Want advice on what sub to purchase? Please read this before posting... - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 379 Old 07-22-2009, 05:14 PM
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I got Mark Seaton Submersive last Thursday. I just watched the blu ray "The Dark Knight" with my son in law. We were both blown away. Last night watched Finding Nemo, the scene with the sub hitting the wall........wow wow
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post #122 of 379 Old 07-23-2009, 02:49 PM
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Thanks for the info guys, the Bic H-100 appears to be the one I would like to get. I checked ebay but I dont really see many of the Bic H-100 and the ones that are there are for nearly 300. Seems like they were roughly 200, werent they?

BTW, how is this sub for music? Will it be better than my polk psw10? I like to listen to music as well and dont want a sub that just does HT really well but sucks when it comes to music, ya know?
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post #123 of 379 Old 07-24-2009, 10:08 AM
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What are the chances that my cat is going to think a cylinder sub is a scratching post? Has anyone had a problem with this?

This might end up being the deciding factor.
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post #124 of 379 Old 07-24-2009, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagboy View Post

Thanks for the info guys, the Bic H-100 appears to be the one I would like to get. I checked ebay but I dont really see many of the Bic H-100 and the ones that are there are for nearly 300. Seems like they were roughly 200, werent they?

BTW, how is this sub for music? Will it be better than my polk psw10? I like to listen to music as well and dont want a sub that just does HT really well but sucks when it comes to music, ya know?

Just checked Overstock.com which is where I got mine. They have it for ~$273 shipped. It's been quite a while since I've seen them for much less (IIRC, they were once running about $250 shipped from a couple of eBay sellers).

As for music, can't comment on your Polk since I've never heard one. I can say that concerts on DVD or that are broadcast in 5.1 sound great to me but that's JMO.
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post #125 of 379 Old 07-24-2009, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsurd2 View Post

Just checked Overstock.com which is where I got mine. They have it for ~$273 shipped. It's been quite a while since I've seen them for much less (IIRC, they were once running about $250 shipped from a couple of eBay sellers).

As for music, can't comment on your Polk since I've never heard one. I can say that concerts on DVD or that are broadcast in 5.1 sound great to me but that's JMO.

Okay then it sounds like maybe the pa-120 would be a better deal at 230? Is premier audio 120 and the BIC 120 the same thing btw?

Ive seen two pa-120, one from PA and one from BIC, not sure if they are the same?
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post #126 of 379 Old 07-24-2009, 01:04 PM
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Check over at the PA-120 thread but I'm pretty sure that the PA-120 and BIC 120 are the same thing. Good luck.
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post #127 of 379 Old 08-12-2009, 12:17 PM
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Great advice - searched forum and could not find remedy to this specific problem posted here in format you rec'd:

Key limitations: low cabinet depth (16"), low budget, HIGH ceiling

Thanks a million for any rec's - I've been going crazy reading reviews. Thinking maybe a Velodyne but can't tell which.

1. Budget:

$ 400.

2. Size requirements/limits:

Depth is key limitation as the sub must be
placed on a low shelf which is 20" W and 22" H
but the depth goes from 16" to only 12"
So 16" x 16" x 16 D (maybe 18" D) seems like
about the max.

3. Room dimensions:

High "V" cathedral ceiling (18')
Floor is 14' x 16'
So volume is roughly 2,000 sq. ft.

4. Primary uses:

1) 80% Music (old rock, vocals)
2) 20% Movies

5. Listening habits:

Like to feel the low tones
without having to crank the volume

6. Appearance requirements: Low key - no shiny

7. Timeframe: Two weeks

Thanks, again,

- John

 

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post #128 of 379 Old 08-13-2009, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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John,

Is it possible to snap a picture or two of your space so we have a better idea of what we're dealing with? Thanks.
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post #129 of 379 Old 08-13-2009, 12:16 PM
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LaLakersFan34,

Thanks for your note ! See pics of the space attached here.

The space dimensions again are:
High "V" cathedral ceiling (18')
Floor is 14' x 16'
Volume is roughly 2,000 sq. ft.

