Format Battle General Discussion Thread: Discuss it here! - Page 25 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #721 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

How can you be so sure... When and if all of these HDi networking applications get here the A1 will be as archaic as stone knives and hatchets. They can't seem to get the FW fixed to address known issues, so how can you expect them to support something new ??

b2b

Now me thinks that you need to actually try a player before bashing one...especially one which once 'fixed' gives us an excellent picture along with audio. I have not had a glitch since July of this year when v1.4 was installed.

I also get the feeling that the BD side would have as many or more reported problems with the hardware/software situation if the majority of AVS'ers were buying those units and taking the same hard look at the hardware.

In fact every time a new format is introduced, people have problems using the technology (hooking it up, interfacing it with existing equipment). This is a fact of life....

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post #722 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by homerx View Post

The ethernet port is an alright idea but not everyone has highspeed internet which would be need for differrent things to happen.
So, hopfully they don't make it a must have.

Has anybody thought maybe nether format will win. Prehapps both will be around for awile and just be in the shadows like LD and DVHS. DVD is a very strong format the strongest ever to think a new format will snuff it out or demnish it to that of VHS.

I don't think the over all improvent of either new format is enough to make pepole want to change. Many don't have the TVs needed to fully use them. Most homes with a HDTV are under 32" so the increscced PQ does not justify the price of both formats 500-1000 for a player 20-40 for amovie.

Dvd 30 bucks a player and 5-30 a movie. How can you compete with that.DVds higher selling price over VHS only won out becase the increced benfit could be seen on any TV. Every down side to VHS was over come with DVD. All the new HD formats do is improve on that of DVD.

Well, I've put forward the possibility that the market could shift to downloads before either of the new formats gains criticsal mass. Similar to the music market where MP3s are the growing market and CDs remain the physical medium of choice (after a failed format war between SACD and DVD-A). It would be really sad to see though.

Where did you get your data regarding the market share of HDTVs based on size.? I'd be very interested in seeing that.
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post #723 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

How can you be so sure... When and if all of these HDi networking applications get here the A1 will be as archaic as stone knives and hatchets. They can't seem to get the FW fixed to address known issues, so how can you expect them to support something new ??

b2b

More FUD nonsense - when the A2 etc are out, the A1 will be "archaic" only from a performance standpoint (load times, boot times etc) NOT from a FUNCTIONAL standpoint (like HDi).

UNLIKE the current standalone Bluray players which will be obsolete both from the performance, and the functional standpoints (thanks to two new BD Java specs from June 07)...
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post #724 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

More FUD nonsense - when the A2 etc are out, the A1 will be "archaic" only from a performance standpoint (load times, boot times etc) NOT from a FUNCTIONAL standpoint (like HDi).

UNLIKE the current standalone Bluray players which will be obsolete both from the performance, and the functional standpoints (thanks to two new BD Java specs from June 07)...

All of those new HDi apps are going to have to run on the same HW in the A1 that gives the slow "archaic" performance right now. So you really think they are going to hold back HD-DVD forever just to accommodate antique A1 HW ??

b2b

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post #725 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 05:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

All of those new HDi apps are going to have to run on the same HW in the A1 that gives the slow "archaic" performance right now. So you really think they are going to hold back HD-DVD forever just to accommodate antique A1 HW ??

b2b

Computationally, A1 runs circles around 2 or 3 BD players . Indeed, if our optimized HDi implementation in A2 is put in A1, it may outpeform the PS3! OK, just kidding about PS3 . But you really need to think through these arguments. Slow drive access does not mean slow graphics performance. The fastest and slowest PCs read your CD-Rom at the same speed...
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post #726 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

(thanks to two new BD Java specs from June 07)...

That's incorrect. There is only one specification for BD. It includes all features (BD-Video, BD-J and BD-Live) today.

As part of that single specification, there's a table that describes what is mandatory and what is optional for each profile. Profile 1 will become more strict (that is, more features will be mandatory) after June 2007.

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post #727 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

All of those new HDi apps are going to have to run on the same HW in the A1 that gives the slow "archaic" performance right now. So you really think they are going to hold back HD-DVD forever just to accommodate antique A1 HW ??

b2b

Just because the A1 has a slow boot up time doesn't meant the box itself is slow. Haven't we seen information posted saying that the Pentium CPUs in the A2/XA2 are slower than the Pentium CPUs in the A1/XA1?

I don't expect HDi or BD-J to be particularly system taxing for any of these players. I believe these apps are generally pretty small. So I don't think the A1 will hold back the format becuase of HDi preformance. In contrast the BD folks aren't going to let their early players hold the format back, are they.
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post #728 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 06:32 PM
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Happy New Year, Everyone!

b2b, the Java Bluray players are very sluggish to operate during playback, even the simplest functions, yet the A1 is very snappy (yes, not counting the bootup time).

So when you talk about sluggish, that's really ironic.

