calibration purposes regardless of the room size?
Yea there are a lot of different interactions going on within that room, so that is certainly possible. The volume setting that we recommend in the manual is a pretty general one. Sometimes auto-correction gives you a readout of the sub bass output and tells you to adjust the volume on your sub to match a certain dB level before it runs calibration. Ultimately, if your meter is telling you that 9-10 o'clock is giving you roughly the same level as your speakers, then I would just stick to that. I don't think you need to rerun the auto-calibration, since you are making adjustments to the distance manually. You can certainly try it though, but from what I can see, you're probably fine as it is.

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Thanks for the reply! I sit approximately 12' from the projector screen and front speakers. My current subwoofer, an SVS PB12-NSD, is behind my couch, about 2' from my left wall. It is almost directly behind my wife's seating position and I sit 2' to the right of that position. I play movies fairly loud, between -5dB to -12.5dB, averaging -10dB. It depends a lot on the source (e.g. John Wick is extremely loud at -10dB whereas It Chapter 2 isn't loud even at -5dB). I have Audyssey DynamicEQ enabled which increases LFE output by 2.2dB by every 5dB below reference. I also increased the subwoofer trim by 3dB (from -8 to -5dB). So, at -10dB, the subwoofer should be about 7.4dB louder than calibrated without DynamicEQ or manual trim changes.
Thanks! Personally, I think going with the VTF-15H MK2 is a better bet for that room and your personal preference. Placement may be tough as you're seated out towards the middle of the room. I would try placing the sub next to your seating position as you did with your NSD, since the sub is closer to you that may give you a better mid-bass. You still may get a dip from the front wall, but it may not be as severe. Placement up front may be OK as well. I know you said you didn't have enough room up front but if it is just the height, you can place the sub on its side. If you're using a PB-12 NSD, you can also try to run that alongside the VTF-15H Mk2. I would place the 15H MK2 up in the front right or left corner and keep the NSD next to you. That may provide you with a smoother response.

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After eight days the power company finally got all the lines fixed so I tested out that scene again and when he’s swinging his big pickax thing the bass really rumbles.

I played it pretty loud and I don’t think it’s clipping but it did sound kind of boomy.

It was loud enough that my wife was complaining that I was going to rattle the house apart.

My course of action is I’m going to try some of those subwoofer isolation feet from SVS and see if that gets rid of a lot of the vibration because she wasn’t complaining about the volume level she was complaining about the rattling. My thinking is if I can sell her on one sub with no rattles then I can sell her on two subs with no rattles.
After trying it again, I would say that it is a bit boomy at least in our room. It has more low end than mid-bass punch and impact. BR2049 and Aquaman is a good track for mid-bass if you have those available at home. Isolation feet may or may not help. Many times, things that rattle in the room has less to do with transmission through the floor. The sub is putting out pretty high level SPL waves in an omnidirectional pattern, so those actual pressure waves traveling through the air is what causes things to rattle. Certainly, you can try them out. Do you still have the foam tray that came with the sub?
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post #8830 of 8926 Old 12-13-2019, 10:44 AM
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Hi All,
I received VTF-2 MK5 Subwoofer yesterday and I was wondering what is the best way to set it up?
I followed the Manuel setting and so far it's good but if there is a better way to set up, please tell.

also, any tips for me to get the best possible bass from the sub? it's my first subwoofer and I'm still new to HT world.

Thanks.
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post #8831 of 8926 Old 12-13-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by GloryZ View Post
Hi All,
I received VTF-2 MK5 Subwoofer yesterday and I was wondering what is the best way to set it up?
I followed the Manuel setting and so far it's good but if there is a better way to set up, please tell.

also, any tips for me to get the best possible bass from the sub? it's my first subwoofer and I'm still new to HT world.

Thanks.
Hello GloryZ,

Thank you so much for choosing our VTF-2 Mk5 for your first subwoofer! Let me get a better idea as to your setup. What receiver are you running with the sub? Are you planning on using the auto calibration software? Do you know the dimensions of your room and where you're seated in there?
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post #8832 of 8926 Old 12-15-2019, 12:02 AM
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Does opening both port make bass louder at my current setting or only allow for a little more headroom to increase gain/trim. I have my buddy change port plug while I sit on couch and listen. 1 port open+eq1 and 2 port open+eq2 at my setting on same volume, I can't hear or feel no difference.

