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post #1921 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 08:08 AM
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http://www.hometheaterblog.com/homet...as_hda2_f.html

Just to parse the significance of those fiirst impressions.

It looks like Toshiba has managed to correct all the major complaints of the first generation HD A1. Startup and load times, cludgy remote and responsiveness to commands.

Quote:


First off the new player loads much faster than the HD-A1 or HD-XA1, .....20 seconds or under, on-par with some of the Denon DVD players we're so fond of. It looks like sluggish load-times are a thing of the past at least with the A2 and XA2.

Slow boot up and load times corrected. Check

Quote:


The A2's remote was also an improvement; this remote resembles a, well, for lack of a better term a DVD remote, go figure.

Cludgy remote fixed. Check.

Quote:


Overall we were quite satisfied with the A2's performance and found that it operated much more like a standard DVD player, with of course the added benefit of pumping out gorgeous HD images

Player responsiveness to menus. Check.

If error checking and audio sync issues have also improved, the 1st generation issues seem to have been squashed.

Now I just have to hear how the HD XA2 is improved over the HD A2 and the HD XA1.

Their initial review to compare
http://www.hometheaterblog.com/homet...a_hda1_re.html

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post #1922 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 08:41 AM
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And to top it off, even better upscaling - not too shabby.
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post #1923 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

And to top it off, even better upscaling - not too shabby.

Thats my biggest fear that the simplier SOC components would somehow compromise on the upscaling capablity.

I think the 1st generation upscaling is superb. That's a significant differention for the entry level Blu-ray player, the PS3, which doesn't upscale. The RCA clone, even had " upscale your existing DVDs to near HD quality " right on the box.

If its even better in the 2nd generation, then wow.

Upscaling capability can be used by salespeople to upsell a consumer who is already considering a high end upconverting SD DVD player. If you were already committed to buying a new upconverting player to go along with your new HDTV, for a couple hundred bucks more you might be able to be talked into getting a upconverting player that also plays those new fangled HD DVDs to go along with you HD TV.

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post #1924 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 11:32 AM
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Glass Houses: Blu-ray or HD DVD? What the Market Needs to Know

Some new quotes from Andy Parsons and Mark Knox (back from his tour of Antarctica I guess ).

Quote from Andy Parsons:

Quote:


PlayStation 3 may be the first glimpse some consumers get of Blu-ray, and according to Parsons, PlayStation adds an extra million (estimated) players in the marketplace by the end of the year added to players from Samsung, Panasonic, Philips, Sony, and Pioneer.

I guess Andy might have been a little overzealous at the beginning of this year .

Pioneer exec expects 4 to 7 million PS3s by end of '06
-----------------------------------------------------
and from Michael Mitchell of Sony DADC:

Quote:


Sony DADC has six 50GB Blu-ray Disc production lines up and running (Adam Sandler's Click is a 50GB disc). The company is currently ramping up production to 60K discs per day. "We are encouraged by the performance of both our 25GB single-layer and 50GB dual-layer production technologies, both of which are meeting our expectations," ssays Michael Mitchell, executive VP, manufacturing and engineering for Sony DADC.

Still "ramping up" to 10K discs per day per line, and that is meeting Sony's expectations (not to mention hard coat costs)...I hope we can put an end to speculation that BD-50 is somehow cheap...
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post #1925 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 11:51 AM
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But, isn't BD50 a violation of law of physics and science fiction?
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post #1926 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rio View Post

But, isn't BD50 a violation of law of physics and science fiction?

Apparently not, just a very expensive optical disc.
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post #1927 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

So, simply having a ethernet connector is a guarantee that it's enabled for Live usage, and isn't just there for frimware updates?

No, what I said was that the absence of an ethernet connector would mean that it isn't capable of internet connectivity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

And this, Richard, is the crux of my argument. As you admit, there is much uncertainty around what a person is getting today, or will get, for thier $1000. I have NEVER seen a player advertisement disclose that it's a "BD-Video Only" player at a store, or online. Have you? Do you think even a fraction of those buying them have any idea these seperate profiles even exist?

No, and I certainly have no problem with people understanding that there are two profiles for Blu-ray. In the same way that I believe people should understand the positives and negatives of anything they are thinking of buying. At the same time though a lot of HD DVD supporters use this as a way to attack Blu-ray without understanding just how much is required from a BD-Live player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Much less Talks scenario where only some features may be added to a player via update?

Well just to defend this but isn't having something that wasn't originally there added to a player a good thing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

You ignore a key difference with your "both HD formats" comment, however: There is a single HDi profile day 1. There is no plan for there ever to be a title that won't work on the very first HD DVD player sold.

Actually all Blu-ray movies are designed to play on BD-Video players and it is only some of the extras that might now work. Which is why if you are interested in Blu-ray extras that I would recommend waiting for a BD-Live player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

So if someone IS interested I that type of activity, where is there ANY indication from CE vendors today that they aren't going to get it now and should wait perhaps a year before buying?

