Industry Insiders Master Q&A thread III: ONLY Questions to Insiders - Page 86 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2551 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Hmm, I wonder how much of that $150M Paramount kitty is left after sweetening Bay's contract for Transformers 2 to make his true feelings "go away"?

Well, while we're taking the absolute lowest road...what were the Disney and Fox "kitties?"

*************************************************

Still looking for a movie theatre that shows movies the way they're SUPPOSED to be viewed...



...with a bitrate meter and screencaps.
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post #2552 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

You answered my question several months ago as to why Sony was truncating the studio master audio tracks to 16 bits. You said that with several languages on the soundtrack, that lack of disc space was an issue. Is is still an issue with lossless compression and BD50 discs?
Or is it because certain players are unable to decode the lossless formats? Please clarify as we consumers want all studios to release at the 24 bit industry standard. The esteemed Bob Meridian did a study and determined that 20+ bits was necessary.

Beginning with newer titles and whenever possible, SPE will provide the original 24bit soundtrack with lossless encoding. If space or bandwidth contraints require it, we may encode at 20 bit, or in some instances 16 bit. This will be handled case by case based on a number of factors.

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post #2553 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Hmm, I wonder how much of that $150M Paramount kitty is left after sweetening Bay's contract for Transformers 2 to make his true feelings "go away"?

Prolly all of it. If you read Bay's post, they showed him 300, which probably means they showed him all the cool features on the HD DVD that the BD is completely lacking.
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Given Amir's claims that they had to wring every last bit of performance out of the Xbox 360 to support HD DVD, the answer would be "no". If you've wrung every last bit of performance how do you support the additional 18Mb/sec of A/V data Blu-ray titles may well require? I suppose you'd have some leftover CPU cycles after giving back some of the CPU required to support HDi relative to BD-J, but it seems unlikely the same cycles used to support HDi can be used to support A/V decode.

heh, considering HDi is about 10% of one thread of one core, I'm not sure BD-J could do any better. However, we have optimised our AVC decoder significantly since we originally released, so we could possibly free up enough cycles, there's a lot more we could optimize if we had to. (Luckily we don't)
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post #2554 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rto View Post

paidgeek, can you provide a link, or supply any information which would lead us to a body of empirical data relating to current psycho-acoustical models and how they compare to uncompressed PCM as to any audibly perceptible differences?

The first paper can be readily downloaded and gives a thorough description of perceptual coding systems.

The second paper can be purchased from the AES and discusses the subjective listening tests of MPEG and AC3 codecs.


http://www.eas.asu.edu/~spanias/pape...spanias-00.pdf



Subjective Listening Test of Multichannel Audio Codecs
In 1988, subjective listening tests of popular multichannel audio codecs in the 5.1-channel format were carried out. The systems under test were real time implementations of Dolby AC-3 and MPEG-2 Layer II. The tests were conducted according to recommendations of ITU-R and EBU. A description of test methodology and test design will be given. The results will be presented and discussed.
Preprint Number: 4813 Convention: 105 (August 1998)
Authors: Wüstenhagen, Ulf; Feiten, Bernhard; Hoeg, Wolfgang
E-library Location: (CD aes14) /pp9798/pp9809/4703.pdf

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post #2555 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paidgeek View Post

Beginning with newer titles and whenever possible, SPE will provide the original 24bit soundtrack with lossless encoding. If space or bandwidth contraints require it, we may encode at 20 bit, or in some instances 16 bit. This will be handled case by case based on a number of factors.

Paidgeek - is the Spider-man 1 master 16 bit and the Spider-man 2 and Spider-man 3 masters 24-bit?
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post #2556 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PacificDisc View Post

I've not heard of anyone else being able to produce BD50s, outside of SONY and don't expect that to change any time soon - again with the caveat that this could change at any moment.

Obviously if something happens in this area, I'll let everyone know here.

Thanks

Sean,
Have you confirmed with Matsu****a that they are not able to produce BD50 discs?
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post #2557 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 06:59 PM
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paidgeek,

I was hoping you could answer this one for me. Talk wasn't sure of the answer.

