Japanese DVD Forum Conference 10/4/07 - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 192 Old 10-04-2007, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wnorris View Post

Well, this is just my translation. I wouldn't call them facts, as I'm not an expert translator or anything. However, my translation is vastly different from KL's interpretation of a bad machine translation.

Thanks for calling me FUD-meister!
Could you translate texts on these slides to make your point better supported?




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post #122 of 192 Old 10-04-2007, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by wnorris View Post

This is really sad. You are trying to spread FUD and you don't even know what you are talking about. Why don't you just make stuff up the next time to make it easier on yourself.

Yes, this article and presentation does say that HD DVD has better region coding technology than DVD, despite it not being used yet. That's about all you guess right.

What this is saying is that Twin discs are supposed to be able to play in both HD DVD players and standard DVD players, despite all the layers being on one side of the disc. So pop any twin disc into almost any player in the world, and it should play.

What is being questioned is can you use a mix of DVD Region Coding and HD DVD region coding, or otherwise, is it possible to have one Region Code (AACS based) for the HD content, and a seperate region code (CSS based) for the DVD content? This is being investigated.

I personally say make everything region free and lets all live in one world.

The next part, which you so ineptly try to spin as "There you have it, the 2 HD DVD layers in a HD DVD TL Twin disc is not compatible with current HD DVD players while the DVD layer is readable." is entirely wrong. Do you even know what the BCA is. Here is a nickle crash course:

"According to the physical DVD specification, a Burst Cutting Area (BCA) is a feature that provides support for a bar code to be written inside of the lead-in area of replicated DVDs. This allows for discs to be given unique codes, which can come in handy as a form of copy protection in circumstances. This feature is rarely used and support for reading BCA is not mandatory."

The BCA was used by DIVX to ID individual discs. What is being questioned is if a BCA can be included on a HD DVD. Basically they can, but it appears that you can't have a seperate BCA for the HD and SD layers. The second BCA is unreadable (not clear if it is unreadable by current DVD, current HD, or both). Big whop and a far cry from what you claim.

As for spherical aberration, it simply means:

"A perfect lens focuses all incoming rays to a point on the optic axis. A real lens with spherical surfaces suffers from spherical aberration: it focuses rays more tightly if they enter it far from the optic axis than if they enter closer to the axis. It therefore does not produce a perfect focal point."

Spherical aberration revision simply means they must correct the focus of the lens to minimize/eliminate abberration. To read three layers, they need to have a drive that can refocus. Or if it can't refocus, they need a drive that can perform correction on the data stream to compensate. This kind of compensation can be achieved through PRML and ETM. In HD DVD whitepapers going back to 2004, Toshiba stated the need for their drives to be PRML drives for HD DVD. To the best of my knowledge, every Toshiba since the A1 has had a PRML equipped drive installed (don't know about the 360 add on), meaning all generations of technology already have this drive. I think the questions being raised are, will DVD drives need PRML to read the SD layer? How many DVD drives already have the technology? PRML DVD drives have been around since 2004, but how many make it into DVD players? What about the cheapo $29 DVD player? Did they skimp on PRML?

KL, I nominate you for the most FUD tastic post I think I've ever seen on AVS. You took something in a language you don't even understand, ran it through a translater that is known to give garbled up translations, and then spun the grabled translation to basically say it is a presentation by the DVD forum on why triple layer discs are a total failure.

Bravo FUD-meister!


He should get a cookie...
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post #123 of 192 Old 10-04-2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamwisetheBrave View Post

He should get a cookie...

+1
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post #124 of 192 Old 10-04-2007, 03:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians View Post

AH0-22 has been "studying" RPC on HD DVD since it was approved as an Ad Hoc group at SC34 back in May 2006 in an effort to appease some fence sitters.

Study, study, study!

EDIT: Technically, it was being studied prior to May 2006...I think it started formally in February 2006, based on discussions from late 2005.

And we are going to keep studying it. We are pretty slow learners sometimes .
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post #125 of 192 Old 10-04-2007, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

Quote "In drive spherical aberration revision becomes necessary"

That's sort of what I was thinking . Revising the Spherical aberration isn't easy either!

-Brian

enlighten us
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post #126 of 192 Old 10-04-2007, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnorris View Post

I think the questions being raised are, will DVD drives need PRML to read the SD layer? How many DVD drives already have the technology? PRML DVD drives have been around since 2004, but how many make it into DVD players? What about the cheapo $29 DVD player? Did they skimp on PRML?

No, since the DVD layer is the closest, it would not complicate the DVD pickup.

However, for the HD DVD layers, PRML is required, and is present in all HD DVD drives out there, including the A1, from what I know. Firmware updates to the drive could in principle update the PRML code and tables.
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post #127 of 192 Old 10-04-2007, 03:44 PM
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compscott,

I was kidding. Sorry about the confusion.

-Brian
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post #128 of 192 Old 10-04-2007, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

compscott,

I was kidding. Sorry about the confusion.

-Brian

I found that out after I posted by reading the full thread, sorry
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post #129 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Leviathin25 View Post

HD DVD Defense Force Gather!!