Ron, with all due respect, none of these conversations would be happening if there were only ONE Bluray spec, NOR would there be different spec names if there were one spec...

Happy New Year again, to all!
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post #729 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Ron, with all due respect, none of these conversations would be happening if there were only ONE Bluray spec, NOR would there be different spec names if there were one spec...

You forget that I'm an insider, and have actually read the specification. I assure everyone on AVSForum, there is only one BD specification.

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post #730 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

You forget that I'm an insider, and have actually read the specification. I assure everyone on AVSForum, there is only one BD specification.

Ron

When do you expect we'll see a BD player available for sale that supports all of the spec? The full feature set, like an ethernet port, BD-Live, PiP, etc. (all the bells and whistles).


Happy New Years Everyone!!!!!!!!!
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post #731 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

Just because the A1 has a slow boot up time doesn't meant the box itself is slow. Haven't we seen information posted saying that the Pentium CPUs in the A2/XA2 are slower than the Pentium CPUs in the A1/XA1?

I don't expect HDi or BD-J to be particularly system taxing for any of these players. I believe these apps are generally pretty small. So I don't think the A1 will hold back the format becuase of HDi preformance. In contrast the BD folks aren't going to let their early players hold the format back, are they.

Reports I have read say that it is a 900mhz dual core CPU. I don't think you could call that slower..

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post #732 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 08:23 PM
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Just a FYI on the tangle of who owns what in Hollywood studio land..
Quote:


Universal Pictures and Focus Features are owned by NBC Universal, a joint venture of General Electric Co. and Vivendi Universal;

Sony Pictures, Sony Screen Gems and Sony Pictures Classics are units of Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).;

DreamWorks, Paramount and Paramount Vantage are divisions of Viacom Inc.;

Disney's parent is The Walt Disney Co.; Miramax is a division of The Walt Disney Co.;

20th Century Fox, Fox Searchlight Pictures and Fox Atomic are owned by News Corp.;

Warner Bros., New Line, Warner Independent and Picturehouse are units of Time Warner Inc.;

MGM is owned by a consortium of Providence Equity Partners, Texas Pacific Group, Sony Corp., Comcast Corp., DLJ Merchant Banking Partners and Quadrangle Group;

Lionsgate is owned by Lionsgate Entertainment Corp.;

IFC Films is owned by Rainbow Media Holdings, a subsidiary of Cablevision Systems Corp.

b2b

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post #733 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 08:59 PM
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Happy New Year to all..



b2b

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post #734 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

Reports I have read say that it is a 900mhz dual core CPU. I don't think you could call that slower..

b2b

Do you have links to any of the reports? I'm curious about this because I don't think there's a chip like this from Intel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...icroprocessors

I wonder if they're taking a faster CPU that they're clocking down to 900Mhz.
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post #735 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

Do you have links to any of the reports? I'm curious about this because I don't think there's a chip like this from Intel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...icroprocessors

I wonder if they're taking a faster CPU that they're clocking down to 900Mhz.

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9129563

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post #736 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

Now THAT's really interesting... Pray tell how so?

Well for why I think that BD-J is superior to HDi it is simply an opinion based on what I have read about the two interactive systems. Also just to ask this one last time but do you believe that everything that BD-J can do can also be done with HDi?


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Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

Where ? I remember looking for it a minute back !

nataraj, just to clarify but are you actually saying that since you could not buy a PS3 that you do not consider it to be available? If so than based on that logic would you agree that for many people the Xbox 360 wasn't available until 2006?
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post #737 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 09:31 PM
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Thanks b2b. All the best to you and your family in the new year.
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post #738 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

Thanks b2b. All the best to you and your family in the new year.

Best regards to you and yours also..

b2b

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post #739 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 10:09 PM
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Great thread, lots of interesting info. No confirmation of dual core. This looks to be an older single core pentium, and probably plenty powerful for the simple sort of applications you would run on a stand alone disc player.

Here's another interesting site I came across.

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

The main CCU is an Intel Celeron M 900 - LE80554/SL8XS. This Customer CCU runs with 900 MHz, had 0kb Second level Cache and a FSB from 400MHz. The A1 had blocked and had however still another Pentium 4 with 2.5Ghz partially the work of the NEC chip blocked now in the HD-E1 to take over.

It looks like the A1/XA1 were using the Pentium for something that has now been moved over to the NEC asic allowing Toshiba to go to a lower power, lower cost air cooled CPU.
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post #740 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

Great thread, lots of interesting info. No confirmation of dual core. This looks to be an older single core pentium, and probably plenty powerful for the simple sort of applications you would run on a stand alone disc player.

Here's another interesting site I came across.

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

The main CCU is an Intel Celeron M 900 - LE80554/SL8XS. This Customer CCU runs with 900 MHz, had 0kb Second level Cache and a FSB from 400MHz. The A1 had blocked and had however still another Pentium 4 with 2.5Ghz partially the work of the NEC chip blocked now in the HD-E1 to take over.