And is there a general setting for the sub if you don't use room correction. Say if bass setting on avr is 0. And I want maximum output regardless of the room when I am listening at 00db volume on avr. What is the max volume knob can it go to? I understand depending on some avr, the sub preout give out different voltage, but if they give out the average voltage, what is the maximum knob setting.

Also I don't get the big deal about room correction. I have audyssey xt32 and after doing it, makes no big difference except for setting the sub trim down to -9 with the sub volume knob at 9 o'clock. Even when turning the volume up to 00db on avr. It sound weaker then my logitech 8" sub. Even being next to the sub, the bass is weak. After changing sub trim level back to 0 and upping the subwoofer volume knob to like 11 o'clock, does it finally sound better than the logitech 8" sub. Shouldn't audyssey set for maximum output/volume at 00db just like if you tune a car. You want the most horsepower out of the engine. It then up to the user if they want to hit that peak. The initial setting left me pretty disappointed. If I didn't know any better, I would have return it since it's sound weak. So I set it like how you do it on car audio. With car audio. You set the maximum volume on the receiver you want to listen to. Then you adjust the sub gain til you hear distortion then you back it down a little. Now you are set to play the loudest sub can go to at the max volume you listen too. If it's too loud, then you can turn it down. Too weak, then add or upgrade sub. Audyssey seem to think sub at -9 and 9 o'clock volume knob is enough output, I though it's suppose to set reference volume at 00db.
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post #8833 of 8926 Old 12-15-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
Does opening both port make bass louder at my current setting or only allow for a little more headroom to increase gain/trim. I have my buddy change port plug while I sit on couch and listen. 1 port open+eq1 and 2 port open+eq2 at my setting on same volume, I can't hear or feel no difference.

And is there a general setting for the sub if you don't use room correction. Say if bass setting on avr is 0. And I want maximum output regardless of the room when I am listening at 00db volume on avr. What is the max volume knob can it go to? I understand depending on some avr, the sub preout give out different voltage, but if they give out the average voltage, what is the maximum knob setting.

Also I don't get the big deal about room correction. I have audyssey xt32 and after doing it, makes no big difference except for setting the sub trim down to -9 with the sub volume knob at 9 o'clock. Even when turning the volume up to 00db on avr. It sound weaker then my logitech 8" sub. Even being next to the sub, the bass is weak. After changing sub trim level back to 0 and upping the subwoofer volume knob to like 11 o'clock, does it finally sound better than the logitech 8" sub. Shouldn't audyssey set for maximum output/volume at 00db just like if you tune a car. You want the most horsepower out of the engine. It then up to the user if they want to hit that peak. The initial setting left me pretty disappointed. If I didn't know any better, I would have return it since it's sound weak. So I set it like how you do it on car audio. With car audio. You set the maximum volume on the receiver you want to listen to. Then you adjust the sub gain til you hear distortion then you back it down a little. Now you are set to play the loudest sub can go to at the max volume you listen too. If it's too loud, then you can turn it down. Too weak, then add or upgrade sub. Audyssey seem to think sub at -9 and 9 o'clock volume knob is enough output, I though it's suppose to set reference volume at 00db.
Did you double check where Audyssey set the crossovers? In my experience using XT32 it sets the crossover too low, like 40-60hz. Manually go in and change it to 80hz after its run. Then go in the subwoofer volume setting in the receiver and bump up 3-6db.