I dont see this going well...

ROFL. Between this and HD DVD playback levels (profiles?), this is starting to sound like BD.
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post #130 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 12:49 PM
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Enough with the "profiles" for HD DVD.

There's HD DVD level 1 or w/e you want to call it which has ALL DISC FEATURES, then there's level 2 which has things like 1080p24 native output, more storage space, analog multichannel etc.. these are just player-level enhancements. There is no situation where a disc works fully with one player but not another, unlike BD.
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post #131 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilka View Post

ROFL. Between this and HD DVD playback levels (profiles?), this is starting to sound like BD.

I thought that too.
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post #132 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 01:20 PM
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Except I find it funny the ones who as usual in a thread like this are doing all the talking are the Blu-ray fanboys. In fact, it was started by one.

Now, onto some of the actual points made:

1) Regional coding sucks. But guess what? For some studios, that's their choice. And if that and/or copy protection are stopping them from producing HD DVD's, then why continue to stop them? I say there is NOTHING wrong with OPTIONAL region coding/protection. Not everyone has to use it, and it appears it would only be used in special cases anyway like New Line new releases, or the everr-sought-after Disney movies. Let the studios decide how they put out their movies, then you decide to support them or not based on whether they include the features you want or not. Why section studios out because they want region coding and you don't?


2) I haven't seen anything in the slides yet that says TL Twin can't be done with existing players. I'm just seeing a bunch of slides showing that these new technologies are coming. Don't you think it wouldn't be such a big deal to show all this if they didn't at least have an implementation plan in mind? Or does the DVD forum just always throw.....er.......slides.........up against the wall to see what sticks? I'm all for waiting until the NA Conference to see what they say before jumping to conclusions. If someone in English tells us TL Twin is incompatible with current drives, then ok. Until then, this is all speculation.
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post #133 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 01:41 PM
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The point by not use region codes makes disc purchase much easier. That so nice with HD DVD. Just buy anything you want that has a red case.

And I think people should try and read what amir just wrote...
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post #134 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

2) I haven't seen anything in the slides yet that says TL Twin can't be done with existing players. I'm just seeing a bunch of slides showing that these new technologies are coming. Don't you think it wouldn't be such a big deal to show all this if they didn't at least have an implementation plan in mind? Or does the DVD forum just always throw.....er.......slides.........up against the wall to see what sticks? I'm all for waiting until the NA Conference to see what they say before jumping to conclusions. If someone in English tells us TL Twin is incompatible with current drives, then ok. Until then, this is all speculation.

Actually my assumption on the compatibility with existing HD DVD players throughout all the discussions about TL51 on this forum has been that they won't be able to read the third layer, only the first and second layers will be readable.
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post11565881

wnorris seems not to be able to translate the slides, but what he wrote already tells us BCA in the third layer is not readable, and you know why. This is enough for me
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post #135 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by K.L. View Post

Actually my assumption on the compatibility with existing HD DVD players throughout all the discussions about TL51 on this forum has been that they won't be able to read the third layer, only the first and second layers will be readable.
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post11565881

Except nowhere was I talking about TL51. I believe I said TL Twin. 1st layer would be DVD, readable by the red laser.
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post #136 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

Except nowhere was I talking about TL51. I believe I said TL Twin. 1st layer would be DVD, readable by the red laser.

What about the third layer in TL Twin, and the fact that most HD DVD movie releases those days require DL?
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post #137 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 07:58 PM
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I think 15/5 has been readable for a while now, except noone wants to release either hd or sd in those sized-disks.

The 5/30 (more likely) or 9/15 (unlikely) seem to be possible options, but what you really want is 9/30 (ie : 4 layers, 2 red, 2 blue) to handle the DVD and hdm requirements.
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post #138 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 08:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L. View Post

What about the third layer in TL Twin, and the fact that most HD DVD movie releases those days require DL?


Here are the two companies involved in the TL51 and the TL Twin:

1. Toshiba
2. Memory Tech

Can you please link an article by either that says the 3rd layer cannot be read by existing HD DVD players.
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post #139 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 08:59 PM
 
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Wait, wait, wait, but in scanning through these pages it seems like that we're looking at a new revision of the HD DVD format? Since somehow the equipment will not be compatible with the new TL51 spec? Now, are you all certain they are not talking about the versions of firmware? I see 1.9 and 2.0 thrown around a lot without much certainty of what they mean.

Maybe the 2.0 firmware update will enable TL51 discs to be read.
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post #140 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Neo1965 View Post

I think 15/5 has been readable for a while now, except noone wants to release either hd or sd in those sized-disks.

The 5/30 (more likely) or 9/15 (unlikely) seem to be possible options, but what you really want is 9/30 (ie : 4 layers, 2 red, 2 blue) to handle the DVD and hdm requirements.

15/5 has been around since Freedom Vol. 1 was released. Actually 15/5 could work very well for shorter movies like animated children's movies <100 mins long.
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post #141 of 192 Old 10-05-2007, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by blainehamilton View Post

I'll take region protection on future discs released if it brings Disney and Fox on board. That's a possibility. Doesn't negate the fact all current titles available can be played on any player in the world.