It looks like the A1/XA1 were using the Pentium for something that has now been moved over to the NEC asic allowing Toshiba to go to a lower power, lower cost air cooled CPU.

Looks like we found the same page at the same time... I was just about to post the link.

Edit: Well almost the same..
http://translate.google.com/translat...&hl=en&ie=UTF8

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post #741 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 10:44 PM
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Your link was better b2b.


Here's another. I don't think anyone has posted this yet.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/31...t-price-drops/

.........has some sort of "announcement" up its sleeve reserved for January 7th. Reportedly, "a group of companies supporting the HD DVD format will hold a news conference" on the first Sunday of the new year, and Yoshihide Fujii -- president and CEO of Toshiba's digital media network company -- is slated to announce the firm's path forward for 2007. When asked if the conference would unveil lower-priced HD DVD players, Fujii remained quiet, but did mention that he thought the "next price threshold would be $399, with $299 to follow after that."

To answer your previous question.....who would want to enter this market?.....perhaps the Chinese? Look out below......
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post #742 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 10:52 PM
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Happy New Year to All!

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post #743 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

Your link was better b2b.


Here's another. I don't think anyone has posted this yet.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/12/31...t-price-drops/

.........has some sort of "announcement" up its sleeve reserved for January 7th. Reportedly, "a group of companies supporting the HD DVD format will hold a news conference" on the first Sunday of the new year, and Yoshihide Fujii -- president and CEO of Toshiba's digital media network company -- is slated to announce the firm's path forward for 2007. When asked if the conference would unveil lower-priced HD DVD players, Fujii remained quiet, but did mention that he thought the "next price threshold would be $399, with $299 to follow after that."

To answer your previous question.....who would want to enter this market?.....perhaps the Chinese? Look out below......

There are reports that of some of the A2s being sourced from China, so it wouldn't be a big surprise.

b2b

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post #744 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by b2bonez View Post

There are reports that of some of the A2s being sourced from China, so it wouldn't be a big surprise.

b2b

I believe there is more to it than that. I expect that we'll see an announcement of a Chinese branded HD-DVD player priced at $399. We'll find out for sure in a week.
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post #745 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

When do you expect we'll see a BD player available for sale that supports all of the spec? The full feature set, like an ethernet port, BD-Live, PiP, etc. (all the bells and whistles).

I believe Sony has already shifted about 1 million of them, pending future software patches...
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post #746 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

I believe there is more to it than that. I expect that we'll see an announcement of a Chinese branded HD-DVD player priced at $399. We'll find out for sure in a week.

More interesting will be to see if any SoC HD-DVD players are announced. The current PC/Intel-CPU Tosh player designs look a bit expensive to build going forward.

The German site even made mention of that.. (if I read the translation correctly)
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The Main PCB after all radiators were removed. A complete pallet shows up at Intel chips. In the following the chips in detail presented. Here it becomes then also clear or others why the devices are still more expensive and must to or other corner for it be saved. Because the construction units are not favorable really straight and without subsidy on the part of Toshiba would be also not at all feasible the derzeitge introductary price!

b2b

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post #747 of 6336 Old 12-31-2006, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Innerloop View Post

I believe Sony has already shifted about 1 million of them, pending future software patches...

Possibly, but there's also no commitment from Sony to add those features to the PS3. I think there's a good chance that they can, but they may decide it would erode the market for higher priced stand alone players and not implement them.

So if you know of a BD player that is at least promised to have all of those features at some point, please let me know.
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post #748 of 6336 Old 01-01-2007, 12:00 AM
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Happy New Years---West Coast!!!!
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post #749 of 6336 Old 01-01-2007, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

Possibly, but there's also no commitment from Sony to add those features to the PS3. I think there's a good chance that they can, but they may decide it would erode the market for higher priced stand alone players and not implement them.

So if you know of a BD player that is at least promised to have all of those features at some point, please let me know.

"We'll find out for sure in a week"..



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post #750 of 6336 Old 01-01-2007, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post

So, assuming that all players after 6/07 have PiP, I have a few questions:

What is the "-Video" profile? Is it the pre-6/07 players, or the post 6/07 players?

As Dr1394 said, BD-Video profile becomes more strict as of 6/07.
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Is persistent storage of any arbitrary size required, ether after the 6/07 deadline, or for -Live ?

There are two concepts - persistent storage (for bookmarks and such) and local storage (for downloaded A/V, updated disc contents, etc.). According to this FAQ, as of 6/07 BD-Video players must have 256MB of local storage while BD-Live players must have 1GB. Note that the PS3's clearly meet this requirement since they have a minimum 20GB hard drive.
Quote:
Is it possible for a pre-6/07 player that has a net jack (i.e. the Pio today, and maybe some CES players?) that were to be enabled for interactivity, but NOT have PiP to be qualified as a -Live player?

Nope. BD-Live players must support all features including PiP.

- Talk

Blu-ray Insider
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