I'll leave the HDi jab alone.

Please don't leave the so called "HDi jab" alone since it is the root of the matter in this issue. A BD-Live player will most likely be capable of interactivity not possible on a HD DVD player so this is something that should be mentioned by those attacking the two profile nature of Blu-ray. You can't look at the negatives of something and than ignore the positives and still give a fair picture of why the the BDA made two profiles for Blu-ray. At the same time though I have no problem with people promoting the fact that better Blu-ray players will come out next year.
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post #1928 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post

Apparently not, just a very expensive optical disc.

Are the retail prices or average selling prices of BD-50 reflecting these high costs?

How much more are they than the comparable BD-25 release or the HD-DVD release?
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post #1929 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post

Apparently not, just a very expensive optical disc.

Do you know the actual costs of BD50 and combo HD30/DVD9 discs?
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post #1930 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 01:03 PM
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-Mr and Mrs Smith, Ice Age, Dodgeball and Commando (delayed from January) for March 13, according to highdefdigest

-The Departed (HD DVD and Blu-ray) will be released Feb. 13 or 20, according to davisdvd.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
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post #1931 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rio View Post

Do you know the actual costs of BD50 and combo HD30/DVD9 discs?

As long as they are "ramping up" BD-50 to 10,000 discs a day it is impossible to speculate how much it costs, as it could be 2,000 or 8,000 discs/day. Hard coat costs are speculative, as well.

Combo discs? who wants these? From Singulus brochure however,

(as of June 2006)

Performance HD DVD:
Cycle Time: 3.50 s
Guarantees: 90 % Yield / 90 % Uptime
Output: 20,000
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post #1932 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post

Combo discs? who wants these? From Singulus brochure however,

(as of June 2006)

Performance HD DVD:
Cycle Time: 3.50 s
Guarantees: 90 % Yield / 90 % Uptime
Output: 20,000

I believe combo HD DVD was at 75% yields and 5s cycle. Above was for SL/DL HD DVD. For BD-DL, 80% yields was singulus' goal EOY. No cycle time. DADC said they could do DL at around 80%. No cycle time was given.

HDPLEX
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post #1933 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

No, what I said was that the absence of an ethernet connector would mean that it isn't capable of internet connectivity.


No, and I certainly have no problem with people understanding that there are two profiles for Blu-ray. In the same way that I believe people should understand the positives and negatives of anything they are thinking of buying. At the same time though a lot of HD DVD supporters use this as a way to attack Blu-ray without understanding just how much is required from a BD-Live player.


Well just to defend this but isn't having something that wasn't originally there added to a player a good thing?


Actually all Blu-ray movies are designed to play on BD-Video players and it is only some of the extras that might now work. Which is why if you are interested in Blu-ray extras that I would recommend waiting for a BD-Live player.


Please don't leave the so called "HDi jab" alone since it is the root of the matter in this issue. A BD-Live player will most likely be capable of interactivity not possible on a HD DVD player so this is something that should be mentioned by those attacking the two profile nature of Blu-ray. You can't look at the negatives of something and than ignore the positives and still give a fair picture of why the the BDA made two profiles for Blu-ray. At the same time though I have no problem with people promoting the fact that better Blu-ray players will come out next year.

At this point, it's clear that BD players today aren't obviously disclosing that they won't enable all features of BluRay titles in the future, there is no general consensus on how to identify what players a feature might have, nor any way to discover dependancies that exist in the nether-profile that lies between BD-Video and BD-Live (up to 8 variations, inclusive).

Nobody here can define these, which means most consumers have about a 5% chance for having a clue. And this depite players currently being sold for significant sums of money.

-Steve
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post #1934 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 01:36 PM
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Talkstr8t-

I'm interested in your reply to THIS question.

I'd like to know why your different take on what appear to be the same sorts of issues.

Thanks.

-Steve
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post #1935 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post

As long as they are "ramping up" BD-50 to 10,000 discs a day it is impossible to speculate how much it costs, as it could be 2,000 or 8,000 discs/day. Hard coat costs are speculative, as well.

Combo discs? who wants these? From Singulus brochure however,

(as of June 2006)

Performance HD DVD:
Cycle Time: 3.50 s
Guarantees: 90 % Yield / 90 % Uptime
Output: 20,000

It seems that the number you quoted is not for DL/DL combo disc. Why I asked you about DL/DL combo is, it requires some sort of similar process utilized in BD50 replication. BTW, what does the "Output" mean? Does it indicate maximum output per day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy View Post

I believe combo HD DVD was at 75% yields and 5s cycle. Above was for SL/DL HD DVD. For BD-DL, 80% yields was singulus' goal EOY. No cycle time. DADC said they could do DL at around 80%. No cycle time was given.

