So now that HD-DVD AACS is cracked? - Right before CES. - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 03:57 AM
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necrolop:

If I understand the hack correctly what has to be done to fix the hack is for Interlink to encrypt the portion of memory that stores the encryption key for the disc being played. Of course Interlink isn't MS and they can't force the update to existing copies in the field

This (again) assumes that the report is valid and it has not yet been substantiated.

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post #92 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by xbdestroya View Post

The piracy operations I'm refering to don't use burners, they use professional replication equipment (stamps); I think that's an important point to be understood here.

And again John, although I do appreciate the reasoning behind the economic excercise you are conducting, what the key issue here is... is studio perception of which format will more securely guarantee revenues do not get redirected towards illicit operations.

I agree with you that the time for mass piracy on either format is not the present; the ROI simply would not be there. But if and when AACS gets cracked, this replication scenario will be a very real factor in the studios consideration. They plan for the future as well as the present, even if sometimes their behaviour would seem to indicate otherwise.

I don't see commercial pirates as having access to the commercial stamping lines at this point in time.

Maybe I'm wrong...

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post #93 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 04:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post

At this point this hack has yet to be proven (he has not released any title Keys) so all he has done is created a nonAACS decryption engine without releasing the title keys. The real hack is finding the title key in memory (which he has yet to prove)

Until he proves he has the title keys, this is just alot of hot air.....

the guy already has a version that is using the volume key, which he claimed more powerful than the title key. He will be releasing the new version on Jan 2

Ironically he's using a MS product to break it, X360 HD-DVD drive..*sighs* why should we be surprised
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post #94 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Petra View Post

the guy already has a version that is using the volume key, which he claimed more powerful than the title key. He will be releasing the new version on Jan 2

Ironically he's using a MS product to break it, X360 HD-DVD drive..*sighs* why should we be surprised

The brand of drive is irrelevant. It's the software that is flawed. And it isn't MS's software.

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post #95 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 04:08 AM - Thread Starter
 
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It's all over the internet already, in many techies, gaming forums, etc.....


the news should be in Microsoft/Toshiba/Universal offices by now
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post #96 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by shakafell View Post

Oh believe me they certainly have access to them for CDs and DVDs. But probably not HDDVD or BD yet.

Theres a rumor that the same plants that make real DVDs during the day turn around and make the pirate ones at night. Its all gang controlled in some parts of Asia. I don't know if there are any HDDVD or BD plants in Asia yet but the same thing will probably happen with them at some point.

Depending on your perspective the "good" (bad) news is that there probably isn't sufficient volume to warrant the effort at this point.

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post #97 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 04:17 AM
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Another opinion...

No, AACS Was Not Cracked

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All that happened was the method Cyberlink to decrypt AACS used was semi-compromised. Their implemention kept the key in memory, a key which is needed to legally decrypt the content protection. What is likely going to happen is that specific key will be revoked, and Cyberlink will have to issue an update in order to play newer titles. CSS didn't have a good way to revoke the keys, AACS does.

Waiting to see what Cyberlink and AACS said happened, but I don't see that AACS was cracked.

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post #98 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 04:20 AM
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mike:

Several of us have said that the actual algorithm appears to still be secure

But good post nonetheless!

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post #99 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

Several of us have said that the actual algorithm appears to still be secure

But good post nonetheless!

Ironically, according to some news outlets, this makes HD DVD even more desirable to consumers...

HD DVD's AACS Protection Bypassed. In Only 8 Days?!

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The implications of this already-tested bypass-method are numerous, but perhaps the most important are linked to the HD DVD vs. Blu Ray battle. This could mean that Sony's investment in PS3 (with the famous Blu Ray optical drive attached) will become the company's biggest blunder, since consumers will likely prefer HD DVD instead of the Blu Ray.

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post #100 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 05:22 AM
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If AACS is in fact temporarily hacked, it means just as much bad studio mojo (for a lack of better term) for BD as HD DVD

The format war gets everyone carried away, and I understand the Blu-ray supporters getting excited over the possibility that Blu-ray might get a leg up on HD DVD because of this. However, the reality is that first and foremost everyone is a fan of HighDef optical disc and this hacking, if it in fact is viable, does NO ONE any favors. Even the biggest fans of either format should not be oblivious to the fact that ANY hacking is bad for the future success of HighDef optical disc. If in fact AACS has been hacked after only 5-6 months, just how does this make any Blu-ray supporter feel secure. A "torched earth" view (I want everything reduced to rubble as long as I win) is not good for anyone. There are many ways for either format to become the winner of the format war, but hoping for the collpase of the anti-piracy capabilities of either format should not be on anyone's list, no matter how strong they support either format.
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post #101 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 05:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Also Amir as much as you mock the added security features in Blu-ray last I checked Fox considers them to be important.