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post #8834 of 8926 Old 12-16-2019, 11:23 AM
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Kudos once again to Kevin. He has received so much praise on this board that mine means nothing but it is certainly due. Discussed replacing my uls 15 mk1 amp rather than purchasing a new sub with him for about a week. He gave me all the necessary info and allowed me to make an informed decision. Called, purchased and bam, unit was received within 3 days. Thanks Kevin for everything. Now it's time to see what 3 ULS-15s can do in 1700^3ft 😈.
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post #8835 of 8926 Old 12-16-2019, 11:51 AM
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I did change the crossover to 80, that is how stupid audyssey is setting my to 40hz. Xt32 seem pretty useless. No sound difference after setting it up. I have jbl 590 and denon avr-x3500h. Like I say. I had to bump the avr sub trim back to 0db and the volume gain knob to 11 o'clock to be good. I push knob to 12 o'clock after using the car audio sub gain method explain on my previous post. Listening to test tone at 00db volume on avr and pushing gain/volume knob til it seem to distort. 12 o'clock seem good. 12:45 knob position seem to be overdriven the sub cone excursion. But I feel like this sub is not hitting hard enough for it's size. It is 100% better in the low end since it can play lower hz. But from 30hz up. It seem to be only about 15-20% better with the 15" hsu compare to my 8" logitech. I did sub crawl before with my logitech 8" and again with the hsu. It's in the best spot now.

For movie, it's good and may be worth the money. For music, I don't think it's worth compare to something cheaper. I figure the 15" hsu will cover low end for movie, which it did. But I also want it to hit way harder for music which it does not.
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post #8836 of 8926 Old 12-16-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
I did change the crossover to 80, that is how stupid audyssey is setting my to 40hz.
In all fairness, the room calibration software will often set it to the lowest possible crossover point - this is also true of Onkyo's AccuEQ. No one ever really leaves it at whatever the calibration software determines.

80Hz is the set-it-and-forget-it setting. If you have a Umik and REW software, you can actually pinpoint a more specific crossover because sometimes going a little higher or lower is better as far as achieving a flatter response time.
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post #8837 of 8926 Old 12-16-2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
I did change the crossover to 80, that is how stupid audyssey is setting my to 40hz. Xt32 seem pretty useless. No sound difference after setting it up. I have jbl 590 and denon avr-x3500h. Like I say. I had to bump the avr sub trim back to 0db and the volume gain knob to 11 o'clock to be good. I push knob to 12 o'clock after using the car audio sub gain method explain on my previous post. Listening to test tone at 00db volume on avr and pushing gain/volume knob til it seem to distort. 12 o'clock seem good. 12:45 knob position seem to be overdriven the sub cone excursion. But I feel like this sub is not hitting hard enough for it's size. It is 100% better in the low end since it can play lower hz. But from 30hz up. It seem to be only about 15-20% better with the 15" hsu compare to my 8" logitech. I did sub crawl before with my logitech 8" and again with the hsu. It's in the best spot now.

For movie, it's good and may be worth the money. For music, I don't think it's worth compare to something cheaper. I figure the 15" hsu will cover low end for movie, which it did. But I also want it to hit way harder for music which it does not.
XT32 "useless"? That is very surprising unless you have a well treated room with the "golden ratio" as far as dimensions go. Can you describe for us your Audyssey method (measurement points, how you are supporting the mic, staying away from reflective surfaces/walls, etc.) along with speaker/sub placement? A few pictures of your room would be very helpful.

If you are using the internal test tones from your AVR at 0MV to do this "car audio sub gain" method, your method is flawed. The internal test tones output at -30dBfs and if you are setting the sub gain "just below distortion" at -30dBfs, it will be distorting on regular content at any MV above -30. I'm not even going to get into why setting your subwoofer gain just below the point of distortion is a bad idea....

The sub crawl is far from perfect, and depending on the content you used, can be quite flawed. More accurate results can be achieved with an SPL meter & test tones at multiple frequencies, or better yet, REW + calibrated mic.