The sub shelf you see in the third pic goes from a 15 inch depth down to a 12 inch depth.

The existing Yamaha YSTSW100 barely makes its presence known

Thanks a million for any thoughts you have,

- John
LL
LL
LL
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post #130 of 379 Old 08-13-2009, 04:08 PM
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Can the OP prune all poster specific requirement/questions and just keep this a 1 page FAQ with no wading required?

I'm a noob to anything other than 2 channel audio.

How important is placement and what sub configurations and characteristics are affected?

What difference in sound is there between sealed, ported (front v. rear), downward v. forward firing?

Is there an optimal placement distance from walls? Can it be placed directly against a wall or side of a desk? What are the effects of placing in/near a corner or 1 wall? Is optimal placement near the TV between the front main speakers? Will placement to the side near 1 main front speaker, or at the rear of the room near the surrounds have any negative directional effect?
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post #131 of 379 Old 08-13-2009, 06:04 PM
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Actually, can the OP prune all posts like the last which request turning a valuable Forum into a "one page FAQ" ? His is a swell formula to reduce the valuation of a web site by an order of magnitude. "People helping people" is a good thing for people and web sites alike.
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post #132 of 379 Old 08-14-2009, 06:14 PM
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I'm swimming in all the options, so I'll post here and forego any notion of an ego about sorting this out myself:

Great advice - searched forum and could not find remedy to this specific problem posted here in format you rec'd:

Key limitations: Low budget.

Thanks a million for any rec's - I've been going crazy reading reviews. Thinking maybe a Velodyne but can't tell which.

1. Budget:

<$300

2. Size requirements/limits:

Small is nice to have, but not "requirement".

3. Room dimensions:

Finished attic space, 12'x23', with a 7' peak.

4. Primary uses:

50/30/20 movies/games/music

5. Listening habits:

Enjoy the realistic "thumps" in the home theater and gaming, moreso than any augmentation of music.

6. Appearance requirements: Low key - no shiny

Black or white. Doesn't matter.

7. Timeframe: Nothing specific.
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post #133 of 379 Old 08-15-2009, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLosAltos View Post

LaLakersFan34,

Thanks for your note ! See pics of the space attached here.

The space dimensions again are:
High "V" cathedral ceiling (18')
Floor is 14' x 16'
Volume is roughly 2,000 sq. ft.

The sub shelf you see in the third pic goes from a 15 inch depth down to a 12 inch depth.

The existing Yamaha YSTSW100 barely makes its presence known

Thanks a million for any thoughts you have,

- John

Hi,

Is it absolutely imperative that your subwoofer go in that tiny shelf space? It's going to really limit the quality of subwoofer you can get. Is there another place in the room the sub can go? One of the rear corners? To the side of one of the shelf units? It would really help if there is some placement flexibility.
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post #134 of 379 Old 08-16-2009, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalakersfan34 View Post

Hi,

Is it absolutely imperative that your subwoofer go in that tiny shelf space? It's going to really limit the quality of subwoofer you can get. Is there another place in the room the sub can go? One of the rear corners? To the side of one of the shelf units? It would really help if there is some placement flexibility.

Thanks for your note.

....The sub could go on top of the entertainment center (wired - a 16" x 42"
spot with unlimited height)
... or in a couple of corners spots (20" x 30" x unlimited height) if wireless is practical.
... I could also overhang the shelf (to 18"D x 14" W x 22 H) and physically
secure the back of the sub rock solid.

Thanks again for any advice,

- John
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post #135 of 379 Old 08-16-2009, 07:02 PM
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I am wondering if it is possible to run 2- Polk audio DSW micro pro 1000's or even dual subs at all on a home audio system? I am assuming it would require some sort of line out splitter from the sub output on the receiver? Has anyone else tried anything like this? Or would going to a bigger speaker like the DSW micropro 4000 be a better idea.

1. prefer to stay under $1000, not looking to go to a sunfire or JL F113 or anything.

