Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread III: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

We are checking into it...

That's better than a no
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post #302 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Danny_N View Post

Paidgeek,

Are there any classic movies (say pre 1980) coming soon from Sony? For instance Taxi Driver (which is getting a new release soon on SD but sadly no word on BD), Bridge On The River Kwai, Lawrence Of Arabia, Guns Of Navarone, Major Dundee, Das Boot would be titles that I would like to see.

I know lots of classic movie fans who would buy a HD player if the library of classic titles would be a bit bigger. Unfortunately the studios (with the exception of Warner) seem to think that only modern action movies will persuade people to buy into HD.

Thanks.
Danny

A number of classics will be released beginning late this year. I like them as well... Seeing them in HD is like seeing them for the first time...

Sony Pictures BD Insider
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post #303 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 09:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by diogen View Post

You meant PCI-E, right?

Yes, sorry, jetlag getting to me.

Quote:


Does this solution have anything in common with the announced Intel Santa Rosa:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-rosa-igp.html
both seem to rely on external hardware decoders, Intel solution just uses its own onboard video.

DIogen.

I should know more about this Intel solution than I do . But it does sound very similar.
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post #304 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 09:18 AM
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Paidgeek.

With Final Fantasy the Spirits Within releasing soon, do you have any idea when Final Fantasy Advent Children may also be released? Also Do you know (or have enough pull to get? ) if the special feature "The Last Order" may also be included?


Thank you so much!

-Jim
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post #305 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Leviathin25 View Post

Paidgeek.

With Final Fantasy the Spirits Within releasing soon, do you have any idea when Final Fantasy Advent Children may also be released? Also Do you know (or have enough pull to get? ) if the special feature "The Last Order" may also be included?


Thank you so much!

-Jim

The Dir Cut is coming on DVD this Autumn, so i guess will get it then.. maybe

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #306 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Yes, sorry, jetlag getting to me.


I should know more about this Intel solution than I do . But it does sound very similar.

I'll step on in this one. The Intel solution involves a PCIe x1 card (one manufacturer is Broadcom; there is at least one other in line) which does the H.264 heavy lifting so the processor doesn't get cratered trying to do it in software. (It will do VC-1/MPEG-2 as well, but those aren't as huge a load on the system.) The system's normal video subsystem (whether an integrated graphics or discrete solution) is used for the display, and for any post-processing (denoise, deinterlacing, etc.).

The Intel drivers that enable this for Vista Aero (15.4.50) will be public in weeks (I have a copy, but it's internal); non-Aero Vista and XP are coming in the next several months. I'm told that Cyberlink and Intervideo will be releasing software to OEMs to enable this "by summer". The cards should be about $40 in quantity, from what I gather, though I don't know how they'll be sold-- batched with a special copy of WinDVD or PowerDVD, or only to system integrators? I hope for the former; I will be very annoyed if Marketing is playing one if it's Viiv-esque "added value through our OEMs" games.

Don't know, as yet, whether the Cyberlink/Intervideo solution will be permitted to run on Intel graphics without the Broadcom/other card, pushing off all the decode onto the CPU, but if I had my druthers I'd offer that option. A decent Core 2 Duo can do most of what's out there in software, though some H.264 1080i deinterlacing can bring them to their knees without HW assist.

P.S.:
I've been avoiding requesting insider status because I don't generally have anything to offer. Should I apply?

I do not speak officially in any sense for
Intel Corp., Technology Manufacturing Group
but I do work there.
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post #307 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by archibael View Post

P.S.:
I've been avoiding requesting insider status because I don't generally have anything to offer. Should I apply?


Please do. This is a fantastic thread made better by the variety of insiders involved
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post #308 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 03:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pankwindu View Post

Ok, I have to try very hard to be polite here, as my frustration level is exceedingly high. I too am suffering from audio sync on The Matrix, using the 360 addon.

I am sorry about your frustration. My Sony CRT TV loses sync and drifts by up to a second also and I have to toggle its inputs to get it to sync again. So I have firsthand experience with what you are feeling.

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Can you please please PLEASE confirm whether this is a player problem or an authoring problem, or both? Here are some very prominent test scenes for your engineers to verify the issue

Thanks for providing the specifics. I asked the team to try to duplicate your experience and they simply cannot -- certainly nothing remotely close to level that aggravated you. Let me explain a bit more why this is a hairy problem to troubleshoot.