Your comment re:movies vs. music makes me think that your last sub was "peaky" above 30Hz giving you more impact for music. There could be a couple of things going on here, including your seating position being in a null. Without measuring your response, it is impossible to know. Just from your comments about how hot you are running the sub to get your desired effect, I suspect you are sitting in a pretty large null. Is the bass much stronger in other parts of the room?
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post #8838 of 8926 Old 12-17-2019, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
I did change the crossover to 80, that is how stupid audyssey is setting my to 40hz. Xt32 seem pretty useless. No sound difference after setting it up. I have jbl 590 and denon avr-x3500h. Like I say. I had to bump the avr sub trim back to 0db and the volume gain knob to 11 o'clock to be good. I push knob to 12 o'clock after using the car audio sub gain method explain on my previous post. Listening to test tone at 00db volume on avr and pushing gain/volume knob til it seem to distort. 12 o'clock seem good. 12:45 knob position seem to be overdriven the sub cone excursion. But I feel like this sub is not hitting hard enough for it's size. It is 100% better in the low end since it can play lower hz. But from 30hz up. It seem to be only about 15-20% better with the 15" hsu compare to my 8" logitech. I did sub crawl before with my logitech 8" and again with the hsu. It's in the best spot now.

For movie, it's good and may be worth the money. For music, I don't think it's worth compare to something cheaper. I figure the 15" hsu will cover low end for movie, which it did. But I also want it to hit way harder for music which it does not.
XT32 is pretty good. Its helped me in every situation to get a smoother bass response. Either way, something seems off. In no way should an 8" logitech be in the same league as your VTF2 MK5(12", not 15" btw) irrespective of which frequency below the crossover.
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post #8839 of 8926 Old 12-17-2019, 08:29 AM
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Kudos once again to Kevin. He has received so much praise on this board that mine means nothing but it is certainly due. Discussed replacing my uls 15 mk1 amp rather than purchasing a new sub with him for about a week. He gave me all the necessary info and allowed me to make an informed decision. Called, purchased and bam, unit was received within 3 days. Thanks Kevin for everything. Now it's time to see what 3 ULS-15s can do in 1700^3ft 😈.
Good for you Kimwyn. You will enjoy more of the headroom with triple ULSs

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post #8840 of 8926 Old 12-17-2019, 08:34 AM
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Thanks HTG. I see you're still around the forums. We have been here a long time and I have finally got an additional ULS. I dialled them in last night and they are indeed nice.
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post #8841 of 8926 Old 12-17-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
I did change the crossover to 80, that is how stupid audyssey is setting my to 40hz. Xt32 seem pretty useless. No sound difference after setting it up. I have jbl 590 and denon avr-x3500h. Like I say. I had to bump the avr sub trim back to 0db and the volume gain knob to 11 o'clock to be good. I push knob to 12 o'clock after using the car audio sub gain method explain on my previous post. Listening to test tone at 00db volume on avr and pushing gain/volume knob til it seem to distort. 12 o'clock seem good. 12:45 knob position seem to be overdriven the sub cone excursion. But I feel like this sub is not hitting hard enough for it's size. It is 100% better in the low end since it can play lower hz. But from 30hz up. It seem to be only about 15-20% better with the 15" hsu compare to my 8" logitech. I did sub crawl before with my logitech 8" and again with the hsu. It's in the best spot now.



For movie, it's good and may be worth the money. For music, I don't think it's worth compare to something cheaper. I figure the 15" hsu will cover low end for movie, which it did. But I also want it to hit way harder for music which it does not.
Your lfe should be at 120hz and speaks at 80hz.

The subwoofer crawl method only helps to find the peaks of certain frequencies. You crawl around at 50hz? What about 18-50hz?50-120hz? It leaves a lot out and can easily miss nulls.

Your vtf2 goes from 16-200hz. Without a mic, how do you know which frequencies are in a null in your listening position? the logitech sounds good here... but for whatever reason the vtf2 isnt. What other frequencies have you tried?

And I experienced a little bit of this phenomenon. I had a 12" def tech power field sub. When I got my vtf3, I noticed the def tech was boomy as hell. You could hear the bass from the DT over the hsu.. but it was not quality bass. You could feel the vtf3 like no other! When I got a 2nd vtf3 and took the DT out.. just wow... I learned what quality, not boomy bass is. I think your logitech is extremely boomy and not producing quality bass that the vtf is.

And with the denon 3500, do not do the "car audio" level adjustment. Run auddy, set the level of gain to 75db, after auddy is done, bump sub trims up by 6db. If you had a measurement mic, you could adjust the distances as well... but almost impossible to do without a mic.