If I author my own title using a BD-RE 3.0 (or BD-R 2.0) disc and use BDMV, can I make multiple copies from the master disc? Or do I need to re-author the title multiple times? Is the AACS protection optional on these discs?
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post #2558 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Hmm, I wonder how much of that $150M Paramount kitty is left after sweetening Bay's contract for Transformers 2 to make his true feelings "go away"?

...as above, the "worst news" part was the re-helming of the film, not the switch of the colour of pill he swallowed. I wouldn't want you to think I was in any way caring what Michael Bay thinks about HDM...

I did have some other questions above regarding adding HD DVD playback to a BD player that was touched on, do you have anything to contribute further to the responses Amir gave regarding combo players?

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post #2559 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 07:59 PM
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amir or another insider:

Whats the current Status of the Triple layer 45 GB and Dual Layer 34 GB discs? Considering we already have hybrid discs with ~35 GB in capacity split over three layers, can the large HD discs be far behind?

As i understand about the Freedom, the released hybrid disc, you can only access "one format at a time" (either DVD or HD DVD) and you need to stop and restart the disc to access the other format. Is that a limitation of the technology? Could Toshiba work it so all 35 GB can be used as an HD DVD disc?

Thanks
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post #2560 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Alan's quote that "A 45GB disc is under development."" also suggests that he's pretty out of touch of the specifics of the technologies, given that the 45GB fantasy was replaced by the 51GB fantasy many months ago.

Hard to imagine that you would know more about these processes than him. So you get a sense of it, TL-45 and TL-51 are one in the same from manufacturing point of view. Both involve and HD DVD with three layers. The only difference is that TL-51 tightens the pitch to boost capacity to 17 gigabytes per layer (instead of 15) to have bragging rights over BD-50. Otherwise, the two are identical. Think of TL-45 as de-tuned version of TL-51 and you get the picture.

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My guess is he had very little involvement with the decision but rather was briefed after the whole affair was done and trotted out to attempt to justify it.

Bad guess, bad conclusion . Read his Bio. Pay attention to part where he says he worked for Warner. And ask Paid and others what he did. They will tell you that he was the DVD Forum representative for as long as anyone remembers. If he didn't weigh in on them adopting HD DVD completely, might as well claim that Kutaragi-san had nothing to do with PS3 design either.
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post #2561 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venk View Post

amir or another insider:

Whats the current Status of the Triple layer 45 GB and Dual Layer 34 GB discs? Considering we already have hybrid discs with ~35 GB in capacity split over three layers, can the large HD discs be far behind?

Still going through standardization. Nothing new to report after the project was officially sanctioned.
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post #2562 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:12 PM
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Amir, two questions>>

a)why nobody ever developed a DVD with three layers? was that impossible or just not worth the effort?

b)Is it possible to put a CD layer on a DVD? Is it how SACD works?
By the way I always wondered; is SACD delivered on DVD? if so, how come sony chose to use a format not developed by them from scratch? They don't seem to like formats not created by them ( or co-created)?

And I want to thank you for answering questions very patiently; your presence and knowledge is highly appreciated.

A Home Theater Enthusiast!
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post #2563 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MikeDV View Post

This is for any Blu-Ray insiders.

I've asked Amir twice to elaborate on the following statement yet have not received a reply.

"Sorry boss. Was taking a bathroom break."

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Are you saying that Microsoft as the patent holder is assuming these production costs?

Not at all. While we have some patents in these formats, I am talking about the big guys who have the potential to earn back substantial revenues. We do not fall in that category because as you can imagine, we have more patents on software/systems than how you make optical media .

In general, the heavy hitters are Toshiba, Matsu****a, Philips, Sony. The next ier is probably Samsung/LG.

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If so, are you assuming these costs for Paramount? Universal? Warner?

No, and no. Our main contribution to the format is the production of HD DVD drive for 360, providing HDi subsystem, and answering your questions .

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In all fairness to Amir, before I make the assumption that a lack of reply is a "yes", are the up front production costs for any of the Blu-Ray studios being covered by any of the BD patent holders or authoring houses?