The system you use is really not designed to provide perfect A/V sync. Yes, you read that right. Neither format is designed for 100% sync! They are designed for acceptable level of sync, not a precise one. Here is the problem in a nutshell. You have a digital video system and digital audio system. Like any other digital system, you have to have a reference clock that determines when you should put out a sample (or one bit out of the sample in case of serial connections). Unfortunately, there is no prefect reference in life. Even crystal oscillators drift with time and temperature. And this happens both at creation side and decode! In professional settings, we slave one clock to the other and the entire plant is run that way to assure good sync. Obviously, we can't string wires from the studio to your house . So that solution is out.

How does one solve this problem then? First part is in the multiplexing tool where the video and audio streams are spliced together and later put on disc. The tool must figure out if an audio sample (or packet) is given to it does not match the timestamp of the video at the same time, what on earth it is supposed to do with it. Resample audio to slow or speed it up? Ignore the timing difference because the difference is small? Move some packets forward/back in time artificially? For these reasons, we call mux'ing the stream when it comes to A/V sync something of a black art. That is, there are situations where there is no palatable answer and as such, you have to figure out what to do that passes the A/V expectations of the user, even though it may not be correct from mathematical point of view.

Then we get into the player where the same problem manifests itself and then additional goop gets piled on top of it. Here again, we have the same two clocks running out of sync yet again (which may differ depending on which output you use on your player!). The player will attempt to align audio/video samples based on how fast they are being drained out of the buffer (i.e. clocked out of the machine). It is faced with the same tough choice of what to do as they drift apart. Note that any sync anomalies here are potentially additive wrt to how much was there in the encode chain.

Then we have video processors which feel completely justified in delaying video on a variable basis, depending on what they are being fed (i.e. they sometimes buffer video to process it, other times they do not). Their assumption is that some amount of delay here will not be noticed by you. Which is a fine assumption until during the same passage, you could already be at the hair edge of having sync be noticeable due to other reasons and then you have an ugly situation. Put another way, the processor may be perfectly fine by itself, but not when cascaded in a real system with other components which have their own variability.

Personally, I have seen sync issues in all of these formats. Sometimes the problem can be quite tricky. My Panasonic BD player for example, drifts in one chapter of a movie I have (I think it is Tears of the Sun) and goes off close to half a second. But if you skip back and then play again, it will reproduce sometimes! Imagine engineers trying to figure that one out, when they had no hand in making the equipment or the mux.

Quote:
And on a more philosophical note, to any insider in any relevant capacity, can we get the whole general issue of audio sync bumped up a few notches in priority wherever it needs to be?

I am with you on this. Unfortunately, we don't write a mux tool for these systems so our ability to influence that item is limited unless we get a clear test case. As people have noted, we fixed quite a few sync issues that were in our ability fix/compensate for. Unless there is clear test case for problems in our code, I am not sure there is more we can do. But I certainly will advocate working harder if that is what you are asking .

Quote:
Even if someone could just decide to make it a standard requirement in every player/processor to allow the user to add a configurable delay to either the audio and video as necessary, after all other processing in the decoding path, so that at least as a last resort the user could correct for the apparently inevitable continuing problems?

That would be easy to do in this day and age but does not address the real problem people have, namely, dynamic sync issues where the amount of delay changes. Certainly does not address my problem with the Sony TV or the Panasonic BD player I mentioned

BTW, the above topics are quite complex and I will not attempt to drill into them further. Last time I did, I lost a few people and folks got quite aggrevated .
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post #309 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 03:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by paxi View Post

Please do. This is a fantastic thread made better by the variety of insiders involved

Hey, then what does he do with his lost weekends and nights, chasing answers for people inside Intel? See that you now have Paid doing this, in addition to rest of us .
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post #310 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael View Post

...Intel solution involves a PCIe x1 card
...I'm told that Cyberlink and Intervideo will be releasing software to OEMs to enable this "by summer".

Does this card have any external connectors?
Or is it just a hardware accelerator that jumps in when playing certain video using certain players?

Diogen.
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post #311 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diogen View Post

Does this card have any external connectors?
Or is it just a hardware accelerator that jumps in when playing certain video using certain players?

Diogen.

Purely internal, just a specialized accelerator board, in keeping with our latest strategy of promoting PCIe as a co-processing path. In several form factors for desktop, notebook, and consumer electronics.

Photo here.

The top card is an HDMI ADD2 card, the one below is the Broadcom accel board.

Here's an article from Computex on the Broadcom specific solution.

I do not speak officially in any sense for
Intel Corp., Technology Manufacturing Group
but I do work there.
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post #312 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paxi View Post

Please do. This is a fantastic thread made better by the variety of insiders involved

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Hey, then what does he do with his lost weekends and nights, chasing answers for people inside Intel? See that you now have Paid doing this, in addition to rest of us .