They absolutely do. But it sure would be funny if it turned out that neither the players nor their own discs use BD+. Where do you think that leaves them wrt to promises made by BDA to get their support?

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Just a hunch but a studio that owns content probably cares a lot about protecting that content.

They absolutely do. That is why I say that a break of AACS will be taken most seriously by the three AACS founders in that group. Remember that other than Fox, other studios have not been so keen to use BD+ due to cost and expense of managing that system, once it is available.

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Of course you have implied that Fox is foolish/ignorant about copy protection methods but I for one am skeptical of that.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say foolish and ignorant. We simply don't share their technical view of BD+ adding meaningful level of security to AACS, despite the much added complexity and consumer angst about a copy protection program that lives on their media, after what happened with Sony/BMG.

At this same time, this potential break, if it comes to pass, should be a wake up call for everyone regarding effectiveness of other measures. Think about it for a moment. If a hacker got access to AACS logic in a software player, what makes you think he can't do the same for BD+ code running in the same player?

And what do you know about renewability measures in BD+ wrt to its cryptographic keys? And if both BD+ and AACS are hacked, what complexity is there for end users to "fix" their machines for both subsystems? Maybe such complexity is what is still being worked on in BDA.
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post #102 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

We simply don't share their technical view of BD+ adding meaningful level of security to AACS.


Do you have enough BD+ technical knowledge to make such judgement?
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post #103 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 06:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Petra View Post

Do you have enough BD+ technical knowledge to make such judgement?

We certainly do. Let me talk about public things.

The BD+ technology was proposed to DVD Forum first, where a working group was created to study it. That group was chaired by Microsoft (someone on my team). The group then by large majority consensus, deemed the technology as not being suitable for inclusion in HD DVD spec for reasons I gave (and then some). The proposal was then moved on to AACS, where Microsoft is a founder, and one of the most active companies. Again, AACS refused to accept the technology as not being suitable. Note that majority vote is in the hands of BDA companies in AACS (ditto for DVD Forum).

Beyond this, I can not comment on anything else. But suffice it to say, as someone who manages the content protection group at Microsoft (for many years), and whose team represents Microsoft in the above groups, we live and breath this stuff. So you are not hearing the views of a random insider here .
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post #104 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

They absolutely do. But it sure would be funny if it turned out that neither the players nor their own discs use BD+. Where do you think that leaves them wrt to promises made by BDA to get their support?

BD+ is something though that Fox can use if they want with Blu-ray while it is not an option with HD DVD. As such the fact that Fox is not using BD+ today does not change the fact that it is one of the reasons that they support Blu-ray.


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Why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say foolish and ignorant.

To be accurate I said that you implied that. After all you have said that BD+ is useless and that Fox only believes that BD+ is useful because they do not know as much as Microsoft.


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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If a hacker got access to AACS logic in a software player, what makes you think he can't do the same for BD+ code running in the same player?

If AACS is eventually hacked that does not mean the same method of attack would work on BD+. Or to use an analogy of a door that has two locks just because somebody can pick one lock with a certain method doesn't mean they can pick both with that same method.


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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

And what do you know about renewability measures in BD+ wrt to its cryptographic keys? And if both BD+ and AACS are hacked, what complexity is there for end users to "fix" their machines for both subsystems? Maybe such complexity is what is still being worked on in BDA.

Well if you are implying that complexity is the reason that BD+ is not being used yet that would make sense.


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Originally Posted by Petra View Post

Do you have enough BD+ technical knowledge to make such judgement?

Amir has implied in several past posts that Microsoft has access to the BD+ specs, but just because Microsoft has the technical knowledge on BD+ doesn't mean they are going to give it a fair look. After all Microsoft has every reason in the world to find fault in BD+ considering that it is only used by Blu-ray.
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post #105 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 06:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Do you really believe this? How can the HD DVD spec possibly have any bearing on what you do to a signal after it's output from the HD DVD player?

No product differentiation would exist if the standards orgs spec'ed everything. No CE company would go for such tight restrictions. Same reason why we spec decoders for codecs and not encoders as to leave room for differentiation.

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The HD DVD spec requires HDCP for 1080 HDMI output, right?

Most definitely NOT. The HD DVD spec has no mention of HDCP for 1080i HDMI or otherwise.

AACS is the group that cares about copy protection measures for both formats. But even that group does not "spec" HDCP per-se. Instead, it stipulates that for digital outputs, some form of copy protection measure must be in place. In then goes on to approve HDCP as one measure. It could approve other measures in the future from other orgs. One could imagine DisplayPort being deployed for example and still be compliant with AACS. So you see, even here differentiation is allowed and top of mind.