If those numbers are accurate,

Output of DL/DL combo = 20,000 x 3.5/5 x 75/90 = 11,666

Hmm, it looks quite similar number to the DADC's output claim for BD50.

Anyway, where is the valid price/cost for us to declare "a very expensive optical disc"? Would anyone don't mind if I state "A2 is very expensive player to make"?
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post #1936 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 02:05 PM
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Talk aside, the end product needs to speak for itself. I'll be curious to see how many titles by the end of 2006 will be authored in BD-J, then how many from Jan 1 2007 - June 07. And what those ratios are in comparison to regular titles.
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post #1937 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

At this point, it's clear that BD players today aren't obviously disclosing that they won't enable all features of BluRay titles in the future, there is no general consensus on how to identify what players a feature might have, nor any way to discover dependancies that exist in the nether-profile that lies between BD-Video and BD-Live (up to 8 variations, inclusive).

Nobody here can define these, which means most consumers have about a 5% chance for having a clue. And this depite players currently being sold for significant sums of money.


Then don't buy any of them.

BTW, there won't be any reviews or any communications about features, including likely software upgrades, right?
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post #1938 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

-Mr and Mrs Smith, Ice Age, Dodgeball and Commando (delayed from January) for March 13, according to highdefdigest

-The Departed (HD DVD and Blu-ray) will be released Feb. 13 or 20, according to davisdvd.

Since when are movie disc releases at all important as news?

Gary


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post #1939 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

At this point, it's clear that BD players today aren't obviously disclosing that they won't enable all features of BluRay titles in the future,

Just as no product ever advertises what it can't do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

there is no general consensus on how to identify what players a feature might have,

Well that is only for features that might be added to an already shipped player and I am pretty sure they will advertise those features on a player that ships with them on day one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

nor any way to discover dependancies that exist in the nether-profile that lies between BD-Video and BD-Live (up to 8 variations, inclusive).

Which is why if you care about extras on Blu-ray it is best to buy a BD-Live player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

Nobody here can define these, which means most consumers have about a 5% chance for having a clue. And this depite players currently being sold for significant sums of money.

Welcome to the wonderful world of being an early adopter in which many people don't even know the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD.
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post #1940 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 03:54 PM
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Useless trivia for today:

1. There are actually three BD device profiles. Not two. The third one never gets any airtime, though. So little, in fact, the BDA themselves aren't even sure anymore if it's really a profile.

2. It's impossible to quote the cost of a BD50, because it's produced by one vendor, keen on bringing Soviet Union economics back in vogue. Moot point, though, so long as Sony is willing to eat the delta for the other studios.

Alex doesn't live here anymore
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post #1941 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians View Post

because it's produced by one vendor,

If every title were on DL-50GB, DADC should still be more than capable to cover the 25k-50k per title volume given its 60k/day capability. But I couldn't blame DADC for eating the delta. It is good for the consumers.

HDPLEX
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post #1942 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians View Post

1. There are actually three BD device profiles. Not two. The third one never gets any airtime, though. So little, in fact, the BDA themselves aren't even sure anymore if it's really a profile.

Alex, are you sure about that? Also if you are what exactly is required from this third profile and what is it called?
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post #1943 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Alex, are you sure about that? Also if you are what exactly is required from this third profile and what is it called?

it is called "bd rom profile 3" of course...
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post #1944 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

Then don't buy any of them.

BTW, there won't be any reviews or any communications about features, including likely software upgrades, right?


Well, problem is, I might like to. And I'm the "Tech Guy" for most of my family and many friends. So what do I tell Dad when he wants to know if he should plonk down some cash on BR player today?

"Well, if you do, they are going to start making discs that have additional features the players today don't have, that they may or may not update to support these features, and there's no clear indication that you will be able to know before you buy either a player or a title in the next 7 months if all the features on the title will work on the player you have. If that makes you a little nervous, the general consnsus is don't buy until the middle of the next calendar year."

Seriously, is THAT the message the BR consortium wants to get across? I mean that's the real advice people are giving here... out of necessity it appears .

And, no I'm not saying there will be no communication but business is being done TODAY. The reality is:

- There are players now being sold with no clear indication to consumers that they are BD-Video

- There is no clear indication if these players have the hardware to even spport all of the -Live features in the future, or if the vendors are willing to commit to do so

-There are titles now that are BD-Video only

- Future titles will require one or more additional BD-J capabilites for all the features to work

- A BD insider has suggested that firmware updates that are being announced NOW may be adding some subset of these capabilites, but what those may be are not being disclosed

- There is no published plan for labeling to allow a consumer to know what features a title will require, other than perhaps "BD-Live", in which case a consumer will either have to take his chance purchasing the title and see if it may play his player that has one of these "mystery firmware updates", or he can go the safe route and scrap his current player and buy another one in 7 months.