Unfortunately (and the main reason I don't post here often) I'm not really an insider, per se, just an enthusiast who happens to have access to information left unsecured on our networks, or who the driver/marketing people sometimes throw a bone to. In this case, I whined loudly about the lack of a BD/HD DVD solution for Intel IGP and the post-processing gurus and marketing guys sent me OEM presentations.

I do not speak officially in any sense for
Intel Corp., Technology Manufacturing Group
but I do work there.
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post #313 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Thanks for providing the specifics. I asked the team to try to duplicate your experience and they simply cannot -- certainly nothing remotely close to level that aggravated you. Let me explain a bit more why this is a hairy problem to troubleshoot.

The system you use is really not designed to provide perfect A/V sync. Yes, you read that right. Neither format is designed for 100% sync! They are designed for acceptable level of sync, not a precise one.

Thank you for the response, Amir. I do appreciate the "black art" aspects and the idea that perfect mathematical sync may be unachievable. Given that, what does the industry consider an "acceptable" level of non-sync, that typical A/V users won't notice/complain? 1ms? 5ms? 20? 50?

Is it possible that your team did notice a small amount but dismissed it as acceptable? I mean, I'm not talking about a half-second or full-second like you mention in other scenarios (which would literally drive me insane). I have no way of measuring precisely but I'm sure the effect that I and several others (see the quoted linked thread in my original post) are experiencing is well under a tenth of a second (i.e. well below 100ms). My high degree of frustration was not meant to imply that it was off by a highly obvious amount that any average Joe would pick up on instantly. It's very subtle, just enough to trigger an "off" feeling in my brain (and ruin the experience), that's why I wonder if it is drifting very near what are considered "acceptable" thresholds.

Also it is 100% repeatable, and I have no problems with movies 2 and 3 in the set, so the "variable drift" aspects of your explanation don't seem to apply. If my overall system can play those two movies (and several others I own) correctly every time, but exhibit the exact same audio delay on The Matrix every time, doesn't that indicate a correctable problem and not just some random drift issues?
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post #314 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 09:49 PM
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@any insider ...

Could anyone clarify the PC playback copy protection rules on analog output? Specifically is there a difference between allowable analog outputs or resolutions on VGA/RGB vs component? I seem to remember certain standard computer outputs were grandfathered at some point. Does that apply to AACS, PC decoders, or hidef DVD's?

I was looking at new TV's today, some with VGA input and some not. I dislike HDMI and really would like to know if having VGA would make a difference.

- Tom

Why don't we power our electric cars from greener, cheaper Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors?

Tom Barry - Find my video filters at www.trbarry.com
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post #315 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankwindu View Post

Thank you for the response, Amir. I do appreciate the "black art" aspects and the idea that perfect mathematical sync may be unachievable. Given that, what does the industry consider an "acceptable" level of non-sync, that typical A/V users won't notice/complain? 1ms? 5ms? 20? 50?

1 frame of video is 30ms... lip sync starts to feel off after that amount, and looks way off after about 2 or 3 frames, and we slide sync for dialog and adr in 1/4 and 1/2 frame (8/15ms) increments all the time..

It tends to feel worse when the audio happens before the picture, and looks worse when the audio is late.

In the authoring part of the process, the sync should be dead on to the level of very few milliseconds, not frames.

When we sync reels on the stage, we slide them in samples (48000 samples per second) to keep sync
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post #316 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael View Post

Unfortunately (and the main reason I don't post here often) I'm not really an insider, per se, just an enthusiast who happens to have access to information left unsecured on our networks, or who the driver/marketing people sometimes throw a bone to. In this case, I whined loudly about the lack of a BD/HD DVD solution for Intel IGP and the post-processing gurus and marketing guys sent me OEM presentations.

Archi,

Can you throw us a bone about Intel's plans for discrete graphics cards? I for one would love to see a serious 3rd party player truly compete with AMD(ATI) and Nvidia in the add-in-graphics business. For many years I have run Intel-made motherboards with Intel chipsets and Intel processors, due to their rock-solid stability. This has been rewarding in the HTPC space, where things get hairy at every turn of an app or codec, and especially now that 720/1080 content is becoming more prevalent.
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post #317 of 3651 Old 06-09-2007, 11:12 PM
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I cannot comment on devices I may or may not be working on testing. I do find it likely that there will be a 3rd player in the discrete graphics market some time in the next couple of years.