2. Unsure on size i want, would dual 8 inch subs be possible, otherwise i surely want a 12inch driver with 1000+ watts

3. roughly 6000 cubic feet of space, Mainly a square room, fairly open floor plan, but 8 ft ceilings

4. Primary use will be movies/tv 60% of the time, 40% music, some video gaming, not much though.

5. I like the pounding, i want to shake the floor when there are explosions in a movie, when listening to music, i like the low bass, i want to make sure it sounds great and i can push it hard without distortion.

6. appearance: black, most are aesthetically pleasing to me.

7. I am going to buy soon, this week probably. Open to a lesser known brand if people have good reviews on it, although everything else in my set up is Polk audio and sound matched, i know a sub does not necessarily need to be polk.

8. i looked through the forum and didn't see anything that would answer my dual sub question, so i am posting.

thanks!
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post #136 of 379 Old 08-16-2009, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnLosAltos View Post

Thanks for your note.

....The sub could go on top of the entertainment center (wired - a 16" x 42"
spot with unlimited height)
... or in a couple of corners spots (20" x 30" x unlimited height) if wireless is practical.
... I could also overhang the shelf (to 18"D x 14" W x 22 H) and physically
secure the back of the sub rock solid.

Thanks again for any advice,

- John

Hi John,

Sorry, I have a couple more questions.

First, is your $400 budget firm? If so that's fine. In my humble opinion most $400 subs will be a bit lacking in your 2,000-2,500 cubic foot room, but considering the sub you're coming from it might not be an issue.

Second, how much space is between your doorway and the big entertainment center (in the black box)?




A recommendation I have that fits your $400 budget is the Hsu STF-2. Here's a link to the product:
http://hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

Hsu subs are known to sound very good with music, which seems to be your main priority. The STF-2 is no king of output, but it should provide some punch while sounding very musical. It can also do a decent job for HT, though it won't be shaking your foundation like a larger sub can.

The STF-2 seems like a good choice for you because it's $349 plus $33 shipping, putting it below your $400 limit. It is also relatively slender, at only 14" wide. Check and see if you can fit a 14" wide subwoofer between your entertainment center and your doorway. If you can, I think it's a great choice.

Like I said, I'd want something a bit more powerful in a room of your size, and if you can afford to step up to something a little larger and more expensive, I'll make more recommendations. However, if your budget is firm at $400 and you have the space (which it looks like you might), the STF-2 looks like a great subwoofer for your needs.

Keep me posted.

Stephen
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post #137 of 379 Old 08-17-2009, 08:47 PM
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Ok, I guess this isn't a FAQ thread, but ok to clutter with everyone's personal setup question, so I'll add mine:

1. All the subs I've listened to so far are about $650, but I'd like to get to <= $500, not including taxes/shipping.

2. Prefer a 12" or 10". Can fit up to 20" depth, but prefer smaller enclosure as a large one would mean placing against a wall or bookcase and close to the side of my desk. Looking at forward firing sealed subs because the rear will likely be close to a wall or bookcase.

3. 12.5' x 11' x 8'h upstairs office bedroom

4. 90% music, 10% HDTV

5. Mostly moderate volume, but will crank on occasion. To be matched with B&W 685 bookshelf speakers in a 2.1 setup. I want accuracy, balance, and bass extension - quality over quantity.

6. Appearance doesn't matter.

7. Time frame is not so important, but it'd be nice to have it around next weekend when I plan on picking up my B&W 685s, although I can wait if on back order.

8. I've listened and like the following subs:
a. B&W 610 - 10", small enclosure, matching Cherry veneer, $650
b. Martin Logan Dynamo - older version, 12" sealed, medium enclosure, $650
c. Velodyne DEQ12R - 12", automatic room correction, large enclosure, $649
Below are models that might also work, but I don't know how they sound:
d. Infinity PS212 - 12", high power, large enclosure, but they seem to have higher failure rates, $500
e. Klipsch RW-10d - 10", larger enclosure, $550
I would like opinions on the last 2 as well as any others. I prefer to be able to listen to one in a store before buying, unless the ID won't charge restocking fees.
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post #138 of 379 Old 08-17-2009, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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HDTimeShifter,

It seems as though you care most about music and SQ, not output or extension. Your room is small enough that it should be easy to achieve respectable output levels. It's possible you could come in well under your budget and be reasonably satisfied with something like the Hsu STF-2.

http://hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

Hsu subs have a good reputation for SQ and it should have enough output for your small room at your modest listening levels. The STF-2 should have solid extension down to a bit below 25hz.