Keep at 1 port eq1 q.7 for now and move the sub around till you find the best spot. Everytime you move the sub, you'll have to do another auddy measurement. Use the phone app so it wont change your settings and you can easily see the sub output and measurements.

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post #8842 of 8926 Old 12-17-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
Does opening both port make bass louder at my current setting or only allow for a little more headroom to increase gain/trim. I have my buddy change port plug while I sit on couch and listen. 1 port open+eq1 and 2 port open+eq2 at my setting on same volume, I can't hear or feel no difference.

And is there a general setting for the sub if you don't use room correction. Say if bass setting on avr is 0. And I want maximum output regardless of the room when I am listening at 00db volume on avr. What is the max volume knob can it go to? I understand depending on some avr, the sub preout give out different voltage, but if they give out the average voltage, what is the maximum knob setting.

Also I don't get the big deal about room correction. I have audyssey xt32 and after doing it, makes no big difference except for setting the sub trim down to -9 with the sub volume knob at 9 o'clock. Even when turning the volume up to 00db on avr. It sound weaker then my logitech 8" sub. Even being next to the sub, the bass is weak. After changing sub trim level back to 0 and upping the subwoofer volume knob to like 11 o'clock, does it finally sound better than the logitech 8" sub. Shouldn't audyssey set for maximum output/volume at 00db just like if you tune a car. You want the most horsepower out of the engine. It then up to the user if they want to hit that peak. The initial setting left me pretty disappointed. If I didn't know any better, I would have return it since it's sound weak. So I set it like how you do it on car audio. With car audio. You set the maximum volume on the receiver you want to listen to. Then you adjust the sub gain til you hear distortion then you back it down a little. Now you are set to play the loudest sub can go to at the max volume you listen too. If it's too loud, then you can turn it down. Too weak, then add or upgrade sub. Audyssey seem to think sub at -9 and 9 o'clock volume knob is enough output, I though it's suppose to set reference volume at 00db.
Hi there!

Opening both ports and switching to EQ2 will actually not increase the volume drastically over 1 port open. What that will do is increase the efficiency so that the sub could play louder and cleaner (wider dynamic range) than one port open mode. So it mainly shows itself if you push the sub a bit. Personally if you don't perceive any difference between the two modes, I would always run with 2 ports open, EQ2 for the increased dynamic range. In terms of max volume, that would be around 1 o'clock, which seems to correspond to your post later. Keep in mind that it's not just receiver specific but it's also material specific as well. Some material will have more bass content than others. Ultimately it comes down to how much volume the sub is pushing out and that is the sum of all the parts. In terms of audyssey, hard to say what's going on in your case. Sometimes Audyssey may not quite get everything right. It could be that the distance it chose for the sub is not optimal. It could also be placement as well. For sure the VTF-3 Mk5 HP packs quite a bit of mid-bass punch. As Alan stated, probably a good way to go about it as well and take measurements of the response. If you have a calibrated SPL meter you can use the test tones we included with the sub to give you a good idea. Also many times with the smaller subs, they tend to put out quite a bit of distortion as well that would make it sound louder, but not necessarily cleaner. Not saying that's what happened in this case, but it is a possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post
Kudos once again to Kevin. He has received so much praise on this board that mine means nothing but it is certainly due. Discussed replacing my uls 15 mk1 amp rather than purchasing a new sub with him for about a week. He gave me all the necessary info and allowed me to make an informed decision. Called, purchased and bam, unit was received within 3 days. Thanks Kevin for everything. Now it's time to see what 3 ULS-15s can do in 1700^3ft 😈.
Glad I could help Kimwyn!
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post #8843 of 8926 Old 12-18-2019, 01:47 AM
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I am using the stand and mic that came with denon, measure near the middle of the room where I sit and it's obvious I'm not using the internal test tone as it's just pink noise. I actually downloaded a 0db 40hz test tone to do the sub gain. And I have a 15" hsu vtf3, not the 12". The sub is in the rear left corner of the room and audyssey set distance to 13 feet. I move it to the front left of the room and redo audyssey. It actually boost the sub midbass alot and set distance to .1 feet. But it's not loud enough in the front since there is a opening to the kitchen on the right. I move the sub back to the rear left corner and use the audyssey setting from the front. It's alot louder. Then I bump the sub gain volume to 10:30 o'clock and 0db sub trim. It actually hit pretty hard now. It almost like night and day now. I say it's at 80-90% compare to the 20% before. Listening to just my 8" logitech sub and when I turn the vtf3. The vft3 comes on hard and over power the logitech sub now. Only downsize is it somehow turn down the lower hz. As I don't hear the same rumble. I will have to get the Audyssey app to check this sub eq. Unfortunely I don't have a spl meter or the mic thing.