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There are aftermarket products which can strip the HDCP from the output. Does that mean I can build a compliant HD DVD player with no HDCP output on HDMI?

You could build an HD DVD player with such hacks or no HDCP support at all and still be fully compliant. But you would not be able to get a license to AACS to decrypt commercial content using it. Your player however can play unprotected HD DVDs just fine.

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Of course not. Your argument that you can post-process the HD DVD output to get 24p has absolutely no bearing on whether a compliant HD DVD player can be built which supports 24p output.

As Ben mentioned, there are already software players that can do 24p. If they can do it, and still be logo compliant, then you have no case here.

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No, I don't think it's more expensive to output the original 24p, assuming there's nothing in the HD DVD spec (such as what PiP framerates are allowed) which prevents you from simply outputting 24p.

Good that we agree now on 24p not being expensive.

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No, a myth suggests there is no credible basis for the claims.

BDA used to claim that only BD could do 1080p. That was a myth and was blown away a few months later with announcement of 1080p HD DVD players. Do you really want to do that now with 24p?
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post #106 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 06:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

If AACS is eventually hacked that does not mean the same method of attack would work on BD+.

Well, I suggested a method. If a program can fetch in-memory data from a player for AACS, what logic can you present that would avoid doing the same for BD+? Why would this same method of attack not work? I am sure you know where I am going with this. And if you don't, then your assertion that it doesn't work, doesn't change the argument.

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Or to use an analogy of a door that has two locks just because somebody can pick one lock with a certain method doesn't mean they can pick both with that same method.

No, the right analogy is if someone drives through your front door with a car, why you think the second lock does anything for you. . Think about this and then read my above answer once more.

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Amir has implied in several past posts that Microsoft has access to the BD+ specs, but just because Microsoft has the technical knowledge on BD+ doesn't mean they are going to give it a fair look. After all Microsoft has every reason in the world to find fault in BD+ considering that it is only used by Blu-ray.

I accept the accusation of bias although as I post in the parallel thread, both DVD Forum and AACS examined core technology in BD+ and refused to include it in their respective standards. So our view is shared by majority companies in both of those organizations, representing both BD and HD DVD formats.

Since we have BD insiders here now who are involved with this part of the standard, why not ask them why they keep BD+ spec secret? The full specification for AACS is open so that people could learn about things like ICT. Why hasn't BDA done the same for BD+? Do they fear that people would dislike something that is in there? Some other reason? Wouldn't this discussion be a lot more meaningful if BD+ spec was public? And that peer review of BD+ would have only helped make it stronger.
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post #107 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 06:44 AM
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eventually it will be as easy as buying a copy of AnyDVD from slysoft.com inorder to copy BD and HD DVD. I do not see what all of the debate is about. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.
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post #108 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 06:45 AM
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"Cracking" AACS in this way is a piece of cake for many hackers because decrypting (decoding, to be more precise) of something is almost trivial thing on PC. As I understand there is the only one obstacle for piracy: watermarks in audio/video signal (like are used on some DVD-Audio discs). In this case audio/video content has to be unpacked, watermaks removed, then packed to an original stream with the loss of an original sound/picture quality. Otherwise watermarks-aware device (player) just will not play...
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post #109 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 06:50 AM
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I think if anything this is good for HD DVD. Yes, the studios won't like it and studio support is important but in the end it is the consumers who will decide the winner and most consumers would think of this as a plus. (If they think about it at all)

HD BLOG: TeknologikL
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post #110 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:00 AM
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It seems at the end of the thread we're really getting to the point. AACS was **NOT** cracked. The software program was cracked. As someone mentioned, MS/Toshiba/Studios are verifying this right now I bet. If the software program was compromised, the license keys will be revoked and that's the end of that.
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post #111 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Schlotkins View Post

It seems at the end of the thread we're really getting to the point. AACS was **NOT** cracked. The software program was cracked. As someone mentioned, MS/Toshiba/Studios are verifying this right now I bet. If the software program was compromised, the license keys will be revoked and that's the end of that.

the bottom line is 150+ hddvd movies can be ripped with the current software.
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post #112 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

What I find truly hilarious about this thread, is how Amir keeps pushing this off an a non-issue. Microsoft is one of the, if not the most, anal about copyright protection. Yet, with dealing with the distribution of copyrighted material they don't own, they become very disinterested. You can bet, if Microsoft were to own some of these movies that are being sold on HD DVD, they would have come up with some DRM that would check the movie and player legality every time it booted up.

Sad and so funny at the same time, but not worth searching the history.

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #113 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kotches View Post

I don't see commercial pirates as having access to the commercial stamping lines at this point in time.

Maybe I'm wrong...