Of the subs you listed, I'd go for either the Martin Logan Dynamo or Velodyne DEQ12R. The Velodyne's EQ system might make it a better candidate, and I think it's a great option. Velodyne's DEQ line doesn't dig very deep (a review of the DEQ15R shows that it rolls off hard below 30hz; I'd imagine the DEQ12R fares even a bit worse), but it should have enough output for your moderate listening habits and the EQ might prove to be a very valuable feature to help it blend well with your B&W's for music.

I've owned the Infinity PS212 and while it had great output, its extension was only so-so and some of your other options should be better for your music-oriented listening. I don't know much about the Klipsch RW-10d but I'd imagine the Velodyne, ML, and Hsu STF-2 will be better music subs.

If you can push your budget a little farther the SVS SB12-Plus and Epik Vanquish are excellent sealed subs that will pack a good punch and sound very good for music, but they'll cost closer to $700-750 with shipping.

Good luck.
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post #139 of 379 Old 08-17-2009, 11:21 PM
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Thanks for the advice, lalakersfan34.

I found the Velodyne DEQ15R review on Audioholics.com. The graph does show it rolling off very steeply at 30 Hz. So much for Velodyne's spec sheet claim of 23Hz +-3dB. The auto EQ seems useful for correcting for the room acoustics and matching my B&Ws, however.

I think the Infinity and Klipsch are both available at either BB or Ultimate Electronics. I'm going to try and give them a listen. They are priced less than the other 3 I've listened to. The ML Dynamo was a steal when it was closed out at $350 on Amazon last month, but I missed it. Hopefully BB will discount it as they get new stock of the $150 cheaper replacement Dynamo 500 which is rear ported and looses 4 Hz in bass extension.

The Hsu STF2 is rear ported - not sure if that lowers the quality of the sound or will work placed against the wall or just in front of a bookcase. The other 2 ID subs run about $60 more. I'd take a chance on an ID sub without listening in person if it meant significant savings like the STF2, but probably not spending more.

More research and I'm finding out that wall placement, even corner placement is actually good for subs - I'd been afraid that would make it too boomy (upper bass). I'm thinking of placing it in front of the wall next to my desk (and computer case just between the desk and it) with a small bookshelf on the other side. Unfortunately, my chair is almost in the middle of the room. Dr. Hsu is correct in recommending against placing the sub or sitting in the middle of the room, as I did hear the dead spot the other day in the middle of the listening room while listening to subs at the dealer.
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post #140 of 379 Old 08-18-2009, 01:10 AM - Thread Starter
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HD,

The STF-2 should be fine as long as it's a few inches from the wall. I'd guess about 4" should be plenty of space for the port to breathe. BTW, the cables that plug into the STF-2's amplifier pretty much necessitate 3-4" of space between the back of the sub and the wall anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.
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post #141 of 379 Old 08-18-2009, 01:58 AM
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I just ordered the Martin Login: http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo...YNAMO%20%20BLK It's not the screaming $350 deal from last month, but still quite good at $510 including shipping, which saves me $200 over the other subs I was looking at.
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post #142 of 379 Old 08-18-2009, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds good, HD. I'm sure the Dynamo will do just fine in your small room at moderate listening levels. Let me know what you think once you get it all set up and calibrated with the rest of your system.
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post #143 of 379 Old 08-22-2009, 10:31 AM
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Hi everyone,

Have had a AVS account for sometime but never activated it until today. I work at a HT store and sell a number of these brands so I'll weigh in...