The logitech can be a bit boomy and not a clean as the hsu. But I'm talking about that chest thumping loudness feel. The vtf3 is a bit better but I have to bump up the gain and sub trim pretty high compare to the recommend setting. I don't get how the recommend setting of gain at 9 o'clock and -9db to 3db sub trim can be loud. Even when I'm in front of the sub. It's definitely not louder then my logitech. With my currently setting now it's pretty loud now. Still need to tweak it though.
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post #8844 of 8926 Old 12-18-2019, 10:35 AM
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@TinjiT

After running Audyssey... do you turn back on Multieq xt32? (its off by default)

Setup>Audio>Audyssey>Multieq xt32-> reference

Dynamic eq - on
Reference level offset - 0 /5/10
Dynamic volume - off
Audyssey lfc - off

Also check in Surround Parameter:
Cinema eq -off
Loudness management- off
Low frequency effects - 0db

Your just missing something. Theres no way a 8" logitech sub can outplay a vtf-3 mk5. Not even possible. Again, get the denon mobile app. Set vtf3 to 1 port open, q- .7, eq1. Then set gain of vtf3 to 75db while running app or through reciever and run through setup. Run auddy.. show us the graph. After Auddy, turn on xt32, and bump trim by +6db's.

Theres no way you can be running a vtf3 sub trims 9db hot AND then bumping up the gains equalling approx 12 db hot and not be outplaying an 8" sub... its not possible.

I sit 12ft away from my vtf3's in a 2700sqft room that has an open hallway and opens to another huge room. My gains are set at 9 o'clock and -5 trim, 1 port open, eq1, q-.5, and these things literally shake the house.

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post #8845 of 8926 Old 12-18-2019, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
I am using the stand and mic that came with denon
Is the "rocket" stand placed on your furniture during calibration? This can transfer low frequency vibrations directly to the mic and is one of the reasons a boom mic stand is recommended.


Quote:
measure near the middle of the room where I sit
"Near"? Are you not placing the Audyssey mic at the recommended locations, with the first one exactly where your head would be while listening?


Quote:
I actually downloaded a 0db 40hz test tone to do the sub gain.
What if you happen to have a particular bad peak/null at 40Hz?


Quote:
The sub is in the rear left corner of the room and audyssey set distance to 13 feet. I move it to the front left of the room and redo audyssey. It actually boost the sub midbass alot and set distance to .1 feet.
Is that a typo, ".1 feet"?? I ask only because that is a very unusual result. This could be related to the bass energy traveling through the furniture, up the mic stand and to the mic...


Quote:
I move the sub back to the rear left corner and use the audyssey setting from the front.
This is unconventional, to say the least. As I am sure you know, once you move a speaker/subwoofer, the Audyssey filters are no longer valid. Let's say that the front location had an 8dB dip at 50Hz...Audyssey boosts this dip up to flat (+8dB), you then move the sub to the rear where you have a +10dB peak at 50Hz...you are now running +18dB at 50Hz. You can see the problem with this methodology.


Quote:
It's alot louder.
Per my example above, not surprising.


Quote:
Then I bump the sub gain volume to 10:30 o'clock and 0db sub trim.



Quote:
Only downsize is it somehow turn down the lower hz. As I don't hear the same rumble.
Different location, different room modes are excited producing different peaks/nulls...not to mention you are using an invalid Audyssey calibration.