Cheers,

No, I doubt they do also. But it's not 'this point in time' that ROM-Mark helps with. It's the situation three years from now when these formats have reached, hopefully, some appreciable level of market penetration.
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post #114 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mikemorel View Post

Another opinion...

No, AACS Was Not Cracked

That's inaccurate.

A valid player (device) key was found to be able to decrypt title (media) keys for the various discs.

Once a valid title (media) key is found, there is NO WAY to revoke it.

They can revoke player (device) keys, but not the title keys.
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post #115 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:33 AM
 
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Originally Posted by joshd2012 View Post

What I find truly hilarious about this thread, is how Amir keeps pushing this off an a non-issue.

Pushing what off as non-issue? I have not even come close to saying the attack is non-issue. The discussion has drifted into BD+ which is unrelated to original topic and hence my comments on its effectiveness. Any verified attacks on AACS will be taken very seriously by us. As will by other AACS founders and studios.

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Microsoft is one of the, if not the most, anal about copyright protection. Yet, with dealing with the distribution of copyrighted material they don't own, they become very disinterested.

Microsoft is a founding member of AACS. We were one of the key companies that developed the core technology in there and provide our patents for basically zero financial return in that organization. This is on top of one of the groups that I manage which does nothing but develop content protection technologies. If we didn't care, I could save a ton of money this way .

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You can bet, if Microsoft were to own some of these movies that are being sold on HD DVD, they would have come up with some DRM that would check the movie and player legality every time it booted up.

I think you may be confused about our lack of interest in BD+ as lack of interest in protecting content in general. That is quite wrong. It is a bit like saying because Sony doesn't like HD DVD, they must hate optical formats in general. We don't love everything just because it claims to protect content in some manner.

We care greatly about any potential breaks of AACS. We simply don't believe these other technologies outside of AACS are effective measures considering the complexity they bring. AACS however, is something we are 100% behind and we will work vigorously to help thwart any attacks to it, should it occur in our products. And as a group in AACS, should it impact the system in general.

Let me ask you this. Do you feel bad enough for content owners as to want to have programs that run from your BD discs to determine if you should be allowed to watch that movie or not?
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post #116 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schlotkins View Post

It seems at the end of the thread we're really getting to the point. AACS was **NOT** cracked. The software program was cracked. As someone mentioned, MS/Toshiba/Studios are verifying this right now I bet. If the software program was compromised, the license keys will be revoked and that's the end of that.

I really wish some of you would learn before speaking

They can only revoke a device key(s) from the chain. However, so long as the current key(s) being used to find the title keys works, those title keys can NOT be revoked and decryption of those titles will be absolute.
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post #117 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pabster View Post

I really wish some of you would learn before speaking

I think they are using the term differently than you are. When people think "crack" , they think DeCSS as in a program can decrypt content for all times. As you noted, decrypting one title does not mean said program can do so with other titles, and into the future.

So it is proper to say that AACS is not "cracked" as the public preception would be that it is permanent. One could say a title is cracked assuming that is what has happened (which we still don't know).
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post #118 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I think they are using the term differently than you are. When people think "crack" , they think DeCSS as in a program can decrypt content for all times. As you noted, decrypting one title does not mean said program can do so with other titles, and into the future.

So it is proper to say that AACS is not "cracked" as the public preception would be that it is permanent. One could say a title is cracked assuming that is what has happened (which we still don't know).

Thanks Amir - you were right, I was referring to future titles. People seem to be arguing that studios may stop releasing titles. My point was that if the device is cracked and not AACS, then that hole can be filled and future titles will be protected.

Chris
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post #119 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

I think they are using the term differently than you are. When people think "crack" , they think DeCSS as in a program can decrypt content for all times. As you noted, decrypting one title does not mean said program can do so with other titles, and into the future.

So it is proper to say that AACS is not "cracked" as the public preception would be that it is permanent. One could say a title is cracked assuming that is what has happened (which we still don't know).

Fair enough.

To be honest here, this is nothing but a cat and mouse game the studios will lose.

They can revoke keys but new ones will most certainly be found.

I'm not advocating piracy; I do believe in fair use, however, and this is a home run for the good guys.

And to be technically accurate, AACS was "cracked" before it began. The specs are wide open and freely available, which is why this "crack" was so easy to begin with.

Any protection scheme that can be rendered useless with the discovery of a single key (regardless of ability to revoke said key) is worthless. AACS is hardly an improvement to CSS.
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post #120 of 490 Old 12-28-2006, 07:52 AM
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This will only help the popularity of HDDVD.

What about all the talk of managed copies to harddrives (MediaCenter)?
If we could just copy our bought and payed for material to our HDD's who would care about a hack? I remember lots of HD-DVD presentation slides that promised us exactly what that guy is doing.
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