Seriously.. the time for commuincation is NOW. Or more accurately some time back when Samsung first started accepting their customer's credit cards without anybody telling them they will have a "next gen" player that will only be capable of playing a subset of all the features that will be avialable on BR discs in a just a few months.

-Steve
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post #1945 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

Talk, can you explain what this means to any BR players purchased before June 2007? Will they be updated or just not able to function on any titles that use BD-Live?

June 2007 has nothing to do with BD-Live. BD-Live machines must have ethernet and PiP support regardless of release date. Non-BD-Live machines released after 6/07 must have PiP. I wouldn't be surprised to see some currently-available players assumed to lack PiP support actually be capable of such support.

Regarding titles, worst case if your player doesn't support a feature, it doesn't mean the whole disc doesn't work, just that you don't get that feature.

Blu-ray Insider
Speaking solely for myself, not the BDA
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post #1946 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Just as no product ever advertises what it can't do.

Unless there's a general expectation that it should be able to. I understand "Talk up you stregths" marketing... but do you really think somebody who buys a $1000 player for Xmas today is going to be pleased that it doesn't even allow him to see the PiP director commentary on a movie in 6 months ??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Well that is only for features that might be added to an already shipped player and I am pretty sure they will advertise those features on a player that ships with them on day one.


Which is why if you care about extras on Blu-ray it is best to buy a BD-Live player.


Welcome to the wonderful world of being an early adopter in which many people don't even know the differences between Blu-ray and HD DVD.

Exactly Richard... EXACTLY.. they don't know that, yet in the previous sentence you expect them to know the difference between BD-Video and BD-Live.

Do me a favor, and point me to any readily avaialble sources (advertisements, overviews from CE vendors, etc... ) that specifies what profiles a player has, would you? You know... one that would hepl a consumer to decide to wait to buy a BD-Live player.

-Steve
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post #1947 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

June 2007 has nothing to do with BD-Live. BD-Live machines must have ethernet and PiP support regardless of release date. Non-BD-Live machines released after 6/07 must have PiP. I wouldn't be surprised to see some currently-available players assumed to lack PiP support actually be capable of such support.

Regarding titles, worst case if your player doesn't support a feature, it doesn't mean the whole disc doesn't work, just that you don't get that feature.

So, is there any deadline for BD-Live players? I'll assume if that JUST PiP is mandatory for 6/07, then full -Live might be sometime after that? Three months? Six? Could we be waiting a full year from now for enough hardware to be released to support -Live that the studios start using the features? Could we be looking at '08 before we see PiP generally avialable?

And how sure of you about the June '07 date? I've reason to believe that there may be some push back on that from CE vendors....

-Steve
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post #1948 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenDover View Post

it is called "bd rom profile 3" of course...

And is for audio only players....
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post #1949 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 06:07 PM
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Steve, after trying to catch up on two day's worth of postings I'm not going to respond point-by-point to each of your posts, but give you a general response.

Yes, it's true that the existing players don't make it apparent whether they support PiP, how much persistent storage they have, etc. Bottom line, as a prospective consumer we're still clearly in the early adopter period where you may well end up with a machine which won't support everything follow-on machines will. If you have the stomach (and the wallet) for this, great - buy the best model you can and enjoy. If not you're better off waiting until things mature a bit and you're comfortable with the purchase. I certainly wouldn't purchase a player which doesn't advertise PiP support in the hopes that someday it will if PiP is important to me. I suspect the PS3 will be fully BD-Live compliant, but until someone from Sony officially says so, I'm only speculating.

Will discs be released in the future with features that today's players can't fully support? Almost certainly. In addition to compliance there are performance issues. Just as certain PC games won't run on under-equipped PC's, it will certainly be possible to author BD content which won't run on "under-equipped" BD players (i.e. those with insufficient processing or graphics power). I don't know if there will ever be a labelling system or a matrix of players and titles which makes it obvious which features work on which players. Incidentally, HD-DVD is going to have the same problem, unless the content developers agree to never release content which can't run on every player, in which case you're going to find innovation seriously lacking in the years to come.

Bottom line, of today's players the PS3 is most likely to support every disc for the foreseeable future, but even that isn't guaranteed. If you want another player and you care greatly about interactivity you should be prepared at some point to sell your player (to someone who just wants to "watch the damn movie", of which there seem to be plenty around here) and buy a newer player which does (for the moment) support everything.

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post #1950 of 3949 Old 12-12-2006, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

If they have to film peole doing commentary, then production costs will be much higher. They have to hire a filming crew, makeup people, studio time, etc.

That means those costs are passed on.

Unless it means more people buy the disc, in which case costs are more than covered and profits are higher. Which is, of course, the point of this whole exercise, since everything about high-def optical media is more expensive than SD.

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