Thanks,

Mike

Lack of reply didn't mean anything here. While questions of IP are typically rather sensitive (see how no other insider will touch them like I have), I had no problem answering your question as stated. It is just that I missed it before we went down for day's break from AVS (buying a house and had to have it inspected).
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post #2564 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:36 PM
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Amir, is the new house painted blue or red? Did you have to downsize the proposed extension after (personally) forking out the $150mil that you're shamelessly accused of spending on something as silly as one of the most prestigious studios in history?

Cummon, you can tell us....


Make sure you pack your BBQ/smoker monitor, that should not fall into enemy hands....

Best of luck with the new place, I hope you're getting highspeed internet.

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post #2565 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UxiSXRD View Post

Isn't lossless audio a feature of both high def formats that can help it excel over more mundane legacy audio found on DVD?

People pay $15K for a DVD player which outputs those mundane audio tracks . 1.5 Mbit/sec DD+ represents a data rate which is a whopping 4X higher than what is used in DVD. That in itself, provides a tremendous boost in fidelity.

Really, we have been over this many times. My position is one in the same. I don't have a camera inside the engine of my car to see how the variable timing valves are operating. I push the gas pedal and if the car accelerates the way I like, I am happy. So I ask people to watch a movie with 1.5 mbit/sec DD+ and tell me that its soundtrack doesn't wonderfully compliment the movie.

Quote:


Isn't lossless audio, either uncompressed PCM or compressed with codecs like Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio (if there's ever a player that can decode it), identical to the studio master as long as it's at the original bit depth? Thus, shouldn't the onus of proof be on proponents of lossy audio codecs and/or lower bit-depth audio to conduct their own tests to prove that they're not causing any noticible perceptual differences in their own studies, instead?

Well they have. And those are the results I am trying to convey to you. That it is exceptionally difficult to detect any fidelity loss when only mild levels of compression are involved. We have done tests at 760kbps in stereo at 24-bit/96Khz and people could not tell them apart reliably from the PCM original. This was a large population study, conducted with people using headphones and listening super carefully to music, not movies. 5.1 Movies at 1.5mbit/sec would represent similar compression ratio. And here, you are not using headphones and as such, are severely handicapped compared to our testers. In addition, masking effect says that surround music is more forgiving of compression artifacts than stereo.

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Is this the reason Microsoft felt it was good enough to have hardware good enough for just 2CH PCM via HDMI instead of 8CH for the Elite?

Please don't take shots like this. I voted to make TrueHD mandatory in HD DVD at the time when we thought it would cost us dearly in royalty costs. BDA on the other hand, didn't want to incur any royalty costs so shunned all lossless codecs and advanced lossy which would let them have DD at higher rates than 640kbps. So our track record of caring about audio fidelity is way, way ahead of anything BDA has done.

Xbox 360 is a gaming machine. We know what our audience wants and needs. And they are absolutely happy with the fidelity they are getting. So we are not going to and add features which they will not appreciate. Besides, we have no intention of putting companies who make standalone products out of business. We would be more than happy if people who want lossless audio output to go and buy the Toshiba player. The key here is that we got the platform capabilities right by mandating the latest and greatest in both lossy and lossless compression. The other guys didn't so they have to lug around PCM or low rate lossy just to make sure people here something different than sound of crickets if the only thing there is TrueHD (24-bit or 60-bits ).
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post #2566 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by degas View Post

Amir:
As a HDM customer I want uncompressed picture and sound.
Picture I can't have, because of the limitations of today.
Sound I can have, and you tell me that it's unecessary?

Do you want "uncompressed" sound or sound that is identical to your ears if you were hearing it in the mixing studio?

Quote:


Is this the position of Microsoft or HD DVD overall...or just yours?

You are hearing this old crusty audiophile who has spent a decade helping design lossy and lossless audio codecs. I also have an incredibly talented team that works for me in this field who has invented multiple audio codecs (lossy and lossless). That "J Johnston" in the paper that Paid gave you the link to, is an AT&T Fellow who is an audio architect in my team and posts in the HTPC forum from time to time. So this stuff is not theory and buzzwords for us.

I am a pragamatic guy and you can never get me to spit markeing buzzwords because they sound good. We are here to get past these terms and learn where there is real value (contrast ratio in a display) versus not (dynamic contrast ratio in a display).
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post #2567 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

No, I'm saying that in my opinion I don't think Fox would "turn the spigot back on" without some additional protection beyond what AACS offers.