Velodyne DEQ--prob the best option...great warranty and service, plays cleanly to about 35hz (any $500-$600 sub that tells you it can do 25hz is full of it--they lack the amp power or the driver isn't robust enough)

Infinity--avoid like the plague...reliability probs....sold one a couple of years ago that had to be repaired four (!) times in 6 months...

HSU--don't know much about them and they have a big following...know a guy who had it and liked it, but you're always taking a chance without auditioning it yourself

Martin Logan--they're new to the game (subs I mean), but their entry stuff isn't bad. Doesn't crank very well and bottoms out around 40hz in most rooms

Klipsch--I sell a lot of their subs but have never really liked them. Once measured a RW10d's lowest note at 45hz, and it was off like 3db from 50hz. Wow

The Kef KUBE sub is another good option, small and runs about $500??

Hope this is helpful, and good luck in your search.

Cheers

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post #144 of 379 Old 08-22-2009, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Marc,

Glad you decided to get on board here on AVS. It's always good to have perspective from a HT dealer. I hope you continue to participate here and find it an enjoyable experience.

I think your assessment of the subs in question is pretty accurate overall, though I haven't heard them all extensively (and a couple, not at all). The Velodyne should have decent output above 40hz and its EQ can prove beneficial in taming room issues. I owned the Infinity PS212 and I suppose I was fortunate because I had no amp issues. It sounded decent and had good output above 35hz. However, I've read about the amp issues and would be hesitant to buy one now. I haven't heard the other subs much, but your sentiments echo others I have read.

I do have to take issue with the following statement, though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc M. Johnson View Post

any $500-$600 sub that tells you it can do 25hz is full of it--they lack the amp power or the driver isn't robust enough

Perhaps this is the case with subs sold in brick and mortar stores from companies such as Velodyne and Klipsch, but today's internet direct subwoofer industry has a number of <$600 subwoofers that can dig to a real 25hz and below. Here are just a few:

SVS PB10-NSD ($449) - solid output 20hz (slightly deeper in-room)
SVS PB12-NSD ($569) - strong output to below 20hz (upper teens in-room)
Hsu VTF-1 ($449) - good output to 25hz (closer to 20hz in-room)
Hsu VTF-2 MK3 ($549) - digs to below 20hz (upper teens in-room)
AV123 MFW-15 ($499 on sale) - strong output to ~18hz
eD A2-300 ($350) - output to 20hz
eD A3-300 ($550) - strong output to 20hz
Outlaw LFM-1 Plus ($549) - strong output to slightly below 20hz

With the exception of the Hsu VTF-1, all of these subs should be capable of substantial output at 20hz (at least 90dB 2M GP). They also sound quite good (I've heard some of them and previously owned two PB10-NSD's myself), are backed by excellent service, and usually have a ~45 day money back guarantee (though the customer may be out shipping costs).

If you haven't yet had the chance to hear any of these ID offerings, I'd encourage you to get a demo from someone who owns one. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised .

Again, welcome to the forum.
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post #145 of 379 Old 08-22-2009, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc M. Johnson View Post

Velodyne DEQ--prob the best option...great warranty and service, plays cleanly to about 35hz (any $500-$600 sub that tells you it can do 25hz is full of it--they lack the amp power or the driver isn't robust enough)

HSU--don't know much about them and they have a big following...know a guy who had it and liked it, but you're always taking a chance without auditioning it yourself

Martin Logan--they're new to the game (subs I mean), but their entry stuff isn't bad. Doesn't crank very well and bottoms out around 40hz in most rooms

I thought the Velodyne DEQ12R might have been too big for my office bedroom. Also I got the Martin Login for $200 less than the Velodyne. I agree that any sealed sub in a smaller enclosure won't extend down to 25 Hz. If we can't even trust established brick and mortar manufacturers not to lie, how can we trust an Internet dealer?