The one advantage of HD-DVD over Blu-ray is region coding.. if they implement it support will drop like a stone.

Daniel.
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post #142 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 12:45 AM
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Since Alexander fitted on a BD25

that would give a movie the about the same type of look/PQ/grain etc

214min / 25 * 15 = 128min wich makes the ABR about 15 (Video and Audio)
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post #143 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

1) Regional coding sucks. But guess what? For some studios, that's their choice. And if that and/or copy protection are stopping them from producing HD DVD's, then why continue to stop them? I say there is NOTHING wrong with OPTIONAL region coding/protection. Not everyone has to use it, and it appears it would only be used in special cases anyway like New Line new releases, or the everr-sought-after Disney movies. Let the studios decide how they put out their movies, then you decide to support them or not based on whether they include the features you want or not. Why section studios out because they want region coding and you don't?

Before I get really angry... where do you live? USA? Well no wonder you don't mind. Try and think about the rest of the world who gets screwed with high disk prices by region coding. There is no doubt they'll use it if its optional.

Daniel.
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post #144 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 05:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Borvio View Post

Wait, wait, wait, but in scanning through these pages it seems like that we're looking at a new revision of the HD DVD format? Since somehow the equipment will not be compatible with the new TL51 spec? Now, are you all certain they are not talking about the versions of firmware? I see 1.9 and 2.0 thrown around a lot without much certainty of what they mean.

Maybe the 2.0 firmware update will enable TL51 discs to be read.

The rev. 1.9 and 2.0 have nothing to do with firmware upgrades. They are the revisions to the specifications of the TL 51 itself.

I believe the original TL45 was listed as rev. 1.0.
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post #145 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

1) Regional coding sucks. But guess what? For some studios, that's their choice. And if that and/or copy protection are stopping them from producing HD DVD's, then why continue to stop them? I say there is NOTHING wrong with OPTIONAL region coding/protection. Not everyone has to use it, and it appears it would only be used in special cases anyway like New Line new releases, or the everr-sought-after Disney movies. Let the studios decide how they put out their movies, then you decide to support them or not based on whether they include the features you want or not. Why section studios out because they want region coding and you don't?

I don't want to "section studios out", but region coding does indeed royally suck.
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post #146 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rdjam View Post

A revision of the spherical aberration code does not mean that existing players cannot read this.

Nice try, though.

I think the BD bunch are trying very hard to turn this meeting into some proof that HD DVD is "doomed yet again"

I agree, well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamwisetheBrave View Post

It is the disc, not the player that is region coded, I believe.

I think both are, because then how would the player know to reject some regions and accept others? If HD DVD did do RC, existing players that we currently have now would basically become Region 0/Regionless; meaning we could play movies from any region because the player would not seek a specific region on the discs. All new hardware going forward would be coded for Region A (assuming the ABC system is adopted) and the discs would be Region A, which Region 0 players (Gens 1-3) could play because there is no region encoding in the hardware. A Region A player could only play A HD DVD's. I hope that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numanoid101 View Post

+1

Yeah great post. I emailed a friend of mine who is Japanese to translate for me, I am just curious for my own records.
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post #147 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by snaggs View Post

Before I get really angry... where do you live? USA? Well no wonder you don't mind. Try and think about the rest of the world who gets screwed with high disk prices by region coding. There is no doubt they'll use it if its optional.

Daniel.

Hey man, it is what it is. Region coding is now affecting releases, and that sucks too.

And region coding may be a reason Disney isn't on board.

So why don't YOU try and think about US sometimes, who are having to wait until "sometime in 2008" to get a couple of movies, and who have to import Buena Vista movies from your side of the world for more money.
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post #148 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L. View Post

Could you translate texts on these slides to make your point better supported?


Nobody else seems to have stepped up with translations, so here's my attempt, using Jquicktrans radical search to find all the kanji, then comparing their base meanings to what babel gives, and attempting to do-engrish it as much as possible.

Working on the others... painfully slow, because I never did get around to completing Japanese language course, so I know enough to brute force translate by hand but soooo slow. Also no guarantee this is 100% accurate, of course

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post #149 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.L. View Post




From this, it's obvious reflectivity on the 2nd and 3rd layers goes down on a triple layer, however it is specified that the first (SD DVD) layer keep the same requirements. The specific red and blue laser requirements are listed to specify that the reflectivity requirements to each wavelength laser.

I don't see why, with modern technology, we can't make do with a 6-12% reflectivity, as long as we are sensitive enough to pick that up and amplify it without injecting too much noise, with modern error correction I'm sure it'll work out in the end.

The asterisked comment is how I interpret this. Maybe it's just red laser and blue laser, but either way it's equivalent for our purposes. I don't feel like wasting time making that clear since either way works
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post #150 of 192 Old 10-06-2007, 06:07 PM
 
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This is great!

Can you please translate some of the other slides that we were discussing like the "family of HD DVD" slide.

Thank you for your efforts.
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