So in your opinion, if that extra security gets busted wide open a couple of months later, would Fox continue to publish content or go back to radio silence?
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post #2568 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

So in your opinion, if that extra security gets busted wide open a couple of months later, would Fox continue to publish content or go back to radio silence?

Is it Microsoft's intention to try and break that security? Your post sounds threatening.
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post #2569 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:53 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

No, silly, you need a PC with some flavor of Windows supporting the Windows DRM which the extra content will undoubtedly be encoded with!

You know, your employer was a pioneer in file sharing technology in the form of NFS. I had the pleasure of working with your engineers at the time, co-implementing NFS on our falvor of Unix in mid 1980s. So for a guy working for the same company not realizing that with mandatory networking in every HD DVD player, I can download the bits to any NAS or PC share on your home network just amazes me.


Quote:


Which should give you some additional background as to why the HD DVD model suits Microsoft's business interests much better.

I make no bones about the fact that we love home networks and the Internet. The allow me to type this text on my laptop while watching TV. So using the same technology to enrich people's lives with more languages for their native langauge, makes me feel great. What I don't understand is why BDA folks are against such technologies. Might it be that it eliminates the need for BD-50? It just might....
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post #2570 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 08:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Winn View Post

Is it Microsoft's intention to try and break that security? Your post sounds threatening.

Oh, there are people 10X smarter than us in breaking a copy protection system. Trust me, they don't need our help one bit. We are often tempted to go and hire these people, they are that good.

My posts sends a different signal. It says that we understand the bounds of PC copy protection systems exceptionally well, having had to defend ours for 8 years now. Indeed, we are unique in having such deep understanding of what you can defend against, and what you can't. And what an incredible effort it takes to have a DRM system that stays more robust, than breached. All of this tells us that BD+ has little chance of fulfilling its dreams in practice. Anyone who bets against the above hackers, better not gamble in Vegas .
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post #2571 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

Amir, if this reflects your understanding of the complexity of product development than I'm no longer confounded by how some Microsoft products (Bob? Zune? Vista?) made it out the door.

Ah yes. I am glad I am typing this post on a computer powered by a Sun Sparc CPU. And whatever happend to Solaris? Did Linux wipe it out completely? You see, I can dish out a fair bit of this stuff back at you so let's put aside snide remarks and provide relevant information.

Keep in mind that I manage a group whose entire job is to develop the HD DVD side of a dual format player. Your company is absence as best I can tell from development of BD-J. Why I don't know. What I do know is it is the BDA's standard talking point to put down dual format players. Everytime Pioneer says it is a bad idea, I crack up, seeing how they used to boast dual format audio players.
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post #2572 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 2Channel View Post

paidgeek,

I was hoping you could answer this one for me. Talk wasn't sure of the answer.

If I author my own title using a BD-RE 3.0 (or BD-R 2.0) disc and use BDMV, can I make multiple copies from the master disc? Or do I need to re-author the title multiple times? Is the AACS protection optional on these discs?

I am almost certain you can because you will have no copy control bits set to on. That said, the engineer in me likes to run tests before committing.

Sony Pictures BD Insider
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post #2573 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

Amir, is the new house painted blue or red?

It is actually pretty close shade of red . Sadly, the inspector says the roof is gone so we now need to haggle with the seller over a new roof.

Quote:


Did you have to downsize the proposed extension after (personally) forking out the $150mil that you're shamelessly accused of spending on something as silly as one of the most prestigious studios in history?

Tell me about. I forked over the downpayment to those guys. They promise me a bunch of free movies. But that don't put a roof over my head...

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Make sure you pack your BBQ/smoker monitor, that should not fall into enemy hands....

Best of luck with the new place, I hope you're getting highspeed internet.

Have second smoker ordered for the new house already . We sold our old vacation house for this one. They tell me comcast will run the last mile to the house. Let's hope they do or I get stuck with my Verizon EVDO network....
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post #2574 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:17 PM
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Amirm,

Just curious what kind of laptop config? Been a long time since I participated back during the original days of the eXPertZone Kinda out of the loop since then.
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post #2575 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by efxmaster View Post

Amirm,

Just curious what kind of laptop config? Been a long time since I participated back during the original days of the eXPertZone Kinda out of the loop since then.