I do not speak officially in any sense for
Intel Corp., Technology Manufacturing Group
but I do work there.
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post #318 of 3651 Old 06-10-2007, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pankwindu View Post

Also it is 100% repeatable, and I have no problems with movies 2 and 3 in the set, so the "variable drift" aspects of your explanation don't seem to apply. If my overall system can play those two movies (and several others I own) correctly every time, but exhibit the exact same audio delay on The Matrix every time, doesn't that indicate a correctable problem and not just some random drift issues?

I took a look at the first scene you listed, and while the crack noise did seem slightly off, the gunshots only a few seconds later were completely in sync, as far as I could tell. The fault could be in the master, the authoring, the mux, or the player, but I'd probably rule out the player, since the problem was reported on multiple players with vastly different AV pipelines. I checked my original Matrix DVD and also noticed a slight delay in the crack noise there too, so it might be my imagination
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post #319 of 3651 Old 06-10-2007, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

1 frame of video is 30ms... lip sync starts to feel off after that amount, and looks way off after about 2 or 3 frames, and we slide sync for dialog and adr in 1/4 and 1/2 frame (8/15ms) increments all the time..

It tends to feel worse when the audio happens before the picture, and looks worse when the audio is late.

In the authoring part of the process, the sync should be dead on to the level of very few milliseconds, not frames.

When we sync reels on the stage, we slide them in samples (48000 samples per second) to keep sync

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

I took a look at the first scene you listed, and while the crack noise did seem slightly off, the gunshots only a few seconds later were completely in sync, as far as I could tell. The fault could be in the master, the authoring, the mux, or the player, but I'd probably rule out the player, since the problem was reported on multiple players with vastly different AV pipelines. I checked my original Matrix DVD and also noticed a slight delay in the crack noise there too, so it might be my imagination

I have been told before that the Xbox 360 is now approximately 8-16 ms early with audio (after the May 2007 updates). Is that correct? FilmMixer's claim that 30+ ms is usually needed to notice sync issues seems to makes sense, cuz the 360 certainly seems in sync now with all movies I've tried. 8-16 ms would fall into that <30 ms threshold.

However, for the record, on my system the entire Matrix movie is off-sync, with the audio lagging behind the video slightly. This is consistent, and does not exist on either Reloaded or Revolutions. My HDTV is a CRT, with essentially no video lag.

Is it correct to think then that the audio for The Matrix could be as much as 2 frames late (assuming that the statement that the 360 is inherently early is correct)?

What hardware is used to ensure sync for movies professionally, during the authoring process?
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post #320 of 3651 Old 06-10-2007, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

A number of classics will be released beginning late this year. I like them as well... Seeing them in HD is like seeing them for the first time...

For some of us, "classic" movies refers to pre-1950. Are there any plans to bring out the great movies from the 30s and 40s?
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post #321 of 3651 Old 06-10-2007, 06:16 PM
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FilmMixer,

Any idea why the companies that make DVD Authoring programs, dumped timecode A/V sync for the high-def formats? (Not that it mattered with DTS since it never had it on DVD either.)

fitprod
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post #322 of 3651 Old 06-10-2007, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy View Post

What hardware is used to ensure sync for movies professionally, during the authoring process?

Your eyeball And timecode.

The picture master and audio master should have matching time code, and using that code as the master reference is usually good enough... however, other parts of the chain (i.e. mixing consoles or work station processing latency) can effect the absolute sync.

Since the audio and video are separate, they are sunk up in the workstation using timecode, and we then check the sync pop at the sample level to make sure it is in the exact right place.

It is called the sync pop (we call it the "2 pop" because it happens exactly 2 seconds before the first frame of picture/action in a given reel), a 1kHz tone that lasts exactly 1 film frame long (or 1.25 video frames).. if care isn't taken with sync pops, that will obviously has an effect down stream. There is also a "tail pop" which happens exactly 2 seconds from the last frame of picture of a given reel, and that lets us know if the reel is running on or off speed...

It doesn't help that encoded streams (lossy or lossless codecs) throw another level of complexity into the mix since they are no longer analogous to the audio, but streams of data...

I make sure we send it off in sync, and hope for the best

And when ever I can, I try and qc my films with check discs so we can catch these issues when they arise...

