Blu-ray, HD-DVD & HD Broadcasts(H.264 & MPEG-2) Screenshots*BIG FILES* - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 2128 Old 02-04-2008, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

I think any scene with fast motion and a lot of action is a better stress test for bitrate comparisons. Or are you simply asking if the subtle differences in these screen shots will actually show up while watching the movie?

Brandon


We will get into that of course.
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post #1442 of 2128 Old 02-04-2008, 04:05 PM
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Ok i just want to say im new to all this and have looked at every page from 1-49 on this topic and i have to say from what iv seen the HD Picture is better than the Blu Ray !

The HD seems to be alot Smoother and the Blu ray seems to be more bitty and Graney ? Anyone else Agree with me ?
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post #1443 of 2128 Old 02-04-2008, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonsony735 View Post

The HD seems to be alot Smoother and the Blu ray seems to be more bitty and Graney ? Anyone else Agree with me ?

No.

Grain is part of the original film.

"Smoothing" over it is not being true to the original.

My opinions do not reflect the policies of my company
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post #1444 of 2128 Old 02-04-2008, 11:16 PM
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I think he was talking about the mpeg-2 vs vc-1 comparisons. Then yes, mpeg-2 is pretty noisy compared to the vc-1.
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post #1445 of 2128 Old 02-06-2008, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonsony735 View Post

Ok i just want to say im new to all this and have looked at every page from 1-49 on this topic and i have to say from what iv seen the HD Picture is better than the Blu Ray !

The HD seems to be alot Smoother and the Blu ray seems to be more bitty and Graney ? Anyone else Agree with me ?

Depends on the codecs not the format.
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post #1446 of 2128 Old 02-06-2008, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Depends on the codecs not the format.


Exactly.
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post #1447 of 2128 Old 02-08-2008, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Terminator 3

13.70 GB VC-1 ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................................13.00 GB VC-1
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post #1448 of 2128 Old 02-08-2008, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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post #1449 of 2128 Old 02-08-2008, 12:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm new here but what is wrong with the Blu-ray T3? 1080i? 1080p?
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post #1450 of 2128 Old 02-09-2008, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

They forgot to remove the pulldown flags from the HDDVD encode. So it is not encoded as true 1080p24 like most Blu-rays. This won't matter though on a software player so there is no reason to compare them. They are the exact same encode. Though the PiP encode actually has a slightly higher bitrate and is encoded as 1080p24.

How about hardware players? After reading the posts about this T3 BD it seems like they are seeing
discernable PQ difference on their 1080p sets (assuming its 1080p).

Or are they
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post #1451 of 2128 Old 02-14-2008, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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post #1452 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 02:59 AM - Thread Starter
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2 Disc Superbit DVD

BSHi - 1920 x 1080 Mpeg-2, 29.97 fps, 20.10 Mbps Average

SkyHD - 1920 x1080 h.264, 25.00 fps, 19.99 Mbps Average

HDNETM - E* 1440 x 1080 Mpeg-2, 29.97 fps, 6.32 Mbps Average*

*Will replace the HDNETM source as soon as I get the full 1920 x 1080 version. But for now concentrate on the color timings, EE and DNR. BTW the D* bitrate is about the same but much worse because of the lesser resolution 1280 x1080.


Watching this on either D* or E* is not going to be an enjoyable experience even if its advertised "HD". Artifacts and blocking in almost every shot. The only way to watch this right now is on a provider that transmit at full 1920 x1080 17 mbps like some cable companies and FIOS.
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post #1453 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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post #1454 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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post #1455 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 03:36 AM
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Not a huge leap over DVD but a noticeable difference. bs-hi has crazy colour timing and looks nooiiissyyy. Sky looks slightly better than HDNet (guy's hand, face/hairline - slight/minor difference on grey pot with brushes - I imagine the differences in bitrate become more apparent when there's more motion than that; for a static shot though there is surprisingly little difference).
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post #1456 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 06:04 AM
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Please don't let this be what ends up on the BRD. The transfer is at least as old as the SB edition. How long ago did that come out?
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post #1457 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 06:47 AM
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The Googles say late 2003.
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post #1458 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 08:50 AM
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That transfer of LOA is perhaps even older than 2003. The Superbit was the same master used for the initial DVD releases, with some re-grading done to the color under the supervision of Robert Harris. Having seen this film in 70mm, there's no way that the actual film is this soft. If it takes delaying the LOA BR-D until 2010 to get better results than this, I'm all for it.
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post #1459 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Goodman View Post

That transfer of LOA is perhaps even older than 2003. The Superbit was the same master used for the initial DVD releases, with some re-grading done to the color under the supervision of Robert Harris. Having seen this film in 70mm, there's no way that the actual film is this soft. If it takes delaying the LOA BR-D until 2010 to get better results than this, I'm all for it.