The problem with all the ID subs listed above is that none of them are sealed and also I'd want to hear one in person. If I had to return one, whatever savings would disappear on shipping back and forth. I did A/B compare some ported subs in the $500 price range and none of them were as good as the ML Dynamo. Next thing on my list is to get a sub for my 31.5' x 14' living/dining/kitchen. I wonder if a 15" sub can hit cleanly and tight. I think I can live with a large enclosure for my living room, but the challenge will be trying to find something closer to $500 than $1000. I'm going to spend quite a bit more time researching this one - perhaps buying around the end of the year. I rushed to get my office/bedroom system before I resume class next week and won't have any time for research the next couple of months.
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post #146 of 379 Old 08-22-2009, 01:50 PM
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(slightly deeper in-room)

What do you mean by "in-room"? If it's not a standard measurement, then we can't really use it to compare since they don't spec it and it's all a matter of opinion.
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post #147 of 379 Old 08-22-2009, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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What do you mean by "in-room"? If it's not a standard measurement, then we can't really use it to compare since they don't spec it and it's all a matter of opinion.

Hence the parentheses. Note that I said that all of the subs that I listed except the VTF-1 have strong output to at least 20hz. To clarify, this is BEFORE room gain. To be fair, lots of "specs" are useless anyway. Velodyne "specs" the DEQ12R to be +/- 3dB from 25hz-120hz, but doesn't specify the output level. Marc Johnson just admitted that it "plays cleanly to about 35hz," nearly half an octave short of it's what the "specs" indicate it should. So perhaps it can be +/- 3dB down to 25hz, but at a 70dB output level, which is barely even perceptible at that deep a frequency. Def Tech claims ridiculous extension numbers in the low teens for its small Super Cube line. These subs might reproduce those frequencies, but not in a way that would make you even notice them (unless you're staring at the driver flapping around).

On the other hand, SVS and some other ID companies provide an unsmoothed, quasi-anechoic frequency response graph of their subs at a more realistic output level (usually between 85-95dB) at the bottom of each product page. These charts show the subs to be quite flat down to at least 20hz - well within the +/- 3dB spec. If you don't believe the manufacturer, third party tests by Ilkka at Home Theater Shack and the guys at AVTalk confirm the true performance of subwoofers in unbiased, ground plane tests. You'd be surprised how many expensive subwoofers are outperformed by cheaper subs.

I'm not trying to argue that ID companies make the only subs worth look at. Your point of not being able to hear the subs first is a valid one, and of course it's a risk purchasing something you haven't seen/heard before in person. However, when you look at the overwhelming number of people on these forums who have moved from expensive "big name" subwoofers to much cheaper ID subs and found the ID subs to be better...well, there has to be some validity to the ID companies.
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post #148 of 379 Old 08-22-2009, 07:39 PM
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I'm swimming in all the options, so I'll post here and forego any notion of an ego about sorting this out myself:

Great advice - searched forum and could not find remedy to this specific problem posted here in format you rec'd:

Key limitations: Low budget.

Thanks a million for any rec's - I've been going crazy reading reviews. Thinking maybe a Velodyne but can't tell which.

1. Budget:

<$400

2. Size requirements/limits:

Small is nice to have, but not "requirement".

3. Room dimensions:

Finished attic space, 12'x23', with a 7' peak.

4. Primary uses:

50/30/20 movies/games/music

5. Listening habits:

Enjoy the realistic "thumps" in the home theater and gaming, moreso than any augmentation of music.

6. Appearance requirements: Low key - no shiny

Black or white. Doesn't matter.

7. Timeframe: Nothing specific.

Any suggestions here? I'm in no hurry, but there's just so much crap out there in my price range, that I want to get it right.

Other details are that I'm running a Denon AVR-1910 with 7 channels supported by identical Monoprice in-wall 6.5" kevlar speakers.
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post #149 of 379 Old 08-23-2009, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Any suggestions here? I'm in no hurry, but there's just so much crap out there in my price range, that I want to get it right.

Other details are that I'm running a Denon AVR-1910 with 7 channels supported by identical Monoprice in-wall 6.5" kevlar speakers.

For less than $400 the eD A2-300 is probably your best bet.
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post #150 of 379 Old 08-23-2009, 08:39 PM
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For less than $400 the eD A2-300 is probably your best bet.

Thanks. Much appreciated.
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