As a side story, I was the sound supervisor for the first "Mortal Kombat" film. I finally got a hold of the VHS tape when the film was released on video, and the audio was 1 frame out for reel 1, 2-3 frames out for reels 2-5, and 4 frames out for reel 6... AND THE LEFT RIGHT WERE SWAPPED!!!! There were 100's of thousands of tapes out there, and the sync looked awful on all of the punches not to mention the dialog and everything else.. When I called New Line on it, they told me they were sliding the sync around in telecine because dead sync didn't look right to them

The stereo swap was tracked down to a duplication rack (about 100 duping machines) being wired backward... 10's of thousands of tapes had the audio swapped, and it has been going on for over a year, on all the titles this facility was duping!!!

Not that I take any credit for it, but New Line now takes great care in their mastering and qc...
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post #323 of 3651 Old 06-10-2007, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrseder View Post

For some of us, "classic" movies refers to pre-1950. Are there any plans to bring out the great movies from the 30s and 40s?

I have not screened any masters from that far back. When there is enough of a market for them, I'm sure we will bring them out.

Sony Pictures BD Insider
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post #324 of 3651 Old 06-10-2007, 11:01 PM
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Hi Amir,

Just wondering if you could pass this list onto the Xbox team? Seems like a lot of good ideas such as the oft-mentioned 16:10 support as well additional features such as NAS streaming among others.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=162558

Cheers

(sorry tried to PM you but your Inbox is full)
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post #325 of 3651 Old 06-10-2007, 11:37 PM
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For everyone trying to set Audio delay on their receivers there is a new and powerful tool to work out the delay, Guitar Hero 2
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post #326 of 3651 Old 06-11-2007, 12:00 AM
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Hi Amir,

Some time ago I posted a request concerning the possibility of the inclusion of anamorphic stretch in a next firmware release of the Toshiba XE1/XA2 HD-DVD player. This was your answer.

But in view of this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kromkamp View Post

The Reon certainly has the capability to do anamorphic stretching. However, I cant make any claims as to whether or not any products that might use Reon (or any of our chips) will implement a feature like this.

Thanks,

Andy K.
ASIC Design Engineer
Silicon Optix, Inc.

things seem to be a "little bit" simpler? No? Would it be possible to reforward that to Toshiba?

As I have already stated, in my opinion the XE1 (XA2) is a very good product, but very curiously the BD camp with the 1.8 (24p) firmware release on the PS3, has taken the technological lead (... for the moment?).

So besides the 24p planned firmware update for the XE1 which is due for Sep' as far as I know, would it be possible to also include this anamorphic strech capability, as this would clearly position the Toshiba XE1 (XA2) as a real HT product versus a "toy"?

Many thks,

Hugo
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post #327 of 3651 Old 06-11-2007, 12:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seagoon View Post

Hi Amir,

Just wondering if you could pass this list onto the Xbox team? Seems like a lot of good ideas such as the oft-mentioned 16:10 support as well additional features such as NAS streaming among others.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=162558

Cheers

(sorry tried to PM you but your Inbox is full)

Thanks. Seems like a nice list. I passed to the Xbox team just now with a word of encouragement .
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post #328 of 3651 Old 06-11-2007, 12:12 AM
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This isn't an important question, but I'm wondering what HD DVD insiders think the "HD" in HD DVD stands for. Kjack mentioned that it stands for "High Density" and that makes sense to me given that they really are higher density DVDs and can contain HD or SD. But the www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com site claims that HD DVD stands for "High-Definition Digital Versatile Disc". Has it been defined as anything officially?

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #329 of 3651 Old 06-11-2007, 12:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post

Hi Amir,

Some time ago I posted a request concerning the possibility of the inclusion of anamorphic stretch in a next firmware release of the Toshiba XE1/XA2 HD-DVD player. This was your answer.

But in view of this post:



things seem to be a "little bit" simpler? No? Would it be possible to reforward that to Toshiba?

I will forward but I am always concerned about little used features in hardware products .

Quote:


So besides the 24p planned firmware update for the XE1 which is due for Sep' as far as I know, would it be possible to also include this anamorphic strech capability, as this would clearly position the Toshiba XE1 (XA2) as a real HT product versus a "toy"?

Many thks,

Hugo

I hope so but I obviously do not work for Toshiba so can't make any claims one way or the other. But in my experience, showing clear data and direction helps a lot with Japanese companies. So thanks for passing on the data.
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post #330 of 3651 Old 06-11-2007, 03:34 AM
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Amir,

Does the Xbox 360 Elite's HANA scaling chip use the same bilinear scaling algorhythm as the old ANA chip in the original console?

By the way, I just thought I'd say that I really like the Elite. Its ability to interface with any DVI monitor and offer the same resolution options as VGA is excellent. I applaud Microsoft's philosophy of bringing HD gaming to seemingly every conceivable device capable of rendering an HD image.
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