Quote:
Unfortunely I don't have a spl meter or the mic thing.
This is easily remedied.


Quote:
The logitech can be a bit boomy and not a clean as the hsu. But I'm talking about that chest thumping loudness feel. The vtf3 is a bit better but I have to bump up the gain and sub trim pretty high compare to the recommend setting. I don't get how the recommend setting of gain at 9 o'clock and -9db to 3db sub trim can be loud. Even when I'm in front of the sub. It's definitely not louder then my logitech. With my currently setting now it's pretty loud now. Still need to tweak it though.
At what master volume level do you normally listen? Chest thump/kick won't really show up until you hit relatively loud MV levels....
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post #8846 of 8926 Old 12-18-2019, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
*snipped*
I think you would benefit from reading the first page of this thread...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2958528-guide-subwoofer-calibration-bass-preferences.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by toy4x View Post
@TinjiT

After running Audyssey... do you turn back on Multieq xt32? (its off by default)

Setup>Audio>Audyssey>Multieq xt32-> reference

Dynamic eq - on
Reference level offset - 0 /5/10
Dynamic volume - off
Audyssey lfc - off
What do you mean Audyssey is turned off by default after running the set up? Do you mean one of the features like DynEQ or DynVol? Becuase Audyssey is on by default, not off.

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post #8847 of 8926 Old 12-18-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jconjason View Post
I think you would benefit from reading the first page of this thread...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2958528-guide-subwoofer-calibration-bass-preferences.html



What do you mean Audyssey is turned off by default after running the set up? Do you mean one of the features like DynEQ or DynVol? Becuase Audyssey is on by default, not off.
Just want him to check his configuration. After auddy is ran, it asks you if you if want xt32 on or off? Maybe he turned it off... just want him to check his configs.

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post #8848 of 8926 Old 12-18-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by toy4x View Post
Just want him to check his configuration. After auddy is ran, it asks you if you if want xt32 on or off? Maybe he turned it off... just want him to check his configs.

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It asks you if you want Dynamic Volume on, not MultEQ.
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post #8849 of 8926 Old 12-18-2019, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenjiT View Post
I am using the stand and mic that came with denon, measure near the middle of the room where I sit and it's obvious I'm not using the internal test tone as it's just pink noise. I actually downloaded a 0db 40hz test tone to do the sub gain. And I have a 15" hsu vtf3, not the 12". The sub is in the rear left corner of the room and audyssey set distance to 13 feet. I move it to the front left of the room and redo audyssey. It actually boost the sub midbass alot and set distance to .1 feet. But it's not loud enough in the front since there is a opening to the kitchen on the right. I move the sub back to the rear left corner and use the audyssey setting from the front. It's alot louder. Then I bump the sub gain volume to 10:30 o'clock and 0db sub trim. It actually hit pretty hard now. It almost like night and day now. I say it's at 80-90% compare to the 20% before. Listening to just my 8" logitech sub and when I turn the vtf3. The vft3 comes on hard and over power the logitech sub now. Only downsize is it somehow turn down the lower hz. As I don't hear the same rumble. I will have to get the Audyssey app to check this sub eq. Unfortunely I don't have a spl meter or the mic thing.

The logitech can be a bit boomy and not a clean as the hsu. But I'm talking about that chest thumping loudness feel. The vtf3 is a bit better but I have to bump up the gain and sub trim pretty high compare to the recommend setting. I don't get how the recommend setting of gain at 9 o'clock and -9db to 3db sub trim can be loud. Even when I'm in front of the sub. It's definitely not louder then my logitech. With my currently setting now it's pretty loud now. Still need to tweak it though.
There is absolutely no way that your 8" logitech is louder than your 15" HSU VTF... You're doing something horribly wrong.
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post #8850 of 8926 Old 12-18-2019, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
It asks you if you want Dynamic Volume on, not MultEQ.
Dont know how yours works.. but mine always asks 2 questions..

1st question is - dynamic eq xt32? YorN
2nd question is - dynamic volume? YorN

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