An ABR higher than 20 would probably help. . .

Unfortunately, Sony apparently thinks an ABR of 25 is enough for this title. . .
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post #1460 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 09:23 AM
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If there's such little difference between 1440 @ 6.3Mbit/s and 1920 @ 20Mbit/s with the current master, maybe they're right...

Anyway, it's all speculation until we see the final BD, which still doesn't have a firm date.
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post #1461 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Goodman View Post

Having seen this film in 70mm, there's no way that the actual film is this soft.

Not even close.
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post #1462 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 10:51 AM
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It's a little strange to see the screens looking so soft when the HD trailers for the film that Sony have been using while at shows is pin sharp. It's one of the films that they like to use to show off BD at the shows.

Even the couple of very brief clips used as BD trailers on some of their discs make these look laughable.
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post #1463 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Not even close.

Any reaction to my comment above, Rob?
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post #1464 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

Any reaction to my comment above, Rob?

Let me put it to you this way: I have already said that I hope that the higher bitrate of Blu-ray will help the BD version of Lawrence look a bit better than what we saw on the HDNet version.

That said, it doesn't mean that I necessarily think that bitrates higher than an average of 25 are absolutely necessary to give noticeably better results either. There are far too many examples of superb looking titles out there at that ABR to think differently. Bottom line: as long as the compressionist has the headroom that they think they need to get the best results, we should be good.

I think way may need to look elsewhere to find where the (potential) problem is re the softness.
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post #1465 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

Whats going on? Why is it so hard to get good PQ out of 70mm films?

We need a 4k scan?
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post #1466 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

Whats going on? Why is it so hard to get good PQ out of 70mm films?

And personally I believe 25Mbps average AVC is perfectly adequate. I think there is a very good reason that Sony encodes most of their movies in this range. And that is because this is considered the point of diminishing returns for AVC. Even high bitrate advocate RBFilms has said this.

I am really surprised that you of all people would be saying this.

Have you not watched discs with the bitrate meter on? Have you not seen a very substantial difference between the PQ you generally get with bitrates in the mid 30's compared to the PQ you get with bitrates in the mid 20's?

This line that bitrates in the mid 20's is the point of diminishing returns is to me just more of the "good enough" approach to HDM. It allows studios to stuff too much on a single disc and avoid the extra expense of using a second disc (which could ordinarily be a 25gb disc) for the extras.
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post #1467 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 02:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

I am really surprised that you of all people would be saying this.

Have you not watched discs with the bitrate meter on? Have you not seen a very substantial difference between the PQ you generally get with bitrates in the mid 30's compared to the PQ you get with bitrates in the mid 20's?

Bitrate meters don't show you the average, they show you the peak (or attempt to anyway). The average rate would never change across the movie....
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post #1468 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Bitrate meters don't show you the average, they show you the peak (or attempt to anyway). The average rate would never change across the movie....

I'm not sure, but don't most of them include the audio as well? For example, my Pioneer Elite HD1 meter can go as high as 48 mbps at times, and as far as I know, Blu-ray tops out around 40.
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post #1469 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Let me put it to you this way: I have already said that I hope that the higher bitrate of Blu-ray will help the BD version of Lawrence look a bit better than what we saw on the HDNet version.

That said, it doesn't mean that I necessarily think that bitrates higher than an average of 25 are absolutely necessary to give noticeably better results either. There are far too many examples of superb looking titles out there at that ABR to think differently. Bottom line: as long as the compressionist has the headroom that they think they need to get the best results, we should be good.

I think way may need to look elsewhere to find where the (potential) problem is re the softness.

Rob, could you tell me what are some of those superb looking titles at 25 ABR?

It won't be the compressionist who makes the decision as to how much headroom is available. I very much doubt that Paidgeek is himself currently working as a compressionist. I would repeat the comments I made to benes about whether you have not observed a general correlation (not a perfect one) between higher bitrates and higher PQ?

Isn't this just what the format war was all about?

I am not at all surprised that an ABR of 20 would produce a soft looking PQ, and I would be very surprised in fact if it didn't.

I can pretty much guarantee you that LoA, using whatever source material they used for these broadcasts, will look much better with an ABR of 35 than with one of either 20 or 25.
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post #1470 of 2128 Old 02-18-2008, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Bitrate meters don't show you the average, they show you the peak (or attempt to anyway). The average rate would never change across the movie....

They show you ( or attempt to) the CURRENT bitrate.
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