My laptop took forever to find. It is a Fujitsu S7110. It is a rare breed with an LCD which has great color balance (99% of the displays are way too blue these days making them horrible for imaging/video testing). It is light and with anti-glare screen. Damn the people who made glossy LCDs standard in consumer laptops. Don't want to see my own face while typing something! It has has a 4:3 display which I like better...
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post #2576 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:25 PM
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Amir,

You were gonna write a classic long post about Microsoft's stake in HD DVD last night. Just a reminder for the "crusty old audiophile."

Thanks,
Robert.
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post #2577 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Xbox 360 is a gaming machine. We know what our audience wants and needs. And they are absolutely happy with the fidelity they are getting. So we are not going to and add features which they will not appreciate.

Amir come on, really?
You don't actually believe that!

Just take a look at 360 related threads on this forum and even the Xbox 360 forum, everyone wanted TrueHD 5.1 transport, the reason I got an XA2 was because the Elite didn't offer it.

Audio is subjective, you can argue scientific facts, present all the blind test data you want, but in the end, lossless audio is a feature people want on software and hardware, and there's not much else to it.

Call it a check box feature if you will, just answer this, will the next iteration of the 360 support decode and transport of 5.1 TrueHD?

The 360 is not just a gaming machine, it's media hub, so can we get the additional features to make it the best? (Lossless audio transport, support for DRM WMV-HD titles, support for open source audio/video codecs--or at least a way to convert on the fly, better real-time streaming and transcoding)

And thanks for supporting TrueHD 5.1 on the DVD Forum, now can you do the same for the entire chain for the 360 (decode and transport)?
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post #2578 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post

Amir,

You were gonna write a classic long post about Microsoft's stake in HD DVD last night. Just a reminder for the "crusty old audiophile."

Thanks,
Robert.

Yeh, I know. I owe you that. But am pretty worn out after all the driving and hours of crawlign around the house . I will promise something in the next couple of days.....
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post #2579 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bkilian View Post

If you read Bay's post, they showed him 300, which probably means they showed him all the cool features on the HD DVD that the BD is completely lacking.

I wonder if they showed him the Blades of Glory features on the Blu-ray Disc which the HD DVD disc didn't have room for...
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However, we have optimised our AVC decoder significantly since we originally released, so we could possibly free up enough cycles, there's a lot more we could optimize if we had to.

Good to know that's one less hurdle to a BD add-on for the Xbox 360!

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post #2580 of 3651 Old 08-22-2007, 09:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by John Haghighi View Post

Amir come on, really?
You don't actually believe that!

Just take a look at 360 related threads on this forum and even the Xbox 360 forum, everyone wanted TrueHD 5.1 transport, the reason I got an XA2 was because the Elite didn't offer it.

You have to look at the entire population of 360, not those people interested in HD DVD playback. That is what drives development of Xbox. So it is clear, I am not defending our choice there. If it were up to me, I would have put PCM output. But then again, people like me put a BD player in PS3 and see what happened there .

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Audio is subjective, you can argue scientific facts, present all the blind test data you want, but in the end, lossless audio is a feature people want on software and hardware, and there's not much else to it.

And we have it there. On every box and many titles. But I am not going to forcefeed the world with it like folks did with PCM and MPEG-2 on BD-25!

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Call it a check box feature if you will, just answer this, will the next iteration of the 360 support decode and transport of 5.1 TrueHD?

I buy the checkbox thing. And no, can't comment on future 360s...

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The 360 is not just a gaming machine, it's media hub, so can we get the additional features to make it the best? (Lossless audio transport, support for DRM WMV-HD titles, support for open source audio/video codecs--or at least a way to convert on the fly, better real-time streaming and transcoding)

The core of 360 is about gaming. We have learned to not forget that, seeing what Wii is doing, and what PS3 isn't.

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And thanks for supporting TrueHD 5.1 on the DVD Forum, now can you do the same for the entire chain for the 360 (decode and transport)?

I am the biggest pain on the side of the Xbox team when it comes to A/V features. Trust me on that!
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